Both Pretribbers and Preterists are clearly wrong that great tribulation begins with the DOTL.

[PinSeeker]

Okay. But, my post must have spawned yours, at least, since no one was talking about 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 and 2 Peter 3:10-12 before I mentioned it. So, it came across that you thought when I said the earth would be destroyed that I was saying it would be annihilated and I wanted to clear that up from my own perspective so as not to be misrepresented.

You said, "mass, global destruction." Not my words... yours. Maybe you should have defined "mass, global destruction." Whatever. No need.

Grace and peace.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You said, "mass, global destruction." Not my words... yours. Maybe you should have defined "mass, global destruction." Whatever. No need.

Grace and peace.

Agree with your last two words of the first line. Plus, I've explained my view of this on this forum many times before, so didn't think there was a need to do it again. And the flood was mass, global destruction and didn't result in annihilation, so...yeah. Whatever, though.

 

[PinSeeker]

...the flood was mass, global destruction and didn't result in annihilation, so...yeah. Whatever, though.

This time God will burn everything up, though, right? <smile>

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Marvelloustime]

And they loved not their lives unto death . SO allow one more reminder .
HE who endures TO THE END the same shall be saved . To the END .

@amigo de christo

 

[Davidpt]

This time God will burn everything up, though, right? <smile>

Grace and peace to you.

Speaking of something like that. Let's consider this scenario.

There is a ship out at sea. It catches fire and the fire is out of control and humanly impossible to put out at this point. The fire has already destoyed any and all life preservers, lifeboats, etc. Everyone still alive aboard the ship are doomed and they clearly know it. Which death should we assume they might choose, given they have a choice? Staying aboard the ship risking being burned to a crisp eventually? Or jumping overboard risking drowning eventually?Obviously, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that one out.

And it really makes sense, that as bad as it is to drown to death, thus not a pleasant way to die, that God has found a loophole. He doesn't have to drown everyone just like He promised. He simply comes up with a way to kill everyone off that is hundreds if not thousands of times more horrific than drowning, burning everyone and everything to ashes. I hope none of these Amils that believe that think there will be animals in the new earth. How could there be if the entire animal kingdom is wiped out entirely, including all creatures living in bodies of water, such as ponds, lakes, rivers, seas, oceans.

Maybe you can't drown any of those during a flood, but no way could they survive the intense heat that would be millions of degrees F per this scenario, and the intense smoke that would be from one end of the earth to the other. I'm just not on board with nonsense like that. My mind is unwilling to accept that absurdity. And not because I'm Premil, but because it is profoundly absurd, period. Which then begs the question, the fact Revelation 19 involves the 2nd coming as well, where in all of Revelation 19 does it remotely depict that the entire planet is literally engulfed in flames and that everyone and everything still on the planet at the time are being burned to ashes? Then using feasting birds imagery to convey that, as if that makes a lick of sense per a scenario like that.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

This time God will burn everything up, though, right? <smile>

Sure. Why not? Destroying (not annihilating....always need to clarify that, apparently) the earth is obviously something that God has done before. And sending fire down on earth is also something He has done before, but just not the entire earth. How else is He going to remove the wicked and renew the earth except by fire? Why not by fire? I don't understand the objection to this at all.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Speaking of something like that. Let's consider this scenario.

There is a ship out at sea. It catches fire and the fire is out of control and humanly impossible to put out at this point. The fire has already destoyed any and all life preservers, lifeboats, etc. Everyone still alive aboard the ship are doomed and they clearly know it. Which death should we assume they might choose, given they have a choice? Staying aboard the ship risking being burned to a crisp eventually? Or jumping overboard risking drowning eventually?Obviously, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that one out.

And it really makes sense, that as bad as it is to drown to death, thus not a pleasant way to die, that God has found a loophole. He doesn't have to drown everyone just like He promised. He simply comes up with a way to kill everyone off that is hundreds if not thousands of times more horrific than drowning, burning everyone and everything to ashes.

You obviously have Amils like me in mind here, so let us reason together. You are misrepresenting my, and many other Amils, understanding of what is going to occur. You are acting as if we believe that God will take His time burning up the earth and that people will be running around on fire and screaming while trying to put the fire out and so on. No. That's not what we believe. How long do you think it took Sodom and Gomorrah to be burned up? The indications are that they were destroyed by fire instantly. As fast as Lot's wife was turned into a pillar of salt. So, with that in mind, drowning is much worse than being instantly destroyed by fire.

If you have a problem with the idea of God sending fire down on people in general, then does what happened to Sodom and Gomorrah bother you? Do you believe God was overly cruel when He destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah by fire? Or is your objection only based on the type of scenario you're describing, which does not accurately represent what I believe, as I explained?

You can't refute an opposing belief by misrepresenting it. That's just not reasonable. Please address what we actually believe.

I hope none of these Amils that believe that think there will be animals in the new earth. How could there be if the entire animal kingdom is wiped out entirely, including all creatures living in bodies of water, such as ponds, lakes, rivers, seas, oceans. Maybe you can't drown any of those during a flood, but no way could they survive the intense heat that would be millions of degrees F per this scenario, and the intense smoke that would be from one end of the earth to the other. I'm just not on board with nonsense like that.

You can't have beliefs that are based on your emotions rather than on scripture. That's how people end up believing in things like annihilation rather than the biblical teaching of eternal torment. Eternal torment seems overly cruel and unjust to them just as you think would be the case if all animals are destroyed. God has never said that animals are eternal creatures or that He would dwell with animals forever. He does not have a personal relationship with animals. Only with humans and angels.

My mind is unwilling to accept that absurdity.

What is absurd about the idea that animals are not meant to exist for eternity and that only humans and angels are? Why does scripture not place the significance on animals that you do? What scripture can you use to back up your beliefs about this?

And not because I'm Premil, but because it is profoundly absurd, period. Which then begs the question, the fact Revelation 19 involves the 2nd coming as well, where in all of Revelation 19 does it remotely depict that the entire planet is literally engulfed in flames and that everyone and everything still on the planet at the time are being burned to ashes? Then using feasting birds imagery to convey that, as if that makes a lick of sense per a scenario like that.

Revelation 19 is symbolic. Clearly, Jesus is not going to slay people with a literal sword coming out of His mouth or literally tread them in a winepress at His second coming. So, we shouldn't assume that the description of birds consuming people's flesh who were killed by the sword coming out of Christ's mouth should be taken literally, either.

 

[amigo de christo]

You obviously have Amils like me in mind here, so let us reason together. You are misrepresenting my, and many other Amils, understanding of what is going to occur. You are acting as if we believe that God will take His time burning up the earth and that people will be running around on fire and screaming while trying to put the fire out and so on. No. That's not what we believe. How long do you think it took Sodom and Gomorrah to be burned up? The indications are that they were destroyed by fire instantly. As fast as Lot's wife was turned into a pillar of salt. So, with that in mind, drowning is much worse than being instantly destroyed by fire.

If you have a problem with the idea of God sending fire down on people in general, then does what happened to Sodom and Gomorrah bother you? Do you believe God was overly cruel when He destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah by fire? Or is your objection only based on the type of scenario you're describing, which does not accurately represent what I believe, as I explained?

You can't refute an opposing belief by misrepresenting it. That's just not reasonable. Please address what we actually believe.


You can't have beliefs that are based on your emotions rather than on scripture. That's how people end up believing in things like annihilation rather than the biblical teaching of eternal torment. Eternal torment seems overly cruel and unjust to them just as you think would be the case if all animals are destroyed. God has never said that animals are eternal creatures or that He would dwell with animals forever. He does not have a personal relationship with animals. Only with humans and angels.


What is absurd about the idea that animals are not meant to exist for eternity and that only humans and angels are? Why does scripture not place the significance on animals that you do? What scripture can you use to back up your beliefs about this?


Revelation 19 is symbolic. Clearly, Jesus is not going to slay people with a literal sword coming out of His mouth or literally tread them in a winepress at His second coming. So, we shouldn't assume that the description of birds consuming people's flesh who were killed by the sword coming out of Christ's mouth should be taken literally, either.

Revelation nineteen is exactly as JESUS said . MY WORDS shall be your judge on the last day .
It sure do represent their judgment of wrath , WHICH IS laid down by JESUS himself against them .
To the trenches one and all . We gots us a harlot selling love and by her love has seduced many to A LIE .
And that LIE omits THE DIRE NEED TO BELIEVE ON JESUS . T HUS Damantion awaits all who bought it .
We cannot serve both TRUTH and A LIE . WE MUST MAKE OUR CHOICE TODAY . ITS EITHER TRUTH or A LIE
but it cannot b e both one serv es .

 

[amigo de christo]

Agree with your last two words of the first line. Plus, I've explained my view of this on this forum many times before, so didn't think there was a need to do it again. And the flood was mass, global destruction and didn't result in annihilation, so...yeah. Whatever, though.

let each be fully persauded that we cannot serve TRUTH and A LIE . we cannot cliam both BELIEF and UNBELEIF .
MANY gonna wail my friend . THEY GONNA wail on JESUS day and their idols and false love will not be ab le
to save or deliver them FROM THE WRATH OF GOD and OF THE LAMB .
SO may i reminds us all .
YE CANNOT cliam to BELIEVE ON JESUS and then also cliam UNBELEIF as other reglioins get a pass .
EITHER YE BELEIVE or you dont , BUT IT CANNOT BE BOTH .
EITHER ONE as a child BELIEVES they must BELEIVE ON JESUS to be saved , or they beleive its okay if one believes not .
BUT IT CANNOT be both . FOR all they ever really beleived was , OH ITS OKAY if one believes not ON JESUS .
Paul suffered much
as did peter , as did john and them all . AND WHY did they suffer at the hands of men .
CAUSE THEY PREACHED JESUS . JESUS , not some finding common ground anti christ lie .
IF paul had sought common ground with unbelieving jews , HE HAD NEVER ONCE been perseucted by them .
THIS g eneration LOVES A LIE . I have come to EXPOSE THAT LIE .
AND to make sure that all who name the name of the CHRIST OF GOD
Understands , that ye cannot be co helper to the TRUTH and to A LIE . or all you ever were
was co helper to THE LIE . THE LIE of UNBELIEF . I Expose before all today , THE ANTI CHRIST PEACE RELIGION
of intefaith ecumeincal incluisive interreligious dialgoue .
I HAVE MADE MY CHOICE . THAT CHOICE IS JESUS . AND IT IS HE who i shall preach and not rather
allow UNBELIEF to b e accepted . This sheep DONT SERVE a lie nor am i co helper to A LIE .
I Expose A LIE and shall preach JESUS CHRIST and the aboslute , now hear this , ABOSLUTE DIRE NECESSITY
to BELEIVE ON HIM . And we IF truly BELIEVE ON HIM , WE HAD absolutely BELIEVED HIS WORDS .
IT matters not to me that more and more cannot stand to be anywhere near me .
DUE to my relentless reminder THAT ALL them religons be false and of the darkness
and that they must repent and BELEIVE on CHRIST JESUS the SON OF GOD or prepare to wail as they perish .

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I agree, but that still does not necessarily mean that (in order) Jesus's return and final defeat of Satan, the final Judgment and sending away of unbelievers into that judgment, and the consummation of God's Kingdom and the beginning of the New Heaven and New Earth will take place over the course of more than one 12- or 24-hour period. All we can know is that it will all take place in very short order. How much time actually elapses is unknown, but not important, really. It'll happen, and we'll all be... very, very glad. <smile>

Grace and peace to all.

Well you are mixing up many events that are separated by a thousand years. As for the great white throne judgment and the events before and after, they will take time.

Satan is defeated and hurled in the LOF
The resurrection of the lost
Their judgment
Prior to this, the present universe is destroyed by fire
Then teh new heavens and earth.

At some point here time ceases so we will not count as we do now. but it will take more than 24 hours.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I know (I think) what you are getting at, that the DOTL encompasses both God's wrath and Jesus 1000 year reign on earth. I buy that also, but I was just pointing to the time period between when the wrath falls and when Jesus' 2nd coming happens. I think Daniel 12 is key. The three numbers tell us everything.

No.

Dan. 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

So, 1335 days before the 2nd coming we see a Blessing, those living at that time will be blessed by some "unknown event". That event is the 2 witnesses showing up to turn Israel back unto God as Malachi 4:5 says and as Zech. 13:8-9 shows us, the 1/3 repent, and guess what the next verse says, in Zech. 14:1 it says the DOTL arrives !! Vs 2 shows Jerusalem being conquered and vs. 3 Jesus' 2nd coming.

The 1290 and 1335 days are after Jesus retuirns.

Based on Scriptural practices, the thirty days (1290) is Israel mourning and cleansing the temple.
The 45 days afterwards would appear to be the judgment when Jesus returns to see who enters the Millennial kingdom or not. I say this because there is a blessing for all who make it to the 1335 days

 

[KUWN]

@amigo de christo
View attachment 85552

Actually, the word for "be saved" is better translated "be delivered." This is not a salvation verse. It is a promise to all those during the Tribulation who endure throughout it, will be delivered by Christ at the end.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Revelation nineteen is exactly as JESUS said . MY WORDS shall be your judge on the last day .
It sure do represent their judgment of wrath , WHICH IS laid down by JESUS himself against them .
To the trenches one and all . We gots us a harlot selling love and by her love has seduced many to A LIE .
And that LIE omits THE DIRE NEED TO BELIEVE ON JESUS . T HUS Damantion awaits all who bought it .
We cannot serve both TRUTH and A LIE . WE MUST MAKE OUR CHOICE TODAY . ITS EITHER TRUTH or A LIE
but it cannot b e both one serv es .

What exactly is your point here as it relates to what I said? Are you saying that Revelation 19 should be interpreted literally in the sense that He was talking about a literal sword coming out of His mouth and such? My point relates to the type of physical destruction that will occur when He returns. Do you agree that it will be by fire (2 Thess 1:7-10, 2 Peter 3:10-12)?