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Can a Christian Backslide/lose salvation?

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by Franklin, Mar 19, 2008.

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  1. crooner

    crooner New Member

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    Lots of people here need to learn the Gospel. Sin will cut short our lifes,but God will not forsake us. Kriss you on your best rightous day are a sinner. As well as every one else.We are saved justified and sanctified by grace. That means past present and future sins. We sin in our sleep. This world is sin our flesh is sin. If you guys dont get this straight you will never experience Christian peace. This thread sounds like a Jw or a morman sight, or even Roman Cath site.Man I am glad I read this sight. I cant believe Your comment Kriss
     
  2. forgivenWretch

    forgivenWretch New Member

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    I would agree that Satan cannot snatch us out of the hands of God - But...(Revelation 2:5) Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

    I would agree that Satan cannot snatch us out of the hands of God - But...
    I you truly agree, then there can be no BUT!
     
  3. forgivenWretch

    forgivenWretch New Member

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    You are here: [url="http://www.allaboutgod.com/]God[/url] >> Once Saved, Always Saved Once Saved, Always Saved – The Biblical EvidenceThe Bible teaches “once saved, always saved” -- that we can be saved once and for all only through a repentant, saving faith in Jesus Christ. Once a person has accepted Christ as Savior, they may wonder if it is possible to lose that salvation. What if they commit a sin? What if they commit a lot of sins? What if they do something very, very wrong? Is it possible to be saved, and then lose that salvation? Fortunately, the answer is a resounding “no.” Once a person has accepted Jesus Christ as Savior, he/she is forever saved. This fact is referred to as the doctrine of “eternal security,” often summarized as “once saved, always saved.” There are several reasons why a person can be confident in their “eternal security.” First and foremost is the evidence of Scripture. [url="http://www.allaboutgod.com/truth/john-3.htm]John 3:15-18[/url] says about Christ: “The Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life. For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.”The salvation in Christ is not temporary, it is eternal
     
  4. Abdul Dawood

    Abdul Dawood New Member

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    Ok Turtle Franklin,Here are some pretty cool notes on the verses which you referenced beginning at Revelation 3:3And I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life: By this, the overcomers are assured of their heavenly citizenship. In the ancient world, death or a criminal conviction could blot out the name of an ancient citizen from the city’s book of the living, which was the city register.i. “In ancient times cities kept a register of their citizens; and when a man died, his name was removed from the register. The risen Christ is saying that, if we wish to remain on the roll of the citizens of God, we must keep our faith flamingly alive.” (Barclay)c. Blot out his name from the Book of Life: Does this mean that someone can lose their salvation? That someone is saved one day - their name is in the Book of Life - and another day, they have fallen away and their name has been blotted out from the Book of Life? We need to first see the context here in Revelation 3:5. The focus is assurance, so we should not think that names are being constantly erased and then re-written. The focus here is on assurance, not the idea that Jesus sits in heaven with a busy eraser. At the same time, we should carefully consider what the Word has to say about the Book of Life.i. There is a Book of Life, and it will be opened and referenced on the Day of Judgement. This means that the Book of Life is real, and will be read. * And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. (Revelation 20:12)ii. There is a Book of Life, and it determines if we go to heaven or hell. This means that the Book of Life is important. * And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. (Revelation 20:15)iii. There is a Book of Life, and knowing our names are written there should bring us great joy. * Nevertheless do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rather rejoice because your names are written in heaven. (Luke 10:20)iv. There is a Book of Life, and there are five different references to people being blotted out of the Book of Life. This means that the idea of being blotted out of the Book of Life should be taken seriously. Perhaps it is only a symbol, and that person’s name was never there to begin with. Even if that is the case, the Lord still wants us to take it seriously, because there are some who by every human appearance are saved, yet will not be in heaven. * Moses said to the Lord: Yet now, if You will forgive their sin; but if not, I pray, blot me out of Your book which You have written. (Exodus 32:32) * And the Lord said to Moses, “Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book.” (Exodus 32:33) * Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous. (Psalm 69:28) * He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels. (Revelation 3:5) * And if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. (Revelation 22:19)A good example of how we should take this warning seriously is the life of a man named Charles Templeton. A generation ago he was deeply involved in the foundations of Youth for Christ and impacted the nation for Jesus. Chuck Smith himself has said how dynamic and powerful a minister he was, and that he would go anywhere to hear him. Many people received Jesus at his meetings, and he was an associate with Billy Graham in the early years. But recently he wrote a book in which he totally denounces his belief in Jesus Christ, denounces even his belief even in God, and says he is an atheist. Charles Templeton totally denounces his early confessions of faith and through his book he wants to “rescue” the people he once brought to Jesus. Obviously, this man - in his present, apostate state - is not going to heaven. You can debate all day long if he was never saved or if he lost his salvation. But at the end of the day, there are two conclusions. First, at one time, by all human appearance he was saved. Second, he didn’t take the warnings of the Bible to keep walking, to keep trusting, to keep persevering in the faith seriously enough.
     
  5. Franklin

    Franklin New Member

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    Then what do we say about people like Charles Templeton who by all appearances and by the conviction of his OWN heart had a love for God?He know denounces God, perhaps hates Christianity, and seek to convert Christians to atheism!So was he ever saved? The pat answer of baptists is "No, he was never saved" But thats a pat answer and it flies in the face of "If you really mean it in your heart" type of thinkingNo friends Charles made a choice and he surrendered his salvation... Thereby he is no longer slaved, but apostate.
     
  6. Abdul Dawood

    Abdul Dawood New Member

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    Franklin,I am not sure if he was ever saved at all. The very short answer when someone asks me about losing salvation is that if we truly give our lives over to the Lord and let Him be the master of our lives, then we are saved and we have nothing to worry about. If we sin, and really, we all sin, and no sin is greater than another, and we are convicted by our faith and in true repentance come to God and ask forgiveness and turn from our sin, then we are still saved. Even if we lead an entire life of sin, if we are convicted by that sin, and I don't think there is a time limit on repentance, and we again ask for forgiveness and turn from our sin, then we are still saved. The only sin which I see could keep you from entering heaven, as I understand it, is to turn completely away from God. But you don't lose salvation for that sin, but because the person will never accept God and ask for forgiveness anymore.They have made their hearts hard and uncaring for God.Hopefully that made sense, I was going to keep going down your list of verses, but if you prefer to not renew that part of the conversation, that is quite alright with me. Let me know otherwise.Cheerio!
     
  7. followerofchrist

    followerofchrist New Member

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    (Franklin;41419)
    I know this is an age old argument, but for the sake of clarity, and interest - what do you think: Can a Christian Backslide/lose salvation?
    Read the entire chapter of Hebrews 6. But here is a quick example.4It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, becauseto their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.
     
  8. crooner

    crooner New Member

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    (followerofchrist;41506)
    Read the entire chapter of Hebrews 6. But here is a quick example.4It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, becauseto their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.
    You and I sin very seconed of our lifes. So that means you will not be in heaven. I would keep reading the word until your saved my friend. Your righteousness is filthy rags my friend. Read every scripture you can on salvation Galations, Romans ,Jon 3:16 make a list and compare the list to Hebrew 6.This is something you dont want to mess around with. If we dont have Salvation down we are not Christians.
     
  9. Abdul Dawood

    Abdul Dawood New Member

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    Notes on Hebrews 6:6if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.Remember there is a great difference between falling and falling away. Falling away isn’t just falling into some sin, it is actually departing from Jesus Himself. For a righteous man may fall seven times and rise again, but the wicked shall fall by calamity. (Proverbs 24:16) The difference is between a Peter and a Judas. If you depart from Jesus, there is no hope!i. The message to these Christians who felt like giving up was clear: if you don’t continue on with Jesus, don’t suppose you will find salvation by just going on with the old basics that are common to Judaism; if you aren’t saved in Jesus, you aren’t saved!ii. If one falls like this, does it mean they can’t repent? That God prohibits their repentance? Remember first that repentance itself is a gift from God; no one genuinely repents without God’s enabling. Second, if one does repent, that in itself is evidence that they have not truly fallen away.iii. The idea is not that “if you fall away, you can’t come back to Jesus ever,” but that “if you turn your back on Jesus, don’t expect to find salvation anywhere else, especially in the foundations of Judaism apart from the fullness of Jesus.”iv. “This passage has nothing to do with those who fear lest it condemns them. The presence of that anxiety, like the cry which betrayed the real mother in the days of Solomon, establishes beyond a doubt that you are not one that has fallen away beyond the possibility of renewal to repentance.” (Meyer)
     
  10. Jon-Marc

    Jon-Marc New Member

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    (Franklin;41419)
    I know this is an age old argument, but for the sake of clarity, and interest - what do you think: Can a Christian Backslide/lose salvation?
    No. He does, however lose fellowship with his Saviour. He will be chastised until he returns and seeks forgiveness. One we are a child of God, we never lose that. We can lose blessings though. If he doesn't return then he could be killed.
     
  11. followerofchrist

    followerofchrist New Member

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    (crooner;41507)
    You and I sin very seconed of our lifes. So that means you will not be in heaven. I would keep reading the word until your saved my friend. Your righteousness is filthy rags my friend. Read every scripture you can on salvation Galations, Romans ,Jon 3:16 make a list and compare the list to Hebrew 6.This is something you dont want to mess around with. If we dont have Salvation down we are not Christians.
    I'm not talking about sinning I am talking about actually falling away from christ. Of course we sin, but we don't fall away, we don't purposefully deny christ.
     
  12. Franklin

    Franklin New Member

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    Luke 8:13 - (Luke 8:13) They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.Herein lies the hypocrisy of it all – the same who demand that faith is all that is needed for salvation, are the same who claim the “they were never saved” mantra. We find in Luke 8 such an individual:“ which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.” They believed, they received the word, then what word is used “fall away”Interesting phrase this “fall away” - aphistēmi af-is'-tay-mee to remove, that is, (actively) instigate to revolt; usually (reflexively) to desist, desert, etc.: - depart, draw (fall) away, refrain, withdraw self.Which is exactly what I am saying an individual can do – they can remove, revolt, depart, or “withdraw self” – negating or making the cross of no effect. Hence we see texts like (Revelation 22:19) And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
     
  13. forgivenWretch

    forgivenWretch New Member

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    (Franklin;41513)
    Luke 8:13 - (Luke 8:13) They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.Herein lies the hypocrisy of it all – the same who demand that faith is all that is needed for salvation, are the same who claim the “they were never saved” mantra. We find in Luke 8 such an individual:“ which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.” They believed, they received the word, then what word is used “fall away”Interesting phrase this “fall away” - aphistēmi af-is'-tay-mee to remove, that is, (actively) instigate to revolt; usually (reflexively) to desist, desert, etc.: - depart, draw (fall) away, refrain, withdraw self.Which is exactly what I am saying an individual can do – they can remove, revolt, depart, or “withdraw self” – negating or making the cross of no effect. Hence we see texts like (Revelation 22:19) And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
    One must first possess something before it can be lost. The two do not play together, they are completely different.As was said earlier, only two people are privy to the truth, it really does not matter what anyone else has to say about it. And once again God's word does not contradict itself.
     
  14. Franklin

    Franklin New Member

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    God's Word is the one that uses phrases such as fall awaycastawayI Cor 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.II Cor 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faithGalatians 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace I Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils Revelation 3 blot out his name out of the book of lifeRevelation 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth. Revelation 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this bookThat is GOD'S WORD - not my own! HIS ALONE
     
  15. Abdul Dawood

    Abdul Dawood New Member

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    I think Franklin, that you have gotten to the bottom of it with this verse, and I will explain why. If someone rejects Christ after supposedly being saved, then they were not saved to begin with. If say, I go to church, or a buddy tells me about Jesus, and I say enthusiastically, "Yes! Sounds great! Sign me up today!" but then I go home and my parents want to kick me out for being a Christian, so I don't put up a fight and stay at home, then would you say I was really saved?Now, if I am saved, and I face being kicked out or any other kind of trial, and I persevere and keep trusting that God will be with me always and allow his will to dominate my life regardless of what happens to me, would you say I was really saved?So yes, I think I do agree with you that someone who turns completely away from God, rejects his word and never comes back to repent and ask forgiveness is not saved. I take it a step further and say that person was never saved, because if they truly had a solid foundation for their faith, then they would have felt conviction at some point and turned back to God for support.
     
  16. Abdul Dawood

    Abdul Dawood New Member

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    Revelation 3:16 was written to a people that had lost that fire they once had had for God. This is a warning against people who find themselves complacent about their faith and do nothing to spread the word. Again, when I read a verse like this, I am always reminded that I must self examine myself and question where I stand in my faith. Are my actions that of someone who is truly saved, or am I a sleeping Christian who bears no fruit? In Matthew 3:10 it says: "And even now the ax is laid to the root of the trees. Therefore every tree which does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire." Again, I see this as a warning at being complacent and doing nothing for my faith, if indeed I have any. Someone who has true faith and loves God will naturally produce good fruit and will have a passion for His word, but if we find ourselves doing nothing and being complacent in everything, then we must question whether we are truly saved or not.Anyways, that's what I understand from Revelation 3:16.
     
  17. Franklin

    Franklin New Member

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    (Abdul Dawood;41522)
    I think Franklin, that you have gotten to the bottom of it with this verse, and I will explain why. If someone rejects Christ after supposedly being saved, then they were not saved to begin with. If say, I go to church, or a buddy tells me about Jesus, and I say enthusiastically, "Yes! Sounds great! Sign me up today!" but then I go home and my parents want to kick me out for being a Christian, so I don't put up a fight and stay at home, then would you say I was really saved?Now, if I am saved, and I face being kicked out or any other kind of trial, and I persevere and keep trusting that God will be with me always and allow his will to dominate my life regardless of what happens to me, would you say I was really saved?So yes, I think I do agree with you that someone who turns completely away from God, rejects his word and never comes back to repent and ask forgiveness is not saved. I take it a step further and say that person was never saved, because if they truly had a solid foundation for their faith, then they would have felt conviction at some point and turned back to God for support.
    so hypothetically - if Charles Templeton accepts Christ again next week - then he has been saved the whole time - during his books, speeches and so on
     
  18. Abdul Dawood

    Abdul Dawood New Member

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    If Charles Templeton truly accepts Christ in his heart and repents for spreading lies about God's word and leading people astray, then he will be saved. But he must turn one hundred eighty degrees from his former life. Just because he did works before means nothing, since we are not saved by works. Also, remember that I said earlier that I don't think he ever accepted Christ in the first place because of how flimsy he turned out to be in his faith. We will never know for sure how he truly felt inside his heart all those years but I can only speculate. If still you say he was saved but now is un-saved and can be saved again, ask yourself this question:If someone is truly saved, and they put their trust in the Lord and follow his will lovingly, even though they will sometime sin and repent and work towards turning away from their sins, do you think such a person could turn away from God truly?I hope that all made sense, I am not sure if I do sometimes [​IMG]. By the way Franklin, this has been a most interesting discussion, thanks.
     
  19. Franklin

    Franklin New Member

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    Yes it has... thank you too!I think we have a variety of texts that lead us to believe, along with warning us of potential apostasy or backsliding. We cannot disregard these warnings, but instead we have to work them into our theology and try and understand if salvation is so eternally secure why: endure to the end, or beware of the one that can destroy the soul, or don't be deceived and so on. These texts are written with passion and inspiration. I think we better serve our theology by working the one or two subjective texts that could implicate eternal security into right theology which shows our salvation as not a fragile on again off again scenario, but instead a solid foundation determined by the heart and faith of a man
     
  20. Abdul Dawood

    Abdul Dawood New Member

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    Here is my conclusion then for this topic so far:If I am truly saved, and I trust in the Lord and follow his will, then I am saved, and whether I sin (and repent) I am still saved and nobody can snatch me out of His hand.(Which acknowledges your comment: "...which shows our salvation as not a fragile on again off again scenario, but instead a solid foundation determined by the heart and faith of a man.")But if I show no good fruit, do not follow his commands, am a lukewarm Christian, feel no remorse or conviction for my actions, and do not put all my trust in God, then I must question whether I was ever truly saved at all, for I am in danger of being cut down and thrown into the fire.I am out! Shalom!
     
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