By his stripes we are healed. Really?

[Randy Kluth]

no doctor. No medicine.
Prayed for 3 weeks for healing. No change, only got worse.
Then Jesus came.
THANK YOU JESUS.
Was better the next day. Actually got out of bed and ate. Had not eaten for 3 weeks.
Lost 35 lbs.
What an amazing God.
All those weeks of praying for God to heal me and I only got worse all the time.
Then Jesus came.!!!!
He said "you don't need healing you need Deliverance".
I immediately went to work on that spoken word.
I already had the written word, so I knew healing was my portion.
I knew healing was God's will.

It wasn't the written word, which you can turn into a doctrine. It is what God *spoke to you*--that word. The Scriptures without revelation becomes a *doctrine of Man*--no better than what the Pharisees did with the Law of Moses. They turned genuine revelation into something they could manipulate to get followers.

I'm very happy to hear you turned to God 1st! That's what I also do. But if God, for whatever reason, allows you to fall down and break a bone, rest assured God is leading you to go to a doctor. To deny this puts you in the theater of the absurd.

So I started rebuking the enemy. I commanded that thing from hell to leave me and never come back. I evicted that evil thing by the power and the blood of the Lord Jesus Christ. Blessed be his Holy Name!!!!
This is why it's so important to know who you are, and know what your inheritance is ,and know what belongs to you.

You have to be led by the Spirit to rebuke spirits. If you don't do it properly, those evil spirits will beat you up.

We have promises. Those are God's promises to his children even the woman that Jesus called a dog had enough sense to lay a hold of that revelation.
How marvelous of Jesus to say "healing is the childrens bread"

Even promises are evidences of God's word as they apply in the proper circumstances. We *cannot* manipulate God. He is not a magic word to get what you think God "promised you."

 

[Randy Kluth]

God knows we make mistakes in life, and all of us will get sick due to our poor practices or due to our living in the midst of people with poor practices. For that reason God has promised to be with us, and to sometimes supernaturally restore us, unless there is some other purpose.

What are those other purposes? In Job's case, it was testing. In Paul's case, it was to keep him humble because he was overloaded with revelation for the Church. In some cases it was just a temporary correction--God determines how great.

There is also the case where the Sin was too great to relieve one of the correction. In 1 John we hear of those who shouldn't think to get their prayers answered for someone whose sickness is too severe to expect the consequences will be resolved in the short term. This is the "Sickness unto Death" that is spoken of.

As I said, Faith Doctrine errs by mixing all of this together to create a false formula for "healing." It works at times because it was never meant to work all the time, but does accurately reflect God's supernatural responses when the situation warrants it. We need to always be *led by God!*

 

[rebuilder 454]

That isn't remotely Jesus' word. You misrepresent the God of the Bible. There have been zero evidence that saints don't get sick and die.

When you misrepresent God in this way, you set people up for discouragement when their "claim of healing" doesn't happen, when bad things happen. Those like Job would abandon their faith on this basis. Paul even boasted of his sufferings--he never "claimed" he was immune from it.

You need to get off of Faith Doctrine and the "Faith" advocates who mislead you, sincere or not, on a regular basis, selling Christianity for the promise of miracles and healings. They need to get back to preaching the Gospel--then they will properly deserve financial support.

This is what i am talking about.
We all know saints get sick and die.
No brainer.
Never said they didn't and never will.
I said AS IS VIVIDLY PORTRAYED in the word that it is his will for ALL his children to be healed.
Healing is PROVIDED for.

Frame your assertions around salvation and you have the same dynamic i am saying.
Salvation provided for the entire planet by Jesus and the cross.
Healing the same.
You have never understood my position.
You are so fearful somebody is in your box, you have not seen at all what i am saying.
Jesus heals today, very strangely invokes all kinds of fear of man.
You can ,( for example) ,parade every atheist around the world. Invoke every one of them, and do so every time someone says "salvation is part of the atonement" and you will bat the air with all sorts of strange silliness, but what is your cause??????
The same with healing.
It is part of the atonement whether you parade every sick or dying saint into the mix or not...it changes nothing.
Salvation provided = IT MUST BE LAID HOLD OF.
saints dying and sick has ZERO to do with physical healing we are promised at the cross.
The same is true of communion.
Some die and are sick because they did not discern properly the body of Christ.
Does that change ANYTHING concerning the beauty and blessing of the communion table?????
Nope. It was THEIR CALL to mix sin and God.
It is our call to appropriate the promise of healing.
Same with the brass serpent. They HAD TO LOOK at it.
Salvation....conditional
Healing....conditional
Communion table ....conditional

 

[rebuilder 454]

It wasn't the written word, which you can turn into a doctrine. It is what God *spoke to you*--that word. The Scriptures without revelation becomes a *doctrine of Man*--no better than what the Pharisees did with the Law of Moses. They turned genuine revelation into something they could manipulate to get followers.

I'm very happy to hear you turned to God 1st! That's what I also do. But if God, for whatever reason, allows you to fall down and break a bone, rest assured God is leading you to go to a doctor. To deny this puts you in the theater of the absurd.

You have to be led by the Spirit to rebuke spirits. If you don't do it properly, those evil spirits will beat you up.

Even promises are evidences of God's word as they apply in the proper circumstances. We *cannot* manipulate God. He is not a magic word to get what you think God "promised you."

the elephant in the room.
You skipped the one behind all the sickness.
The devil.
You are unaware WHO we have authority over.
You completely miss the point.

 

[rebuilder 454]

God knows we make mistakes in life, and all of us will get sick due to our poor practices or due to our living in the midst of people with poor practices. For that reason God has promised to be with us, and to sometimes supernaturally restore us, unless there is some other purpose.

What are those other purposes? In Job's case, it was testing. In Paul's case, it was to keep him humble because he was overloaded with revelation for the Church. In some cases it was just a temporary correction--God determines how great.

There is also the case where the Sin was too great to relieve one of the correction. In 1 John we hear of those who shouldn't think to get their prayers answered for someone whose sickness is too severe to expect the consequences will be resolved in the short term. This is the "Sickness unto Death" that is spoken of.

As I said, Faith Doctrine errs by mixing all of this together to create a false formula for "healing." It works at times because it was never meant to work all the time, but does accurately reflect God's supernatural responses when the situation warrants it. We need to always be *led by God!*

Ahem
You left out the devil once again.
God did nothing to Job.
But it gets worse.
Jesus GAVE US AUTHORITY over the devil.
Further, he gave is the PROECTIVE ARMOR against WHO?????
Now what does the enemy do?????
According to Jesus the devil comes to;
*Kill
*Steal
*Destroy.
I think you guys ascribe all that to God.
Huh?????

 

[Randy Kluth]

Ahem
You left out the devil once again.
God did nothing to Job.
But it gets worse.
Jesus GAVE US AUTHORITY over the devil.
Further, he gave is the PROECTIVE ARMOR against WHO?????
Now what does the enemy do?????
According to Jesus the devil comes to;
*Kill
*Steal
*Destroy.
I think you guys ascribe all that to God.
Huh?????

No, the Devil is not my favorite subject. Just like Halloween is not my favorite holiday! But yes, he has to be brought into the conversation because he is real, and an adversary must be understood if we are to resist him.

I'm never going to cover a subject completely. So there is no conspiracy here for me to leave the Devil out of this conversation! To think that is to be a bit paranoid. Criticism is something we all have to watch out for, just like watching out for the Devil.

But of course I would agree with you that the Devil is a real adversary that must be dealt with. We do need to be protected from him by putting on our spiritual armor.

Ascribing the Devil's works to God is not as bad as you make it out to be. God is omnipotent and oversees everything, including the works of the Devil. Everything the Devil does is something that God causes to happen by way of His tolerance and what might be called his "secondary will." He does will that evil beings be given opportunity to show that they are evil so that they will be judged.

You will find throughout Scriptures that God has been given credit for overseeing the works of all, righteous and unrighteous, even though God Himself is not producing evil as if it is His highest or primary will. God wishes to show all that He is righteous, just, and loving. His secondary will ultimately conforms to God's primary will in the end.

 

[Randy Kluth]

This is what i am talking about.
We all know saints get sick and die.
No brainer.
Never said they didn't and never will.
I said AS IS VIVIDLY PORTRAYED in the word that it is his will for ALL his children to be healed.
Healing is PROVIDED for.

No, that is absolutely untrue. Healing ultimately is provided for in terms of our immortalization at the resurrection. But healing cannot be guaranteed in the present environment, in the present age, because blessings are limited in a world that remains contaminated by pagans, and in a world where we ourselves continue to be infected by Sin. Christ himself, in all of his perfection, did not come to earth to be strictly blessed, free of all suffering. On the contrary, he came to ultimately die on the cross.

Frame your assertions around salvation and you have the same dynamic i am saying.

We are not "Saved" now in the sense we instantly become Immortal, just as we are not "healed" now in the sense we instantly become immortal. Are there differences in our physical and spiritual being when we get Saved? Of course. But this is just a down payment on the completion of our Salvation and Healing.

 

[rebuilder 454]

God knows we make mistakes in life, and all of us will get sick due to our poor practices or due to our living in the midst of people with poor practices. For that reason God has promised to be with us, and to sometimes supernaturally restore us, unless there is some other purpose.

What are those other purposes? In Job's case, it was testing. In Paul's case, it was to keep him humble because he was overloaded with revelation for the Church. In some cases it was just a temporary correction--God determines how great.

There is also the case where the Sin was too great to relieve one of the correction. In 1 John we hear of those who shouldn't think to get their prayers answered for someone whose sickness is too severe to expect the consequences will be resolved in the short term. This is the "Sickness unto Death" that is spoken of.

As I said, Faith Doctrine errs by mixing all of this together to create a false formula for "healing." It works at times because it was never meant to work all the time, but does accurately reflect God's supernatural responses when the situation warrants it. We need to always be *led by God!*

no
Gods word stands.
My dog had "Cushings disease"
It is 100% fatal
I went to bat for her.
I stood on mat 18:18
I took that promise to heaven a hundred times a day for 3 months, all the time she is deteriorating into a weak, sorry mess. They eventually pee all over the house and go blind and insane. They have to be put down every time. No dog has ever recovered from it.
At the end she was dying, laying on the floor gasping for breath. It seemed three months of declaring Gods word was not working.( now i did hear from heaven 3 times "stay with it")...so i did.
It was late at night. I called mom on the phone and told her the bad news.
I was so exhausted and spent i passed out on the bed with the dog dying on the floor .
At 2:33 am she woke me up and wanted out.
I got up and let her out and she took off running to the back yard.
It hit me...SHE IS HEALED!!!
Now get this...the vet did not believe it. I told him the story and he was baffled. He must have been an atheist.
I went to my former vet and he did blood work on her and was amazed.
But i could tell he was taken back in a bad way trying to EXPLAIN IT.

She is dead now.
All that was almost 10 years ago.
But that miracle was a result of persistence and standing on the word of God.
I real life modern miracle.
No way to explain it or dilute it due to mans doctrine or try to smear it by connecting it to the faith movement.

 

[Randy Kluth]

no
Gods word stands.
My dog had "Cushings disease"
It is 100% fatal
I went to bat for her.

Well, it's a nice emotional story, but that account doesn't in the least address the points I had hoped to make with you! You sound as if you're still trying to prove miracles work? My point was that miracles are not guaranteed!

Obviously, miracles do happen for the believer who has experienced them. There are many different kinds of miracles. They are supernatural acts of a supernatural God who has unlimited power. But I'm saying something else.

I'm saying that getting miracles or healings are not subject to a formula. God is *not* tied to your formula.

No matter how much you try to walk on water, you will sink. Unless God specifically leads you to walk on water you will sink. You need the word of God to guide you in everything, because *formulas don't work!*

Perhaps you're gifted with a strong intuition as to *when to pray?* We are to ask things in accordance with God's will, and not in accordance with the will of the flesh. It is the Spirit of God who shows us when we're asking something out of the prideful flesh, out of the covetous flesh, and when it is truly a sense of God's guidance.

Be warned in advance. Not everything you want is inspired by God. The flesh is all about itself, about our accomplishments, about our beliefs, about what we want. And what we want often produces friction and possibly even wars!

But we aren't robots. God may give us things we simply want out of a pure heart, and not out of any particular guidance. The guidance I speak of has to do with determining what our motives are, whether carnal or spiritual. Sometimes we just have to ask. Others may be of such a prophetic mind that they may only have to "command" it.

I don't know because it certainly isn't my gift. But I have seen God do a few notable things for me, without any particular "guidance." But for me to "command" God isn't really "up my alley," and seems to be somewhat irreligious if I do it.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Well, it's a nice emotional story, but that account doesn't in the least address the points I had hoped to make with you! You sound as if you're still trying to prove miracles work? My point was that miracles are not guaranteed!

Obviously, miracles do happen for the believer who has experienced them. There are many different kinds of miracles. They are supernatural acts of a supernatural God who has unlimited power. But I'm saying something else.

I'm saying that getting miracles or healings are not subject to a formula. God is *not* tied to your formula.

No matter how much you try to walk on water, you will sink. Unless God specifically leads you to walk on water you will sink. You need the word of God to guide you in everything, because *formulas don't work!*

Perhaps you're gifted with a strong intuition as to *when to pray?* We are to ask things in accordance with God's will, and not in accordance with the will of the flesh. It is the Spirit of God who shows us when we're asking something out of the prideful flesh, out of the covetous flesh, and when it is truly a sense of God's guidance.

Be warned in advance. Not everything you want is inspired by God. The flesh is all about itself, about our accomplishments, about our beliefs, about what we want. And what we want often produces friction and possibly even wars!

But we aren't robots. God may give us things we simply want out of a pure heart, and not out of any particular guidance. The guidance I speak of has to do with determining what our motives are, whether carnal or spiritual. Sometimes we just have to ask. Others may be of such a prophetic mind that they may only have to "command" it.

I don't know because it certainly isn't my gift. But I have seen God do a few notable things for me, without any particular "guidance." But for me to "command" God isn't really "up my alley," and seems to be somewhat irreligious if I do it.

A miracle by God does not need your dilution and reframing.
The Pharisees did exactly that.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Well, it's a nice emotional story, but that account doesn't in the least address the points I had hoped to make with you! You sound as if you're still trying to prove miracles work? My point was that miracles are not guaranteed!

Obviously, miracles do happen for the believer who has experienced them. There are many different kinds of miracles. They are supernatural acts of a supernatural God who has unlimited power. But I'm saying something else.

I'm saying that getting miracles or healings are not subject to a formula. God is *not* tied to your formula.

No matter how much you try to walk on water, you will sink. Unless God specifically leads you to walk on water you will sink. You need the word of God to guide you in everything, because *formulas don't work!*

Perhaps you're gifted with a strong intuition as to *when to pray?* We are to ask things in accordance with God's will, and not in accordance with the will of the flesh. It is the Spirit of God who shows us when we're asking something out of the prideful flesh, out of the covetous flesh, and when it is truly a sense of God's guidance.

Be warned in advance. Not everything you want is inspired by God. The flesh is all about itself, about our accomplishments, about our beliefs, about what we want. And what we want often produces friction and possibly even wars!

But we aren't robots. God may give us things we simply want out of a pure heart, and not out of any particular guidance. The guidance I speak of has to do with determining what our motives are, whether carnal or spiritual. Sometimes we just have to ask. Others may be of such a prophetic mind that they may only have to "command" it.

I don't know because it certainly isn't my gift. But I have seen God do a few notable things for me, without any particular "guidance." But for me to "command" God isn't really "up my alley," and seems to be somewhat irreligious if I do it.

My point was that miracles are not guaranteed

David refutes your unbelief.
He CONFIDENTLY SAID "i killed the lion and the bear. This giant will go down like the others."
IOW, HE KNEW IT.
He didn't think it, he didn't hope it, he didn't agree with your "no guarantee"
He knew it and RAN TOWARDS THAT DEVIL.
What you are demonstrating is WHY we see so little in the realm of healing.
You have resolved to set your sights on the Giant is better than God.
The entire hebrew army was "no guarantee" theology.
I showed you how standing on the word of God gets results...EVERYTIME!!!!
You disagree with mat 18;18.
You can park in the unbelief zone.
Not me....the devil goes down every time
EVERYTIME

 

[rebuilder 454]

No, that is absolutely untrue. Healing ultimately is provided for in terms of our immortalization at the resurrection. But healing cannot be guaranteed in the present environment, in the present age, because blessings are limited in a world that remains contaminated by pagans, and in a world where we ourselves continue to be infected by Sin. Christ himself, in all of his perfection, did not come to earth to be strictly blessed, free of all suffering. On the contrary, he came to ultimately die on the cross.

We are not "Saved" now in the sense we instantly become Immortal, just as we are not "healed" now in the sense we instantly become immortal. Are there differences in our physical and spiritual being when we get Saved? Of course. But this is just a down payment on the completion of our Salvation and Healing.

Dear God
What a defeated carnal hopeless mess you created, void of Gods healing promises.
Over 70 healing verses in the new testament.
You just trash piled them all.

 

[rebuilder 454]

sharing a real life miracle to a cessationist is like giving a $3000 violin to a gorilla.

 

[Randy Kluth]

A miracle by God does not need your dilution and reframing.
The Pharisees did exactly that.

All "claims" need to be tested, particularly since people are, by nature, corrupt. To use the "Pharisees" thing to shield possible deceptions is a disservice and is more a "party spirit" approach than critical thinking.

 

[Randy Kluth]

David refutes your unbelief.
He CONFIDENTLY SAID "i killed the lion and the bear. This giant will go down like the others."
IOW, HE KNEW IT.
He didn't think it, he didn't hope it, he didn't agree with your "no guarantee"
He knew it and RAN TOWARDS THAT DEVIL.
What you are demonstrating is WHY we see so little in the realm of healing.
You have resolved to set your sights on the Giant is better than God.
The entire hebrew army was "no guarantee" theology.
I showed you how standing on the word of God gets results...EVERYTIME!!!!
You disagree with mat 18;18.
You can park in the unbelief zone.
Not me....the devil goes down every time
EVERYTIME

"Dishonest John," you need to take a look around you, and take an honest look at your own life. You and your Christian friends get sick. If healing was "in the Atonement," then those Saved would never get sick. If Healing was a prescription, there would be no need for doctors. The theology of "guaranteed healing" is ludicrous and irrational.

One can believe in Supernatural Healing without thinking Healing has a fixed formula that "works every time." The only thing that works every time is "God's word," but God's word is determined *by God* and not *by us!* And we weren't given a "free card" to get anything we claim or want.

Not everything we ask for is properly "inspired." We need to walk by the Spirit, but this walk is a "war," and we are imperfect beings who fight in this war. Nothing we do will be perfect, but we can serve a perfect God. We can trust Him much more than we trust ourselves.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Dear God
What a defeated carnal hopeless mess you created, void of Gods healing promises.
Over 70 healing verses in the new testament.
You just trash piled them all.

It took me about 12 years to burn this "false faith" out of me! When you pray for something long enough, and the prayer is not answered, we should learn, at some point, that God is not going to answer the prayer!

I don't make apologies for God. But I will confess my own sins. But my sin is not my opposition to Faith Doctrine. If you don't want to believe it, fine--I have no need to try to change your mind. I simply wish to inform you of truth that can help you when you aren't feeling so confident. I don't want Christians to give up when their theology falls apart. God is there to pick up the pieces--I know.

I had all of the books on Faith Healing. I read Kenneth Hagin's biography, and financially supported Oral Roberts and a number of "Faith Healers." I've been in numerous Healing Services--my church in Anaheim had healing services every Sunday night.

I believe in Faith Healing! I don't believe a Healing Formula exists or works. I have no personal agenda--this is just what I feel Christians need to hear for their own sanity! Faith Doctrine is a false theology that claims Healing is in our control through the use of a "magic formula." That is false doctrine.

 

[Always]

King James Bible, Isaiah 53:


Is this about physical healing or spiritual healing?

Matthew understood that as both. It does not mean that we can insist on it every time that we are sick. There is no guarantee that believers will always be physically healed by his stripes. There is 100% guarantee that by his stripes, our relationship with God is always restored if we believe, 1 Peter 2:


By his stripes we are healed. Really?

Physically, sometimes. Spiritually, always.

I do believe it is for both, right now as a newly diagnosed diabetic, every insulin shot I take, I proclaim that by His stripes I am healed, and most of all I believe it. My A1C has improved dramatically, because of different eating habits and exercise, and that's because I believe that I can do all things through Christ. This was something I brought on myself, acknowledging that and attacking it back, I know that the Lord is with me, He wants us healthy physically and spiritually to minister and build up the kingdom of God.

 

[rebuilder 454]

"Dishonest John," you need to take a look around you, and take an honest look at your own life. You and your Christian friends get sick. If healing was "in the Atonement," then those Saved would never get sick. If Healing was a prescription, there would be no need for doctors. The theology of "guaranteed healing" is ludicrous and irrational.

One can believe in Supernatural Healing without thinking Healing has a fixed formula that "works every time." The only thing that works every time is "God's word," but God's word is determined *by God* and not *by us!* And we weren't given a "free card" to get anything we claim or want.

Not everything we ask for is properly "inspired." We need to walk by the Spirit, but this walk is a "war," and we are imperfect beings who fight in this war. Nothing we do will be perfect, but we can serve a perfect God. We can trust Him much more than we trust ourselves.

Gods word is true.
Your dilutants do not change the bible. However you will rob yourself of faith.

"Dishonest John," you need to take a look around you, and take an honest look at your own life. You and your Christian friends get sick. If healing was "in the Atonement," then those Saved would never get sick. If Healing was a prescription, there would be no need for doctors. The theology of "guaranteed healing" is ludicrous and irrational.

Salvation is part of the atonement.
So lets play out your human reasoning.
Under your deal, salvation fails, because if Jesus died for the world, and we see most are unsaved, then he must have only died for a few.
That is your framing and where your human reasoning takes you.
but the fact is, salvation is NOT A PASSIVE AUTOMATIC. YOU MUST ACT ON THE PROVISION.

But in your rebellion of the bible, you do exactly that to healing. You REFRAME THE BIBLE INTO "healing in my imagination ,has to be automatic" Completely misrepresenting me and the bible.
Your reasoning and error is:
"Since this...we must assume that."

OK do it. Do it to salvation as part of the new covenant.
Since all are not saved, we must ASSUME (in your imagination),salvation fails as any part of the new covenant.

do all of it to all of the bible. Be honest and consistent

 

[rebuilder 454]

It took me about 12 years to burn this "false faith" out of me! When you pray for something long enough, and the prayer is not answered, we should learn, at some point, that God is not going to answer the prayer!

I don't make apologies for God. But I will confess my own sins. But my sin is not my opposition to Faith Doctrine. If you don't want to believe it, fine--I have no need to try to change your mind. I simply wish to inform you of truth that can help you when you aren't feeling so confident. I don't want Christians to give up when their theology falls apart. God is there to pick up the pieces--I know.

I had all of the books on Faith Healing. I read Kenneth Hagin's biography, and financially supported Oral Roberts and a number of "Faith Healers." I've been in numerous Healing Services--my church in Anaheim had healing services every Sunday night.

I believe in Faith Healing! I don't believe a Healing Formula exists or works. I have no personal agenda--this is just what I feel Christians need to hear for their own sanity! Faith Doctrine is a false theology that claims Healing is in our control through the use of a "magic formula." That is false doctrine.

It took me about 12 years to burn this "false faith" out of me! When you pray for something long enough, and the prayer is not answered, we should learn, at some point, that God is not going to answer the prayer!

OK..now we found the root. You gave up. That is the reason you resist the fact that healing is promised.
You are judging Gods word by your experience.
You really need to read Job.
never give up.
You should read smith wigglesworth.
He had over 80% success rate in miraculous healing.

 

[rebuilder 454]

All "claims" need to be tested, particularly since people are, by nature, corrupt. To use the "Pharisees" thing to shield possible deceptions is a disservice and is more a "party spirit" approach than critical thinking.

tested by the word.
My testimony lines up with the Word of God.