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Can saints see what's going on

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by David323, Jan 2, 2008.

  1. crooner

    crooner New Member

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    Sorry AgapeI mis read your last post. Just trying to let every one see scripture on the soul, spirit.for give meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeLove ya
     
  2. David323

    David323 New Member

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    Thanks to everyone for the posts. Everyone seems to be interpreting the scriptures a little differently. When we are in Heaven everyone will KNOW what is going on. I think I will believe that Jesus died for my sins and not worry about anything else except trying to do what God wants me to do. Crooner: I did get plenty of info on the last post, too much! I just thought there might be a simple verse or two or three. I know you have to look at the entire Bible when interpreting but sometimes a verse or two can be straightforward without looking at many other verses. That is apparently not the case with this question.
     
  3. Peacebewithyou

    Peacebewithyou New Member

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    (crooner;28992)
    Ryan your saints are dead cant hear a thing. read my last few posts.
    They aren't dead, according to Jesus: My favorite: (the promise to the thief on the cross)Luke 23:43And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.other good ones: 51Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see deathJohn 6:50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.John 11:26And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?And Paul: Romans 8:13For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
     
  4. Peacebewithyou

    Peacebewithyou New Member

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    (David323;29003)
    Everyone seems to be interpreting the scriptures a little differently. .
    Pick a topic.. any topic.. you will get a variety of differing opinions, all based on scripture. It is confusing, isn't it? [​IMG]
     
  5. crooner

    crooner New Member

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    Your right it is a little complicated because it has been distorted over the years with popular sermons to appease people that their loved ones are in heaven. The old testament people understood it very simply. It gets more distorted in the new testament.Good luck.
     
  6. crooner

    crooner New Member

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    peacebe with youI believe he is talking about eternal death The flesh here has to die.
     
  7. Peacebewithyou

    Peacebewithyou New Member

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    peacebe with youI believe he is talking about eternal death The flesh here has to die.
    What about the Rich man and Lazarus? They had bodies.. remember, the rich man wanted Lazarus to dip his finger? (Luke 16 maybe?) Anyhow, I know the arguement is the story is only a parable, but why would Jesus use a real person's name? He didn't in the other parables, did he? And even if it's only a parable, why would He want to give the impression that people are alive in heaven, if they aren't? Especially since an all-knowing God would KNOW that people would believe that *lie* down the road... if it were a lie. That's why I think it isn't a lie.
     
  8. Peacebewithyou

    Peacebewithyou New Member

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    Your right it is a little complicated because it has been distorted over the years with popular sermons to appease people that their loved ones are in heaven. The old testament people understood it very simply. It gets more distorted in the new testament.Good luck.
    It is my understanding that the OT faithful could not go to heaven until Jesus was ressurected... that Jesus opened the way so to speak? That prior to that they went to Abraham's bosom...
     
  9. Peacebewithyou

    Peacebewithyou New Member

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    Saints praying in heaven:Revelation 5:8 8And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.Revelation 8 3And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. 4And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand
     
  10. crooner

    crooner New Member

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    I think you have to look at parables and dreams differently. not literaly. Where the scripture I gave is literal. Its a tough subject because we all would like to be alive after we die. so its natural to look at this non-literaly. It took me a while to read between the fear. Its like studying hell theres two sides to that doctern too. same problem with scripture. You have to seperate dreams, parables from the literal. I dont have any motive one way or the other.
     
  11. Agape

    Agape New Member

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    Sorry AgapeI mis read your last post. Just trying to let every one see scripture on the soul, spirit.for give meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeLove ya
    It's okay, crooner, no harm done! And I for give yuuuuuuuuuu! [​IMG]
     
  12. Christina

    Christina New Member

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  13. Squeak

    Squeak New Member

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    (Letsgofishing;29055)
    Kriss we see that the saints are aware of what is going on in earth through Revelation 6:9-11 9When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained; 10and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord,holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?" 11And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also.your brother in christ Ryan Fitz
    Is it possible this is to be taken symbolicly? As I understand it (and I could or most probably am wrong since I am new at reading scriptures) that the book of Revelations uses a lot of symbolism.
     
  14. Agape

    Agape New Member

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    Hi, I thought the following information might be useful to help us understand whether or not the dead are alive now.BODY, SOUL AND SPIRITThere is a difference between body, soul, and spirit and also that there is an important distinction between FORMED, MADE, and CREATED. We must draw this distinction from God's Word if we are ever to rightly divide the Word concerning these topics. We need to understand the meaning of certain phrases or terms used in the Bible that are relevant to our topic. When God speaks of the "natural man" as in I Corinthians 2: 14, we must understand that this is a person who is of body and soul, NO SPIRIT. This person is not a born-again Christian. The only way this person can learn anything is by the five senses -- there is no spiritual connection with God. God, in the beginning, created the heavens and the earth including all the elements that make up the physical body of man (Genesis 1:1).Isaiah 43:7 --- Even every one that is called by my name: for I have created him for my glory, I have formed him; yea, I have made him.When God said "formed" He meant formed. When God said "made" He meant made. When God said "created" He meant created. I Thessalonians 5:23 --- And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.God originally planned man to be body, soul and spirit. Spirit, soul, and body are no more synonymous than the words formed, and made in Isaiah 43: 7. Body means body, soul means soul, and spirit means spirit. We must now let the Word speak as to what is formed, made and created and what is body, soul, and spirit. We must never allow private interpretation [see I Peter 1: 20] to enter when studying God's Word -- the Word of God interprets itself. It was in the beginning that man was formed, made and created. Let's look at the first part of Genesis 2: 7,In the beginning, man was formed, made and created.FORMED THE BODYGenesis 2:7 --- And the Lord God formed man [the body] of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.The Hebrew word for "form" is yatsar, "to fashion out of something that is already in existence." Genesis 2:7 says that God formed man of the dust of the ground, a substance that already existed when God began working on man. The word "man" is adam, meaning "red earth." Man's body is composed of the same elements that are in the dust.of the earth.Genesis 3:19 --- In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.The body of man was formed (yatsar) from the dust of the ground. And, because of the natural laws that everything must ultimately return to its original state, the body must turn to dust. Ecclesiastes 3:20 says, "...all (man, as well as animal) are of the dust, and all turn to dust again."MADE THE SOULThe Hebrew word for "soul" is nephesh. The soul in man is that which gives the body it's life, it's vitality.Genesis 2:7 --- And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and man became a living soul."Breathed into his nostril" is the figure of speech condescensio. God put life into Adam; He made man a living soul. The word "made" is the Hebrew word asah, "a substanced required of which the thing made consists." The soul is simply that which gives life to a person's body. The soul has nothing to do with whether you are a born again Christian or not. As long as a person breathes, he has a soul. Sometimes it is called the "spirit of man."I Peter 3:20 --- Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.During the great flood, these eight souls were spared. Were they Christians? They couldn't be since Christ had not yet come. Noah, his wife, their three sons and their wives were eight alive souls. Acts 27:37 --- And we were in all in the ship two hundred threescore and sixteen souls.Paul and Luke were sailing to Rome on this ship and they were the only believers. But the record says there were 276 souls on board. There were 276 "alive people" on that ship including Paul and Luke. Remember, soul is that part which gives life to the body. When people confuse soul and spirit, it results in a great deal of difficulty. Some Eastern religions talk about the immortality of the soul or the transmigration of the soul. These are all erroneous usages of words concerning subjects which are set with exactness and precision in the Word of God.Genesis 1:30 --- And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.The word "life" is "soul." This verse says that every beast has a living soul.Genesis 1:20 --- And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creatures that hath life.The words translated "living creature" are the words also translated living soul. Where there is a soul in an animal there is movement, there is breath life.Genesis 1:21 --- And God created great whales and every living creature [soul] ....Genesis 1:24 --- And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature ....The word "creature" is again the word "soul." There are some of the places in Genesis 1 where the word soul is used regarding creatures as well as man. The soul, then, is that which gives a being it's life. The word nephesh is "soul." Chai means "moving" life, "moving" soul. Nephesh chai is always used in the Word of God as living life or living soul, in contrast to a dead soul, a soul that has perished.The Church today is not logical on this issue because they usually teach that the soul and spirit go back to God. The soul simply perishes when a person takes their last breath. The soul exists only when you are alive. The soul is that which gives you breath-life. Your soul-life ceases to exist when you take your last breath and this is, of course, true for animals as well.Soul is defined as "breath-life." Plants do not have breath-life, and yet they have life in that they grow and bear fruit. Plants have growth life, but they do not have breath-life. Animals have both growth-life and soul-life or breath-life.Where is the Soul Life of Man?Leviticus gives us the answer.Leviticus 17:11 --- For the life of the flesh is in the blood ....Soul-life is in the blood and it is passed on from generation to generation during the time of fertilization, when the sperm impregnates the egg. A person can pass his soul-life on to his progeny. But if a person has no offspring, his soul is simply gone when he dies. There is nothing immortal about the soul just as there isn't anything immortal about dust. We get our soul-life from our predecessors and when we take our last breath, our soul-life is simply no more. CREATED THE SPIRITGenesis 1:1 -- In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.The literal meaning of "to create" is "to bring something out of nothing" or "to bring into existence something which never existed before." Many teachers say that on the first day God created this and on the second day God created something else, and so on. But this is not what the Word of God says. In Genesis 1: 3, God said, "Let there be light...." Why didn't He have to create it? Because He created whatever was needed for light in the beginning when He created the heaven and the earth. All that was ever needed was already created in Genesis 1: 1. That is why all God needed to do was to "speak" other things into existence. [See verses 6, 9, 11 and 14]After God formed, made, and created the earth and it's inhabitants (animals, fish, etc.), He came to His culminating work -- man.Genesis 1: 27 -- So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.God had already formed and made man -- he already had a body and soul. So what was God doing here when He created man in His own image? What is the image of God?John 4: 24 -- God is a Spirit....God created within man spirit, His image. Man now became body, soul, and spirit. Now God had a companion. The spirit part of man makes it possible for God to talk to man and for man to communicate with God. This gave them fellowship. So now we know from Isaiah and Thessalonians, that man was formed, made, and created and that he was body, soul, and spirit. Whenever scientists talk about creating life, this is a misnomer. Man may rediscover, revamp, reorganize, etc., but man cannot create. He cannot bring something into existence which did not previously exist. Man must always start with some substance so he is NOT creating. Only God can create. Keep in mind that when Adam and Eve sinned, they lost their spiritual connection with God. They received the spirit upon a condition -- that they would not disobey God, but they did. They became body and soul and everyone born into this world today is a body and soul person. Jesus Christ made it available for us to be born again of God's spirit by confessing Romans 10: 9, 10. Because of Adam, we lost our spiritual connection with God, but by the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ we are able to reclaim that connection.Man, as he was originally put together, surpasses the animal realm because he not only has body and soul, but also spirit. It is the spirit which sets man apart from the rest of creation. Because it is available for man to have spirit, God can communicate with His masterpiece.Ephesians 2: 22 -- In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through [in] the Spirit.What a tremendous subject this is from God's perfect Word. There is no confusion once we research the Word of God for truth, only clearness of understanding and peace of mind. Only the truth of God's Word sets a man or a woman free.God bless you,Agape
     
  15. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    Originally Posted by Letsgofishing Kriss we see that the saints are aware of what is going on in earth through Revelation 6:9-17When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained; 10and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord,holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?" 11And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also.your brother in christ Ryan Fitz (quote)....................................This proves nothing except they are aware of whats going on in heaven the action taking place is in heaven not on earth. They know what scripture says is going to happen at the End but they do not know when this end is coming so they ask how long this would seem to show they dont know what is happening hereand they were told that they should rest for a little while longer,Rest =1) to cause or permit one to cease from any movement or labour in order to recover and collect his strengthThey are to rest longer go back into their rest which is to cease from any labour to collect their strenghth until they return with Christ at his comingthis again would lead one to believe they are not aware not answering anyones prayers but resting for their return
     
  16. Agape

    Agape New Member

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    ENOCH AND ELIJAH The complication in examining the death of Enoch, stems from the word "translated." Some people believe that Enoch never saw death because God translated him directly to heavenHebrews 11:5 --- By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. The word "translated" is the word transported or transferred meaning "taken from one place to another." He was not taken from one "spot up" to another place; he was taken from one "place over" to another....that he should not see death.The word "see" is eidon, which means "to look at with actual perception with one's eyes" or to literally "see someone die." When checking the Old Testament one discovers that Enoch had never seen anyone pass away
    (Enoch is mentioned in the following places in the Bible: Genesis 5:21-24; Hebrews 11:5; Jude 14.)​
    Enoch pleased God all the time. For this fidelity God so loved Enoch that He took him from the place Enoch's loved ones would pass on and put him in a place where he could not literally see them die. Enoch did not see anyone else die, but he himself died. The Bible says so in Hebrews 11:5: "By faith Enoch;" verse 7 says, "By faith Noah," verse 8 says, "By faith Abraham, and verse 11 says, "through faith also Sara...." Then in verse 13, after listing Enoch, Noah, Abraham and Sara, Hebrews 11 says. "These all died...." All with exception died. If they all died, then Enoch is dead.-----------------------------------------------------------------------Elijah and ElishaIn order to understand verses 8-11 of 2 Kings 2, we need to look at the previous and following verses of verse 11.2 Kings 2:1, 3, 7, 8, 11, 16-18: (1) And it came to pass, when the LORD would take up Elijah into heaven by a whirlwind, that Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal. (3) And the sons of the prophets that [were] at Bethel came forth to Elisha, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the LORD will take away thy master from thy head to day? And he said, Yea, I know [it]; hold ye your peace. (7)And fifty men of the sons of the prophets went, and stood to view afar off: and they two stood by Jordan. (11) And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, [there appeared] a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven. (16) And they said unto him, Behold now, there be with thy servants fifty strong men; let them go, we pray thee, and seek thy master: lest peradventure the Spirit of the LORD hath taken him up, and cast him upon some mountain, or into some valley. And he said, Ye shall not send. (17) And when they urged him till he was ashamed, he said, Send. They sent therefore fifty men; and they sought three days, but found him not. (18) And when they came again to him, (for he tarried at Jericho,) he said unto them, Did I not say unto you, Go not? Elijah and Elisha moved ahead over the Jordan at Jericho. While the fifty sons and the prophet Elisha watched, Elijah was taken up to heaven as The Word discloses. However, this taken up cannot mean he was transported into the presence of God to abide with Him forever because the fifty sons of the prophets looked for Elijah for three days in the rocky slopes.If 2 Kings 2:11 meant that Elijah went straight up, the fifty sons of the prophets would never have looked for him on the land. "And Elisha went up by a whirlwind into heaven" means that God took Elisha. Elijah died away from Elisha and the fifty prophetic sons and is buried awaiting the resurrection.-----------------------------------------------------------------------MosesAccording to Deuteronomy 35:12, The Word says: "So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD."The Vision at the Transfiguration recorded in Matthew 17 has been used to show that Moses and Elijah are presence with God in heaven; however, this is not what the Word of God teaches.Matthew 17:1-3:(1)And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart, (2) And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light. (3) And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him. A key word is appeared. "Appeared" is translated in the Greek, optomai, which means "seeing objectively" or "envisioning," while ordinarily blepo, which means "using the eyes to look at" would be used. Peter, James and John did not see this phenomenon with their eyes but rather with their minds. Thus eye-sense was completely bypassed.God simply gave a vision of Moses and Elijah to Jesus who had gone up on a mountain to ponder his ministry and, specifically, his death. Moses and Elijah were not alive or made alive to have a rendezvous with Jesus Christ on the Mount of Transfiguration for Joshua 1:2 declares that "Moses my servant is dead." Elijah was also dead.Moses and Elijah were shown to Jesus and his three companions in a vision; the real persons did not appear because they are both dead awaiting the resurrection!Blessings,Agape
     
  17. Sir Knight

    Sir Knight New Member

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    If I'm not mistaken, doesn't scripture tell us that they were conversing with each other? Sounds very much like they were alive to me.
     
  18. crooner

    crooner New Member

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    peace be with youThief on cross, "you will be with me today in paradise"! Jesus died that day and was placed in the grave. His body and soul in grave. So how could he be in paradise that day.This is truly symbolic language. Basicly Jesus was saying today your saved!!!. When you look at scripture it is either literal or symbolicor parables. If you dont seperate certain scripture we would be following our tail around in circles asking the same questions over and over. When we look at scripture we have to be really honest. What is really going on here. If we cant be honest about a simple scripture like the thief on cross as being symbolic then what can we learn? Nothing.If we dont learn anything then why even argue or debate over scripture
     
  19. Sir Knight

    Sir Knight New Member

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    Where does scripture say that the soul remained in the grave?
     
  20. Agape

    Agape New Member

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    :study: The Malefactor and Paradise - "To Day" = FutureLuke 23:42 --- And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.Verse 43 --- And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, today shalt thou be with me in paradise.First of all, not that Jesus says paradise, not heaven. From the Septuagint the "paradise," paradeiso is translated "Eden" 16 times and "garden" 19 times. Paradeisos is never used in the Bible in any other sense than that of a place of beauty and delight upon earth. Paradise never refers to any place above the earth or under it.Paradise is described in Genesis 2 in its pure state, which purity was lost according to Genesis 3 with the entrance of Satan and the pronouncement of the curse. The restoration of Paradise is never cited, as far as regaining it and enjoying it, until after the last enemy, death, is destroyed. After death is destroyed, there will be a new heaven and a new earth as recorded in Revelation 22 when Satan shall be bound and the Lord Himself shall reign in His Kingdom.Read Revelation 22:1-5, 14 and 17, which describe describe the restoration of Paradise which was lost and which will not be restablished until all the prophecies of Revelation have come to pass. Thus when we read in Luke 23:43, "And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise," a glaring contradiction is exposed.If this malefactor could have been with Jesus on "this day." then paradise had to be available at that particular time. Paradise had to be here on earth on that day. The Word of God teaches that Paradise was lost with man's sin recorded in Genesis 3. Furthermore, The Word teaches that Paradise will not be restored until Revelation 22 is fulfilled, and the last enemy, death, is destroyed. How could this malefactor be with Jesus in Parade "that day" when he and Jesus were both dying and death was an imminent reality?Return to Luke 23:42: "And he [the malefactor] said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom." To have a kingdom there must be a king, for the word kingdom means "the reign of a king." The King of the Kingdom of heaven was crucified; thus the Kingdom from then until now is in abeyance and will not be reestablished upon the earth until after the return of Christ and the two resurrections. With the building of the New City, the New Jerusalem upon the earth, paradise will be restored.
    The Kingdom of God is not upon earth now because the present earth is not perfect. The Kingdom of God is the over-all rule of God in heaven and upon earth when both are perfect and complete. ​
    The malefactor's request was important and it was accurate. The circumstance under which the words were uttered indicated the wonderul believing of the malefactor. The answer Jesus gave was also very important. The word "verily" used by Jesus points to the earnestness and gravity of the occasion. On this very day when everything seems to be defeated, instead of the Kingdom being established and Jesus Christ reigning, He was dying a very infamous death. Then the following verse, verse 43 in Luke 23, has brought about misconception through punctuation errors. In the older text there were no commas so translators put in commas to fit their theology: ". . . Verily, I say unto thee, To day shal thou be with me in paradise." In the midst of an excruciating moment Jesus turned to the malefactor and said to him, "Verily I say unto thee this day thou shalt be with me in paradise." The comma must come AFTER the word "day." there was no paradise "To day," but there will be paradise in the new heaven and the new earth. On that day of Jesus' crucifixion, that malefactor dies upon the cross and the malefactor's body saw corruption; but God will raise him at the resurrection. That is why he "will be" --- at a future time --- with Jesus Christ in paradise. God bless you,Agape
     
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