By his stripes we are healed. Really?

[Randy Kluth]

tested by the word.
My testimony lines up with the Word of God.

An occasional answered prayer is not evidence of a Faith Formula.

 

[Randy Kluth]

OK..now we found the root. You gave up. That is the reason you resist the fact that healing is promised.
You are judging Gods word by your experience.
You really need to read Job.
never give up.
You should read smith wigglesworth.
He had over 80% success rate in miraculous healing.

Either I gave up or I got smart. I take the 2nd notion. Good luck with the 1st.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Gods word is true.
Your dilutants do not change the bible. However you will rob yourself of faith.

I define "faith" differently than you do. I have stronger faith now than I ever did. I'm just not so gullible, and I won't set fellow Christians up for failure. We may fail, but God does not.

Salvation is part of the atonement.
So lets play out your human reasoning.
Under your deal, salvation fails, because if Jesus died for the world, and we see most are unsaved, then he must have only died for a few.
That is your framing and where your human reasoning takes you.
but the fact is, salvation is NOT A PASSIVE AUTOMATIC. YOU MUST ACT ON THE PROVISION.

You utilize what's called "non sequitur" reasoning. You assume that the truths of Salvation apply exactly as the truths of Healing. They do not. You are assuming, up front, that "Healing is in the Atonement" on an equal basis. It is not.

But in your rebellion of the bible, you do exactly that to healing. You REFRAME THE BIBLE INTO "healing in my imagination ,has to be automatic" Completely misrepresenting me and the bible.
Your reasoning and error is:
"Since this...we must assume that."

No, I've shared with you what the Bible says about this. You've completely ignored my biblical evidence. Brain-washed people do not like to look at any contrary evidence. But we are encouraged to "have a reason for anyone who asks." You aren't doing that.

If you wish to assume the side of "truth," why are you unable to respond to my biblical evidence? Anything else is just, Yes it is, No it isn't. That's a complete waste of time!

 

[Randy Kluth]

sharing a real life miracle to a cessationist is like giving a $3000 violin to a gorilla.

Please, if you refer to cessationists, do not apply that to me. I'm *not* a cessationist, and I've told you that. To imply that while you and I are having this conversation is an attempt to malign me, to slander me. Don't make that mistake!

In post #31 I said this:
Well, it's a nice emotional story, but that account doesn't in the least address the points I had hoped to make with you! You sound as if you're still trying to prove miracles work? My point was that miracles are not guaranteed!
Obviously, miracles do happen for the believer who has experienced them. There are many different kinds of miracles. They are supernatural acts of a supernatural God who has unlimited power. But I'm saying something else.

Would anybody here then think that I'm a "cessationist?" Even if you wished to address others who are true cessationists, you should recognize that you were having a conversation with me, and then making this statement in that context.

If you are so brazen in your personal attack and misstatements, why should anybody believe you? Perhaps you're defining a "cessationist" as one who doesn't hold to *Faith Doctrine?* I believe that under the guidance of the Holy Spirit a minister or any individual Christian may declare a healing miracle. That is Faith Teaching, but it is not Faith Doctrine.

1 Cor 12.29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret? 31 Now eagerly desire the greater gifts.

But yes, I reject Faith Doctrine, as I'm defining it as a formula that guarantees the Christian healing the same way it guarantees him Salvation. In this case, I'm rejecting a teaching never existed in the historic church, and I've already given you the Bible on this. You're just unwilling or unable to address it.

 

[TonyChanYT]

I do believe it is for both, right now as a newly diagnosed diabetic, every insulin shot I take, I proclaim that by His stripes I am healed, and most of all I believe it. My A1C has improved dramatically, because of different eating habits and exercise, and that's because I believe that I can do all things through Christ. This was something I brought on myself, acknowledging that and attacking it back, I know that the Lord is with me, He wants us healthy physically and spiritually to minister and build up the kingdom of God.

Thanks for the testimony.

 

[marks]

King James Bible, Isaiah 53:


Is this about physical healing or spiritual healing?

Matthew understood that as both. It does not mean that we can insist on it every time that we are sick. There is no guarantee that believers will always be physically healed by his stripes. There is 100% guarantee that by his stripes, our relationship with God is always restored if we believe, 1 Peter 2:


By his stripes we are healed. Really?

Physically, sometimes. Spiritually, always.

1 Peter 2:23-25 KJV
23) Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:
24) Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
25) For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

Peter interpretted this prophecy as the healing of our relationship with God, and our inner sinfulness. By whose stripes ye are healed, for - that is, because - ye were as straying sheep, now you've returned.

Not to say that God doesn't heal, I know He does. Only, when we say, we receive healing in Jesus' shed blood, just as we receive forgiveness, then we should be able to say all who believe are healed of all things, and that's not so. Healing is a blessing God gives as it pleases Him. In Christ all receive forgiveness of sins, and new life.

Much love!

 

[Naomanos]

Not everyone that prays to be healed, is prayed for to be healed or hands laid on to be healed or anointed with oil while bineg prayed for with hands laid on will be healed.

Our guaranteed healing is spiritual healing. Being reconciled to Him. Our physical healing can happen, but not always does until we make it into incorruptible bodies.

 

[rebuilder 454]

1 Peter 2:23-25 KJV
23) Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:
24) Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
25) For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

Peter interpretted this prophecy as the healing of our relationship with God, and our inner sinfulness. By whose stripes ye are healed, for - that is, because - ye were as straying sheep, now you've returned.

Not to say that God doesn't heal, I know He does. Only, when we say, we receive healing in Jesus' shed blood, just as we receive forgiveness, then we should be able to say all who believe are healed of all things, and that's not so. Healing is a blessing God gives as it pleases Him. In Christ all receive forgiveness of sins, and new life.

Much love!

This theory is exactly why we see so little in the way of answered prayer.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Please, if you refer to cessationists, do not apply that to me. I'm *not* a cessationist, and I've told you that. To imply that while you and I are having this conversation is an attempt to malign me, to slander me. Don't make that mistake!

In post #31 I said this:
Well, it's a nice emotional story, but that account doesn't in the least address the points I had hoped to make with you! You sound as if you're still trying to prove miracles work? My point was that miracles are not guaranteed!
Obviously, miracles do happen for the believer who has experienced them. There are many different kinds of miracles. They are supernatural acts of a supernatural God who has unlimited power. But I'm saying something else.

Would anybody here then think that I'm a "cessationist?" Even if you wished to address others who are true cessationists, you should recognize that you were having a conversation with me, and then making this statement in that context.

If you are so brazen in your personal attack and misstatements, why should anybody believe you? Perhaps you're defining a "cessationist" as one who doesn't hold to *Faith Doctrine?* I believe that under the guidance of the Holy Spirit a minister or any individual Christian may declare a healing miracle. That is Faith Teaching, but it is not Faith Doctrine.

1 Cor 12.29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret? 31 Now eagerly desire the greater gifts.

But yes, I reject Faith Doctrine, as I'm defining it as a formula that guarantees the Christian healing the same way it guarantees him Salvation. In this case, I'm rejecting a teaching never existed in the historic church, and I've already given you the Bible on this. You're just unwilling or unable to address it.

"...miracles are not guaranteed"

Lets address that with salvation. It is indeed "guaranteed". But only if I LAY HOLD OF IT.

Holy living is guaranteed. But only if I operate under the guidelines of victory and the power of the Holy Spirit. (laying hold of it)

Healing was guaranteed and illustrated by the woman Jesus called a dog. She laid hold of it so beautifully, one translation has Jesus saying "you can have anything you ask"

healing and salvation are BOTH GUARANTEED. Not to doubters and those that center in experience and logic. Not to those that are unlearned of the healing verses. Not to those that see ALL THOSE VERSES AS "not Gods will" ," wrong timing", " I get to stay sick because of pauls words", "pauls words void out any hope of praying and applying Gods promises of healing"
Rather, both are only if I LAY HOLD OF IT

My bible says it is a faith walk.
my bible says w/o faith I will get nothing.
My bible is full of promises.
promises of "ask you you WILL RECIEVE".

...BUT WITH CONDITIONS.

1 Cor 12.29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret? 31 Now eagerly desire the greater gifts.

But yes, I reject Faith Doctrine, as I'm defining it as a formula that guarantees the Christian healing the same way it guarantees him Salvation. In this case, I'm rejecting a teaching never existed in the historic church, and I've already given you the Bible on this. You're just unwilling or unable to address it.

...and yet those verses do not even remotely prove God is a "maybe God"


No, all that is what i am talking about. It is you HOPING to find a verse that matches your unbelief.
And the cessationist ALWAYS DOES JUST THAT USING PAUL.
You are painting God as a "maybe God" The man of faith is like David. (the devil loses every time.)
I MEAN EVERY SINGLE TIME.
VICTORY IS SURE.

Once you realize what we have, IT IS THEN , that you will pursue it.
The man of faith is illustrated in a movie, "walking tall"
They said "Buford, you can not stop them"
He said "i will stop them"
They said "how you gonna stop them, they are too powerful"
He said "I don't know, BUT I AM GONNA STOP THEM"


cessationists NEVER invoke the authority of the believer. It is THE AUTHORITY of the BELEIVER, and the written word, that gets the job done.
Who can wield that sword??????

ONLY THE MAN OF FAITH.

 

[rebuilder 454]

No, that is absolutely untrue. Healing ultimately is provided for in terms of our immortalization at the resurrection. But healing cannot be guaranteed in the present environment, in the present age, because blessings are limited in a world that remains contaminated by pagans, and in a world where we ourselves continue to be infected by Sin. Christ himself, in all of his perfection, did not come to earth to be strictly blessed, free of all suffering. On the contrary, he came to ultimately die on the cross.

We are not "Saved" now in the sense we instantly become Immortal, just as we are not "healed" now in the sense we instantly become immortal. Are there differences in our physical and spiritual being when we get Saved? Of course. But this is just a down payment on the completion of our Salvation and Healing.

Wow, really.
Your spirit is not saved right now??????
That is another example of where you are coming from.

 

[rebuilder 454]

No, the Devil is not my favorite subject. Just like Halloween is not my favorite holiday! But yes, he has to be brought into the conversation because he is real, and an adversary must be understood if we are to resist him.

I'm never going to cover a subject completely. So there is no conspiracy here for me to leave the Devil out of this conversation! To think that is to be a bit paranoid. Criticism is something we all have to watch out for, just like watching out for the Devil.

But of course I would agree with you that the Devil is a real adversary that must be dealt with. We do need to be protected from him by putting on our spiritual armor.

Ascribing the Devil's works to God is not as bad as you make it out to be. God is omnipotent and oversees everything, including the works of the Devil. Everything the Devil does is something that God causes to happen by way of His tolerance and what might be called his "secondary will." He does will that evil beings be given opportunity to show that they are evil so that they will be judged.

You will find throughout Scriptures that God has been given credit for overseeing the works of all, righteous and unrighteous, even though God Himself is not producing evil as if it is His highest or primary will. God wishes to show all that He is righteous, just, and loving. His secondary will ultimately conforms to God's primary will in the end.

pure baloney

luke 11
9 And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.

10 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

11 If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?

12 Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion?

13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

See that?
God = good
Devil = bad

Devil = kill steal and destroy
God = life and healing

Man = bad. ascribes the power and goodness of God to the devil.
God = truth and promises salvation and devine health... but WITH CONDITIONS.

 

[rebuilder 454]

No, that is absolutely untrue. Healing ultimately is provided for in terms of our immortalization at the resurrection. But healing cannot be guaranteed in the present environment, in the present age, because blessings are limited in a world that remains contaminated by pagans, and in a world where we ourselves continue to be infected by Sin. Christ himself, in all of his perfection, did not come to earth to be strictly blessed, free of all suffering. On the contrary, he came to ultimately die on the cross.

We are not "Saved" now in the sense we instantly become Immortal, just as we are not "healed" now in the sense we instantly become immortal. Are there differences in our physical and spiritual being when we get Saved? Of course. But this is just a down payment on the completion of our Salvation and Healing.

No, that is absolutely untrue. Healing ultimately is provided for in terms of our immortalization at the resurrection. But healing cannot be guaranteed in the present environment, in the present age, because blessings are limited in a world that remains contaminated by pagans, and in a world where we ourselves continue to be infected by Sin. Christ himself, in all of his perfection, did not come to earth to be strictly blessed, free of all suffering. On the contrary, he came to ultimately die on the cross.

Under this "God is a maybe God" template, you will never know ANYTHING for sure.
IOW...no faith for answered prayer.
Do you ANY prayer a person can pray and get an answer?????

 

[rebuilder 454]

I do believe it is for both, right now as a newly diagnosed diabetic, every insulin shot I take, I proclaim that by His stripes I am healed, and most of all I believe it. My A1C has improved dramatically, because of different eating habits and exercise, and that's because I believe that I can do all things through Christ. This was something I brought on myself, acknowledging that and attacking it back, I know that the Lord is with me, He wants us healthy physically and spiritually to minister and build up the kingdom of God.

Bingo!!!
How refreshing.

Now act on that revelation. Take authority over that entity and make it leave.
Take what is yours, and stop eating the things that caused that condition

 

[rebuilder 454]

It took me about 12 years to burn this "false faith" out of me! When you pray for something long enough, and the prayer is not answered, we should learn, at some point, that God is not going to answer the prayer!

I don't make apologies for God. But I will confess my own sins. But my sin is not my opposition to Faith Doctrine. If you don't want to believe it, fine--I have no need to try to change your mind. I simply wish to inform you of truth that can help you when you aren't feeling so confident. I don't want Christians to give up when their theology falls apart. God is there to pick up the pieces--I know.

I had all of the books on Faith Healing. I read Kenneth Hagin's biography, and financially supported Oral Roberts and a number of "Faith Healers." I've been in numerous Healing Services--my church in Anaheim had healing services every Sunday night.

I believe in Faith Healing! I don't believe a Healing Formula exists or works. I have no personal agenda--this is just what I feel Christians need to hear for their own sanity! Faith Doctrine is a false theology that claims Healing is in our control through the use of a "magic formula." That is false doctrine.

promises are passive and proactive.
we enjoy a portion in the passive dynamic.
The rest is proactive.
YOU MUST LAY HOLD OF IT.

 

[rebuilder 454]

This is what i am talking about.
We all know saints get sick and die.
No brainer.
Never said they didn't and never will.
I said AS IS VIVIDLY PORTRAYED in the word that it is his will for ALL his children to be healed.
Healing is PROVIDED for.

Frame your assertions around salvation and you have the same dynamic i am saying.
Salvation provided for the entire planet by Jesus and the cross.
Healing the same.
You have never understood my position.
You are so fearful somebody is in your box, you have not seen at all what i am saying.
Jesus heals today, very strangely invokes all kinds of fear of man.
You can ,( for example) ,parade every atheist around the world. Invoke every one of them, and do so every time someone says "salvation is part of the atonement" and you will bat the air with all sorts of strange silliness, but what is your cause??????
The same with healing.
It is part of the atonement whether you parade every sick or dying saint into the mix or not...it changes nothing.
Salvation provided = IT MUST BE LAID HOLD OF.
saints dying and sick has ZERO to do with physical healing we are promised at the cross.
The same is true of communion.
Some die and are sick because they did not discern properly the body of Christ.
Does that change ANYTHING concerning the beauty and blessing of the communion table?????
Nope. It was THEIR CALL to mix sin and God.
It is our call to appropriate the promise of healing.
Same with the brass serpent. They HAD TO LOOK at it.
Salvation....conditional
Healing....conditional
Communion table ....conditional

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^THIS^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 

[Behold]

Reader,

Is the Cross a part time Redemption?

Is "Eternal Life"... Temporary?

See, SALVATiON is more then forgiven sin.. Its so much more ...

This word means "complete restoration"...... "nothing broken".. "nothing missing"...

So, within our Salvation, is spiritual wisdom, spiritual power, and God's Grace <.

What is all that?

That means that as "heirs of God", and now having become "joint Heirs with Jesus".... the born again have eternal access to all that God is, .. all that God has, and all that God can do.

The NT tells you to come to God's Throne of Grace... BOLDLY, with assurance that ABBA, FATHER, is going to help you., always.

Paul said he was "troubled on all sides" but never distressed.

The NT tells us to "Be careful for nothing"... and that means "DO NOT WORRY"< as worry is fear and fear is the opposite of faith.
So, when you have faith in fear, you block God.

Listen,

Salvation, includes Healing.

The born again are 'In Christ'.. so, is Christ sick?

But here is the thing...... this Salvation that is completed in Christ, has to be worked out, in your understanding of it.
You have to understand it RIGHT< or you misunderstand it, and that denies its power to restore and rescue you from problems.
Salvation in Christ is designed to give you eternal life and abundant life, DOWN HERE.
See, the more you understand what it means to have God's ETERNAL Redemption, the more it manifests as your complete restoration.

So, how can God do for you all that He is able, if you dont even believe that His Son's eternal sacrifice keeps you saved?
If you can't even BELIEVE the most obvious part of Eternal Salvation, then you are a long way from getting all that God has available for you...
That's not God's fault....

Reader, and its a sad fact...but "My people are DESTROYED for lack of knowledge", and that is how it works, regarding receiving all the benefits your Eternal Salvation is designed to manifest in your life., down here.
Its a fact that the less you know about your Redemption..., = the less you understand about the eternal redemption that is found in the Cross of Christ that is your Eternal Salvation, then what you dont know, allows into your life, what you dont want.

The DEVIL is looking for saved people who dont understand their ETERNAL SALVATION........= as he can harm you, because of what you don't KNOW, or Believe.
Thats a fact.

See, the Devil already has all the lost.. He's not concerned with them..
He's concerned with the born again....>How to deceive and destroy THEM...... YOU.

The DEVIL is counting on God's redeemed to not learn much about the ETERNAL Redemption that Christ has FINISHED on the Cross, so that you dont = FAITH WALK.... according to the revelation regarding what God has done for you.... and that allows the Devil access to your life.

We are told to "put on the WHOLE armor of God" = To stand against the attack of the DEVIL.

That's not a myth.
That's what is in play, down here, once you are born again.

The Armor of God, is REVELATiON KNOWLEDGE, regarding who and what you have become "IN CHRIST".

"well behold, i never heard that before".

Yes i know.

 

[rebuilder 454]

King James Bible, Isaiah 53:


Is this about physical healing or spiritual healing?

Matthew understood that as both. It does not mean that we can insist on it every time that we are sick. There is no guarantee that believers will always be physically healed by his stripes. There is 100% guarantee that by his stripes, our relationship with God is always restored if we believe, 1 Peter 2:


By his stripes we are healed. Really?

Physically, sometimes. Spiritually, always.

BTW...what is spiritual healing?

 

[TonyChanYT]

BTW...what is spiritual healing?

It is healing in our human spirit, i.e., being regenerated.

 

[marks]

This theory is exactly why we see so little in the way of answered prayer.

Um . . . speak for yourself . . .

And, there's no "theory" being presented, only Peter's interpretation of the OT prophecy. Take it or leave it. But you'll find things work a certain way, and we are not always healed, sometimes God wants us to go through the storm.

Much love!

 

[rebuilder 454]

Um . . . speak for yourself . . .

And, there's no "theory" being presented, only Peter's interpretation of the OT prophecy. Take it or leave it. But you'll find things work a certain way, and we are not always healed, sometimes God wants us to go through the storm.

Much love!

Promises of healing are conditional.
Promise of salvation is conditional.
The fact that the devil is behind sickness.
You left all that out.
Why?
That is why you are not biblical but have theories of why it does not work all the time.