By Love Serve One Another

[APAK]

Here is the full context that leaves no doubt about what this is talking about...

While it is said, To day if you will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation. For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses. But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness? And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.
Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
Heb. 3:15-19 and Heb. 4:1-2

Well I do not see your context in your post here Epi, the one that you say clearly speaks to your perfect parallel of the OT and NT gospels as both the same and both belonging in the same 'wilderness' 'lower' walk for both an Israelite, not in Christ, and one who is living in Christ's spirit today.

All I see in your post is an expansion of the scripture labels, a list of concatenated scripture verse text, without any context, explanation for meaning, or summary.

If you can provide it then please do as you intended to do. If not, or you cannot, then I can do it for you and we can then discussion the findings together.

Fair enough?

 

[Episkopos]

Well I do not see your context in your post here Epi, the one that you say clearly speaks to your perfect parallel of the OT and NT gospels as both the same and both belonging in the same 'wilderness' 'lower' walk for both an Israelite, not in Christ, and one who is living in Christ's spirit today.

All I see in your post is an expansion of the scripture labels, a list of concatenated scripture verse text, without any context, explanation for meaning, or summary.

If you can provide it then please do as you intended to do. If not, or you cannot, then I can do it for you and we can then discussion the findings together.

Fair enough?

I think we all know our positions and how they differ. There will always be a spectrum when it comes to understanding the bible., There are different depths to understanding....or not understanding. As for me...I'm amazed that anyone can't see what is so obvious. For example.

"And if some of the branches be broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them partakes of the root and fatness of the olive tree; Boast not against the branches. But if you boast, you bears not the root, but the root thee. You will say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not you." Rom 11

Here is another example of we Gentiles being no different than the Israelites and Jews before us. We are all human after all. I think it is arrogant in the extreme to think we are better than the people who went before us. We have the very same challenge that the bible testimony can help us with...if we are humble and teachable.

And most will skim over the "fear" admonitions without giving it a second thought...a real disaster. Few obey the scriptures or align their thinking with the gospel...and the truth.

So then what do others here think??? Let's hear from others....

 

[marks]

And most will skim over the "fear" admonitions without giving it a second thought...a real disaster. Few obey the scriptures or align their thinking with the gospel...and the truth.

So then what do others here think??? Let's hear from others....

I think it's another case of you bringing false accusations against those who disagree with you, to attempt to both discredit them, and rile them up, so you can feed on the controversy. I've seen it in your threads many times.

There is a difference between Law and Grace, between the covenant at Mt. Horeb, and the new covenant, which you blur, to your detriment.

That's what I think.

Much love!

 

[Episkopos]

I think it's another case of you bringing false accusations against those who disagree with you, to attempt to both discredit them, and rile them up, so you can feed on the controversy. I've seen it in your threads many times.

There is a difference between Law and Grace, between the covenant at Mt. Horeb, and the new covenant, which you blur, to your detriment.

That's what I think.

Much love!

What you are really saying is that there is a difference between a Jew or an ancient Israelite ...and modern Western believers...that somehow we are superior or that God favours us more. But God NEVER changes. He always tests the human the same way...on whatever level we are at. The new and living way is not an easier covenant...but a power that we enter into by faith...IF we have actual faith...a faith that moves mountains...and God. The variable is not God...but us. We will probably do the very same thing that the Israelites did...the natural branches...because we lack faith. Sure, we have loads of beliefs and ideological preferences...but faith??? A faith that God accepts gets us translated into the higher kingdom walk. It isn't for nothing that the faith chapter (Heb. 11) mentions Enoch...who PLEASED God with his faith...and God took him. Should people get offended at that?

When you get grace wrong, you get the gospel wrong, and Jesus wrong. Grace is NOT preferential treatment of some over others...no it is an engagement in a higher risk race where we can either benefit more or suffer more.

But we have to factor in an arrogant hubris...in the uncrucified and unbroken...based on pride and a lack of understanding God's righteousness. The parallel is perfect...so that the bible is much more than a historical account of "inferior" believers. We are the wild branches...not the original branches, and we stand only by having the kind of faith that they lacked...the faith to believe the impossible...like walking as Jesus walked...without sin...in the higher kingdom walk in the perfection of Christ. So the rubber meets the road as we either accept the impossible ways of God...by grace...or else do as the Israelites did and reject the good report of the "spies" who have been in the Promised Land and believe God. As such both Joshua and Caleb were as evangelists or prophets sharing their testimony with the congregation. Were they accepted? Of course not. So my testimony will be likewise rejected. Look to yourselves and your reaction to what you deem God can or can't do.

What you call "false accusations" is biblical truth. One would have to read the bible without the preference or self-esteem that privilege demands.

I just post the truth as written out plainly in scriptures. Then the religious egos react to that. When I call that out I'm accused of bringing condemnation...on what? The ego? Of course you think God is pro-ego in believers...as if He was a respecter of persons. But its better to dispel that myth now while there is still time to repent and actually progress in the race of faith.

I do this because I would want others to help me if I was the one in the bondage of a delusional ideology. So then my mission is one of mercy and truth...with love for others. Because I am rejected for that, doesn't change the truth one iota.

 

[Lizbeth]

Well I do not see your context in your post here Epi, the one that you say clearly speaks to your perfect parallel of the OT and NT gospels as both the same and both belonging in the same 'wilderness' 'lower' walk for both an Israelite, not in Christ, and one who is living in Christ's spirit today.

All I see in your post is an expansion of the scripture labels, a list of concatenated scripture verse text, without any context, explanation for meaning, or summary.

If you can provide it then please do as you intended to do. If not, or you cannot, then I can do it for you and we can then discussion the findings together.

Fair enough?

Epi is conveniently overlooking something here... wonder why he stopped at Heb 4:2 and left out Heb 4:3 which says clearly "we who have believed do enter that rest". Those verses are all clearly talking about the gospel....speaking to the Jews about needing faith to enter the rest of God, ie, needing faith to receive the gospel - of ceasing from their own works which were by the Law.. Israel under the Law on the whole failed to accept Jesus and His gospel, thus failed to enter that rest, as those verses are saying...foretold in the OT verses that are being quoted there in Heb 4 It's all about the need to receive the gospel by faith.

 

[Episkopos]

Why do believers find it so difficult that God requires repentance in order to be justified by Him? There is no revival without a deep repentance that admits to arrogance, pride and religious hubris. This is by the Spirit bringing conviction on those whom God shows mercy. The ego apart from that conviction will react violently to any message that sounds like the religious effort of the believer is not enough or errant. Rather than attacking God directly, these do so by attacking the one bringing the warning. God is watching.

The Ninevites repented and saved themselves. Why not "believers"?

 

[Lizbeth]

What you are really saying is that there is a difference between a Jew or an ancient Israelite ...and modern Western believers...that somehow we are superior or that God favours us more. But God NEVER changes. He always tests the human the same way...on whatever level we are at. The new and living way is not an easier covenant...but a power that we enter into by faith...IF we have actual faith...a faith that moves mountains...and God. The variable is not God...but us. We will probably do the very same thing that the Israelites did...the natural branches...because we lack faith. Sure, we have loads of beliefs and ideological preferences...but faith??? A faith that God accepts gets us translated into the higher kingdom walk. It isn't for nothing that the faith chapter (Heb. 11) mentions Enoch...who PLEASED God with his faith...and God took him. Should people get offended at that?

When you get grace wrong, you get the gospel wrong. and Jesus wrong. Grace is NOT preferential treatment of some over others...no it is an engagement in a higher risk race where we can either benefit more or suffer more.

But we have to factor in an arrogant hubris...in the uncrucified and unbroken...based on pride and a lack of understanding God's righteousness. The parallel is perfect...so that the bible is much more than a historical account of "inferior" believers. We are the wild branches...not the original branches, and we stand only by having the kind of faith that they lacked...the faith to believe the impossible...like walking as Jesus walked...without sin...the higher kingdom walk in the perfection of Christ. So the rubber meets the road as we either accept the impossible ways of God...by grace...or else do as the Israelites did and reject the good report of the "spies" who have been in the Promised Land and believe God. As such both Joshua and Caleb were as evangelists or prophets sharing their testimony with the congregation. Were they accepted? Of course not. So my testimony will be likewise rejected. Look to yourselves and your reaction to what you deem God can or can't do.

What you call "false accusations" is biblical truth. One would have to red the bible without the preference or self-esteem that privilege demands.

I just post the truth as written out plainly in scriptures. Then the religious egos react to that. When I call that out I'm accused of bringing condemnation...on what? The ego? Of course you think God is pro-ego in believers...as if He was a respecter of persons. But its better to dispel that myth now while there is still time to repent and actually progress in the race of faith.

I do this because I would want others to help me if I was the one in the bondage of a delusional ideology. So then my mission is one of mercy and truth...with love for others. Because I am rejected for that, doesn't change the truth one iota.

Sure do gratefully accept the impossible and the undeserved, unspeakable gift. But unfortunately you are the one denying it....you would undermine the gospel and people's FAITH in it. Can't help but wonder whether you are fallen from grace or never had it to begin with.

So sad that you resort to framing this as some sort of competition between Jew and Gentile.

 

[Lizbeth]

Why do believers find it so difficult that God required repentance in order to be justified by Him? There is no revival without a deep repentance that admits to arrogance, pride and religious hubris. This is by the Spirit bringing conviction on those whom God shows mercy. The ego apart from that conviction will react violently to any message that sounds like the religious effort of the believer is not enough or errant. Rather than attacking God directly, these do so by attacking the one bringing the warning. God is watching.

The Ninevites repented and saved themselves. Why not "believers"?

No problem with repentance at all. On the contrary.

 

[marks]

What you are really saying is that there is a difference between a Jew or an ancient Israelite ...and modern Western believers...that somehow we are superior or that God favours us more. But God NEVER changes.

No, that's not at all what I'm saying. I've said nothing about people then or now. I've said nothing about Jewish or Western. I've said nothing about anyone being favored over others.

You have fabricated these things in an apparent attempt to misguide others and discredit me. I made a very simple statement concerning the covenants.

You've done as you generally do. You've set up a straw man. Though you claim you are into truth. But by your very words in the very same post I see that is not so.

~ I'll expand a bit on my actual statement.

There is a difference between the covenant of law and obedience that God made with Israel at Mt. Horeb, and the new covenant in Christ's blood, which He shed for all. These are such completely and radically different covenants that when you attempt to import the terms of the covenant of law and obedience that God made with Israel into the grace God gives to all through Christ's death and resurrection it is completely irreconcileable.

God never changes, but Jesus' death changed everything. And His resurrection.

You assert that the new covenant should be understood to parallel the old covenant to the degree that it becomes defined by the old covenant. That the Israelites in the wilderness are just like the New Covenant Christian, and that is not true. These things are written for our examples, but they are not our definition. The New Testament teaches us these things in specific detail.

Much love!

 

[Episkopos]

Sure do gratefully accept the impossible and the undeserved, unspeakable gift.

What gift are you speaking of...a gift for reading the bible? A gift for accepting a human scheme that makes beliefs to be the same as faith? There is way too much assuming and presuming going on. The unspeakable gift is to walk in the power that resurrected Jesus from the dead...resurrection life...eternal life...that NO ONE deserves. It is an unspeakable gift. But to think that means that God prefers some people over others based on accepting a religious ideology? Preposterous.

But unfortunately you are the one denying it....you would undermine the gospel and people's FAITH in it.

I seek to dispel human beliefs...religious posturing in order to discover a true faith...that God accepts. We are so busy accepting Jesus for our own use that most have never considered that we need to be accepted by God. Our faith is accepted as we are "translated into His dear Son". That's how we experience justification and salvation. Anything less than that is just a religious conjecture. One has to take God more seriously to dispel the human myths and fables. But all the warnings and prophecies of this tendency are found in the bible...with the help of the Spirit that directs those warnings to a person....personally. Otherwise we tend to justify ourselves.

Can't help but wonder whether you are fallen from grace or never had it to begin with.

Speculate away I was never indoctrinated into a religious ideology...I started out by a New Covenant walk in the Spirit.

So sad that you resort to framing this as some sort of competition between Jew and Gentile.

I'm not doing that. I'm trying to stop religious egos from doing that very thing. My contention is that we are all THE SAME. As usual you get things exactly backward. Did you not also consider yourself to have a superior faith to the Israelites who witnessed God's real miracles. Delusions abound. They believed in God...just not that He would do the impossible. They didn't trust God with their lives since those lives were constantly at risk. AND they hated God's hard training. They thought God had it in for them...and He did ...as long as they hung onto their carnal outer man with his murmurings and unbelief.

We tend to get things backwards in regards to God. I say "we" as in all of humanity. We hate the hard training and hard standard that holiness imposes on us. But we all like to be molly-coddled and accepted.

The disciple of Christ learns to love being abased in the outer man...embraces the cross and its power to destroy human hubris...and puts NO confidence in the carnal ways that those who look for good for themselves use. The result is acceptance with God.

 

[marks]

Why do believers find it so difficult that God requires repentance in order to be justified by Him? There is no revival without a deep repentance that admits to arrogance, pride and religious hubris. This is by the Spirit bringing conviction on those whom God shows mercy. The ego apart from that conviction will react violently to any message that sounds like the religious effort of the believer is not enough or errant. Rather than attacking God directly, these do so by attacking the one bringing the warning. God is watching.

The Ninevites repented and saved themselves. Why not "believers"?

Why do you repeat the same presumptions against others whom you do not know, and are not fit to judge? You slander others with a broad brush, arrogant, prideful, filled with hubris, do you think you are pleasing God?

Because you are right about this, He is watching.

Much love!

 

[Episkopos]

No problem with repentance at all. On the contrary.

No problem with fearing God either I surmise...at least in theory.

 

[APAK]

Does this really need a response...your uncharitable ways are showing...the Dr. Jekyll / Mr. Hyde aspect of your persona at it again.


Jesus said that very few would be able to enter into the kingdom of God through the narrow door...and that many will try and fail. To most modern believers that is intolerable...as people want to make up their own minds if they are saved or not. And most are unable to bear the truth about sanctification. Your very hostility to the truth of the higher walk shows this carnal apprehension in living colour...as do the responses of those who take shelter behind a religious certainty that makes God an easy touch.

The truth is that we ought to fear...as it says SO often in the NT. Those verses will ALWAYS be ignored ...to be disregarded by the dominating carnal outer religious man...now puffed up in thinking that salvation is "in the bag".

The irony is that the part of people that resists the truth because they think they have nothing to fear...needs to go to the cross in order to enter into the mystery of the faith...which is the higher walk in the Spirit.


That rest for the Israelites was the Promised Land...not some zen-like state. It was a PHYSICAL place...Canaan.

Our entering into God's rest is in a spiritual place...Zion in the heavenly abiding which is in Christ.

First the natural...THEN the spiritual. Unless you understand that the NT is about spiritual things..locations entered into through Christ...then you will fail to understand the bible.

The carnal mind cannot receive spiritual things. So then a scheme is conjured up that is based very loosely on the bible...conveniently ignoring things like trembling before God and fearing that we too will end up just like the people who went before us...which is basically happening in real time. They were NOT repentant...and as we see the story continues.


All of the Israelites were believers....they just lacked faith. Did they believe it was God who led them in the wilderness? YES..of course. They saw the mighty works of God first-hand. They were ALL believers in God. BUT.....they didn't trust that God was giving them something good...that they would benefit from what God wanted...so they lacked trust in God...and faith in His character. They saw His hard training and assumed that God had an evil intent for them...and He did if we are speaking of their religiously puffed up egos and rebellious ways. The outer man will ALWAYS the resist the Spirit. So God was trying to save them....away from their carnal state...but the people thought that the death that God wanted for them...that gives them life...had no good end. So then their faith was overthrown. They believed in God...but didn't trust Him with their lives. History continues to repeat itself.

The modern version of this is to make up a god in our own minds...one that puts us (the ego-driven persona) on a pedestal. So then the Israelites at least could testify to actual interventions by God...without all the pretending. So in some ways we are worse than they were. But what we share in common with them is the lack of faith that makes us unable to enter into God's rest.


Not a zen-like experience but an actual translation into the spiritual realm. You are more eastern mystical in your approach...but the Hebrews are VERY practical. If Paul says he is seated in heavenly places...that's not a metaphor or vain philosophy.

There is a big difference between having beliefs and having faith. Beliefs don't cost us anything...they are basically opinions. But we are not saved by beliefs or opinions...but by God's power and faith. We are saved INTO a place..in Christ...where there is NO sin...just God's holy presence. THAT is the gospel in full resolution. Salvation is about walking in the perfection of Christ NOW. Put on Christ....put on the New Man...and have victory over sin, the flesh, the devil and the world.....to walk as Jesus walked.

@Episkopos another round of useless, creative pure gibberish Epi. You have no intention on explaining anything. The same nonsensical dribble as always without any indication you want a discussion about your personal doctrine. And now I know you do not know scripture. You keep (mis)using parts of it for your false doctrine prop or your crux. Incredible...

You are misunderstanding Heb 4:1-3 when I used the words 'introduces the concept of entering God’s rest, which is not a physical location but a spiritual state of peace and fulfillment.' The author was introducing the present rest of today of/in Christ, not introducing the 3500 year-old 'rest'. Why would he do that as he had already spoken of it as a backdrop tot he present. He speaks to the real rest in God of a spiritual nature and not of the physical Canaan territory that was the Israelite tribal reality of rest. And he concludes this introduction in verse 11.

(Heb 4:1) Therefore, while the promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any one of you should seem to have failed to attain it.
(Heb 4:2) For indeed we have had good tidings preached to us, even as also they did; but the word they heard did not benefit them, because it was not united by faith with them that heard it.
(Heb 4:3) For we who have believed do enter into that rest, even as He has said: As I swore in my anger: They shall not enter into My rest, although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
(Heb 4:4) For He has spoken in a certain place of the seventh day in this way: And God rested on the seventh day from all His works.
(Heb 4:5) And in this place again: They shall not enter into My rest.
(Heb 4:6) Seeing therefore it remains that some should enter therein, and they to whom the good tidings were earlier preached failed to enter in because of disobedience;
(Heb 4:7) He again defines a certain day, a today, saying through David a long time afterwards (in the words already quoted): Today, if you shall hear His voice, harden not your hearts.
(Heb 4:8) For if Joshua had given them rest, He would not have spoken afterward of another day.
(Heb 4:9) There remains therefore a Sabbath rest for the people of God.
(Heb 4:10) For he that is entered into His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His.
(Heb 4:11) Let us therefore give diligence to enter into that rest, that no one fall by the same kind of disobedience.

I hope you now understand the point I was making.

I see the 'fear and trembling' hammer is still in use. I will have to write a post for you on it, regardless whether you read it or not. I believe you also have this all wrong.....pretty sure...

//

@Lizbeth I just realized that the draft I was muddling over this morning to Epi (post 91) went prime time by accident without my conscious knowledge....I remember answering your post in the middle of writing it ...they then were both launched together in the same post...oh well. The draft was a little off at that time as I was in a hurry when you pinged me....I'm glad though it was sent, as it keeps the conversation alive!

 

[APAK]

Epi is conveniently overlooking something here... wonder why he stopped at Heb 4:2 and left out Heb 4:3 which says clearly "we who have believed do enter that rest". Those verses are all clearly talking about the gospel....speaking to the Jews about needing faith to enter the rest of God, ie, needing faith to receive the gospel - of ceasing from their own works which were by the Law.. Israel under the Law on the whole failed to accept Jesus and His gospel, thus failed to enter that rest, as those verses are saying...foretold in the OT verses that are being quoted there in Heb 4 It's all about the need to receive the gospel by faith.

Funny you said this... as I just launched a point back to Epi that covers this subject indirectly. He does not understand it...I hope he gets it...

 

[APAK]

I think we all know our positions and how they differ. There will always be a spectrum when it comes to understanding the bible., There are different depths to understanding....or not understanding. As for me...I'm amazed that anyone can't see what is so obvious. For example.

"And if some of the branches be broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them partakes of the root and fatness of the olive tree; Boast not against the branches. But if you boast, you bears not the root, but the root thee. You will say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not you." Rom 11

Here is another example of we Gentiles being no different than the Israelites and Jews before us. We are all human after all. I think it is arrogant in the extreme to think we are better than the people who went before us. We have the very same challenge that the bible testimony can help us with...if we are humble and teachable.

And most will skim over the "fear" admonitions without giving it a second thought...a real disaster. Few obey the scriptures or align their thinking with the gospel...and the truth.

So then what do others here think??? Let's hear from others....

I will follow up on your post with some study on the subject of 'fear' and even 'trembling' that you do not explain anywhere in your posts; those you highlight in larger letters of scripture. It's a shame you cannot express your view of parts of scripture as a commentary,

I do suspect you have an unbiblical approach to its meaning as you constantly use it as a hammer in an attempt to ward off those who might disagree with your doctrine, or who are getting too close to exposing your truth. I remember one R. Catholic using a similar tactic that never really worked well for him.

 

[APAK]

@Episkopos so what does Phil 2:12-13 mean to you Epi?

(Php 2:12) So then, my beloved, even as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
(Php 2:13) For it is God who works in you, both to will and to work, for His good pleasure.

 

[APAK]

@Episkopos so what does Phil 2:12-13 mean to you Epi?

(Php 2:12) So then, my beloved, even as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
(Php 2:13) For it is God who works in you, both to will and to work, for His good pleasure.

@Episkopos I was trying to see if you could start and answer my question here first, and then I thought about it some more, that it might fall by the wayside because as of today you have not directly answered any scripture I've posed in this direct short form. It should be quite simple. And then you might also be busy so I will start off to give you something to chew on.

I will just look first as the fearful expression, 'fear and trembling' of verse 12b. And in so doing this will answer verse 2 and a bit of the local context provided by Paul.

The expression 'fear and trembling' in Phil 2;12b, is an idiom not to be taken literally.

Its meaning can be seem in the next verse. It is the spirit of God through his Son's spirit within him and thus with us who is working. It's His Spirit that is impressing His will and his holy work onto us, into our life's walk for his benefit, because he desires it.

This calls for not real fear of losing one's salvation at all as some quickly point out without basis. Or that God is ready to judge and then reject us. Another faulty view as they look back at the fall of the Israelites in their unfaithfulness. And it also does not mean to physically or mentally suffer with emotional scars and permanent stress, like some extreme hermit monks of the past. It is non of this.

It is to mean we should always be aware that our rebirth is something real and holy, really divine, occurring inside of us now. It is God himself who is present within us, and we are on his holy ground. We are part of his building he is still constructing with his Son in charge over it. We had better then be showing a fair amount of deep reverence and soberness in our holy duties, for the truth, of always telling the truth in all matters, to be opening and brutally honest to every one whether they are a friend or foe. To believe in strong faith that we are a vessel of his temple, of his Kingdom today.

Our heart needs to stay wide open and focused to know the will of God. He is counting on us to do all this and more. This is the type of fear and trembling we should instill in us and make it a life-long habit as we are being saved today in the righteousness and the holiness of God, by the faith he installed within us for the start of this holy journey or 'race' for the Pauline prize.

Now if would be contradictory for this idiom to mean the real installation of fear into people and that their salvation may be in jeopardy; especially when some of Paul's other exhortations point to having the peace of mind, courage and confidence in God who designed and authored our salvation, way before we born and even chosen.

 

[Episkopos]

@Episkopos I was trying to see if you could start and answer my question here first, and then I thought about it some more, that it might fall by the wayside because as of today you have not directly answered any scripture I've posed in this direct short form. It should be quite simple. And then you might also be busy so I will start off to give you something to chew on.

I will just look first as the fearful expression, 'fear and trembling' of verse 12b. And in so doing this will answer verse 2 and a bit of the local context provided by Paul.

The expression 'fear and trembling' in Phil 2;12b, is an idiom not to be taken literally.

Its meaning can be seem in the next verse. It is the spirit of God through his Son's spirit within him and thus with us who is working. It's His Spirit that is impressing His will and his holy work onto us, into our life's walk for his benefit, because he desires it.

This calls for not real fear of losing one's salvation at all as some quickly point out without basis. Or that God is ready to judge and then reject us. Another faulty view as they look back at the fall of the Israelites in their unfaithfulness. And it also does not mean to physically or mentally suffer with emotional scars and permanent stress, like some extreme hermit monks of the past. It is non of this.

It is to mean we should always be aware that our rebirth is something real and holy, really divine, occurring inside of us now. It is God himself who is present within us, and we are on his holy ground. We are part of his building he is still constructing with his Son in charge over it. We had better then be showing a fair amount of deep reverence and soberness in our holy duties, for the truth, of always telling the truth in all matters, to be opening and brutally honest to every one whether they are a friend or foe. To believe in strong faith that we are a vessel of his temple, of his Kingdom today.

Our heart needs to stay wide open and focused to know the will of God. He is counting on us to do all this and more. This is the type of fear and trembling we should instill in us and make it a life-long habit as we are being saved today in the righteousness and the holiness of God, by the faith he installed within us for the start of this holy journey or 'race' for the Pauline prize.

Now if would be contradictory for this idiom to mean the real installation of fear into people and that their salvation may be in jeopardy; especially when some of Paul's other exhortations point to having the peace of mind, courage and confidence in God who designed and authored our salvation, way before we born and even chosen.

You have decided that the biblical text doesn't mean what it says....an idiom??? You change the meaning of words in order to preserve a text that you have no understanding of the depth thereof. But you can dismiss the warnings all you want. People will try various techniques to do so. Many just ignore the text where it comes to a warning that God does not abide the carnal ideas we come up with.

Rather, we should be submitted to the words from God. If we can't agree on the meaning of words, there is nothing more to say.

The fear of the Lord is still the beginning of wisdom.

The bible is made up of words meant to convey eternal truth. If we change the meaning of words we get a lie.

 

[Lizbeth]

What gift are you speaking of...a gift for reading the bible? A gift for accepting a human scheme that makes beliefs to be the same as faith? There is way too much assuming and presuming going on. The unspeakable gift is to walk in the power that resurrected Jesus from the dead...resurrection life...eternal life...that NO ONE deserves. It is an unspeakable gift. But to think that means that God prefers some people over others based on accepting a religious ideology? Preposterous.



I seek to dispel human beliefs...religious posturing in order to discover a true faith...that God accepts. We are so busy accepting Jesus for our own use that most have never considered that we need to be accepted by God. Our faith is accepted as we are "translated into His dear Son". That's how we experience justification and salvation. Anything less than that is just a religious conjecture. One has to take God more seriously to dispel the human myths and fables. But all the warnings and prophecies of this tendency are found in the bible...with the help of the Spirit that directs those warnings to a person....personally. Otherwise we tend to justify ourselves.


Speculate away I was never indoctrinated into a religious ideology...I started out by a New Covenant walk in the Spirit.

I'm not doing that. I'm trying to stop religious egos from doing that very thing. My contention is that we are all THE SAME. As usual you get things exactly backward. Did you not also consider yourself to have a superior faith to the Israelites who witnessed God's real miracles. Delusions abound. They believed in God...just not that He would do the impossible. They didn't trust God with their lives since those lives were constantly at risk. AND they hated God's hard training. They thought God had it in for them...and He did ...as long as they hung onto their carnal outer man with his murmurings and unbelief.

We tend to get things backwards in regards to God. I say "we" as in all of humanity. We hate the hard training and hard standard that holiness imposes on us. But we all like to be molly-coddled and accepted.

The disciple of Christ learns to love being abased in the outer man...embraces the cross and its power to destroy human hubris...and puts NO confidence in the carnal ways that those who look for good for themselves use. The result is acceptance with God.

 

[APAK]

You have decided that the biblical text doesn't mean what it says....an idiom??? You change the meaning of words in order to preserve a text that you have no understanding of the depth thereof. But you can dismiss the warnings all you want. People will try various techniques to do so. Many just ignore the text where it comes to a warning that God does not abide the carnal ideas we come up with.

Rather, we should be submitted to the words from God. If we can't agree on the meaning of words, there is nothing more to say.

The fear of the Lord is still the beginning of wisdom.

The bible is made up of words meant to convey eternal truth. If we change the meaning of words we get a lie.

It would be obvious that this expression of note is an idiom to any scholar of the word. If and when you decide to give up your usual rattle of a typical condescending tune and nature, you might learn something of value in your walk.

And further, I have not changed the spirit and intent of Paul's words at all.

You did know that Paul used the same exact expression in 2 Cor 7:15. A description of Titus and his positive impression when he met with the Corinthians. They received him with phobos kai tromos or in fear and trembling Epi.

It is not an expression used for literal fear for their lives, of their souls or of a stressful situation as I already pointed out to you; . and that this expression only applies to God. It does not! I think you need to reexamine and readjust your 'expert' rating in understanding scripture back down to a novice level, and admit you still are in need of much learning, It take some courage and humility to do that of course.

Paul again used the very same expression in Eph 6:5 Epi, and this points to exactly what I initially said it describes in my first note on this subject. It is the sincerity of the heart, the truthfulness of the heart to others as a form of obedience...I could go on as you might know....

So, you must decide whether to stop with your childish religious gibberish that lacks for all intensive purposes, any meaningful substance that anyone can learn or appreciate from.

Humble yourself for a change and admit you do not understand scripture as you think you might Epi.

My words here do convey eternal truth as the Spirit guides me every step in my walk when I write here in a state of phobos kai tromos!