Can an evolutionist also be a Christian?

[kalixx]

(For Life;38253)
You mean he missed your argument. I think what he wrote was spot on. Evolutionists don't argue why anything dies, that is just fact. Evolutionists argue that life creates itself. To pretend to know how life is created or how God created life is pure pride in intellect. To say that Evolution contradicts God's word is saying that you personally know how God created life. None of us knows how God did it. I personally don't think He used Evolution but maybe He did.
I don't understand your point, ForLife. I agree that what was written was just fine - it just didn't refer to the point I was trying to discuss that's all. And neither does your post.The crux of what I was asking concerned how evolutionists explain the origin and redemption of sin, not whether evolution is right or wrong. And, personally, if the Bible provides an explanation of how God created life, then I think we are fully justified in wanting to understand it? And reconciling science with faith is surely an important means to growing firmer roots in one's faith?If you have an opinion how and when sin appeared in an evolutionary model of humankind I would be interested in hearing it

 

[kalixx]

Hi Dunamite!You wroteDunamite;38220)
Sorry, if I took a tangent.I am not an evolutionist. Nor am I against evolution. Death and sin are real and metaphors. Are you mixing the two?Death is natural. Everyone ever born has died, including Jesus. Death is also used as a metaphor throughout scripture.You also missed my point. As far as I know there is no test to get into Heaven. We aren't saved by works or knowledge. We don't have to do anything. We don't have to believe in Adam and Eve. We don't have to believe in the Garden of Eden. It does not matter if the earth was created in six literal days or a billion years. It does not matter if God took his time and stepped us through stages or did it all at once.We only have to believe in Jesus Christ and what he accomplished on the cross. We can be wrong about everything else.You can be a Christian and believe in evolution because it isn't about us and what we think. Even if evolution is wrong and you believe in it, you will not be turned away. People believe all kinds of wrong things. That is no basis for determining whether one is a Christian or not. Being a Christian does not make us any better or smarter. It does not mean that we are right about everything. Nor do we have to be perfect or right about this matter or any other so long as we believe that which is required.That is why I find this whole discussion weird. People have this notion that you're doomed to Hell if you are a liberal or if you believe in evolution. Christians come from all backgrounds and believe in a wide range of things.When we become Christian, we are changed in a very real and fundamental way. But that change takes a lifetime to complete. What we believe at various times of our life may be interesting but nothing more. If evolution some how diminished my capacity to believe in the person and the work of Jesus Christ or somehow inhibited the work of the Holy Spirit in my life then I could see the point. You have a different view of what it means to be a Christian from me. Mine is very narrow. It focuses on Jesus and not me. I become a Christian when I believe in him and not by what I hold to be true outside of him.I feel that we are a diverse lot. I feel that Jesus is where we can find common ground. That does not mean that I surrender all of my other views and become something else entirely. Jesus loves us just as we are, flaws and all. The Holy Spirit makes us new and we don't become new on our own initiative. I respectfully say that I don't like discussions of this sort because they attempt to add onto what Jesus did as if what he did was not enough. People say, we also have to agree about this or that. I don't think that it works this way. We can disagree and still be Christian so long as we agree on the core elements. Blessings,Dunamite
Thanks, Dunamite, now we are in the same ball-park! Some questions from your post:
As far as I know there is no test to get into Heaven. We aren't saved by works or knowledge. We don't have to do anything.
I think the bible declares that there IS a test. It is not works or knowledge - it is faith in Jesus and what he did for us. OK, so faith is a gift from God, but since the Bible also states that God wants ALL to be saved. If that is so and it requires nothing from us then surely everyone WOULD have faith, and yet clearly ALL do NOT have faith. So there must be some requirement from us, albeit small, an openness, readiness, willingness to let Jesus into one's life, perhaps?
We only have to believe in Jesus Christ and what he accomplished on the cross.
Exactly my point

Because all that you know of what Jesus accomplished on the cross is what the Bible tells you. Therefore believing in Jesus Christ also requires believing in the Bible. And since what Jesus did is concerned with sin then it is important to uderstand what sin is and where it came from. THIS is what I am trying to discuss! What is the evolutionists viewpoint of this when the Bible gives a different explanation?
You can be a Christian and believe in evolution because it isn't about us and what we think. Even if evolution is wrong and you believe in it, you will not be turned away. People believe all kinds of wrong things. That is no basis for determining whether one is a Christian or not.
It is not about belief in evolution per se. I am questioning the repercussions of evolutionary theory on other issues which ARE core fundamentals of Christianity, i.e. where did sin come from?
If evolution some how diminished my capacity to believe in the person and the work of Jesus Christ or somehow inhibited the work of the Holy Spirit in my life then I could see the point.
But this is precisely my point

You have a different view of what it means to be a Christian from me.
I have not stated my view on Christianity, anywhere. I have talked about my difficulties in communicating with God which, according to the Bible, must mean I am without God, i.e. a-theist. But that is not my view of Christianity. I live and work very hard to facilitate people's belief in the Christian God, I read the bible constantly, and devote my life to seeking greater understanding of what God is telling us. Inevitably questions arise and that is why I like to bring them to forum's like this. Christianity is a collective faith and forums are places where people can collect and share. I am just asking a question to help me understand something, I ma not taking a personal stand here on any issue one way or another.
I respectfully say that I don't like discussions of this sort because they attempt to add onto what Jesus did as if what he did was not enough. People say, we also have to agree about this or that. I don't think that it works this way. We can disagree and still be Christian so long as we agree on the core elements.
I agree - but I see this as being a core element! Christ is only relevant if his atonement is relevant. And his atonement is only relevant if there is something to atone for. Therefore the nature of sin, its origin, and its consequences are core aspects of our faith.For example: One pastor working in the same church that I work for believes, and preaches, that Jesus was just a man, that the resurrection is only symbolic, that there is no 2nd coming, that there is no life after death, that there is no such thing as atonement and that the idea of a God sending his son to death on the cross is a gross form of cruel child abuse! - Yet he calls himself a Christian because he believes in love amongst humans as the highest form of life in the universe - what people call "core elements" is pretty broadly defined in our Christian environment - a terribly depressing fact!

 

[kalixx]

Hi WaynemjYou wrotewaynemlj;38318)
Hi Kalixx,Take a few quiet and prayerful minutes and reread Genesis chapters 1,2, and 3.Your question is answered there.The theory of evolution means that one kind of life form crossed over in time to become a different and higher life form until, finally, this life form became the highest one . . . man.That's the futility of man's darkened mind that likes to think that way. Evolutionists would have us believe we are just grown-up germs!That is not God's revelation of His creation of each kind being its own with its own seed within it for reproduction of that same kind of life form.waynemlj
If you found the answer to my question in these chapters then please explain it rather than just quote them to me. I have read them many times.You say that: "Evolutionists would have us believe we are just grown-up germs!" - well, yes, that is what I am questioning! If they believe this but the Bible claims sin commenced in the first example of, as you put it: "each kind being its own with its own seed within it for reproduction of that same kind of life form", then where do evolutionists claim sin commenced? How do Gen 1,2,and 3 explain this as you assert?

 

[jamesrage]

(Dunamite;37947)
You can be a Christian and believe in evolution. The Bible does not say that things were created in six literal earth days.
To a certain degree I would have to say no because how can you sit there and say you believe in a almighty god when you take the side of atheist who say the universe was formed from a speck of dust(big bang theory) and everything came from a single celled organism?

 

[kalixx]

(jamesrage;38343)
To a certain degree I would have to say no because how can you sit there and say you believe in a almighty god when you take the side of atheist who say the universe was formed from a speck of dust(big bang theory) and everything came from a single celled organism?
A very relevant question, jamesrage

(i.e. unless referring to the God-controlled evolution theory - in which case why did God also give us Adam and Eve as the origin of sin?)

 

[stlizzy]

(kalixx;38348)
A very relevant question, jamesrage

(i.e. unless referring to the God-controlled evolution theory - in which case why did God also give us Adam and Eve as the origin of sin?)
Hi kalixx,I think that you have a profound point that cannot be overlooked. Some questions:What is the point of death? Is it a punishment or is it a consequence of sin? (For instance, "Romans 6:23 "for the wages of sin is death..."= does this mean you sin therefore you die?)Where does it fit into the death of Jesus Christ? Why does the Bible specifically start out telling us about Adam and Eve and the fall? What is the point of original sin? Was there original sin?How could the idea of Adam and Eve being punished with death be reconciled with the concept of Evolution- which is centered around death and change?Did animals die before the fall?How can there be a Godly form of evolution under these contexts? (I have never heard this argument so I would like to know.)Does arguing on the side of evolution lessen the point of Christ's death? (You made this point in earlier posts on this thread and I think it is crucial.)Is death truly natural or is it a consequence- that is to say was it intended to be our true nature?Does believing in evolution affect our faith?These questions are significant and connected. I can't answer them all but I am going to pray and study scripture and from time to time may God show me more wisdom about it. But I do think that if we are supposed to take the death of Christ literally, the fact that He is God's Son literally, and the events surrounding His death, like all of His miracles and His resurrection- that it points to taking other parts of the Bible literally too. What I mean is- if God wants us to believe in Him like children- if just a child's quiet faith is all that is needed, what else is needed to be believed with quiet faith? If Adam and Eve were created first, through an old-school understanding of the Genesis story- that is to say the earth was created and made total in 6 days- there was nothing before the first and everything after the 6th, than they were born into an environment that had no laws, no discovered reason, no theology, no culture- and for their children to believe in a 6-day, quite simple to understand yet impossible for us to achieve explanations for how it happened, seems relatively easy.It seems that a lot of what God is capable of doing is impossible to explain but easy to understand- whereas I hear a lot of theories which are the inverse: that try to explain God's plans or major events like the creation of the world but it ways that are not easy to understand, that is to say you need more than the faith of a child and you need more than a child's brain to understand them) but try to prove that they have come to a final "explanation" but in doing so often negate other crucial factors of the Bible... is there correlation in this? I believe that there might be and that is where faith comes in. Perhaps this one very critical reason why we have to daily walk with Christ- so that the impossible becomes the possible but only through God, and not through ourselves or or own explanations?For instance, to say, "God created the earth and all that is in it in 6 days"- is that all we have to do? Should there be more? And why do we have more? If, in the future, it is found that fossils are not nearly as old as previously thought, what then? If not, what then? Can about 1,800 years of belief in a 6 day process be changed to something else from all of this? And where does Christ's death fit in? (I say 1,800 because it was around the 1800's that evolution started to infiltrate the idea of 6-day creation... but this could be off some...)And why then does God give us brains? What is the point of knowledge if everything is so easily understood? Is it so that we can see how limited we really are? Or perhaps to see that with all of our knowledge combines- it still is nothing compared to that of the very God which already knows it all and so much more?I believe that the 6th day creation is literal and that death as a consequence of sin is what Jesus' death is saving us from! I don't think evolution fits into this belief and I don't think that any theories are needed to explain our "origins"- and what's more it's always who God who is giving the theories that are able to stand the tests of time. But I am still open to discussion about it and I don't think that we should ignore questions just because we can't give detailed answers right away- because we think that it proves God does not exists. I think this is a biased and "court-room type" way of thinking. So as I said before I don't have all the answers to the questions that I posed and I would doubt if anyone on earth could give complete, 100% satisfactory answers either- but that we should still ask them and talk openly about them.All Praise be to God!

 

[kalixx]

Hi Stlizzy! Yes, I also think that the argument here condenses down to the questions of what is nature of sin and what is the nature of the penalty for sin. If we are to take the 6 day creation literally then there is little reason to doubt the reality of Adam and Eve and the rest of the bible story. But if we adopt an evolutionist gradual development of life towards the eventual appearance of the "Human Being" then it leads us to question many other crucial areas of the bible. For example, Genesis tells us that the only tree that A and E were forbidden to eat from was the "tree of the knowledge of good and evil" (Gen 2:17). And so there were free to eat from any of the other trees in the garden. But in the garden was also the "tree of life", which would give A and E eternal life, and they could eat from this (which was why they were banned from Eden - Gen 3:22). It is hard to imagine that A and E would not have already eaten from this tree earlier, in which case we can query how could their eternal life then be subsequently overturned, but it is even harder to place this tree in an evolutionary setting where there would be lots of other humanoid and sub-humanoid beings that had also evolved to this point. Would not at least some of them have also eaten form this tree of life? Or were A and E lifted from the general mass of humanoids and placed in the garden specifically to create sin? If so, what about all the over humanoids which were left outside the garden? Were they sin-free? If not, how did sin spread to them? So if we have to then conclude that the trees in the garden are allegories, then so probably is also the garden - which brings us to the core question here: what is sin and where did it come from/begin? - and what is its penalty? This also leads to another question: if one is atheist is there really such a thing as sin?

 

[digital_disciple]

(Wakka;38176)
Jag, stop getting ahead of yourself. The Bible only hints it, we can only assume that it's ancient. I don't believe in this assumption, I just believe in the literal Word of God.
I agree. I think once you say that the 6 days of creation can't be interpreted literally, you call the whole rest of the Bible into question. As to whether it is literal or just a bunch of nice symbolic stories. I believe in the "Young Earth" theory, and definately do not believe in any evolution. God created man, He did not evolve man. Can a Christian be an evolutionist? Truthfully, I see no way that you could reconsile the two, but God does not require that we believe certain non-essentail things. As long as the person has a right understanding of God and has a personal relationship with the Living God, then yes they could. :sign:

 

[waynemlj]

Hi Kalixx,About evolution versus creationism . . . we can't have it both ways. Since we are Christians, God have given us the faith to believe that His Word is perfect, without error. And God says in genesis 1, 2, and 3, that He made every species to be its own kind and to remain that way forever. German Shepherds produce baby German Shepherds and always will (unless man messes that up with cross-breeding, but that's obviously tampering with the way God made them).The evolutionist believes that God did not make each species of its own kind, but that everything came from a tiny life form and gradually became a higher life form, such as monkeys, eventually, and finally, over time, even monkeys changed and became human beings . . . a complete system of nonsense. Evolution takes away the special dignity that God gave us as men.Only man was made in God's image and likeness as it says in Genesis. You have to believe God and His Holy Word, or go with the evolutionists and say that God is a liar and that we have no special soul like God's. Evolutionists would have us believe their lies that a dog has a soul too!Evolution has been disproved by experts like Philip Johnson and Michael Denton many years ago.You can look them up on the Internet if you're interested.Hope this is clearer to you,waynemlj

 

[kalixx]

(waynemlj;40069)
Hi Kalixx, About evolution versus creationism . . . we can't have it both ways. Since we are Christians, God have given us the faith to believe that His Word is perfect, without error. And God says in genesis 1, 2, and 3, that He made every species to be its own kind and to remain that way forever. German Shepherds produce baby German Shepherds and always will (unless man messes that up with cross-breeding, but that's obviously tampering with the way God made them). The evolutionist believes that God did not make each species of its own kind, but that everything came from a tiny life form and gradually became a higher life form, such as monkeys, eventually, and finally, over time, even monkeys changed and became human beings . . . a complete system of nonsense. Evolution takes away the special dignity that God gave us as men.Only man was made in God's image and likeness as it says in Genesis. You have to believe God and His Holy Word, or go with the evolutionists and say that God is a liar and that we have no special soul like God's. Evolutionists would have us believe their lies that a dog has a soul too! Evolution has been disproved by experts like Philip Johnson and Michael Denton many years ago.You can look them up on the Internet if you're interested. Hope this is clearer to you,waynemlj
That is how I see it, too. I cannot accept evolution per se. It also raises serious questions that undermine the core concepts of the Christian faith - that is why I asked the question

 

[stlizzy]

(kalixx;39437)
Hi Stlizzy! Yes, I also think that the argument here condenses down to the questions of what is nature of sin and what is the nature of the penalty for sin. If we are to take the 6 day creation literally then there is little reason to doubt the reality of Adam and Eve and the rest of the bible story. But if we adopt an evolutionist gradual development of life towards the eventual appearance of the "Human Being" then it leads us to question many other crucial areas of the bible. For example, Genesis tells us that the only tree that A and E were forbidden to eat from was the "tree of the knowledge of good and evil" (Gen 2:17). And so there were free to eat from any of the other trees in the garden. But in the garden was also the "tree of life", which would give A and E eternal life, and they could eat from this (which was why they were banned from Eden - Gen 3:22). It is hard to imagine that A and E would not have already eaten from this tree earlier, in which case we can query how could their eternal life then be subsequently overturned, but it is even harder to place this tree in an evolutionary setting where there would be lots of other humanoid and sub-humanoid beings that had also evolved to this point. Would not at least some of them have also eaten form this tree of life? Or were A and E lifted from the general mass of humanoids and placed in the garden specifically to create sin? If so, what about all the over humanoids which were left outside the garden? Were they sin-free? If not, how did sin spread to them? So if we have to then conclude that the trees in the garden are allegories, then so probably is also the garden - which brings us to the core question here: what is sin and where did it come from/begin? - and what is its penalty? This also leads to another question: if one is atheist is there really such a thing as sin?

Yes, can an athiest really sin? What is sin?! What is morality?!A very broad question that I asked myself the other day..."If it feels good, do it". That is what the world says...Why have morals if you don't have a basis for them? If you don't believe in God, what guides your moral compass? Society? So do your morals change as society does?Personally, I think morality is yet another proof of God's existence...

 

[waynemlj]

Hi Kalixx,Your Words from your Reply to Stlizzy: "but it is even harder to place this tree in an evolutionary setting where there would be lots of other humanoid and sub-humanoid beings that had also evolved to this point. Would not at least some of them have also eaten form this tree of life? Or were A and E lifted from the general mass of humanoids and placed in the garden specifically to create sin? If so, what about all the over humanoids which were left outside the garden? Were they sin-free? If not, how did sin spread to them?"What other humanoids?Where did you get this idea from?Stick with the Bible's account of creation. Be very careful what material you read that can contain false doctrines and weaken your faith in God's Holy Word. There were two people in the Garden of Eden . . . Adam and Eve, and they were put out and not allowed to re-enter.Your passage that I quoted above is very mysterious, and I don't see it in the Bible.waynemlj

 

[waynemlj]

Hi Kalixx,From your words;"For example: One pastor working in the same church that I work for believes, and preaches, that Jesus was just a man, that the resurrection is only symbolic, that there is no 2nd coming, that there is no life after death, that there is no such thing as atonement and that the idea of a God sending his son to death on the cross is a gross form of cruel child abuse! - Yet he calls himself a Christian because he believes in love amongst humans as the highest form of life in the universe - what people call "core elements" is pretty broadly defined in our Christian environment - a terribly depressing fact!"[/COLORFrom what you wrote here, I would get away from that man and his church as fast as my little legs would take me!He's not a Christian! He's preaching false doctrines, and it is harmful to your faith to sit under that kind of garbage. I'm going to pray that you will be inspired by God to get out of there right away!Matthew 7:15-17, "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit."And Matthew 24:11, "And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray."Kalixx, you don't want to be in that church!waynemlj

 

[Jerusalem Junkie]

Boy who ever started this thread opened up a can of worms. I will tell you why, because Christian belief is that if the bible don't say it, it does not exist. Example the dinosaurs creationist think they were created same day as everything else now thats far fetched...other than that I do not care either way don't matter to me. Which came first? The chicken or the egg? Leave the answer up to who ever.....

 

[watksco]

(waynemlj;38318)
Hi Kalixx,Take a few quiet and prayerful minutes and reread Genesis chapters 1,2, and 3.Your question is answered there.The theory of evolution means that one kind of life form crossed over in time to become a different and higher life form until, finally, this life form became the highest one . . . man.That's the futility of man's darkened mind that likes to think that way. Evolutionists would have us believe we are just grown-up germs!That is not God's revelation of His creation of each kind being its own with its own seed within it for reproduction of that same kind of life form.waynemlj
The creation story in Genesis is a borrowed one. It is a cultural story (or poem) that would have existed in the oral tradiation from around the time and place of Moses. Where it differs from what we would call the pagan version in two ways: it has God being intentional in the creation and it has Him being interested in His creation. The bible itself makes no scientific claims what-so-ever. We have tried to ascribe science to it so that we have empirical proof of God. What the Bible is is a collection of stories about people and place thru which we are able to learn something of the character and nature of God. The point of everything is relationship.