Books Outside the Bible

[BobRyan]

Do you know the history of "bible possession banned by the Catholic Church"?
Mary

It already sounds bad...
============================================= from
Bible possession once banned by the Catholic Church!

ITEM #1 POPE INNOCENT III

Pope Innocent III stated in 1199:

... "to be reproved are those who translate into French the Gospels, the letters of Paul, the psalter, etc. They are moved by a certain love of Scripture in order to explain them clandestinely and to preach them to one another. The mysteries of the faith are not to explained rashly to anyone. Usually in fact, they cannot be understood by everyone but only by those who are qualified to understand them with informed intelligence. The depth of the divine Scriptures is such that not only the illiterate and uninitiated have difficulty understanding them, but also the educated and the gifted" (Denzinger-Schönmetzer, Enchiridion Symbolorum 770-771)

Source: Bridging the Gap - Lectio Divina, Religious Education, and the Have-not's by Father John Belmonte, S.J.

ITEM #2 COUNCIL OF TOULOUSE - 1229 A.D.

The Council of Toulouse, which met in November of 1229, about the time of the crusade against the Albigensians, set up a special ecclesiastical tribunal, or court, known as the Inquisition (Lat. inquisitio, an inquiry), to search out and try heretics. Twenty of the forty-five articles decreed by the Council dealt with heretics and heresy. It ruled in part:

"Canon 1. We appoint, therefore, that the archbishops and bishops shall swear in one priest, and two or three laymen of good report, or more if they think fit, in every parish, both in and out of cities, who shall diligently, faithfully, and frequently seek out the heretics in those parishes, by searching all houses and subterranean chambers which lie under suspicion. And looking out for appendages or outbuildings, in the roofs themselves, or any other kind of hiding places, all which we direct to be destroyed."

Canon 6. Directs that the house in which any heretic shall be found shall be destroyed.

"Canon 14. We prohibit also that the laity should be permitted to have the books of the Old or New Testament; unless anyone from motive of devotion should wish to have the Psalter or the Breviary for divine offices or the hours of the blessed Virgin; but we most strictly forbid their having any translation of these books."

Source: Heresy and Authority in Medieval Europe, Edited with an introduction by Edward Peters, Scolar Press, London, copyright 1980 by Edward Peters, ISBN 0-85967-621-8, pp. 194-195, citing S. R. Maitland, Facts and Documents [illustrative of the history, doctrine and rites, of the ancient Albigenses & Waldenses], London, Rivington, 1832, pp. 192-194.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Now you're arguing maybes.

And dodging completely where it says Joseph had sex with Mary after the birth of Jesus. Cannot
get around that one.

WRONG.

This has nothing to do with “maybes”. It has to do with properly dividing and understanding the Word of God in its proper spiritual, historical and linguistic context.

As for the Bible stating that Joseph “had sex” with Mary – that is an erroneous perversion of the text.
You’re probably thinking of Matt. 1:25, where is says:

“ but kept her a virgin UNTIL she gave birth to a Son; and he called His name Jesus.

Did Mary have other children after Jesus? As we have examined – the Bible does NOT support this idea. Let’s see what the Scriptures say about the use of the word, “until”.

2 Samuel 6:23 tells us: Therefore Michal the daughter of Saul had no child UNTIL the day of her death.
Are we to assume that Michal had children after she died?

Let’s also examine Acts 2:34-35 (also see Psalm 110:1, Matt 22:44): For David did not go up into heaven, but he himself said: 'The Lord said to my Lord, "Sit at my right hand UNTIL I make your enemies your footstool."'

Are we to surmise that Jesus will cease to sit at the right hand of the Father after his enemies are made his footstool? The problem here is that you anti-Catholics attempt to apply 21st century English to Hebrew and Greek from a culture thousands of years ago.

ONE more time:
Show me ONE verse that states MARY had other children . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

I have but you won't listen. I hope and pray the good Lord give you wisdom and opens your spiritual eyes to the true Gospel.

To God Be The Glory

No - you hastily pasted a bunch of verses out of context.
That's not "proving" anything - except your own confusion . . .

 

[Marymog]

It already sounds bad...
============================================= from
Bible possession once banned by the Catholic Church!

ITEM #1 POPE INNOCENT III

Pope Innocent III stated in 1199:

... "to be reproved are those who translate into French the Gospels, the letters of Paul, the psalter, etc. They are moved by a certain love of Scripture in order to explain them clandestinely and to preach them to one another. The mysteries of the faith are not to explained rashly to anyone. Usually in fact, they cannot be understood by everyone but only by those who are qualified to understand them with informed intelligence. The depth of the divine Scriptures is such that not only the illiterate and uninitiated have difficulty understanding them, but also the educated and the gifted" (Denzinger-Schönmetzer, Enchiridion Symbolorum 770-771)

Source: Bridging the Gap - Lectio Divina, Religious Education, and the Have-not's by Father John Belmonte, S.J.

ITEM #2 COUNCIL OF TOULOUSE - 1229 A.D.

The Council of Toulouse, which met in November of 1229, about the time of the crusade against the Albigensians, set up a special ecclesiastical tribunal, or court, known as the Inquisition (Lat. inquisitio, an inquiry), to search out and try heretics. Twenty of the forty-five articles decreed by the Council dealt with heretics and heresy. It ruled in part:

"Canon 1. We appoint, therefore, that the archbishops and bishops shall swear in one priest, and two or three laymen of good report, or more if they think fit, in every parish, both in and out of cities, who shall diligently, faithfully, and frequently seek out the heretics in those parishes, by searching all houses and subterranean chambers which lie under suspicion. And looking out for appendages or outbuildings, in the roofs themselves, or any other kind of hiding places, all which we direct to be destroyed."

Canon 6. Directs that the house in which any heretic shall be found shall be destroyed.

"Canon 14. We prohibit also that the laity should be permitted to have the books of the Old or New Testament; unless anyone from motive of devotion should wish to have the Psalter or the Breviary for divine offices or the hours of the blessed Virgin; but we most strictly forbid their having any translation of these books."

Source: Heresy and Authority in Medieval Europe, Edited with an introduction by Edward Peters, Scolar Press, London, copyright 1980 by Edward Peters, ISBN 0-85967-621-8, pp. 194-195, citing S. R. Maitland, Facts and Documents [illustrative of the history, doctrine and rites, of the ancient Albigenses & Waldenses], London, Rivington, 1832, pp. 192-194.

Hi Bob.

Do you know the history behind why The Church was "banning possession of the bible"? @CoreIssue hasn't been able to figure it out yet.

Good luck!

Curious Mary

 

[BreadOfLife]

It already sounds bad...
============================================= from
Bible possession once banned by the Catholic Church!

ITEM #1 POPE INNOCENT III

Pope Innocent III stated in 1199:

... "to be reproved are those who translate into French the Gospels, the letters of Paul, the psalter, etc. They are moved by a certain love of Scripture in order to explain them clandestinely and to preach them to one another. The mysteries of the faith are not to explained rashly to anyone. Usually in fact, they cannot be understood by everyone but only by those who are qualified to understand them with informed intelligence. The depth of the divine Scriptures is such that not only the illiterate and uninitiated have difficulty understanding them, but also the educated and the gifted" (Denzinger-Schönmetzer, Enchiridion Symbolorum 770-771)

Source: Bridging the Gap - Lectio Divina, Religious Education, and the Have-not's by Father John Belmonte, S.J.

ITEM #2 COUNCIL OF TOULOUSE - 1229 A.D.

The Council of Toulouse, which met in November of 1229, about the time of the crusade against the Albigensians, set up a special ecclesiastical tribunal, or court, known as the Inquisition (Lat. inquisitio, an inquiry), to search out and try heretics. Twenty of the forty-five articles decreed by the Council dealt with heretics and heresy. It ruled in part:

"Canon 1. We appoint, therefore, that the archbishops and bishops shall swear in one priest, and two or three laymen of good report, or more if they think fit, in every parish, both in and out of cities, who shall diligently, faithfully, and frequently seek out the heretics in those parishes, by searching all houses and subterranean chambers which lie under suspicion. And looking out for appendages or outbuildings, in the roofs themselves, or any other kind of hiding places, all which we direct to be destroyed."

Canon 6. Directs that the house in which any heretic shall be found shall be destroyed.

"Canon 14. We prohibit also that the laity should be permitted to have the books of the Old or New Testament; unless anyone from motive of devotion should wish to have the Psalter or the Breviary for divine offices or the hours of the blessed Virgin; but we most strictly forbid their having any translation of these books."

Source: Heresy and Authority in Medieval Europe, Edited with an introduction by Edward Peters, Scolar Press, London, copyright 1980 by Edward Peters, ISBN 0-85967-621-8, pp. 194-195, citing S. R. Maitland, Facts and Documents [illustrative of the history, doctrine and rites, of the ancient Albigenses & Waldenses], London, Rivington, 1832, pp. 192-194.

Sooooooo, tell me - HOW many people owned Bibles back then??
Better yet – can you tell me HOW many people were even able to READ a Bible back then??

You see – this is yet another example of anti-Catholic ignorance in it’s saddest form. You guys are completely devoid of ANY historical knowledge and try to apply 21st century logic to a 12th century problem. Time for a little history lesson . . .

First of all – it is estimated that about 85% of the population was functionally ILLITERATE and had absolutely ZERO use for a Bible. They heard the Word of God preached at EVERY mass and through their clergy.

Secondly – Bibles were extremely expensive and difficult to come by prior to the invention of the printing press in the 15 century because they were HANDWRITTEN and took YEARS to complete.

Thirdly – because some wealthy, educated people were able to get their hands on Bibles in rare instances – they took to making their OWN copies – and EDITING them at their own pleasure. There were spurious copies being passed around and perverse doctrines began to surface.

Finally – this is why Bibles were CHAINED to pulpits ion the Middle Ages – because they were objects of THEFT.

This anti-Catholic fairy tale that Pope Innocent or the Council of Toulouse tried to keep the Word of God "out" of the hands of the general public is as asinine and historically-bankrupt as anybody who goes around passing if off as the “truth”.

Do your HOMEWORK . . .

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Hello Mrs. Mog, how are you?
I see you are still struggling to express yourself to others.
Keep trying, you'll get there.
Love, your favorite, Rollo...

Mary, I was in this in the beginning but dropped out because it became catholics vs. protestants.
I though by now you'd be talking to each other with more openess for the sake of the community in general.

 

[Marymog]

Mary, I was in this in the beginning but dropped out because it became catholics vs. protestants.
I though by now you'd be talking to each other with more openess for the sake of the community in general.

Writing to yourself now are you???

Soooo why did you jump into the fray for one post? Just to poke me in my eye?

It seems you are bowing out. Don't blame ya'. I ask easy questions that are tough to answer. I recall from past conversations you are not up to the challenge.

Maybe next time?

Mary

 

[Marymog]

Mary, I was in this in the beginning but dropped out because it became catholics vs. protestants.
I though by now you'd be talking to each other with more openess for the sake of the community in general.

LOL....I looked at your previous post in this thread.

You never really said anything significant. You just like to poke at people and then run. Is that your M.O. on all forums?

I'm on to you now Rollo Tamasi. I've got only one good eye Rollo, and it's on YOU.....

You won't be tricking this old girl again.

Mary

 

[BreadOfLife]

Mary, I was in this in the beginning but dropped out because it became catholics vs. protestants.
I though by now you'd be talking to each other with more openess for the sake of the community in general.

Not as long as the same anti-Catholic lies are being regurgitated . . .

 

[CoreIssue]

WRONG.

This has nothing to do with “maybes”. It has to do with properly dividing and understanding the Word of God in its proper spiritual, historical and linguistic context.

As for the Bible stating that Joseph “had sex” with Mary – that is an erroneous perversion of the text.
You’re probably thinking of Matt. 1:25, where is says:

“ but kept her a virgin UNTIL she gave birth to a Son; and he called His name Jesus.

Did Mary have other children after Jesus? As we have examined – the Bible does NOT support this idea. Let’s see what the Scriptures say about the use of the word, “until”.

2 Samuel 6:23 tells us: Therefore Michal the daughter of Saul had no child UNTIL the day of her death.
Are we to assume that Michal had children after she died?

Let’s also examine Acts 2:34-35 (also see Psalm 110:1, Matt 22:44): For David did not go up into heaven, but he himself said: 'The Lord said to my Lord, "Sit at my right hand UNTIL I make your enemies your footstool."'

Are we to surmise that Jesus will cease to sit at the right hand of the Father after his enemies are made his footstool? The problem here is that you anti-Catholics attempt to apply 21st century English to Hebrew and Greek from a culture thousands of years ago.

ONE more time:
Show me ONE verse that states MARY had other children . . .

Matthew 1:25 but kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and he called His name Jesus.

Look at all the versions in this list. They all say the same thing. After the birth of Jesus he had sex with Mary.

You've already been shown she have four other children and she was not an eternal virgin.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Not as long as the same anti-Catholic lies are being regurgitated . . .

Well, well, well, Mary's alter-ego has shown up.
Hey Breadman, you don't know the truth because it's hit you in the face so many times and you don't recognize it.
same ol same ol, that's you Breadman
Okay Mary, now you can step in for him

 

[Willie T]

WRONG.

This has nothing to do with “maybes”. It has to do with properly dividing and understanding the Word of God in its proper spiritual, historical and linguistic context.

As for the Bible stating that Joseph “had sex” with Mary – that is an erroneous perversion of the text.
You’re probably thinking of Matt. 1:25, where is says:

“ but kept her a virgin UNTIL she gave birth to a Son; and he called His name Jesus.

Did Mary have other children after Jesus? As we have examined – the Bible does NOT support this idea. Let’s see what the Scriptures say about the use of the word, “until”.

2 Samuel 6:23 tells us: Therefore Michal the daughter of Saul had no child UNTIL the day of her death.
Are we to assume that Michal had children after she died?

Let’s also examine Acts 2:34-35 (also see Psalm 110:1, Matt 22:44): For David did not go up into heaven, but he himself said: 'The Lord said to my Lord, "Sit at my right hand UNTIL I make your enemies your footstool."'

Are we to surmise that Jesus will cease to sit at the right hand of the Father after his enemies are made his footstool? The problem here is that you anti-Catholics attempt to apply 21st century English to Hebrew and Greek from a culture thousands of years ago.

ONE more time:
Show me ONE verse that states MARY had other children . . .

And you actually swallow nonsensical double-speak like this when the Church feeds it to you?

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Sooooooo, tell me - HOW many people owned Bibles back then??
Better yet – can you tell me HOW many people were even able to READ a Bible back then??

You see – this is yet another example of anti-Catholic ignorance in it’s saddest form. You guys are completely devoid of ANY historical knowledge and try to apply 21st century logic to a 12th century problem. Time for a little history lesson . . .

First of all – it is estimated that about 85% of the population was functionally ILLITERATE and had absolutely ZERO use for a Bible. They heard the Word of God preached at EVERY mass and through their clergy.

Secondly – Bibles were extremely expensive and difficult to come by prior to the invention of the printing press in the 15 century because they were HANDWRITTEN and took YEARS to complete.

Thirdly – because some wealthy, educated people were able to get their hands on Bibles in rare instances – they took to making their OWN copies – and EDITING them at their own pleasure. There were spurious copies being passed around and perverse doctrines began to surface.

Finally – this is why Bibles were CHAINED to pulpits ion the Middle Ages – because they were objects of THEFT.

This anti-Catholic fairy tale that Pope Innocent or the Council of Toulouse tried to keep the Word of God "out" of the hands of the general public is as asinine and historically-bankrupt as anybody who goes around passing if off as the “truth”.

Do your HOMEWORK . . .

Breadman!
You actually believe this stuff?
Breadman!! Really now!!!

 

[Frank Lee]

It's been said if Mary were alive she'd be the one to clean house from papa pope on down. How true. Are Muslims brainwashed further than many denominationalists?

I didn't think it possible but moldy bread man turned Luke 11:28 around to be a vindication of what this first catholic woman said in Luke 11:27. Amazing that Jesus was praising her and I couldn't see it.

There are none so blind as those who will not see.

John 9:40-41 KJVS
And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also?
[41] Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

I feel for the spiritually blind but can't give them eyes. Better that they were as Amos just a clean slate.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Matthew 1:25 but kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and he called His name Jesus.

Look at all the versions in this list. They all say the same thing. After the birth of Jesus he had sex with Mary.

You've already been shown she have four other children and she was not an eternal virgin.

And you actually swallow nonsensical double-speak like this when the Church feeds it to you?

No “double-speak” at all.
I challenged CoreIssue to show me ONE verse that shows MARY had other children – and he FAILED.
All he could do was to bring up Matt. 1:25 by showing the word “until”. I obliteratedthat argument using nothing but Scriptureby showing how this word is NOT always used to determine that something happened AFTER the fact.

Did Michal have children AFTER she died??
NOPE.

Does Jesus CEASE sitting at the Father’s right hand AFTER His enemies are His footstool??
NOPE.

Did Joseph know Mary in the sexual sense AFTER he brought her into his home??
NOPE.

I ALSO showed that the children named as His “Adelphoi” are some other relation because they are later named as the children of Mary’s “Adelphe”who was with her at the foot of the cross.

Don’t blame ME if YOU guys don’t have any evidence . . .

 

[Willie T]

No “double-speak” at all.
I challenged CoreIssue to show me ONE verse that shows MARY had other children – and he FAILED.
All he could do was to bring up Matt. 1:25 by showing the word “until”. I obliteratedthat argument using nothing but Scriptureby showing how this word is NOT always used to determine that something happened AFTER the fact.

Did Michal have children AFTER she died??
NOPE.

Does Jesus CEASE sitting at the Father’s right hand AFTER His enemies are His footstool??
NOPE.

Did Joseph know Mary in the sexual sense AFTER he brought her into his home??
NOPE.

I ALSO showed that the children named as His “Adelphoi” are some other relation because they are later named as the children of Mary’s “Adelphe”who was with her at the foot of the cross.

Don’t blame ME if YOU guys don’t have any evidence . . .

I think we all know that throughout the Bible, an unconsummated Jewish marriage was considered shameful.

 

[BobRyan]

Hi Bob.

Do you know the history behind why The Church was "banning possession of the bible"? @CoreIssue hasn't been able to figure it out yet.

hmm let's see how they could have gotten spun around to do such a horrific thing

Do you know the history of "bible possession banned by the Catholic Church"?
Mary

It already sounds bad...
============================================= from
Bible possession once banned by the Catholic Church!

ITEM #1 POPE INNOCENT III

Pope Innocent III stated in 1199:

... "to be reproved are those who translate into French the Gospels, the letters of Paul, the psalter, etc. They are moved by a certain love of Scripture in order to explain them clandestinely and to preach them to one another. The mysteries of the faith are not to explained rashly to anyone. Usually in fact, they cannot be understood by everyone but only by those who are qualified to understand them with informed intelligence. The depth of the divine Scriptures is such that not only the illiterate and uninitiated have difficulty understanding them, but also the educated and the gifted" (Denzinger-Schönmetzer, Enchiridion Symbolorum 770-771)

Source: Bridging the Gap - Lectio Divina, Religious Education, and the Have-not's by Father John Belmonte, S.J.

ITEM #2 COUNCIL OF TOULOUSE - 1229 A.D.

The Council of Toulouse, which met in November of 1229, about the time of the crusade against the Albigensians, set up a special ecclesiastical tribunal, or court, known as the Inquisition (Lat. inquisitio, an inquiry), to search out and try heretics. Twenty of the forty-five articles decreed by the Council dealt with heretics and heresy. It ruled in part:

"Canon 1. We appoint, therefore, that the archbishops and bishops shall swear in one priest, and two or three laymen of good report, or more if they think fit, in every parish, both in and out of cities, who shall diligently, faithfully, and frequently seek out the heretics in those parishes, by searching all houses and subterranean chambers which lie under suspicion. And looking out for appendages or outbuildings, in the roofs themselves, or any other kind of hiding places, all which we direct to be destroyed."

Canon 6. Directs that the house in which any heretic shall be found shall be destroyed.

"Canon 14. We prohibit also that the laity should be permitted to have the books of the Old or New Testament; unless anyone from motive of devotion should wish to have the Psalter or the Breviary for divine offices or the hours of the blessed Virgin; but we most strictly forbid their having any translation of these books."

Source: Heresy and Authority in Medieval Europe, Edited with an introduction by Edward Peters, Scolar Press, London, copyright 1980 by Edward Peters, ISBN 0-85967-621-8, pp. 194-195, citing S. R. Maitland, Facts and Documents [illustrative of the history, doctrine and rites, of the ancient Albigenses & Waldenses], London, Rivington, 1832, pp. 192-194.
==========================

Yep pretty horrific. No wonder Pope Francis apologized to the Waldenses last year.

 

[BobRyan]

I ask easy questions that are tough to answer.

You keep asking questions about why the RCC did horrific things in the dark ages - "as if" we are supposed to find some excuse for them doing it. And you do this as if it somehow helps your point.

Very curious.

 

[BobRyan]

List of authors and works on the Index Librorum Prohibitorum (in addition to the Bible printed in your native language)


Noteworthy intellectual figures on the Index include Simone de Beauvoir, Nicolas Malebranche, Jean-Paul Sartre, Michel de Montaigne, Denis Diderot, Victor Hugo, Jean-Jacques Rousseau, André Gide, Nikos Kazantzakis, Emanuel Swedenborg, Baruch Spinoza, Immanuel Kant, David Hume, René Descartes, Francis Bacon, Thomas Browne, John Milton, John Locke, Nicolaus Copernicus, Galileo Galilei, Blaise Pascal and Hugo Grotius.

The first woman to be placed on the list was Magdalena Haymairus in 1569, who was listed for her children's book Die sontegliche Episteln über das gantze Jar in gesangsweis gestellt ('Sunday Epistles on the whole Year, put to the test’.)[59][60][61][62] Other women to be listed include Anne Askew,[63] Olympia Fulvia Morata, Ursula of Munsterberg (1491–1534), Veronica Franco, and Paola Antonia Negri (1508–1555).[64]

Charles Darwin's works were never included.[65]

In many cases, an author's opera omnia (his complete works) were forbidden. Most of these were inserted in the Index at a time when the Index itself stated that the prohibition of someone's opera omnia did not cover works whose contents did not concern religion and were not forbidden by the general rules of the Index, but this explanation was omitted in the 1929 edition, an omission that was officially interpreted in 1940 as meaning that thenceforth "opera omnia" covered all the author's works without exception.[66]

Cardinal Ottaviani stated in April 1966 there was too much contemporary literature and the Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith could not keep up with it.[67]

 

[Jun2u]

No - you hastily pasted a bunch of verses out of context.
That's not "proving" anything - except your own confusion... .

If you don't want to listen to those that share the true Gospel with you, so be it. I will still hope and pray for the Lord to give you wisdom and open your spiritual eyes to the true Gospel.

To God Be The Glory