Both Pretribbers and Preterists are clearly wrong that great tribulation begins with the DOTL.

[rebuilder 454]

FYI - You should post your accusations against me of: "changing/corrupting the words of Jesus"

Then you would have merit, but now you only have the accusations of the pharisees.

List the components of mat 24's setting "before the flood" rapture. One taken/one left.
The bible says what it says.
I report it.
Then you dodge it.

You then say I am vague pharisee and without merit....oh the irony.
Telling you what Jesus said is like telling it to a telephone pole.
Get honest about it.
Just once get off the dodge gig and get real.

 

[David in NJ]

List the components of mat 24's setting "before the flood" rapture. One taken/one left.
The bible says what it says.
I report it.
Then you dodge it.

You then say I am vague pharisee and without merit....oh the irony.
Telling you what Jesus said is like telling it to a telephone pole.
Get honest about it.
Just once get off the dodge gig and get real.

Who did JESUS say were 'taken' during the God's Wrath/Flood???

 

[rebuilder 454]

while you waiting

Watch the video which was provided for from the deadly fruit of pre-trib rapture

Just tell me the misguided "truth" of your time wasting video.

I already know every one of your doctrine workbook talking points.

You won't address anything specific.

 

[David in NJ]

Just tell me the misguided "truth" of your time wasting video.

I already know every one of your doctrine workbook talking points.

You won't address anything specific.

454 rebuilder = this video should be important to you = based on your member name

 

[rebuilder 454]

Note the postribber non bible debate skills.
Emogies and vague indirect talking points.

 

[rebuilder 454]

If you don't know the video talking points, why ask me to waste my time.

454 rebuilder = this video should be important to you = based on your member name

I already know ALL YOUR TALKING POINTS.
You do not know the pretrib rapture doctrine.

That puts you at a disadvantage.

...and is why you reply in vague talking points.
.....and some video

 

[David in NJ]

If you don't know the video talking points, why ask me to waste my time.

I already know ALL YOUR TALKING POINTS.
You do not know the pretrib rapture doctrine.

That puts you at a disadvantage.

...and is why you reply in vague talking points.
.....and some video

i absolutely know the pre-trib man-made talking points.

i BELIEVE the words of the LORD Jesus Christ - so should you = Matthew 24:29-31

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

 

[amigo de christo]

FYI - You should post your accusations against me of: "changing/corrupting the words of Jesus"

Then you would have merit, but now you only have the accusations of the pharisees.

Oh i look around and what did i and do i see , that many a pre trib doctrine
contradicts What the GLORIOUS KING JESUS himself had to say on the subject of his Coming
for the sheep and to LAY DOWN THE WRATH OF GOD against all others who had taken
the mark of such a beast that had been GIVE NPPOWER to come against , THE SAINTS .
someone aint been reading their bible at all . And what that someone has rather done
is allowed men who desire and desired that best life now and perseuction free life , TO LIE to them all .
And in times past as it was done . It the days of great china and its growth and change from dem to comm
Many were promised , NO WO RRIES , they will not come for us , we wont get persecuted , WE fly home first .
And when the great pesecutions came
MANY sold out , felt betrayed . Years later a few pastors would speak of this .
One wept while he said these words , WE DID NOT PREPARE our churches for this coming perseuction
we had told them we would be raptured out before this .
And when the persecutoisn came we saw many fold and sell out , feeling betrayed by GOD .
The man choked up and wept while saying that david . BUT GOOD NEWS is
HE would never do the same again . HE would not teach that pre fib lie but rather
learned doctrine f or himself and now , well if he still be alive , IS preaching sound and firm doctrine
by which he builds up and prepares his people
for what JESUS himself told us we would face . TRIbulATIONS in this world but that HE WHO ENDURES FIATHFUL
to the END the same shall be sa ved . THIS generation is being set up for teh beast .
And believe you me they aint g onna realize it to be such . THEY gonna t hink
NO way this can be the mark , NO way can this be anything other that the work of GOD to bring peace on earth .
MANY WILL BELIEVE THE LIE david . for their hopes , trusts , cares and pleasures were in life and in men , NOT GOD
NOT CHRIST , NOT TRUTH . but men and this life and this world . their kingdom and hopes be EARTHERN david .
Not the HEavenly at all . FOR had they been HEavenly , had their love been for TRUTH
THEY had no so easily have bought lies and the lie . THEY had
LET GOD BE TRUE but every man a liar . THEY had known that EVERY WORD OF GOD , thus of CHRIST
and in those scrips WERE TRUTH and were never once to have been added too , taken from
BUT rather embraced upon the heart . MANY love what ear ticklers that please the flesh do teach .
BuT NOT TEH SHEEP david . not even if the cost is our own suffering and even d eath .
THE SHEEP WONT budge from the T RUTH . THEY will EMBRACE and BELIEVE THE TRUTH .

 

[LoveYeshua]

Note that postribbers celebrate, the fact, they got their doctrine from men.
It is their main pillar of their doctrine.

SMH

Jesus was clear the last day is after the tribulation; I believe his words 100% since he has all authority in heaven and on earth we cannot be wrong about what Jesus sais, it is clearly written, here are a few verses of jesus proving a post tribulation gathering of the elect;

Jesus gave the clearest sequence:
"But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send forth his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." (Matthew 24:29-31, ASV)

The gathering comes "immediately after the tribulation."

And concerning the resurrection:
"And this is the will of him that sent me, that of all that which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day." (John 6:39, ASV)
"No man can come to me, except the Father that sent me draw him: and I will raise him up in the last day."(John 6:44, ASV)
"Whoso eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day." (John 6:54, ASV)
Jesus consistently speaks of one resurrection of believers on the last day, not years before the end.

John's Revelation places the resurrection of the faithful after the beast's persecution:
"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them... and such as worshipped not the beast, neither his image, and received not the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand; and they lived, and reigned with Christ a thousand years." (Revelation 20:4, ASV)

These believers had already passed through the time when the beast ruled and demanded worship.
Jesus also prayed to the Father:
"I pray not that thou shouldest take them from the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil one."(John 17:15, ASV)

In Revelation Jesus says:
"Because thou didst keep the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of trial, that hour which is to come upon the whole world, to try them that dwell upon the earth." (Revelation 3:10, ASV)
The promise is to preserve His people through the trial, not necessarily to remove them before it.

The gathering of believers occurs after the tribulation, exactly as Jesus said in Matthew 24:29-31. who are we to contradict God's words. It will happen as He said I am certain of it.

 

[PinSeeker]

The gathering of believers occurs after the tribulation, exactly as Jesus said in Matthew 24:29-31. who are we to contradict God's words. It will happen as He said I am certain of it.

And we have tribulation now, in this life, just as Jesus said we would in John 16:33... "I have said these things to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation. But take heart; I have overcome the world." The time of tribulation is not yet to come, it is now, but... it will come to an end. Come quickly, Lord Jesus.

Grace and peace to all.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Jesus was clear the last day is after the tribulation; I believe his words 100% since he has all authority in heaven and on earth we cannot be wrong about what Jesus sais, it is clearly written, here are a few verses of jesus proving a post tribulation gathering of the elect;

Jesus gave the clearest sequence:
"But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send forth his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." (Matthew 24:29-31, ASV)

The gathering comes "immediately after the tribulation."

And concerning the resurrection:
"And this is the will of him that sent me, that of all that which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day." (John 6:39, ASV)
"No man can come to me, except the Father that sent me draw him: and I will raise him up in the last day."(John 6:44, ASV)
"Whoso eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day." (John 6:54, ASV)
Jesus consistently speaks of one resurrection of believers on the last day, not years before the end.

John's Revelation places the resurrection of the faithful after the beast's persecution:
"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them... and such as worshipped not the beast, neither his image, and received not the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand; and they lived, and reigned with Christ a thousand years." (Revelation 20:4, ASV)

These believers had already passed through the time when the beast ruled and demanded worship.
Jesus also prayed to the Father:
"I pray not that thou shouldest take them from the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil one."(John 17:15, ASV)

In Revelation Jesus says:
"Because thou didst keep the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of trial, that hour which is to come upon the whole world, to try them that dwell upon the earth." (Revelation 3:10, ASV)
The promise is to preserve His people through the trial, not necessarily to remove them before it.

The gathering of believers occurs after the tribulation, exactly as Jesus said in Matthew 24:29-31. who are we to contradict God's words. It will happen as He said I am certain of it.

You just posted a verse in matt. That after the trib, algels gather in heaven.
Mat 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


Ahem, your one verse says angels gather in heaven.
The rapture is the gathering of the bride by Jesus from the earth.
If you reread your passage in mat, it is the second coming on white horses.
Rev 19, the Second coming, is in power and great glory.
( post 7 yr trib).

If you remove context, omit verses, and use hyperdefinitions, ( DOTL, TRUMP, TRUMPET, LAST TRUMP, TRIB, WRATH), Then you are guaranteed error.

Take rev 14.
Ask a postribber to unpack the 144,000, Jesus sitting on a cloud with a sickle,and "firstfruits".

They have never been able to honestly take a shot at it, or the virgin parable.
With no red flags!!!!!

 

[rebuilder 454]

Oh i look around and what did i and do i see , that many a pre trib doctrine
contradicts What the GLORIOUS KING JESUS himself had to say on the subject of his Coming
for the sheep and to LAY DOWN THE WRATH OF GOD against all others who had taken
the mark of such a beast that had been GIVE NPPOWER to come against , THE SAINTS .
someone aint been reading their bible at all . And what that someone has rather done
is allowed men who desire and desired that best life now and perseuction free life , TO LIE to them all .
And in times past as it was done . It the days of great china and its growth and change from dem to comm
Many were promised , NO WO RRIES , they will not come for us , we wont get persecuted , WE fly home first .
And when the great pesecutions came
MANY sold out , felt betrayed . Years later a few pastors would speak of this .
One wept while he said these words , WE DID NOT PREPARE our churches for this coming perseuction
we had told them we would be raptured out before this .
And when the persecutoisn came we saw many fold and sell out , feeling betrayed by GOD .
The man choked up and wept while saying that david . BUT GOOD NEWS is
HE would never do the same again . HE would not teach that pre fib lie but rather
learned doctrine f or himself and now , well if he still be alive , IS preaching sound and firm doctrine
by which he builds up and prepares his people
for what JESUS himself told us we would face . TRIbulATIONS in this world but that HE WHO ENDURES FIATHFUL
to the END the same shall be sa ved . THIS generation is being set up for teh beast .
And believe you me they aint g onna realize it to be such . THEY gonna t hink
NO way this can be the mark , NO way can this be anything other that the work of GOD to bring peace on earth .
MANY WILL BELIEVE THE LIE david . for their hopes , trusts , cares and pleasures were in life and in men , NOT GOD
NOT CHRIST , NOT TRUTH . but men and this life and this world . their kingdom and hopes be EARTHERN david .
Not the HEavenly at all . FOR had they been HEavenly , had their love been for TRUTH
THEY had no so easily have bought lies and the lie . THEY had
LET GOD BE TRUE but every man a liar . THEY had known that EVERY WORD OF GOD , thus of CHRIST
and in those scrips WERE TRUTH and were never once to have been added too , taken from
BUT rather embraced upon the heart . MANY love what ear ticklers that please the flesh do teach .
BuT NOT TEH SHEEP david . not even if the cost is our own suffering and even d eath .
THE SHEEP WONT budge from the T RUTH . THEY will EMBRACE and BELIEVE THE TRUTH .

Jesus himself placed the rapture pretrib 4 different places.
Stop acting like he didn't.
You are REASONING yourself into a lie.
Fire your teachers and listen to Jesus.

 

[David in NJ]

Tribulation BEGAN the moment Eve was deceived.

 

[rebuilder 454]

i absolutely know the pre-trib man-made talking points.

i BELIEVE the words of the LORD Jesus Christ - so should you = Matthew 24:29-31

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

No you don't.
The only sketchy info you have concerning the pretrib rapture doctrine, is whatever we have told you.
None of it sticks, because those verses are cast down by you.

You have no clue about the pretrib rapture doctrine.
The thought of it offends you.

In fact every single postribber is CENTERED on anti pretrib rapture CONCEPT.

That is why NONE OF YOU KNOW OUR VERSES.
YOU ONLY "KNOW" that that doctrine is wrong.

You will not, and can not reconcile our verses.

That is the difference.
No investigation.

Your permanent dilemma is "no investigation prior to condemnation"
And your refusal of the bible proves it so.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Tribulation BEGAN the moment Eve was deceived.

No wrath ?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Everyone in the forum has discernment between tribulation and wrath. Except, ironically, the postribber hyper definition adherents.
Oh the irony.

There has never been a time and never will when "trouble" ( tribulation) is NOT CONTAINED in God's wrath.

Every time without exception, that God brings wrath, there is tribulation contained in the mix, on those people.
We all know trib, as a rule, comes from Satan.
God's wrath comes from God.
So all your posrrbibber "wrath vs Trib", talking points, are batting the air big time.

Since you start from a skewed starting place of "one coming" , which at this point is a total joke, your damage control has you all on a rabbit trail of hyper definitions.

You think coming up with hyper definitions gives some weird green light to void the rapture verses.

Very dishonest before God.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Amen
That is WHY I am here.
To bring verses BY JESUS, who taught the pretrib rapture, to the light.

Matthew 24:29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Note the postribber non bible debate skills.
Emogies and vague indirect talking points.

You complaining about someone else being too vague is like a robot designer complaining about an Amish person being too much into technology.

 

[David in NJ]

In fact every single postribber is CENTERED on anti pretrib rapture CONCEPT.

You are CORRECT!!!

The LORD Jesus Christ Prophesied against the falsehood of 'pre-trib' = Matthew ch24

"Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days......... I Come to gather MY elect"

We who know and love the Truth believe every word from the Mouth of GOD = Matthew 4:4

If you submit to CHRIST's words and that of the HOLY SPIRIT spoken thru the Apostles, you will be set FREE from error by the TRUTH.

 

[David in NJ]

You complaining about someone else being too vague is like a robot designer complaining about an Amish person being too much into technology.

This was great = loved the analogy = ty