Can saints see what's going on

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Agape

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Dec 24, 2007
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Brother crooner hit the mark there.Ecclesiastes 12 continues on top of the previous chatpers. We return (all souls!) to God (Ecc. 12:7) and, as Ecc. 9 states, the dead don't know the feelings of this world. I firmly believe that our Father can and does use them from time to time, but to say that they are sitting up there in heaven watching us all the time would be a fallacy.
Ecclessiastes 12:7 --- Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. It does not say "souls" -- it says "spirit." The "spirit" is what goes back to God. Soul is soul and spirit is spirit. John 4: 24 -- God is a Spirit....God created within man spirit, His image. Man now became body, soul, and spirit. Now God had a companion. The spirit part of man makes it possible for God to talk to man and for man to communicate with God. This gave them fellowship. So now we know from Isaiah and Thessalonians, that man was formed, made, and created and that he was body, soul, and spirit. Whenever scientists talk about creating life, this is a misnomer. Man may rediscover, revamp, reorganize, etc., but man cannot create. He cannot bring something into existence which did not previously exist. Man must always start with some substance so he is NOT creating. Only God can create. Keep in mind that when Adam and Eve sinned, they lost their spiritual connection with God. They received the spirit upon a condition -- that they would not disobey God, but they did. They became body and soul and everyone born into this world today is a body and soul person. Jesus Christ made it available for us to be born again of God's spirit by confessing Romans 10: 9, 10. Because of Adam, we lost our spiritual connection with God, but by the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ we are able to reclaim that connection.Man, as he was originally put together, surpasses the animal realm because he not only has body and soul, but also spirit. It is the spirit which sets man apart from the rest of creation. Because it is available for man to have spirit, God can communicate with His masterpiece.Ephesians 2: 22 -- In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through [in] the Spirit.Please read my post, Body, Soul and Spirit which explains the SOUL. http://www.christianityboard.com/can-saint...57.html?p=29060God bless you,Agape
 

Sir Knight

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Ecclessiastes 12:7 --- Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. It does not say "souls" -- it says "spirit." The "spirit" is what goes back to God. Soul is soul and spirit is spirit.
Is a soul physical or spiritual? It obviously isn't physical, so it has to be spiritual and your own quote shows that the spirit returns to God.
 

HammerStone

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The soul goes to the Father as you have documented. I think where some are getting confused here is that "looking down" upon the Earth is not the same as being with the Father. The Bible is absolutely explicit on the souls returning to God in Ecclesiates 12. However, as also documented, those who have gone on are done with the affairs of this world, and are not concerned with them. I don't see where anyone looking down upon this world could not become entangled. As I said, they know the will of YHVH and know what's going to go down here, but I don't believe they are watching us.
 

Agape

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Is a soul physical or spiritual? It obviously isn't physical, so it has to be spiritual and your own quote shows that the spirit returns to God.
Here is what I posted: It does not say "souls" -- it says "spirit." The "spirit" is what goes back to God. Soul is soul and spirit is spirit. Please read my post on Body, Soul and Spirit --- it's all explained from Scripture. It's the third post down.http://www.christianityboard.com/can-saint...57.html?p=29060God bless youAgape
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crooner

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I corrected him last week and he did it again Put soul instead of spirit was up with that???
 

Agape

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The soul goes to the Father as you have documented. I think where some are getting confused here is that "looking down" upon the Earth is not the same as being with the Father. The Bible is absolutely explicit on the souls returning to God in Ecclesiates 12. However, as also documented, those who have gone on are done with the affairs of this world, and are not concerned with them. I don't see where anyone looking down upon this world could not become entangled. As I said, they know the will of YHVH and know what's going to go down here, but I don't believe they are watching us.
Denver, the soul is breath-life. Did you read my post? I would appreciate it if you would show me scripture that says the SOUL goes back to God. The problem is that people think soul and spirit and the same and they are not. It's all explained in the Word of God which I give in my post. I laid it all out, the evidence is there and it's up to you and anyone else to take it from there -- Acts 17:11 and 2 Timothy 2:15.Love in Christ,Agape
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Christina

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I'll let Denver speak for himself but I see as we have a soul our true body state that self (soul) has a mind that thinks and a heart that feels it is the spirit of who we are it resides in the soul both of these are encased in a vessel called the fleshWhen the flesh dies we are a soul with our inner spirit
 

crooner

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How abuot this:What form is man that Jesus took on if it is not spirit? “And the Lord God formed man of the dust (body) of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath (spirit) of life: and man became a living soul.” Gen. 2:7. This states that man became a living soul with component parts of dust, spirit, and soul; not a living spirit or body. < “I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ” 1 Thes.5:23.>
 

Christina

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Good verse crooner thats kind of what Im saying the spirt can not live(be alive without the soul the flesh is nothingguess I could have finished my sentence but the phone rang:)
 

crooner

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· At the 1st death the body and soul go to the grave, and the spirits of all men go back to God. Soul: “What man is he that liveth, and shall not see death? Shall he deliver his soul form the hand of the grave” Psalm 89:47-49 Body: “Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it” (both righteous and wicked people’s spirit) Eccl.12:7. Spirit: “There is no man that hath power over the spirit to retain the spirit
 

whirlwind

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ENOCH AND ELIJAH Enoch pleased God all the time. For this fidelity God so loved Enoch that He took him from the place Enoch's loved ones would pass on and put him in a place where he could not literally see them die. Enoch did not see anyone else die, but he himself died. The Bible says so in Hebrews 11:5: "By faith Enoch;" verse 7 says, "By faith Noah," verse 8 says, "By faith Abraham, and verse 11 says, "through faith also Sara...." Then in verse 13, after listing Enoch, Noah, Abraham and Sara, Hebrews 11 says. "These all died...." All with exception died. If they all died, then Enoch is dead.
I disagree with part of your really well written post Agape. Whether or not it was an actual transfigured body of Moses and Elijah or whether it was a vision doesn't tell us if they did or did not physically die. However....your information on Enoch, is really thought provoking. The fact that (13) states, "These all died in faith...must certainly include Enoch.Thank you for pointing this out........Whirlwind
 

whirlwind

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Well its a real problem, because as Paul says, we have two bodies.I Corinthians 15
I agree. There are two:1 Corinthians 15:40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.The spirit is the intellect of the soul. As our bodies would be empty without our soul...so is the soul empty without the spirit..........Whirlwind
 

Christina

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I agree. There are two:1 Corinthians 15:40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.The spirit is the intellect of the soul. As our bodies would be empty without our soul...so is the soul empty without the spirit..........Whirlwind
I belive that to be true whirlwind without the spirit the soul is dead (empty) I see as we have a soul our true body state (minus flesh)that (soul) has a mind that thinks and a heart that feels it is the spirit of who we are it resides in the soul both of these are encased in a vessel called the fleshWhen the flesh dies we are a soul with our inner spiritcrooner has interesting scripture does the soul sleep after death so only spirit goes to God??
 

HammerStone

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My point with I Corinthians 15 was that there is a dividing line between the two, not dividing lines between the three. There is a spiritual and a physical body, there is no other purgatory or in between.II Corinthians 5:8
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
A lot of people try and misconstrue this verse as saying it's only related to our desires, but it's clearly being read wrong and one would have to ignore the clause that sets it off about confidence. The word is "we" - not soul nor spirit. If, as some have said, our soul is distinct from our spirit then this presents a problem when our soul goes one place and the spirit goes to God. This would imply that our soul separates from our spiritual body.The spirit is what has left the body behind, it returns, soul included to God. There's no holding place for the soul separated from the spirit after death.
 

Christina

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So you are agreeing that the two can not be seprate as the body dies without the soulthe soul dies without the spirit
 

whirlwind

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· At the 1st death the body and soul go to the grave, and the spirits of all men go back to God. Soul: “What man is he that liveth, and shall not see death? Shall he deliver his soul form the hand of the grave” Psalm 89:47-49 Body: “Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it” (both righteous and wicked people’s spirit) Eccl.12:7. Spirit: “There is no man that hath power over the spirit to retain the spirit
At our physical death our body goes to the grave. Our soul with spirit completely intact goes to our Father. I don't know what that soul/spirit does until the 2nd Advent of Christ. I do know that during the millennium no soul is asleep or dead (spiritually dead) because they will either teach or be taught during that 1,000 years. (except for the fallen angels who will be killed upon His arrival)The judgement of Christ at the beginning of the millennium places souls where they will spend that time. The judgment of God....the Great White Throne Judgment, at the end of the millennium will be the 2nd death....death of the soul for some.
“What man is he that liveth, and shall not see death? Shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave” Psalm 89:47-49
All men will see physical death and none of those men have the power to deliver his soul....that power belongs to our Father.
Body: “Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it” (both righteous and wicked people’s spirit) Eccl.12:7. Spirit: “There is no man that hath power over the spirit to retain the spirit
When the silver cord is loosed our body goes to dust. The terrestrial body is gone. Our spirit, the intellect of our soul....one unit, goes to God. That is the celestial body - our soul and spirit.I do wonder what the celestial bodies do until the Advent of Christ. Do they rest, do they travel to earth, do they learn, are some - the righteous, allowed to do things the wicked are kept from? Crooner, you've given us a lot to think about........Whirlwind
 

Agape

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I disagree with part of your really well written post Agape. Whether or not it was an actual transfigured body of Moses and Elijah or whether it was a vision doesn't tell us if they did or did not physically die. However....your information on Enoch, is really thought provoking. The fact that (13) states, "These all died in faith...must certainly include Enoch.
God buried Moses in the land of Moab and God said, "Moses my servant is DEAD." Joshua 1:2900 years after Elijah supposedly was taken up to heaven, Jesus Christ said "NO MAN ascended up to heaven, but He that came down from heaven, even the Son of man!" (John 3:13.) Is this a Bible contradiction? Did Elijah really ascend to the heaven where God’s throne is—even though Jesus said he didn’t? If Elijah is not in heaven today, then where did Elijah go? Elijah and Moses are dead now, but we will see them all when Christ returns to earth.
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Thank you for pointing this out........Whirlwind
You are welcome, and thank you.Love in Christ,Agape