CALVINISM: The height of Spiritual depravity

[Red Baker]

Just what it says. God got angry with Israel and God told David to number them.

Greetings Ronald, my point in mentioning David is this: When it is said that God moved David to number Israel, is that the same as God harden David's spirit? If not, then it is very close. God is not under obligation to soften our hearts toward him and if he left us to ourselves then our hearts/spirit naturally becomes hard.

God did not tell David to number Israel, David chose to do so. It was an act of pride in trusting in numbers instead of trusting God. God punished David for doing so, he would not have done so, if he told David to number Israel.

Any thoughts?

 

[Robert Pate]

Robert, I agree with almost everything you said here, but one main thing which I highlighted.

All that are in Christ are as righteous as he is in their new man which has been created after the image of Jesus Christ. which man cannot sin!


Yes, the old man (that is, our flesh) is still with us, that keeps us from perfectly doing the will of God even in our most holy duties, sin is mixed with all we do. Yet, it is not the new man but sin that liveth in us, that causes us to know that we are in ourselves by nature wretched sinners living in a body of sin and death. So then with the mind (the new man) I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh (the old man) the law of sin.

Fallen man has no righteousness that God will Accept. If you believe that you have, it is because you are religious.

Better start thinking about what you are going to say when you stand before a holy God.

 

[Ritajanice]

1 John 3:9​

9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.

Commentary.​

I AM THE HOLY SPIRIT, GOD’S SEED​

Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His (God’s) seed remains in him;
and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.
1 John 3:9
I, the Holy Spirit, am the Seed who was planted in your life when you were born again. It was My presence that gave you eternal life, as well as a new nature and new desires. Just as a seed planted in the ground will grow and bring forth its fruit, so I, the Holy Spirit am the Seed planted in your heart who will bring forth the fruit of righteousness and godliness. A seed has all the ingredients of what it will be when fully grown, and I, the Holy Spirit, have everything you need to be completely godly and fully effective as My servant.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Sorry I don’t agree...my old man was crucified with Christ..I’m in the new man..that new man is Christ..

I’m not in the natural man..or the flesh, I’m in the Spirit.

​

◄ Romans 8:9 ►

​

Verse (Click for Chapter) King James Bible But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. New King James Version But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. American Standard Version But ye are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you. But if any man hath not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. Berean Study Bible You, however, are controlled not by the flesh, but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.

​

◄ Romans 6:6 ►

​

Audio Crossref Comment Greek Verse (Click for Chapter) New International Version For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin— New Living Translation We know that our old sinful selves were crucified with Christ so that sin might lose its power in our lives. We are no longer slaves to sin. English Standard Version We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. Berean Standard Bible We know that our old self was crucified with Him so that the body of sin might be rendered powerless, that we should no longer be slaves to sin.

 

[Robert Pate]

1 John 3:9​

9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.

Commentary.​

I AM THE HOLY SPIRIT, GOD’S SEED​

Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His (God’s) seed remains in him;
and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.
1 John 3:9
I, the Holy Spirit, am the Seed who was planted in your life when you were born again. It was My presence that gave you eternal life, as well as a new nature and new desires. Just as a seed planted in the ground will grow and bring forth its fruit, so I, the Holy Spirit am the Seed planted in your heart who will bring forth the fruit of righteousness and godliness. A seed has all the ingredients of what it will be when fully grown, and I, the Holy Spirit, have everything you need to be completely godly and fully effective as My servant.

Faith is given to those that hear and believe the Gospel, Romans 10:17. No Gospel, no faith.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Sorry I don’t agree...my old man was crucified with Christ..I’m in the new man..that new man is Christ..

I’m not in the natural man..or the flesh, I’m in the Spirit.

​

◄ Romans 8:9 ►

​

Verse (Click for Chapter) King James Bible But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. New King James Version But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. American Standard Version But ye are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you. But if any man hath not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. Berean Study Bible You, however, are controlled not by the flesh, but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.

​

◄ Romans 6:6 ►

​

Audio Crossref Comment Greek Verse (Click for Chapter) New International Version For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin— New Living Translation We know that our old sinful selves were crucified with Christ so that sin might lose its power in our lives. We are no longer slaves to sin. English Standard Version We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. Berean Standard Bible We know that our old self was crucified with Him so that the body of sin might be rendered powerless, that we should no longer be slaves to sin.

Never said you were controlled by the flesh. But we all live in the old man from time to time.

If you carefully look at Pauls epistles, you will see him encourage believers to deny the old man. Why? Because we are hard wired to sin and our natural inclination is to sin. You call it the old mindset, but that is just a word game to say the flesh.

Romans 12

King James Version

​

12 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Wherever we are not transformed, we are conformed. When we got saved, god did not remove every habit of sin instantly. It is a process of unlearning the sinful old mindset and learn th enew holy mindset.

John made it clear if we believe we no longer sin:

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Do not take my word for it. Go to bible hub or blue letter bible and study the verses in the original languages and see that Scripture is NOT talking about the occasional times we all fall into sin, but living a lifestyle of sin.

 

[Ritajanice]

Never said you were controlled by the flesh. But we all live in the old man from time to time.

If you carefully look at Pauls epistles, you will see him encourage believers to deny the old man. Why? Because we are hard wired to sin and our natural inclination is to sin. You call it the old mindset, but that is just a word game to say the flesh.

Romans 12​

​

King James Version​

​

​

12 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Wherever we are not transformed, we are conformed. When we got saved, god did not remove every habit of sin instantly. It is a process of unlearning the sinful old mindset and learn th enew holy mindset.

John made it clear if we believe we no longer sin:

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Do not take my word for it. Go to bible hub or blue letter bible and study the verses in the original languages and see that Scripture is NOT talking about the occasional times we all fall into sin, but living a lifestyle of sin.

We live in the old mindset that is being renewed.

If one has been Born Again of imperishable/ incorruptible seed...

It’s impossible to sin....remember, you and I don’t agree on what imperishable seed means?

I didn’t have to look that up online, I knew that I was Born Again of imperishable seed from day one....the seed that was placed in my heart by God, was the Holy Spirit, I also received God given faith as well, because God gave it and planted it in my heart, it has flourished and grown.....I’m unrecognisable as the person I used to be....the mighty power of God is at work in my heart, he never stops....he will finish what he started...my testimony and belief.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

And David got disciplined by the Lord for doing so.

Actually not in this case. David numbered or censused Israel twice. One in obedience to God and once in obedience to Satan.

2 Samuel 24:1
And again the anger of the Lord was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.

1 Chronicles 21

King James Version

​

21 And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.
2 And David said to Joab and to the rulers of the people, Go, number Israel from Beersheba even to Dan; and bring the number of them to me, that I may know it.

 

[Red Baker]

Faith is given to those that hear and believe the Gospel, Romans 10:17.

Robert, you are not making biblically sense.

The truth is this: God first must regenerate a sinner who is dead in tresspasses and sin. Once a man is quickened to life, (born again) from that point forward they have the power to believe the gospel with the new man within them, but not until then. Sir, so many scriptures will prove this truth: Romans 8:5-9; John 1:12,13; John 5:24; etc.

No Gospel, no faith.

Actually, not born again, no faith~the gospel is only the source of information concerning the gospel of Jesus Christ ~ wherein, the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith........... or, from a person who has faith, to another person who has faith, and that faith is the gift of God on the behalf of Jesus Christ.

Philippians 1:28,29~"And in nothing terrified by your adversaries: which is to them an evident token of perdition, but to you of salvation, and that of God. For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;"

May the Lord be pleased to give you spiritual eyes to see these blessed truths.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Greetings Ronald, my point in mentioning David is this: When it is said that God moved David to number Israel, is that the same as God harden David's spirit? If not, then it is very close. God is not under obligation to soften our hearts toward him and if he left us to ourselves then our hearts/spirit naturally becomes hard.

God did not tell David to number Israel, David chose to do so. It was an act of pride in trusting in numbers instead of trusting God. God punished David for doing so, he would not have done so, if he told David to number Israel.

Any thoughts?

2 Samuel 24

King James Version

​

24 And again the anger of the Lord was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.

1 Chronicles 21

King James Version

​

21 And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.

Different events.

He punished Daved for the 1 chrion. event.

God is not obligated to soften our hearts, but He did obligate Himself to do so.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

We live in the old mindset that is being renewed.

If one has been Born Again of imperishable/ incorruptible seed...

It’s impossible to sin....remember, you and I don’t agree on what imperishable seed means?

I didn’t have to look that up online, I knew that I was Born Again of imperishable seed from day one....the seed that was placed in my heart by God, was the Holy Spirit, I also received God given faith as well, because God gave it and planted it in my heart, it has flourished and grown.....I’m unrecognisable as the person I used to be....the mighty power of God is at work in my heart, he never stops....he will finish what he started...my testimony and belief.

So since the first day of your salvation you believe you have never committed any sins whatsoever?

 

[Red Baker]

2 Samuel 24​

​

King James Version​

​

​

24 And again the anger of the Lord was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.

1 Chronicles 21​

​

King James Version​

​

​

21 And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.

Different events.

He punished Daved for the 1 chrion. event.

God is not obligated to soften our hearts, but He did obligate Himself to do so.

Brother, I'm very familiar with both scriptures which were one and same event. What both scriptures give us is the big picture~it is true Satan provoked David to number Israel and it is just as true that God moved David (by not preventing David's sin) ~but in what sense can they both be true? God allowed the devil to tempt David to pride, to show us the inward spirit of David, AND the great tender mercies of God toward his repenting children, AND how it would be better for us to fall into the hands of God for correction of our sins, than sinned against man, and the fall into his hands, where he shows no mercy for doing wrong to him.

 

[Ritajanice]

So since the first day of your salvation you believe you have never committed any sins whatsoever?

I have been Born Again of imperishable seed....this is where we understand “ seed” differently I believe.

My spirit is what was Born Again of the Spirit...so NO....the Holy Spirit cannot indwell a sinner....all of my sins past, present and future have been forgiven..plus as Gods word says, A Born Again does not continue to sin because they have been Born Again of imperishable seed.

That must be understood in the witness of the Holy Spirit...doesn’t he witness to your spirit that he keeps you in his power?

Can you not feel his power inside of you working every thing out according to his purpose and plan.....the more my faith grows, the more I can see his power..

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Brother, I'm very familiar with both scriptures which were one and same event. What both scriptures give us is the big picture~it is true Satan provoked David to number Israel and it is just as true that God moved David (by not preventing David's sin) ~but in what sense can they both be true? God allowed the devil to tempt David to pride, to show us the inward spirit of David, AND the great tender mercies of God toward his repenting children, AND how it would be better for us to fall into the hands of God for correction of our sins, than sinned against man, and the fall into his hands, where he shows no mercy for doing wrong to him.

The problem with your explanation is your parenthesis. In one god was angry with Israel and told David to number them and the other verse Satan provoked David to number them. they are not congruous.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I have been Born Again of imperishable seed....this is where we understand “ seed” differently I believe.

My spirit is what was Born Again of the Spirit...so NO....the Holy Spirit cannot indwell a sinner....all of my sins past, present and future have been forgiven..plus as Gods word says, A Born Again does not continue to sin because they have been Born Again of imperishable seed.

That must be understood in the witness of the Holy Spirit...doesn’t he witness to your spirit that he keeps you in his power?

Can you not feel his power inside of you working every thing out according to his purpose and plan.....the more my faith grows, the more I can see his power..

So since you were saved you have never committed a sin?

 

[Robert Pate]

Robert, you are not making biblically sense.

The truth is this: God first must regenerate a sinner who is dead in tresspasses and sin. Once a man is quickened to life, (born again) from that point forward they have the power to believe the gospel with the new man within them, but not until then. Sir, so many scriptures will prove this truth: Romans 8:5-9; John 1:12,13; John 5:24; etc.


Actually, not born again, no faith~the gospel is only the source of information concerning the gospel of Jesus Christ ~ wherein, the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith........... or, from a person who has faith, to another person who has faith, and that faith is the gift of God on the behalf of Jesus Christ.


May the Lord be pleased to give you spiritual eyes to see these blessed truths.

You are on the wrong bus, going in the wrong direction.

When Jesus died all of humanity died with him. Sin death and the devil have been destroyed; we are complete in him. Colossians 2:10.

When Jesus arose from the dead we arose with him, Romans 6:8.

When Jesus ascended into heaven, we ascended with him, Colossians 3:4.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

You are on the wrong bus, going in the wrong direction.

When Jesus died all of humanity died with him. Sin death and the devil have been destroyed; we are complete in him. Colossians 2:10.

When Jesus arose from the dead we arose with him, Romans 6:8.

When Jesus ascended into heaven, we ascended with him, Colossians 3:4.

So you are a universalist then?

 

[Robert Pate]

So you are a universalist then?

No, I am a Gospel believing Christian.

Jesus is the savior of the whole world. All sin has been atoned for. The law has been fulfilled and abolished. Jesus is Lord, Revelation 19:16

 

[Ronald Nolette]

No, I am a Gospel believing Christian.

Jesus is the savior of the whole world. All sin has been atoned for. The law has been fulfilled and abolished. Jesus is Lord, Revelation 19:16

So do you believe everyone will be saved? it is a simple question and you know what is being asked.

 

[Red Baker]

When Jesus died all of humanity died with him. Sin death and the devil have been destroyed; we are complete in him. Colossians 2:10.

When Jesus arose from the dead we arose with him, Romans 6:8.

When Jesus ascended into heaven, we ascended with him, Colossians 3:4.

Robert, the last two verses you quoted are absolutely true, every single word, the only problem is your understanding of those two scriptures.

First, if it is true that Jesus paid the sin debt for every single person and all arose with him and all ascended into heaven with him, (legally speaking) then it is impossible for that person to perish in their sins ~ if their sins have been paid and they are now seated in the heavenly places with Christ, IMPOSSIBLE.

Have you ever heard of the law of double jeopardy that even men have?

The Double Jeopardy Clause in the Fifth Amendment to the US Constitution prohibits anyone from being prosecuted twice for substantially the same crime.

I ask you~is man's law more righteous than God's laws? Of course not. God would be unrighteous to punish twice for a crime once prosecuted and found to be not guilty!

Jesus Christ the surety of God's elect paid in full for our sins, legally we can never be punished for our sins if our sins were paid for, and they were, yet not for all, only for those given to him to redeem! John 17 read it and believe it!