Can saints see what's going on

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Agape

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Dec 24, 2007
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I'll let Denver speak for himself but I see as we have a soul our true body state that self (soul) has a mind that thinks and a heart that feels it is the spirit of who we are it resides in the soul both of these are encased in a vessel called the fleshWhen the flesh dies we are a soul with our inner spirit
Kriss, where do you get your information from? Where does it state in the Bible that when the flesh dies we are a soul with our inner spirit?Blessings,Agape
 

Agape

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Dec 24, 2007
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In bringing about mankind, God proceeded as follows:
He formed the body of man (Genesis 2:7); He made the soul of man (Genesis 2:7); and God created man in His image which is spirit (Genesis 1:27 and John 4:24).* God formed the body of man in the same substance or elements that one finds in the "dust of the earth." All substance eventually returns to its original state and the body therefore goes back to dust (Genesis 3:19).** The soul life is the "breath of life" of man (Genesis 2:7); and the life of the soul is in the blood (Leviticus 17:11). A man of body and soul is called in the Bible the "natural man," the man of the flesh, the carnal man. The soul is also called the "spirit of man" for the soul is physical life and is frequently referred to as "spirit" in its generic usage.* All life is spirit, but not all life is eternal-life spirit. Soul life is spirit, but not eternal. But the spirit from God in a man is eternal-life spirit. Soul life is the spirit of man which is passed on of ovum fertilization, which event begins the life of a new organism, the end result being an offspring. Soul is attested to by breathing. When breathing ceases soul life is no more. All living animals have a soul. In Genesis 1:20 and 30, "life" is the word for soul. In Genesis 1:21 and 24, "creature" is also the word soul.In Ecclesiastes 3:21, the "spirit of man" and the "spirit of the beast" is breath-life, the soul and is also the word "spirit" in Ecclesiastes 8:8.Can anyone see breath life? When one dies, does the last breath go upward or downward? Does a man's last breath go up and the beast's go down? How do you know when you cannot see it? We do know that no man can stop the last breath from leaving, and when breath is gone soul life for that man and for that beast is gone. Soul life continues by being passed on to one's progeny. God made soul life only once in the original man and has never made it again in man. {Except in the case of His only begotten Son, Jesus Christ, for whom He created soul life in Mary.) That same soul life is in all men today having been passed down from one generation to the next. Acts 17:26 says, "And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation."** In Ecclesiastes 12:7 "spirit" is not soul life---the spirit of man; it is the Spirit of God. God created man in His image, and the image of God is Spirit - John 4:24; "God is Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth." God as spirit can communicate with spirit only, the same as senses-communication is related only by the senses. The spirit which God originally created in man was on a condition - Genesis 2:16, 17 "And the Lord God commanded man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."**When man did not fulfill God's conditions, man sinned and was then dead in trespasses and sin. God had revoked His gift of spirit and therefore could no longer communicate with man unless God chose to come into concretion in one form or another in the senses realm. In not fulfilling the conditions which God had prescribed, man became a two-fold being of just body and soul. He became then a natural man limited to information gathered by the senses. Physical man looked the same both before and after he lost the spirit, but he was not the same. Man had lost his communication with God and, consequently, had to live with the faulty aid of his five senses.** After the original fall of man, God's gift of spirit was at times put on some people of God for a special mission at a special time, and even then the spirit was on them only "in measure," to a limited degree. Never did God fully put His spirit in man until the day of Pentecost, when every believer for the first time could have the spirit of God "born" within so man could again become a tripartite being of body, soul and spirit. This anointing with spirit from God places the believer again in the position where God can communicate directly with tripartite man. At the time of death this spirit goes back to God who gave it. Thus, as the body is formed of the dust, it must, according to all laws of life, return to dust. The soul was made in the blood and becomes non-existent with a man's last breath (except in offsprings). The spirit of God from God is created in the believer and at the end of natural life this created spirit must return to God of whom it is a part. When Christ returns for the Church "of the Body" (born-again believers), those who are dead (in Christ) are made alive and will put on incorruption - they shall receive new spiritual-bodies. Those who are alive and their bodies have not decayed or corrupted, they shall put on "immortality" - new spiritual bodies. I Corinthians 15:51-54:51. Behold, I shew you a mystery: We shall not all sleep [not all will be dead at Christ's return] but we [the members of the Church] shall be changed.52. In a moment, in a twinkling of an eye, the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we [which are alive at his return] shall be changed.53. For the corruptible [the dead of the Church of the Body] must put on incorruption, and this mortal [the living of the Church of the Body] must put on immortality.54. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. When the mortals have put on immortality and the dead and corrupted ones have been raised incorruptible, all shall have new bodies as is set forth in chapter 15 of I Corinthians. The natural body, the body of a person has before the return of Christ, has its limitations; but the spiritual body that He gives at His return is like His resurrected body --- unlimited in scope and activity. I Corinthians 15:44-50:44. It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body and there is a spiritual body.45. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [Jesus Christ] was made a quickening spirit.46. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.47. The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.48. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy; and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.49. And we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall [future] also bear the image of the heavenly.50. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither then does corruption inherit incorruption.Our fleshy body is a natural body. But with the gathering together, we shall have a new look, a new type of body --- a spiritual body. Until Christ comes, the dead remain in hades with corruptible physical bodies and unconsciousness. Love in Christ,Agape
 

whirlwind

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Nov 8, 2007
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God buried Moses in the land of Moab and God said, "Moses my servant is DEAD." Joshua 1:2900 years after Elijah supposedly was taken up to heaven, Jesus Christ said "NO MAN ascended up to heaven, but He that came down from heaven, even the Son of man!" (John 3:13.) Is this a Bible contradiction? Did Elijah really ascend to the heaven where God’s throne is—even though Jesus said he didn’t? If Elijah is not in heaven today, then where did Elijah go? Elijah and Moses are dead now, but we will see them all when Christ returns to earth.
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You are welcome, and thank you.Love in Christ,Agape
John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but He That came down from heaven, even the Son of man Which is in heaven.That scripture isn't about being "taken up" but rather Christ telling us that all men must be born from above. Our souls are with the Father and we must be born into this flesh life (come down from heaven) or we don't go back to heaven.....even the Son of man. This is a reference to the fallen angels which bypassed being born of woman on their trip to earth. So...there is no contradiction about Elijah.The story of Moses is different and contains many questions.Deuteronomy 34:5 So the Moses the servant of the Lord died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the Lord.6.And He buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Beth-peor: but no man knoweth of his sepulchre unto this day.7.And Moses was an hundred and twenty years old when he died: his eye was not dim, nor his natural force abated."The Lord buried Moses. This was said of no other. When he died he was the youngest of any of his kindred." ~ E.W. Bullinger.Joshua 1:1 Now after the death of Moses the servant of the Lord it came to pass, that the Lord spake unto Joshua the son of Nun, Moses' minister, saying,2."Moses My servant is dead; now therefore arise, go over this Jordan, thou, and all this People unto the land which I do give to them,even to the children of Israel.Matthew 17:2 And was transfigured before them: and His face did shine as the sun, and His raiment was white as the light.3.And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with Him.Do those scriptures truly tell us that Moses died or was he also "taken?" He was vibrant still, no one saw him die, no one saw his body. I assume it was Joshua that completed Deuteronomy for Moses and wonder if our Father actually said "dead" or perhaps simply....gone? Moses is gone and you will not see him again. I don't know.To me it seems that to be transfigured, as Moses and Elijah were, they would have to be living. Perhaps not, perhaps they could have died physically and these were their spiritual bodies, just as ours will be. Bullinger also writes - "Moses, representing the law and those to be raised from the dead. Elijah representing those caught up without dying." (He believed in a rapture. No one will be caught up without changing, leaving physical bodies behind, at His 2nd Advent) Some believe that Moses and Elijah will be the two witnesses of end times. The prophet and the law. Others believe that the "two" witnesses are actually a group of Christians in the spirit of Elijah and Moses.Interesting times ahead.......Whirlwind
 

Jerusalem Junkie

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Jan 7, 2008
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I don't think my man Moses will be one. Elijah and Enoch maybe. Got to consider Moses role in leading the Jews out of Egypt. Lest we forget, Moses only saw the Promised Land he was never allowed into it. Oh and speaking of Saints we are getting off on the Catholic road here aren't we. I know they play an important role in the Catholic Church.
 

Agape

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Dec 24, 2007
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John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but He That came down from heaven, even the Son of man Which is in heaven.That scripture isn't about being "taken up" but rather Christ telling us that all men must be born from above. Our souls are with the Father and we must be born into this flesh life (come down from heaven) or we don't go back to heaven.....even the Son of man. This is a reference to the fallen angels which bypassed being born of woman on their trip to earth. So...there is no contradiction about Elijah.
"The Son of man" is a title given to Christ. Whenever the article "the" is before "Son" it always refers to Christ. He was not talking about born-again believers and it has nothing at all to do with fallen angels. If you read and study all the places in the Gospels "the Son of man" is used you will see that it refers to Christ. Your answer is in the Bible not in man's doctrines.Jesus Christ was raised from the dead and ascended to the Father and EXCEPT for Jesus Christ, Elijah, Moses, Enoch and everyone else who has died are dead and will stay dead until Christ returns.God bless you,Agape
 

whirlwind

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Nov 8, 2007
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"The Son of man" is a title given to Christ.
You're kidding :eek:......I had no idea!
Whenever the article "the" is before "Son" it always refers to Christ.
You're kidding :eek:......I had no idea!
He was not talking about born-again believers and it has nothing at all to do with fallen angels.
My point was there are no "born again" believers. It doesn't mean to be "born again"...it means to be born from above for the reason previously stated. It has everything to do with fallen angels.
If you read and study all the places in the Gospels "the Son of man" is used you will see that it refers to Christ. Your answer is in the Bible not in man's doctrines.
Why do you think I don't know who the Son of man is? Why do you think I don't understand that it is Christ? What part of "man's doctrines" have I spoken of?
Jesus Christ was raised from the dead and ascended to the Father and EXCEPT for Jesus Christ, Elijah, Moses, Enoch and everyone else who has died are dead and will stay dead until Christ returns.God bless you,Agape
Well Agape, as much as I enjoy your outstanding Biblical teaching I'll continue to learn from others too. Although I can see that you believe no one else has any possibility of being correct in their understanding of His Word....I'll keep searching. Proverbs 26:12 Seest thou a man wise in his own conceit? There is more hope of a fool than of him.God bless you........Whirlwind
 

Agape

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Dec 24, 2007
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You're kidding :eek:......I had no idea!You're kidding :......I had no idea!
Well, now YOU DO! :pray3: Praise God!...and the angels are rejoicing!:amen:God bless you,Agape
 
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So with the Story of Lazarus and the Rich man, does anybody still believe that the Dead which Ecclesiates was speaking of, are Spiritual? I think the book means the body, because a Christian can never die, and if Abraham was able to speak to the Rich man in Hades, that should even be more indicative of the Souls that have passed, know what's going on.
 

bullfighter

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Jan 21, 2008
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i am here to find good fruits,and see who knows what is happening now in these times.....i will share what i know and what i think i know....first of all it is time to prepare to live out side this system..[not to live outside ,but to prepare]when the mark comes,not if.are you prepared to think with out panic,you do NOT need a leader.if you men do not have your place in shape your woman will panic and bring much stress to your path...first aid and emergency awarness top of the list.....now i can sit and talk talk talk ..but action is important....proverbs 30;25...PLEASE FORGIVE MY GRAMMER AND SPELLING..i am learning more as time goes by.NOW MAYBE YOU WILL NOT SEE THE MARK,I THINK YOU WILL ,but your children or grand children will forsure.will you pave the road for them to fail,or pave the way for them to stand up and deney the mark. when and what the mark is ,that is for debate.but the fact is you will not be able to buy or sell with out it.so we must live out side of these rules.o yes i know the very top of the list is jesus and god the father
 
Jan 15, 2008
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(bullfighter;32246)
i am here to find good fruits,and see who knows what is happening now in these times.....i will share what i know and what i think i know....first of all it is time to prepare to live out side this system..[not to live outside ,but to prepare]when the mark comes,not if.are you prepared to think with out panic,you do NOT need a leader.if you men do not have your place in shape your woman will panic and bring much stress to your path...first aid and emergency awarness top of the list.....now i can sit and talk talk talk ..but action is important....proverbs 30;25...PLEASE FORGIVE MY GRAMMER AND SPELLING..i am learning more as time goes by.NOW MAYBE YOU WILL NOT SEE THE MARK,I THINK YOU WILL ,but your children or grand children will forsure.will you pave the road for them to fail,or pave the way for them to stand up and deney the mark. when and what the mark is ,that is for debate.but the fact is you will not be able to buy or sell with out it.so we must live out side of these rules.o yes i know the very top of the list is jesus and god the father
This is a good point you raise here. I believe that many Christians miss this. Of course God the Father and Jesus Christ as Son should be placed first in our minds. We put our faith in them and it is their testimony and word which we take heed to in considering not only appropriate preparations but where our focus should be in our lifetime. The focus for everyone should be the same: faith in God and serving Him.Certainly as the signs, just like in a fig tree, reveal the unfolding of God's plan we WILL need to be ready. Nothing prepares you better then faith, but that faith should be constantly walking you into a greater understanding of God's word and hence a greater understanding of our role.You bring up a good point that I have only recently begun to give serious heed to. We DO need to be outside the current system, especially monetarily speaking. We NEED to get out of debt at all cost. We do NEED to raise our kids to not accept the mark, but I think that will come naturally to them if they can be kept in the word and the Way.Even if you teach someone not to accept the mark, even if you could outline to them exactly what this is, this does not necessarily of itself given them the power to overcome it's acceptance. We need to really know the word of God but much more than this to be walking in it as an example for them to follow. We need to have the guidance of the Holy Spirit to guide us and our children out of the deception and as you note; this needs to be done now or at least be ready for it in the now, not before it's too late. It only seems prudent to set appropriate dynamics before the need arises.If these are the times I do not look forward to them, and I am ready only as much as God has given me grace to be. I do not feel I am where I should be. That is not me doubting God. That is me being spiritually acute to my situation - I need to get moving, lol. I think that many will be thrown of base if these are the times, but I guess the same could be said a thousand years from now. I know there are some people offering courses on how to live off the land, etc for this sole concern. I think that Christians NEED to revert back to the old ways of the apostles in Christ time. Unfortunately I feel there is too much division among us, and too much of a love for material values. I know however that a remnant will be established.The apostles sold everything when they came to Christ and divided it amongst themselves as each had need. They were a community unto themselves. I think these communities will need to be formed again. If we are the body of Christ we should come together as one. I think we will need to live off the land, moreover off of God's grace and guidance. But never think of it in means of salvation at your own hand. Even this preparation will be of God if it is off God, but these are just my thoughts on it.I also know that we are not to fear the physical death, but rather He who sits on the throne, so a certain level of anxiety should be subdued when concerning these preparations, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be taken. It'd be a shame to survive the tribulation only to be damned to hell. :naughty:Currently I have really been praying over a way to leave money all together. I really don't like it and I do feel tied to its use and usury. I want out of this image all together. Whose to say that we will even see the mark, and even if in the end times you do, who's to say that you can't partake of it prior to it even without physically accepting it. I want to side with the Spirit of Christ all together wholly and now. Not when the need arises.I think this is one of the cruxes that we will be placed in during tribulation. There is no Rapture, at least before the tribulation. Okay certainly someone needs to start a new thread on this topic. I am more than curious now as to what others are doing. I always have this fear that the "others" the remnant are not online, lol. That's a joke, but with some side of seriousness to it. Isn't the work of Christ suppose to involve the laying on of hands? Anyways not saying you can't do both, but these are just one of many thing I don't currently have the answer for but am earnestly seeking.Christ did stress watch therefore and quite heavily. Many sit hands clasped in complacency. I'm not judging but just admitting that I myself have only recently began to awaken from this sleep.Good points you brought up there bullfighter, thanks.
 

Hawkins

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Jan 16, 2007
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Wicked souls and evil spirits are referred to as the 'souls' in Hades who God swear the Oath that "they shall never enter God's rest". Other souls are put to a sleep. Both those sleeping in Christ and those failed to enter God's rest will stay in Hades to wait for the final judgement.There are a few exceptions, including Moses and Elijah, they are carried by the angels to Abraham's Bosom to continue their spiritual work for God.Souls are spiritual, souls are call souls for 2 reasons;1. To distinguish the part of your 'self' from the part which will return to God after our death, I saw it once so I even know that it's in a shape of a flying dove, I bet that you'll see it by yourself (by your soul, to be more specific).2.Souls are call souls because only those once upon a time humans are called souls. So I think that those angels and fallen angels are referred to as spirits, only those once upon a time humans are referred to as souls. Evil spirits are called spirits for other reasons.Abraham's bosom is the paradise in the third heaven, as our Lord revealed to Paul. Those souls are not put to a sleep, that's why they show up in the fifth seal of revelation.Paradise is referring to as "a place reserved for the saved" disregarding its 'physical' locations. So other than the paradise in the third heaven (Abraham's Bosom), there could be one in Hades as well, where the souls being put to a sleep will stay.Similarly, Hell is "a place reserved for the unsaved" disregarding its 'physical' locations. AFAIK, the current location of Hell is in Hades (=shoel = pit = gloomy dungeons = darkness), where the wicked souls and evil spirits are awaken with those fallen angels.Before I read the Bible, before I was turned to a Christian, I experienced all the way down, including how one is put to a sleep (I believe). I had no clue what's going on by then. I didn't even know by then that 'soul' is different from 'spirit'.So can Saints know anything? my answer is that, if God wants them to know, then they know. While I believe that your prayers go directly to God, nothing is needed in between to convey the message. The dead will not hear you, while the saints will not hear you either, unless God tells them what you said.
 

haanne

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Oct 29, 2007
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can we not pray to Jesus? (no onecan come to the Father except through me. )
 

His By Grace

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Dec 28, 2007
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haanne, of course we can and should pray to Jesus for He is the only one who has the power to intercede for us to the Father. As I was reading through all of this, I kept waiting for someone to mention Hebrews Ch.12, Verse 1,"Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin that so easily ensnares us and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us." It has been said that these witnesses refer back to the saints in chapter 11. I would think that means that they have the ability to witness or see what the Lord allows them to as far as what is going on here on earth. Also, at the Mount of Transfiguration(Mark 9),Moses and Elijah appeared and were recognized by the disciples. They had to have some recognizable features like a body. Jesus said He was the Lord of the living, not the dead. So, as far as the physical body goes, it's irrelevant to where it is or what it's becoming, because we do know what's going on once we die. Also, the rich man and Lazarus story was not referred to as a parable,so it could have been true.