Born again : = Not under the LAW

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Behold

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Reader,

You can only "sin" if you are "under the Law" as its the Law that defines the deed as a "sin".

So, "where there is no Law, there is no sin (transgression).".

Which means that for the born again...who are "not under the Law, but under Grace"... the born again will never again be defined by the Law as a "sinner".

See,

"Christ is the END of the LAW....for righteousness, to everyone who believes",.. .and that means that all who did, are born again, as "the righteousness of God, in Christ" and there is no sin found there.

Notice : "The law came by Moses... but GRACE and Truth came by Jesus The Christ".

READER.....
Im not showing you that you can't lie, cheat, steal, ..........anymore.
What im showing you is....

= " Where there is NO LAW, there is no Transgression"....and that means, when the Law is removed....= when it has no dominion over you, then it can't define your deeds, at all.....EVER AGAIN.

"Christ has redeemed us from the CURSE of the Law"..

What is that Curse?

Its that the Law DEFINES you as a sinner... and Christ's Sacrifice on the Cross has removed the Law's dominion from the born again, so that the Law can no longer define the born again, at all..

The born again are ::: """ NOT under the law.....but under Grace"...

Grace always defines the born again as "made righteous".... "in Christ"....."One with God".

This is a part of the Eternal FRUIT regarding the : "Gift of Salvation"
 

FaithWillDo

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Reader,

You can only "sin" if you are "under the Law" as its the Law that defines the deed as a "sin".

So, "where there is no Law, there is no sin (transgression).".

Which means that for the born again...who are "not under the Law, but under Grace"... the born again will never again be defined by the Law as a "sinner".

See,

"Christ is the END of the LAW....for righteousness, to everyone who believes",.. .and that means that all who did, are born again, as "the righteousness of God, in Christ" and there is no sin found there.

Notice : "The law came by Moses... but GRACE and Truth came by Jesus The Christ".

READER.....
Im not showing you that you can't lie, cheat, steal, ..........anymore.
What im showing you is....

= " Where there is NO LAW, there is no Transgression"....and that means, when the Law is removed....= when it has no dominion over you, then it can't define your deeds, at all.....EVER AGAIN.

"Christ has redeemed us from the CURSE of the Law"..

What is that Curse?

Its that the Law DEFINES you as a sinner... and Christ's Sacrifice on the Cross has removed the Law's dominion from the born again, so that the Law can no longer define the born again, at all..

The born again are ::: """ NOT under the law.....but under Grace"...

Grace always defines the born again as "made righteous".... "in Christ"....."One with God".

This is a part of the Eternal FRUIT regarding the : "Gift of Salvation"
Dear Behold,
Yes, a converted believer is no longer under the Law and never will be again. But there is one sin that a new believer can commit that will cause them to lose their salvation. When a believer commits this sin, they will "fall away" from grace and return to being under the Law.

John mentions it here:

1John 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

Paul said it this way:

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Here is what Paul describes as the "sin unto death":

Gal 5:3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. 4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

The New Covenant is described as "Grace through Faith". Faith is the key to receiving Grace and it is called the "straight way". That is why when John the Baptist came with His call of repentance, He did so to make the pathway straight for Christ to come to the Jewish Elect who were walking by "works" (the crooked way).

The crooked way is to approach Christ by our own "works". The foundational belief for "works" is taught by Satan in his Doctrine of Free Will. When a believer follows the crooked way, they are nullifying the perfect sacrifice which Christ made on the cross.

The crooked way is the what Satan teaches in His "another gospel". For that reason, God's Word calls Satan the "crooked" serpent. When a new believer is deceived by Satan and begins following his crooked way, they will fall from grace. This is how Satan kills the saints. It is a spiritual death and is mentioned in the verses below:

Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.


Christ mentions it here:

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Christ also teaches it here:

Mat 12:43 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none. 44 Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished. 45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself SEVEN other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.

The "seven" unclean spirits which return with the first spirit is a symbol for the spirit of anti-Christ. That spirit represents Satan's ultimate and perfect deception. It is by this spirit that Satan devoured the church shortly after Paul's death. That spirit is so deceiving to a believer, that Christ even said this about it:

Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

The only reason that the very Elect (the Apostles) were not deceived by the spirit of anti-Christ is because they were converted prior to the spirit coming into the world. However, for the believers who have entered the church after it came, they were utterly deceived by it just as Christ explained in Mat 12:43-45. Since the end of the 1st Century A.D, none of the flock has been spared.

So when will a believer fall away from grace?

It happens after they are called out from the world and have received the earnest of the Spirit. This is called the Holy Spirit of Promise in Eph 1:13-14) and it is called the Early Rain in James 5:7-8.

Most believers have no understanding of the Early Rain because it is part of the great mystery of Christ and His church (Eph 5:32).

I'll explain the Early Rain and Latter Rain below.

When Christ first comes to a person to call them out from the world, He will give them the Early Rain of the Spirit. However, this is only a down payment of the full amount that will be given to them later (if they are one of the Elect).

The time a new believer spends after they have received the Early Rain on up until they receive the Latter Rain is called a time of great tribulation (Mat 24:21). That time period is also "typed" by Elijah's 3 1/2 years of drought and Daniel's last 3 1/2 years of his 70 weeks prophecy. A new believer will experience that time of drought because they remain "spiritually blind" after they received the Early Rain. During that time period, a new believer can hear the voice of Christ but they cannot "see" (understand) Him.

Because the new believer remains spiritually blind, they will remain carnally minded and will only understand Christ (God's Word) in a carnal way. A good example of this carnal way of understanding scripture is how the church understands Matthew chapter 24. The church understands it as teaching on a future visible return of Christ at the literal end of this age. However, the spiritual way of understanding it teaches that it is presenting the spiritual pathway to salvation that each of the Elect will travel. The pathway ends when Christ returns to an Elect believer with the Latter Rain and gathers them to heaven (spiritually speaking).

Because a new believer remains spiritual blind, Satan has no trouble in deceiving them with his "another gospel". After they accept his gospel of "works", they will fall away and become a part of the apostate church. It has happened to all new believers since the 1st century and that is why the churches in the world are all apostate (all approx. 2,000 different denominations and sects).

Because all the Elect are "killed" by Satan after they are "called out", Christ will send a person to His fallen away Elect with a call of repentance. Christ will then cause His Elect to repent of their "works". Their repentance will make Christ's pathway straight for Him to come to them a second time with the Latter Rain. The Latter Rain is also called the baptism of the Holy Spirit and is what the Apostles received on the Day of Pentecost. After the Elect receive the Latter Rain, Christ will heal their spiritual blindness and they will "see" the Abomination of Desolation that occurred within themselves. The man of sin will also be revealed to them and they will find that they are the man of sin. After this occurs, Christ says to "look up":

Luke 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

After Christ pours out the Latter Rain and spiritually gathers the believer (now a child of God) to heaven, judgment will fall on the Man of Sin (spirit of anti-Christ) and the Great Harlot (worsened carnal nature of the believer). After they are destroyed, the believer will be converted. After a believer is converted, it is not possible for them to ever fall away again. Their salvation is secured.

Joe
 

Behold

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Dear Behold,
Yes, a converted believer is no longer under the Law and never will be again.

Correct.

The born again are "not under the Law, but under Grace" for as long as God continues to live.

"ETERNAL life', is not temporary, and all the born again have Eternal Life.
 
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FaithWillDo

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Correct.

The born again are "not under the Law, but under Grace" for as long as God continues to live.

"ETERNAL life', is not temporary, and all the born again have Eternal Life.
Dear Behold,
A person is not "born again" until they are converted. It is at that point that they permanently come out from being under the Law.

To be converted, a person must receive both the Early and Latter Rain, followed by the judgment of Christ.

Conversion does NOT happen to a person after they have only been given the Early Rain of the Spirit and have entered the church.

John 8:3-10 is where Christ taught that truth in "type". The "type" is commonly called the story of the woman taken in adultery.

In the "type" presented by the story, Christ uses the marriage analogy to teach His message.

In the story, the "woman" represents Christ's Elect who will become the Bride of Christ.

The story begins with the woman being caught in the act of adultery:

John 8:3 And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst, 4 They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act. 5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?

This event looks back to the time when Adam & Eve were caught in the act of adultery with Satan in the Garden of Eden. When Adam and Eve sinned, they were judged by the Law and were given the penalty of death (both spiritual and physical). Their sin resulted in them being forsaken by their husband (Christ):

Isa 54:5 For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called. 6 For the LORD hath called thee as a woman forsaken and grieved in spirit, and a wife of youth, when thou wast refused, saith thy God. 7 For a small moment have I forsaken thee; but with GREAT MERCIES will I gather thee.

The story continues by showing the spiritual process that Christ is going to take the woman through which will result in the restoration of her marriage relationship with Christ. That spiritual process is the New Covenant of Grace through Faith.

John 8:6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.

Christ’s act of writing in the ground represents the Early Rain of the Spirit when Christ begins the spiritual process of restoring His wife. By writing in the ground, Christ is writing His Law of the Spirit in her heart.

This verse applies:

Jer 31:33 But this shall be the COVENANT that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

The verse above is referring to the New Covenant of Grace through Faith (His "great mercies"). Under the New Covenant, Christ will perform all the necessary “works” to restore the woman to Himself. And since it is a spiritual covenant, He will write his Law of the Spirit in the heart of the woman.

John 8:7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

After Christ first writes in the earth (represents the woman's carnal heart), the Pharisees continue to accuse the woman. They do this because the woman still remains under the Law after having received the Early Rain of the Spirit. She remains under the Law because the Early Rain is not sufficient to stop her from committing adultery with Satan. In other words, she does not yet have the ability to approach Christ strictly by faith alone. She is still compelled by her carnal nature and the deceptions of Satan to mix in her own “works” with faith. She tries to serve two masters, both Satan and Christ (Mat 6:24).

By continuing in her adultery, she falls away from faith after having received the Early Rain and remains under the Law. For this reason, the Pharisees do NOT drop their stones but continue to accuse her. The "stones" represent the Law.

John 8:8 And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground. 9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst. 10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?

In verse 8, Christ stoops down a second time and writes His Law of the Spirit in the heart of the woman again. This act represents the second coming of Christ when He comes and pours out the Latter Rain of the Spirit upon the woman.

It is at this point that Christ heals the woman’s spiritual blindness (taught in Mark 8:21-25) and she comes out from Satan’s deceptions. At that time, the woman (the Elect) begins to walk by faith alone. This change leads to her conversion and her restored marriage relationship with Christ. As a result, the Law can no longer accuse her. After this change from the Old Covenant of Law to the New Covenant of Grace through Faith, the Pharisees drop their stones and leave.

Joe
 

FaithWillDo

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The conversion experience, is to be born again.
This is the "new Birth", = to become a "new Creation in Christ".
Dear Behold,
That's what I said. The "old vessel" is destroyed by judgment and the new vessel is created.

Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.

After the spiritual change is complete within a person, they are born again/converted.

Another way to say it is the child of the devil is destroyed and the child of God is born. Conversion requires destruction of the old and the birth of the new.

That is why John the Baptist said:


Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit, and with Fire.

Everyone who is saved must be baptized by the Holy Spirit and with Fire (judgment). It's not one or the other, it's both.

Also, Christ said it this way:

Mat 26:52 Then said Jesus unto him, put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

The Sword is the symbol for the Word of God. A person takes up the Sword when they receive the Early Rain. They perish with the Sword after they receive the Latter Rain and judgment falls on them. This is conversion.

In Matthew and Luke when Christ teaches on the pathway to salvation (the end-time of an Elect believer), He applies the story of Noah & the Ark AND the story of Lot and Sodom & Gomorrah to His teaching. Both stories are "types" for the conversion process which is what He is teaching.

In the story of Noah, the Ark represents Christ. Noah and his family (8 people) represent the Elect (the new creation, a child of God). The number 8 is a symbol for a new spiritual condition. When Noah and His family enter the Ark, they are receiving the Latter Rain. The world that is judged and destroyed represents the Man of Sin & Great Harlot (the worsened carnality of the Elect believer which was caused by the spirit of anti-Christ). After the judgment is complete, the Elect believer is converted.

In the story of Lot and Sodom & Gomorrah, Lot represents the Elect. Sodom represents Lot's worsen carnal nature (Great Harlot). Gomorrah represents the spirit of anti-Christ (the Man of Sin) which indwells Lot. After Lot receives the Latter Rain, the new child of God (Lot) will flee to the mountains to show that he is not judged. Judgment will then immediately fall on Sodom and Gomorrah until they are destroyed. After the judgment is complete, Lot is converted.

Joe
 

FaithWillDo

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What is this cult doctrine you are posting?, or rather that you are "cut and pasting". ?

The fact is, everyone who is born again has been baptized by and IN the Holy Spirit.
Dear Behold,
I personally wrote everything that I posted to you.

As for what I presented to you on the conversion process, the truth of it is taught over and over again in scripture. However, most of the time it is very hidden by the spiritual language of Christ:

1Cor 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

1Cor 2:13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

As Paul said, the truth of scripture is taught in a "mystery". It is "hidden wisdom" and is revealed only to the Elect who have been given "eyes that can see and ears that can see" (Deu 29:4).

This scripture applies:

Isa 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. 10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: 11 For with stammering lips and another language will he speak to this people. 12 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

As verse 11 says, Christ teaches His truth with "another language". In that language, Christ uses "spirit" words (John 6:63) which have meanings that are different than what man's wisdom teaches (1Cor 2:13). Most believers call the spirit words of Christ "spiritual symbols".

Christ uses His spiritual symbols in analogies, parables, "types" (actual events) and prophecies so as to keep the truth of God concealed from everyone but the Elect. And to make it even more difficult to understand, the truth is given "here a little and there a little" and "line upon line". Even with "eyes that can see", it takes a great deal of prayer and study to find the "hidden treasures" of God:

Prov 2:1 My son, if you receive my words and treasure up my commandments with you, 2 making your ear attentive to wisdom and inclining your heart to understanding; 3 yes, if you call out for insight and raise your voice for understanding, 4 if you seek it like silver and search for it as for hidden treasures, 5 then you will understand the fear of the Lord and find the knowledge of God.

As Isa 28:9-12 says, the truth of God is taught in a mystery so that "babes in Christ" cannot understand the truth of Christ.

Babes in Christ have only received the Early Rain of the Spirit (the Holy Spirit of Promise, Eph 1:13-14) and because of such, they remain spiritually blind (Mark 8:21-25). As a result, they can only understand the truth of Christ carnally. They have not yet "drawn from the breasts". And because they cannot understand the truth of God, they will "fall away and be broken, and taken and snared" by Satan. This is why all the churches the Apostles started in the 1st century A.D. quickly because apostate after their deaths.

Paul said this to the spiritually blind Corinthian church:

1Cor 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. 2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.

Since Paul taught in the same mystery (spiritual language) as Christ did, Paul's churches had great difficulty in understanding the truth. They (like all churches who are full of believers who have only received the Early Rain) were spiritually blind.

Since babes in Christ can only understand scripture "carnally", they apply its teachings "outwardly" rather than "inwardly". Such is the case with their understanding of the end-time prophecies in Luke and Matthew.

But with converted believers (those drawn from the breasts), they will apply the end-time teachings "inwardly" (spiritually) and they will also use the correct meanings of the spiritual symbols. When a believer understands the end-time prophecies in this correct way, they see that the prophecies are teaching on the spiritual events that occur "within" an Elect believer as they travel the pathway that leads to salvation.

When those end-time teachings are fulfilled for them personally, the "ends of the ages" have come upon them:

1Cor 10:11 Now all these things happened to them as types, and have been written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages are come.

What specifically is it about what I have been presenting you from scripture that you believe is a "cult doctrine"?

Joe
 

Behold

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What specifically is it about what I have been presenting you from scripture that you believe is a "cult doctrine"?

Joe

Do you have a week to read it all?

Me neither, i dont have that time to waste on this, for you.

So i'll just post one of your false teaching(s).

""". But there is one sin that a new believer can commit that will cause them to lose their salvation.'""


See that?
That is a Cross Rejecting Lie.
As ALL sin has been forgiven the Born Again., and because they are "not under the Law, but under Grace" and because "Jesus is the one time ETERNAL Sacrifice for SIN"... the Born again, is never again "in sin" or "found as having sin".
The born again is eternally "made FREE from Sin"...
There is NO SIN "in Christ" and all the born again are "in Christ". "made righteous".... = "One with God".

Why?
A.) The Blood Atonement, that is the Cross of Christ, that is the New Covenant...

= Because "God hath made Jesus to BE SIN for US" (Us is the born again). and the Born again are become "the Righteousness of God IN CHRIST".....
 

FaithWillDo

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Do you have a week to read it all?

Me neither, i dont have that time to waste on this, for you.

So i'll just post one of your false teaching(s).

""". But there is one sin that a new believer can commit that will cause them to lose their salvation.'""


See that?
That is a Cross Rejecting Lie.
As ALL sin has been forgiven the Born Again., and because they are "not under the Law, but under Grace" and because "Jesus is the one time ETERNAL Sacrifice for SIN"... the Born again, is never again "in sin" or "found as having sin".

Why?
Because "God hath made Jesus to BE SIN for US" (Us is the born again).
Dear Behold,
You have not been carefully reading my posts.

Yes, all "born again" (converted) believers will never lose their salvation and are not under the Law. However, you do not understand what it takes to be converted.

To be converted, a believer must be "chosen" from the foundation of the world so that Christ will come to them TWO times and give them BOTH the Early and Latter Rains.

Jam 5:7 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receives the EARLY and LATTER RAIN. 8 Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.

The time in between the Early and Latter Rains is a time of spiritual darkness because a believer will remain spiritually blind after having received the Early Rain.

This time period is "typed" by Israel's 40 years of wandering in the wilderness and by Elijah's 3 1/2 years of drought. It is a believer's time of affliction and when they are deceived and killed by Satan. During this time, Satan's deception (via the spirit of anti-Christ) will make a believer "worse than the first" (Mat 12:43-45) and they will become a "man of sin".

However, for most believers, Christ will not "come again" to them in this lost and spiritually worsened state. They simply were not chosen to be one of the Elect:

Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

The "many" who have received the Early Rain and have been called out from the world are spiritually blind. And as Isa 28:9-12 says, they will "fall away and be broken and taken and snared" by Satan. This is why the churches of the world are apostate. They have all accepted "another gospel" which mixes their own "works" with faith.

When a believer mixes their own "works" with faith, they will fall from grace:

Gal 5:3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. 4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Heb 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, 2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and age-enduring judgment. 3 And this will we do, if God permit. 4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come 6 if they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance: seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.


And as Peter puts it, they return to their own vomit/mire (symbols which represents man's "works"):

2Pet 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

100% of all believers who enter the church will experience a "falling away" after having received the Early Rain. But only those who are chosen will be restored to Christ. They are restored to Christ when He comes to them a second time and pours out the Latter Rain.

Those who are not chosen will not experience the second coming of Christ during their lifetimes. For them, Christ does NOT come "quickly" (Rev 22:20). Because He doesn't come, they will die in their sins and will be resurrected to judgment by the Law.

But those who are "chosen" will not left to die in their fallen away state. They will be harvested early. That is why the Elect are called "First Fruits". Their days as a "man of sin" (time of affliction, great tribulation) will be shortened. If they weren't shortened, no flesh would be saved (Mat 24:22).

What I have explained above is the truth as presented by scripture. It is not a "cult doctrine". However, it is something that the apostate church does not and cannot understand. That is the nature of being spiritually blind and deceived.

Joe
 

Eternally Grateful

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Dear Behold,
Yes, a converted believer is no longer under the Law and never will be again. But there is one sin that a new believer can commit that will cause them to lose their salvation. When a believer commits this sin, they will "fall away" from grace and return to being under the Law.

John mentions it here:

1John 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

Paul said it this way:

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Here is what Paul describes as the "sin unto death":

Gal 5:3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. 4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

The New Covenant is described as "Grace through Faith". Faith is the key to receiving Grace and it is called the "straight way". That is why when John the Baptist came with His call of repentance, He did so to make the pathway straight for Christ to come to the Jewish Elect who were walking by "works" (the crooked way).

The crooked way is to approach Christ by our own "works". The foundational belief for "works" is taught by Satan in his Doctrine of Free Will. When a believer follows the crooked way, they are nullifying the perfect sacrifice which Christ made on the cross.

The crooked way is the what Satan teaches in His "another gospel". For that reason, God's Word calls Satan the "crooked" serpent. When a new believer is deceived by Satan and begins following his crooked way, they will fall from grace. This is how Satan kills the saints. It is a spiritual death and is mentioned in the verses below:

Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.


Christ mentions it here:

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Christ also teaches it here:

Mat 12:43 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none. 44 Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished. 45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself SEVEN other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.

The "seven" unclean spirits which return with the first spirit is a symbol for the spirit of anti-Christ. That spirit represents Satan's ultimate and perfect deception. It is by this spirit that Satan devoured the church shortly after Paul's death. That spirit is so deceiving to a believer, that Christ even said this about it:

Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

The only reason that the very Elect (the Apostles) were not deceived by the spirit of anti-Christ is because they were converted prior to the spirit coming into the world. However, for the believers who have entered the church after it came, they were utterly deceived by it just as Christ explained in Mat 12:43-45. Since the end of the 1st Century A.D, none of the flock has been spared.

So when will a believer fall away from grace?

It happens after they are called out from the world and have received the earnest of the Spirit. This is called the Holy Spirit of Promise in Eph 1:13-14) and it is called the Early Rain in James 5:7-8.

Most believers have no understanding of the Early Rain because it is part of the great mystery of Christ and His church (Eph 5:32).

I'll explain the Early Rain and Latter Rain below.

When Christ first comes to a person to call them out from the world, He will give them the Early Rain of the Spirit. However, this is only a down payment of the full amount that will be given to them later (if they are one of the Elect).

The time a new believer spends after they have received the Early Rain on up until they receive the Latter Rain is called a time of great tribulation (Mat 24:21). That time period is also "typed" by Elijah's 3 1/2 years of drought and Daniel's last 3 1/2 years of his 70 weeks prophecy. A new believer will experience that time of drought because they remain "spiritually blind" after they received the Early Rain. During that time period, a new believer can hear the voice of Christ but they cannot "see" (understand) Him.

Because the new believer remains spiritually blind, they will remain carnally minded and will only understand Christ (God's Word) in a carnal way. A good example of this carnal way of understanding scripture is how the church understands Matthew chapter 24. The church understands it as teaching on a future visible return of Christ at the literal end of this age. However, the spiritual way of understanding it teaches that it is presenting the spiritual pathway to salvation that each of the Elect will travel. The pathway ends when Christ returns to an Elect believer with the Latter Rain and gathers them to heaven (spiritually speaking).

Because a new believer remains spiritual blind, Satan has no trouble in deceiving them with his "another gospel". After they accept his gospel of "works", they will fall away and become a part of the apostate church. It has happened to all new believers since the 1st century and that is why the churches in the world are all apostate (all approx. 2,000 different denominations and sects).

Because all the Elect are "killed" by Satan after they are "called out", Christ will send a person to His fallen away Elect with a call of repentance. Christ will then cause His Elect to repent of their "works". Their repentance will make Christ's pathway straight for Him to come to them a second time with the Latter Rain. The Latter Rain is also called the baptism of the Holy Spirit and is what the Apostles received on the Day of Pentecost. After the Elect receive the Latter Rain, Christ will heal their spiritual blindness and they will "see" the Abomination of Desolation that occurred within themselves. The man of sin will also be revealed to them and they will find that they are the man of sin. After this occurs, Christ says to "look up":

Luke 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

After Christ pours out the Latter Rain and spiritually gathers the believer (now a child of God) to heaven, judgment will fall on the Man of Sin (spirit of anti-Christ) and the Great Harlot (worsened carnal nature of the believer). After they are destroyed, the believer will be converted. After a believer is converted, it is not possible for them to ever fall away again. Their salvation is secured.

Joe
The death spoken of here is physical death. Not spiritual death

Jesus said a man who is born again will never perish.

He said they have eternal life

he said they will never die, and they will live forever.

It does not mean they will not suffer physical death.

it is speaking of security or spiritual life as a member of the family of God..

they can never lose salvation.
 
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Eternally Grateful

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Dear Behold,
A person is not "born again" until they are converted. It is at that point that they permanently come out from being under the Law.

To be converted, a person must receive both the Early and Latter Rain, followed by the judgment of Christ.

Conversion does NOT happen to a person after they have only been given the Early Rain of the Spirit and have entered the church.

John 8:3-10 is where Christ taught that truth in "type". The "type" is commonly called the story of the woman taken in adultery.

In the "type" presented by the story, Christ uses the marriage analogy to teach His message.

In the story, the "woman" represents Christ's Elect who will become the Bride of Christ.

The story begins with the woman being caught in the act of adultery:

John 8:3 And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst, 4 They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act. 5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?

This event looks back to the time when Adam & Eve were caught in the act of adultery with Satan in the Garden of Eden. When Adam and Eve sinned, they were judged by the Law and were given the penalty of death (both spiritual and physical). Their sin resulted in them being forsaken by their husband (Christ):

Isa 54:5 For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called. 6 For the LORD hath called thee as a woman forsaken and grieved in spirit, and a wife of youth, when thou wast refused, saith thy God. 7 For a small moment have I forsaken thee; but with GREAT MERCIES will I gather thee.

The story continues by showing the spiritual process that Christ is going to take the woman through which will result in the restoration of her marriage relationship with Christ. That spiritual process is the New Covenant of Grace through Faith.

John 8:6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.

Christ’s act of writing in the ground represents the Early Rain of the Spirit when Christ begins the spiritual process of restoring His wife. By writing in the ground, Christ is writing His Law of the Spirit in her heart.

This verse applies:

Jer 31:33 But this shall be the COVENANT that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

The verse above is referring to the New Covenant of Grace through Faith (His "great mercies"). Under the New Covenant, Christ will perform all the necessary “works” to restore the woman to Himself. And since it is a spiritual covenant, He will write his Law of the Spirit in the heart of the woman.

John 8:7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

After Christ first writes in the earth (represents the woman's carnal heart), the Pharisees continue to accuse the woman. They do this because the woman still remains under the Law after having received the Early Rain of the Spirit. She remains under the Law because the Early Rain is not sufficient to stop her from committing adultery with Satan. In other words, she does not yet have the ability to approach Christ strictly by faith alone. She is still compelled by her carnal nature and the deceptions of Satan to mix in her own “works” with faith. She tries to serve two masters, both Satan and Christ (Mat 6:24).

By continuing in her adultery, she falls away from faith after having received the Early Rain and remains under the Law. For this reason, the Pharisees do NOT drop their stones but continue to accuse her. The "stones" represent the Law.

John 8:8 And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground. 9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst. 10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?

In verse 8, Christ stoops down a second time and writes His Law of the Spirit in the heart of the woman again. This act represents the second coming of Christ when He comes and pours out the Latter Rain of the Spirit upon the woman.

It is at this point that Christ heals the woman’s spiritual blindness (taught in Mark 8:21-25) and she comes out from Satan’s deceptions. At that time, the woman (the Elect) begins to walk by faith alone. This change leads to her conversion and her restored marriage relationship with Christ. As a result, the Law can no longer accuse her. After this change from the Old Covenant of Law to the New Covenant of Grace through Faith, the Pharisees drop their stones and leave.

Joe
A person is born again when like the children of Israel in moses day. they look up at the one on the cross.

it is through faith..


those who looked at the serpent lived, those who did not in unbelief died.
 
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FaithWillDo

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The death spoken of here is physical death. Not spiritual death

Jesus said a man who is born again will never perish.

He said they have eternal life

he said they will never die, and they will live forever.

It does not mean they will not suffer physical death.

it is speaking of security or spiritual life as a member of the family of God..

they can never lose salvation.
Dear Eternally Grateful,
You are understanding scripture carnally and not spiritually. The sin that leads to death means a spiritual death.

1John 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

"There is a sin unto death" is not speaking about a physical death. John is talking about the sin of mixing works with faith which will cause a believer to "fall from grace" and spiritually die. You should reconsider your understanding.

And like Behold, you do not understand when a believer is "born again". Once a believer is "born again", what you stated is true. But it takes more than just the Early Rain to be born again and converted. I explained this concept in my post.

Joe
 

Behold

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Dear Eternally Grateful,
You are understanding scripture carnally and not spiritually. The sin that leads to death means a spiritual death.


There is no death of the "spirit".
See, if the "spirit" died then their would be no need for Hell and the Lake of Fire to deal with the Christ Rejector's non born again Spirit, as its not their body that ends up in the 2nd Death.
 
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Eternally Grateful

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Dear Eternally Grateful,
You are understanding scripture carnally and not spiritually. The sin that leads to death means a spiritual death.
No it does not
1John 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
Explain to me how I can see a man commit a sin that leads to death, Unless that man dies physically
"There is a sin unto death" is not speaking about a physical death. John is talking about the sin of mixing works with faith which will cause a believer to "fall from grace" and spiritually die. You should reconsider your understanding.

And like Behold, you do not understand when a believer is "born again". Once a believer is "born again", what you stated is true. But it takes more than just the Early Rain to be born again and converted. I explained this concept in my post.

Joe
I explained what born again means and what we receive.

if we can die.(spiritually) we have not been born again yet.. we are still dead.
 
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Behold

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"There is a sin unto death"in H

This means there is a sin that is beyond the reach of the Holy Spirit's conviction.

Also, the NT teaches that "IN ADAM" we all die, and that is the body, but not the Spirit.

So, when we are trying to understand "spiritual death" that Adam experienced, this is not actual DEATH of the Spirit, but its the separation from God's Spirit.

See, God is LIFE, and spiritual separation from God is "spiritual death".

All unbelievers are living as "spiritual death" until they are BORN AGAIN SPIRITUALLY, having been made alive by the Holy Spirit.

Their spirit was never DEAD, it was/is Separated from God, as that is to be separated from the LIFE that is IN GOD.

When we become 'IN CHRIST" we are once again joined to THE LIFE who is Jesus.... "the Way, the Truth and THE LIFE"...
Jesus is GOD manifested in the FLESH.

2nd Death, as related to being eternally damned, found in Hell and later the Lake of fire, is not the death of the spirit, its the fact that this person's spirit will never be rejoined to God.

1st Death is to be an unbeliever, on EARTH.
2nd Death is to DIE as one, having never again the chance to be born again Spiritually.
 
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FaithWillDo

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A person is born again when like the children of Israel in moses day. they look up at the one on the cross.

it is through faith..


those who looked at the serpent lived, those who did not in unbelief died.
Dear Eternally Grateful,
You are not understanding the symbolism of Moses' bronze serpent. A person is not "born again" by looking at the bronze serpent. The bronze serpent represents Satan's "crooked way" which is based on man's works (the Old Covenant of Law). That is why a serpent was placed on the pole and is why the bronze serpent was later "broken into pieces".

2Kings 18:3 And he did that which was right in the sight of the LORD, according to all that David his father did. 4 He removed the high places, and brake the images, and cut down the groves, and brake in pieces the brasen serpent that Moses had made: for unto those days the children of Israel did burn incense to it: and he called it Nehushtan.

The Old Covenant was given first to lead us to the New Covenant.

John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

When a believer makes the transition from the Old Covenant to the New Covenant, they, too, will "brake in pieces" the brasen serpent and replace it with Christ.

Joe