Can Jesus and Paul be reconciled on the LAW?

[quietthinker]

This seems to be the one area that I cannot seem to reconcile with people I meet in Christian circles either at Church or lately online. Salvation by grace is a bit alien to me when it is explained in the context of my own conscientious reminders of Jesus' words that I read and pray to in the NT. Not willing to become a Paul basher for bashing sake I obviously continue to be wary of Paul. One Church I visited in the past just preached Corinthians with a sprinkle of Jesus and it made me think.
Does Jesus have more authority in his father's kingdom, than Paul? Of course he does, but without being sucked into the grace vs works debate ....the differences between Jesus and Paul are for me personally, growing exponentially since I came to Jesus for help, guidance and to know his teaching. What are peoples thoughts on what seem like (using a child like comprehension) glaringly obvious contradictions between the two on the subject of Law (Torah observance)?

In Matthew 5:17-19 Jesus sets out his fold for whoever wants to see or reach the kingdom, so why do so many people rely on Paul who preached grace!??
Also there are an increasingly growing number of websites that are staunchly against Paul but also give very compelling arguements and list all the contradictions which when seen together makes it virtually impossible to defend Paul. I consider myself a quick learner but even I am at a loss here.

Those that have the law in their hearts are in sync with Jesus and these will not reject those written on stone.
Grace by its nature reaches to the lowest, forgives and lifts them up if they allow it. They are God's workmanship, they are desirous to reflect the image of their Creator/Redeemer. Their mindset does not allow for offending their Saviour by justifying sin. Though they fall they will be lifted up.

Paul delicately balances God's kindness and the human disposition to take advantage of it. Man, the ever scheming beast attempts to get away with disregarding God's requirements (Law) by appealing to Grace. Paul is unequivocal, without holiness no man shall see the Lord. He takes the same line as Jesus. To argue that Jesus was under law and we are not therefore we have permission to disregard Law is misunderstanding the premise of Salvation and as brakelite said 'they leave the road entirely and drive over the cliff when they conclude that the law and grace are opposites.'

 

[Enoch111]

That's twice the opportunity for Danube to step correct regarding Paul's bona fides.

Danube needs to take a boat ride on the blue Danube so that he can get his thinking straight.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Neither, just someone who believes that Jesus makes us righteous the moment we make Him Savior and King, but also when we surrender our will to God's will in the hour of temptation, He takes over and accomplishes for us the "works" that we are wholly incapable of performing ourselves, and then gives us credit for His righteousness.

The smart university people call that "imputed and imparted righteousness".

I can agree to that. What I don't agree to is when some say the willful sins they commit aren't sin anymore.

 

[Danube]

The "proof" that Paul was a chosen vessel of God is found in Peter's epistle where he in no uncertain terms ranks Paul's writings among and equal to in power and inspiration "the other Scriptures".

2 Peter 3:14-16:
3:14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
3:15 And account [that] the longsuffering of our Lord [is] salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
3:16 As also in all [his] epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as [they do] also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Out of all of them, by Christ Paul was the most qualified to preach the gospel to the gentiles, because he was blind, but Christ opened his eyes so that he could see, whats it say

Act 11:9 But the voice answered me again from heaven, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.

so you disagree with Paul you disagree with Christ, Jesus made Paul one of His, you reject Him you reject Christ.

Luk_10:16 He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me.

really isnt hard.

I disagree with Paul because he is a liar by his own admission.
I have already showed you that Peter (according to John) couldn't be trusted to look after Jesus flock because of his temptation (given to him from Paul).

Paula wrote all the books you lot seem to think somehow believe serves as evidence of his conversion, self-substantiating (circular reasoning) I have pointed out that Jesus rebukes the Pharisee to the point of provoking Jesus' to anger.....and now you expect me to believe Paul' own (singular) account or that Jesus chose him (where Jesus formerly showed the diligent reader that no Pharisee can lead his flock because they are liars, children of the devil and ye hypocrites). You are either spiritually blind on this topic or purposefully avoiding all the mounting evidence before you.
You have been left desperately trying to defend a liar, left to use Paul to prove Paul, it simply doesnt work like that.
If Peter was to be trusted after he met Paul why did Jesus, John, James.....even Timothy (Pauls mentor) all agree (common ground) and leave the reader caution (which I have showed multiple times to be ignored by you) something was either was OR WOULD BE wrong with the direction of the Church left in scripture. What did Paul achieve that Jesus didnt already with regards to salvation?
You present proof by offering Pauls own works, Jesus has the witness testimony of thousands by his words (sermon on the mount) and his works (miracles of healing the sick)...Paul on the other hand requires 100% faith (packaged as grace) that he was converted by Jesus. 100% faith in a liar is foolish.
Now you offer one singular verse to hang 3/4 of the NT on, get real!!!
Go on then... Throw me yet another passage masquerading as proof that is not already written by Paul?
All of you have failed to answer for Paul.
So now look at you, haha few of you will have to resort to silly posts now and "group think" patting each other on the back because your left wanting! You clung to a liar and cannot humble yourself for Jesus because of your license to sin religion.

 

[mjrhealth]

@Danube you read to much, its the problem with christians, brain gets in the way and all of a suddenly they are rejecting the truth. If you read what he said, that all men are liars, that means even you, and that God is true, and that the truth of God has abounded even through his lie,

so where does the lie end and the truth begin if the bible was written by men who are liars, or is it you doubt God can change men and that He makes bad choices of whom He will convert and use for His Glory.

 

[Danube]

Your telling me that Jesus chose a Pharisee to lead his flock....without hearing REAL truth coming from Jesus' lips. You deny Jesus to support Paul as Paul is a self confessed Pharisee. Paul couldn't preach Torah observance having already commited "a sin unto death" (murder) so stuck with his lies and hypocrisy.
Paul died in his sin didnt he? Sent back to where he tried to flee from after having a true believer stoned for his testimony of Jesus, shielding himself with others he tried to espouse grace so he could avoid punishment....and ultimately failed. Paul took the protection of the law away.... but was he afforded grace himself or did he die the way he had others killed?

 

[Danube]

@Danube

so where does the lie end and the truth begin if the bible was written by men who are liars, or is it you doubt God can change men and that He makes bad choices of whom He will convert and use

Can you not hear him calling his flock?

"I AM the the truth, the light, the way"

Do you have ears to listen?

 

[mjrhealth]

Your telling me that Jesus chose a Pharisee to lead his flock....without hearing REAL truth coming from Jesus' lips. You deny Jesus to support Paul as Paul is a self confessed Pharisee. Paul couldn't preach Torah observance having already commited "a sin unto death" (murder) so stuck with his lies and hypocrisy.
Paul died in his sin didnt he? Sent back to where he tried to flee from, shielding himself with others he tried to espouse grace and ultimately failed. Paul took the protection of the law away but was he afforded grace or did he die the way he had others killed?

Well than I see no reason why anyone should listen to you a sinner just as he was. Oh and by the way, christians are killing christians every day with there words and unbelief.

 

[mjrhealth]

Paul died in his sin didnt he

Nope because He like you was saved by grace, or do you doubt God is capable of saving men.

Do you hear your Shepherd' voice???????

I know Jesus He died for me HE told me that Himself, why are you so angry, if Pauls words are lies why are you so offended by them...

 

[Danube]

Nope because He like you was saved by grace, or do you doubt God is capable of saving men.



I know Jesus He died for me HE told me that Himself, why are you so angry, if Pauls words are lies why are you so offended by them...

Maybe it is because I don't like liars who preach contrary to Jesus.

 

[Phoneman777]

I can agree to that. What I don't agree to is when some say the willful sins they commit aren't sin anymore.

Ahhh, the old "Salvation doesn't change a thing but God's opinion of my sin to which I cling" philosophy...the foundation for OSAS, Calvinism, Universalism, etc.

 

[Waiting on him]

Nope because He like you was saved by grace, or do you doubt God is capable of saving men.

This is the reason no flesh can glory in his presence. Our self glorification doesn’t enter in. If false then there’s no need for his cross.... we can just do it ourselves.

 

[Phoneman777]

Danube, the same Peter that Jesus qualified by His Spirit to "feed the flock" as a church leader is somehow disqualified to judge whether Paul's writings are or not "Scripture"? Not only is this a massive failure on your part at Deductive Reasoning, but a glimpse into why you were banned from that other forum.

 

[Danube]

Danube needs to take a boat ride on the blue Danube so that he can get his thinking straight.

Well....at least the spirit in you allows you to mock gracefully.
Give yourself a pat on the back oh saved one!

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Ahhh, the old "Salvation doesn't change a thing but God's opinion of my sin to which I cling" philosophy...the foundation for OSAS, Calvinism, Universalism, etc.

Right. It is what Jude called turning the grace of God into lasciviousness.

 

[Danube]

Phoneman777, I just think you have nothing nice to say, "obtuse" which is why you say what you do. You are clearly trying desperately hard to not make it look like you are being personal now. I am a critic of Paul yes....AND??? ...will you strip me of my salvation from Jesus if I question Paul (YOUR SAVIOR AND GOD!!)
I have Jesus...... who IS the light, the truth and the way! Banned from where? You said I have been banned...

 

[1stCenturyLady]

I disagree with Paul because he is a liar by his own admission.
I have already showed you that Peter (according to John) couldn't be trusted to look after Jesus flock because of his temptation (given to him from Paul).

Paula wrote all the books you lot seem to think somehow believe serves as evidence of his conversion, self-substantiating (circular reasoning) I have pointed out that Jesus rebukes the Pharisee to the point of provoking Jesus' to anger.....and now you expect me to believe Paul' own (singular) account or that Jesus chose him (where Jesus formerly showed the diligent reader that no Pharisee can lead his flock because they are liars, children of the devil and ye hypocrites). You are either spiritually blind on this topic or purposefully avoiding all the mounting evidence before you.
You have been left desperately trying to defend a liar, left to use Paul to prove Paul, it simply doesnt work like that.
If Peter was to be trusted after he met Paul why did Jesus, John, James.....even Timothy (Pauls mentor) all agree (common ground) and leave the reader caution (which I have showed multiple times to be ignored by you) something was either was OR WOULD BE wrong with the direction of the Church left in scripture. What did Paul achieve that Jesus didnt already with regards to salvation?
You present proof by offering Pauls own works, Jesus has the witness testimony of thousands by his words (sermon on the mount) and his works (miracles of healing the sick)...Paul on the other hand requires 100% faith (packaged as grace) that he was converted by Jesus. 100% faith in a liar is foolish.
Now you offer one singular verse to hang 3/4 of the NT on, get real!!!
Go on then... Throw me yet another passage masquerading as proof that is not already written by Paul?
All of you have failed to answer for Paul.
So now look at you, haha few of you will have to resort to silly posts now and "group think" patting each other on the back because your left wanting! You clung to a liar and cannot humble yourself for Jesus because of your license to sin religion.

So far, unless I missed it, I don't know what you believe Paul taught that was contrary to what Jesus taught. What in Paul's writings do you believe is heresy?

 

[Danube]

The Law.
The Commandments.
The protection of innocent life (would be victims of rape murder etc)
Jesus said it is the only way to show your love for EVERYONE... to cleanse your land of evil.
DO NO HARM CAUSE NO LOSS.
Paul got away with murder didn't he?

 

[1stCenturyLady]

The Law.
The Commandments.
The protection of innocent life (would be victims of rape murder etc)
Jesus said it is the only way to show your love for EVERYONE... to cleanse your land of evil.
DO NO HARM CAUSE NO LOSS.
Paul got away with murder didn't he?

As far as salvation goes, it doesn't matter what your past sin is, the blood of Jesus takes away the most grievous of sins, including murder. If you had to first be good enough for Jesus to save you, then your own works is needed for Jesus to accept you. Do you agree, or not?

 

[Phoneman777]

Phoneman777, I just think you have nothing nice to say, "obtuse" which is why you say what you do. You are clearly trying desperately hard to not make it look like you are being personal now. I am a critic of Paul yes....AND??? ...will you strip me of my salvation from Jesus if I question Paul (YOUR SAVIOR AND GOD!!)
I have Jesus...... who IS the light, the truth and the way! Banned from where? You said I have been banned...

I admit my comments were a bit harsh and I apologize. Yet, my premise remains. If Peter was not qualified to correctly rank Paul's writings as Scripture, then in what alternate universe would any man called by God qualify to execute offices of church leadership?