Can We Honor Jesus Christ Through His Mother Mary? a debate

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epostle1

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What is obvious is that there are no scripture in the New Testament that places such honor and practice IN worship to the New Testament churches.

If you wish to be a disciple of Jesus Christ in testifying of Him in seeking His honor & His glory, you cannot testify of another. As it is, many believers of other denomenations are being disciples of their denomenational church rather than being a disciple of Jesus Christ. If you miss my point, you cannot be a disciple of Jesus Christ by being a disciple of the Catholic Church. Either you stick with His words and the NT teachings to the churches or you are sticking to the words of the Catholic Catechism and the added errant extrabiblical teachings given to the churches after the days of the NT churches.

Anyone can see that the Catholic catechism is hardly the simplicity of the gospel any more, and for all that emphasis within it, you can hardly find it in the N.T. scripture, thus accusing Peter, the Catholic chosen and professed "rock" of their church ( which Peter really wasn't ) of being so negligent.

I have seen the movie "Silence" about two Jesuits priests in early Japan during the time that christianity was outlawed and christians ( meaning Catholics) were being persecuted and put to death. The one Jesuit testify of the suffering of Catholics there, having no priest for confessions and the Mass and infant water baptism. Imagine if there was no catholicism where it is out of the way so they can go directly to Jesus Christ. They would not be suffering. They would have no need of "holy relics" that if found, they would be arrested and put to trial by trampling on a stone carving of Jesus or else, be put to death. The Jesuit would not be defending Catholicism in vague generality as being the truth against Buddhism, but defending Jesus Christ and His words in how Jesus Christ is the Truth. So that one missing priest was correct when he said that the Japanese Catholics were dying for him ( the priest played by Andrew Garfield ) because of what he does for them that they so desperately need and were suffering for.

So catholicism does not bring any peace; it robs them of coming to Jesus Christ directly for forgiveness & that peace which can only comes from God. That is what I had seen in that movie titled "Silence" which is now out on DVD. I shall not share how it ended to spoil it, but I point out the spoiling of the Japanese christians under the weight of the works of catholicism.

Jesus is the door. Not the Catholic church. It is in Jesus we have life; not the Catholic church. Salvation is found in Jesus Christ. Not in the Catholic Church.

So a disciple is one that raises another up for all that hear him to go to. His disciple raises up Jesus Christ. Errant believers raises up a church.
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By 1579, there were about 130,000 converts, with Japanese Catholics in nearly every social class, and there were hundreds of Catholic churches throughout the country. In 1614, the Tokugawa government banned Catholicism in an effort to expunge foreign influences. All foreign missionaries were ousted and Japanese Catholics directed to apostatize or face torture and execution.

It is in this historical setting that Silence begins. Based on a 1966 book by Japanese author Shusaku Endo, it tells the story of two young Jesuit priests who go to Japan to find their former superior, whom they heard had left the Catholic faith.

The priests become troubled at the horrific torture and gruesome deaths some Japanese martyrs faced rather than renounce their faith by trampling on an image of Jesus Christ or the Blessed Virgin Mary. One of the priests encourages them to apostatize in order to avoid torture, until he himself is faced with the choice to abandon the Catholic faith in the final scene.

A group of Japanese Catholics are tortured, and he is told it will end if he steps on the holy image as a denial of the Faith. It is at that point the priest hears the voice of Christ saying, "You may trample. You may trample. I more than anyone know of the pain in your foot. You may trample. It was to be trampled on by men that I was born into this world. It was to share men's pain that I carried My Cross."

Earlier, the Jesuit superior says to the young priest, "If Christ were here, He would apostatize for their sake," reasoning that [t]o give up your faith is the most painful act of love."

The struggling Jesuit gives in to the alleged voice of Christ, tramples on the image of Christ, thereby making a public renunciation of the Faith. It is on this note that the film ends.
Scorsese's 'Silence' Pushes Apostasy
 

JesusIsFaithful

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I'm still waiting for you to tell me WHEN Mary was "Full of Grace".

Word search at Bible Gateway comes up with only one verse that this special title belongs to, and that is towards the Son.

BibleGateway - : full grace

John 1:14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

So Mary was never full of grace as reported in scripture so it is a misapplication of scripture in how Mary was favoured to call her full of grace.

Luke 1:28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.29 And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be.30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name Jesus.

Mary was highly favoured because the Lord is with her; she was blessed among women to bear the the Christ Child. That is not saying she was full of grace. That is saying God gave her grace by favoring Mary among women to bear the Christ Child.

Scriptures testifies of the Son for you to go to Him; not to Mary. There is no honoring Jesus by honoring Mary. You honor Jesus by honoring Jesus.

John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. 40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
 

JesusIsFaithful

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By 1579, there were about 130,000 converts, with Japanese Catholics in nearly every social class, and there were hundreds of Catholic churches throughout the country. In 1614, the Tokugawa government banned Catholicism in an effort to expunge foreign influences. All foreign missionaries were ousted and Japanese Catholics directed to apostatize or face torture and execution.

It is in this historical setting that Silence begins. Based on a 1966 book by Japanese author Shusaku Endo, it tells the story of two young Jesuit priests who go to Japan to find their former superior, whom they heard had left the Catholic faith.

The priests become troubled at the horrific torture and gruesome deaths some Japanese martyrs faced rather than renounce their faith by trampling on an image of Jesus Christ or the Blessed Virgin Mary. One of the priests encourages them to apostatize in order to avoid torture, until he himself is faced with the choice to abandon the Catholic faith in the final scene.

A group of Japanese Catholics are tortured, and he is told it will end if he steps on the holy image as a denial of the Faith. It is at that point the priest hears the voice of Christ saying, "You may trample. You may trample. I more than anyone know of the pain in your foot. You may trample. It was to be trampled on by men that I was born into this world. It was to share men's pain that I carried My Cross."

Earlier, the Jesuit superior says to the young priest, "If Christ were here, He would apostatize for their sake," reasoning that [t]o give up your faith is the most painful act of love."

The struggling Jesuit gives in to the alleged voice of Christ, tramples on the image of Christ, thereby making a public renunciation of the Faith. It is on this note that the film ends.
Scorsese's 'Silence' Pushes Apostasy

Thank you for sharing, but I saw needless sufferings of Catholics when there was no priest. All they had to do was go to Jesus Christ directly and not look for a priest for the confessionals nor to perform the Mass nor perform infant water baptism to make themselves or their kids right before God.
 

epostle1

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Luke 1:28 “And he came to her and said, ‘Hail, O favored one, the Lord is with you!'”

Catholics believe that this verse is an indication of the sinlessness of Mary – itself the kernel of the more developed doctrine of the Immaculate Conception. But that is not apparent at first glance (especially if the verse is translated “highly favored” – which does not bring to mind sinlessness in present-day language).

Protestants are hostile to the notions of Mary’s freedom from actual sin and her Immaculate Conception (in which God freed her from original sin from the moment of her conception) because they feel that this makes her a sort of goddess and improperly set apart from the rest of humanity. They do not believe that it was fitting for God to set her apart in such a manner, even for the purpose of being the Mother of Jesus Christ, and don’t see that this is “fitting” or “appropriate” (as Catholics do).

The great Baptist Greek scholar A.T. Robertson exhibits a Protestant perspective, but is objective and fair-minded, in commenting on this verse as follows:

“Highly favoured” (kecharitomene). Perfect passive participle of charitoo and means endowed with grace (charis), enriched with grace as in Ephesians. 1:6, . . . The Vulgate gratiae plena “is right, if it means ‘full of grace which thou hast received‘; wrong, if it means ‘full of grace which thou hast to bestow‘” (Plummer).

(Robertson, II, 13)​

Kecharitomene has to do with God’s grace, as it is derived from the Greek root, charis (literally, “grace”). Thus, in the KJV, charis is translated “grace” 129 out of the 150 times that it appears. Greek scholar Marvin Vincent noted that even Wycliffe and Tyndale (no enthusiastic supporters of the Catholic Church) both rendered kecharitomene in Luke 1:28 as “full of grace” and that the literal meaning was “endued with grace” (Vincent, I, 259).

Likewise, well-known Protestant linguist W.E. Vine, defines it as “to endue with Divine favour or grace” (Vine, II, 171). All these men (except Wycliffe, who probably would have been, had he lived in the 16th century or after it) are Protestants, and so cannot be accused of Catholic translation bias. Even a severe critic of Catholicism like James White can’t avoid the fact that kecharitomene (however translated) cannot be divorced from the notion of grace, and stated that the term referred to “divine favor, that is, God’s grace” (White, 201).

Of course, Catholics agree that Mary has received grace. This is assumed in the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception: it was a grace from God which could not possibly have had anything to do with Mary’s personal merit, since it was granted by God at the moment of her conception, to preserve her from original sin (as appropriate for the one who would bear God Incarnate in her very body).

The Catholic argument hinges upon the meaning of kecharitomene. For Mary this signifies a state granted to her, in which she enjoys an extraordinary fullness of grace. Charis often refers to a power or ability which God grants in order to overcome sin (and this is how we interpret Luke 1:28). This sense is a biblical one, as Greek scholar Gerhard Kittel points out:

Grace is the basis of justification and is also manifested in it ([Rom.] 5:20-21). Hence grace is in some sense a state (5:2), although one is always called into it (Gal. 1:6), and it is always a gift on which one has no claim. Grace is sufficient (1 Cor. 1:29) . . . The work of grace in overcoming sin displays its power (Rom. 5:20-21) . . .(Kittel, 1304-1305)
Protestant linguist W.E. Vine concurs that charis can mean “a state of grace, e.g., Rom. 5:2; 1 Pet. 5:12; 2 Pet. 3:18” (Vine, II, 170). One can construct a strong biblical argument from analogy, for Mary’s sinlessness. For St. Paul, grace (charis) is the antithesis and “conqueror” of sin (emphases added in the following verses):
Romans 6:14
Ephesians 2:8-10
Thus, the biblical argument outlined above proceeds as follows:

1. Grace saves us.

2. Grace gives us the power to be holy and righteous and without sin.

Therefore, for a person to be full of grace is both to be saved and to be completely, exceptionally holy. It’s a “zero-sum game”: the more grace one has, the less sin. One might look at grace as water, and sin as the air in an empty glass (us). When you pour in the water (grace), the sin (air) is displaced. A full glass of water, therefore, contains no air (see also, similar zero-sum game concepts in 1 John 1:7, 9; 3:6, 9; 5:18). To be full of grace is to be devoid of sin. Thus we might re-apply the above two propositions:

1. To be full of the grace that saves is surely to be saved.

2. To be full of the grace that gives us the power to be holy, righteous, and without sin is to be fully without sin, by that same grace.

A deductive, biblical argument for the Immaculate Conception, with premises derived directly from Scripture, might look like this:

1. The Bible teaches that we are saved by God’s grace.

2. To be “full of” God’s grace, then, is to be saved.

3. Therefore, Mary is saved (Luke 1:28).

4. The Bible teaches that we need God’s grace to live a holy life, free from sin.

5. To be “full of” God’s grace is thus to be so holy that one is sinless.

6. Therefore, Mary is holy and sinless.

7. The essence of the Immaculate Conception is sinlessness.

8. Therefore, the Immaculate Conception, in its essence, can be directly deduced from Scripture.

The only way out of the logic would be to deny one of the two premises, and hold either that grace does not save or that grace is not that power which enables one to be sinless and holy. It is highly unlikely that any Evangelical Protestant would take such a position, so the argument is a very strong one, because it proceeds upon their own premises.

In this fashion, the essence of the Immaculate Conception (i.e., the sinlessness of Mary) is proven from biblical principles and doctrines accepted by every orthodox Protestant. Certainly all mainstream Christians agree that grace is required both for salvation and to overcome sin. So in a sense my argument is only one of degree, deduced (almost by common sense, I would say) from notions that all Christians hold in common.

One possible quibble might be about when God applied this grace to Mary. We know (from Luke 1:28) that she had it as a young woman, at the Annunciation. Catholics believe that God gave her the grace at her conception so that she might avoid the original sin that she otherwise would have inherited, being human. Therefore, by God’s preventive grace, she was saved from falling into the pit of sin, rather than rescued after she had fallen in.

All of this follows straightforwardly from Luke 1:28 and the (primarily Pauline) exegesis of charis elsewhere in the New Testament. It would be strange for a Protestant to underplay grace, when they are known for their constant emphasis on grace alone for salvation. (We Catholics fully agree with that; we merely deny the tenet of “faith alone,” as contrary to the clear teaching of St. James and St. Paul.)

Protestants keep objecting that these Catholic beliefs are speculative; that is, that they go far beyond the biblical evidence. But once one delves deeply enough into Scripture and the meanings of the words of Scripture, they are not that speculative at all. Rather, it looks much more like Protestant theology has selectively trumpeted the power of grace when it applies to all the rest of us Christian believers, but downplayed it when it applies to the Blessed Virgin Mary.

What we have, then, is not so much a matter of Catholics reading into Scripture, as Protestants, in effect, reading certain passages out of Scripture altogether (that is, ignoring their strong implications), because they do not fit in with their preconceived notions.
 

JesusIsFaithful

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Luke 1:28 “And he came to her and said, ‘Hail, O favored one, the Lord is with you!'”

Catholics believe that this verse is an indication of the sinlessness of Mary – itself the kernel of the more developed doctrine of the Immaculate Conception. But that is not apparent at first glance (especially if the verse is translated “highly favored” – which does not bring to mind sinlessness in present-day language).

Protestants are hostile to the notions of Mary’s freedom from actual sin and her Immaculate Conception (in which God freed her from original sin from the moment of her conception) because they feel that this makes her a sort of goddess and improperly set apart from the rest of humanity. They do not believe that it was fitting for God to set her apart in such a manner, even for the purpose of being the Mother of Jesus Christ, and don’t see that this is “fitting” or “appropriate” (as Catholics do).

The great Baptist Greek scholar A.T. Robertson exhibits a Protestant perspective, but is objective and fair-minded, in commenting on this verse as follows:

“Highly favoured” (kecharitomene). Perfect passive participle of charitoo and means endowed with grace (charis), enriched with grace as in Ephesians. 1:6, . . . The Vulgate gratiae plena “is right, if it means ‘full of grace which thou hast received‘; wrong, if it means ‘full of grace which thou hast to bestow‘” (Plummer).

(Robertson, II, 13)​

Kecharitomene has to do with God’s grace, as it is derived from the Greek root, charis (literally, “grace”). Thus, in the KJV, charis is translated “grace” 129 out of the 150 times that it appears. Greek scholar Marvin Vincent noted that even Wycliffe and Tyndale (no enthusiastic supporters of the Catholic Church) both rendered kecharitomene in Luke 1:28 as “full of grace” and that the literal meaning was “endued with grace” (Vincent, I, 259).

Likewise, well-known Protestant linguist W.E. Vine, defines it as “to endue with Divine favour or grace” (Vine, II, 171). All these men (except Wycliffe, who probably would have been, had he lived in the 16th century or after it) are Protestants, and so cannot be accused of Catholic translation bias. Even a severe critic of Catholicism like James White can’t avoid the fact that kecharitomene (however translated) cannot be divorced from the notion of grace, and stated that the term referred to “divine favor, that is, God’s grace” (White, 201).

Of course, Catholics agree that Mary has received grace. This is assumed in the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception: it was a grace from God which could not possibly have had anything to do with Mary’s personal merit, since it was granted by God at the moment of her conception, to preserve her from original sin (as appropriate for the one who would bear God Incarnate in her very body).

The Catholic argument hinges upon the meaning of kecharitomene. For Mary this signifies a state granted to her, in which she enjoys an extraordinary fullness of grace. Charis often refers to a power or ability which God grants in order to overcome sin (and this is how we interpret Luke 1:28). This sense is a biblical one, as Greek scholar Gerhard Kittel points out:

Grace is the basis of justification and is also manifested in it ([Rom.] 5:20-21). Hence grace is in some sense a state (5:2), although one is always called into it (Gal. 1:6), and it is always a gift on which one has no claim. Grace is sufficient (1 Cor. 1:29) . . . The work of grace in overcoming sin displays its power (Rom. 5:20-21) . . .(Kittel, 1304-1305)
Protestant linguist W.E. Vine concurs that charis can mean “a state of grace, e.g., Rom. 5:2; 1 Pet. 5:12; 2 Pet. 3:18” (Vine, II, 170). One can construct a strong biblical argument from analogy, for Mary’s sinlessness. For St. Paul, grace (charis) is the antithesis and “conqueror” of sin (emphases added in the following verses):
Romans 6:14
Ephesians 2:8-10
Thus, the biblical argument outlined above proceeds as follows:

1. Grace saves us.

2. Grace gives us the power to be holy and righteous and without sin.

Therefore, for a person to be full of grace is both to be saved and to be completely, exceptionally holy. It’s a “zero-sum game”: the more grace one has, the less sin. One might look at grace as water, and sin as the air in an empty glass (us). When you pour in the water (grace), the sin (air) is displaced. A full glass of water, therefore, contains no air (see also, similar zero-sum game concepts in 1 John 1:7, 9; 3:6, 9; 5:18). To be full of grace is to be devoid of sin. Thus we might re-apply the above two propositions:

1. To be full of the grace that saves is surely to be saved.

2. To be full of the grace that gives us the power to be holy, righteous, and without sin is to be fully without sin, by that same grace.

A deductive, biblical argument for the Immaculate Conception, with premises derived directly from Scripture, might look like this:

1. The Bible teaches that we are saved by God’s grace.

2. To be “full of” God’s grace, then, is to be saved.

3. Therefore, Mary is saved (Luke 1:28).

4. The Bible teaches that we need God’s grace to live a holy life, free from sin.

5. To be “full of” God’s grace is thus to be so holy that one is sinless.

6. Therefore, Mary is holy and sinless.

7. The essence of the Immaculate Conception is sinlessness.

8. Therefore, the Immaculate Conception, in its essence, can be directly deduced from Scripture.

The only way out of the logic would be to deny one of the two premises, and hold either that grace does not save or that grace is not that power which enables one to be sinless and holy. It is highly unlikely that any Evangelical Protestant would take such a position, so the argument is a very strong one, because it proceeds upon their own premises.

In this fashion, the essence of the Immaculate Conception (i.e., the sinlessness of Mary) is proven from biblical principles and doctrines accepted by every orthodox Protestant. Certainly all mainstream Christians agree that grace is required both for salvation and to overcome sin. So in a sense my argument is only one of degree, deduced (almost by common sense, I would say) from notions that all Christians hold in common.

One possible quibble might be about when God applied this grace to Mary. We know (from Luke 1:28) that she had it as a young woman, at the Annunciation. Catholics believe that God gave her the grace at her conception so that she might avoid the original sin that she otherwise would have inherited, being human. Therefore, by God’s preventive grace, she was saved from falling into the pit of sin, rather than rescued after she had fallen in.

All of this follows straightforwardly from Luke 1:28 and the (primarily Pauline) exegesis of charis elsewhere in the New Testament. It would be strange for a Protestant to underplay grace, when they are known for their constant emphasis on grace alone for salvation. (We Catholics fully agree with that; we merely deny the tenet of “faith alone,” as contrary to the clear teaching of St. James and St. Paul.)

Protestants keep objecting that these Catholic beliefs are speculative; that is, that they go far beyond the biblical evidence. But once one delves deeply enough into Scripture and the meanings of the words of Scripture, they are not that speculative at all. Rather, it looks much more like Protestant theology has selectively trumpeted the power of grace when it applies to all the rest of us Christian believers, but downplayed it when it applies to the Blessed Virgin Mary.

What we have, then, is not so much a matter of Catholics reading into Scripture, as Protestants, in effect, reading certain passages out of Scripture altogether (that is, ignoring their strong implications), because they do not fit in with their preconceived notions.

Interjecting meaning into what is not plainly written is the problem here, but I can see how by doing so, you would believe that.

The question is; how easy would it be for that to be written plainly as such in the scripture when saluting Mary? Scripture testify of the Son of being full of grace and truth ( John 1:14 ), so why not simply say so in saluting Mary? Because that was not the salutation given her.

Flee the works of catholicism as this music video testifies that it is not by what you have done, but Who He is that is bringing you Home. Amen.


Seen any music video praising the works of catholicism in bringing you Home? I don't.
 

epostle1

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Interjecting meaning into what is not plainly written is the problem here, but I can see how by doing so, you would believe that.

The question is; how easy would it be for that to be written plainly as such in the scripture when saluting Mary? Scripture testify of the Son of being full of grace and truth ( John 1:14 ), so why not simply say so in saluting Mary? Because that was not the salutation given her.
Luke 1:28 uses the same description as John 1:14, the only 2 places in scripture that uses "kecharitomene". "Highly favored" is a highly inaccurate translation from the Greek. It doesn't mean equality, contrary to your dichotomous mind set, it means "Full of Grace".

Flee the works of catholicism as this music video testifies that it is not by what you have done, but Who He is that is bringing you Home. Amen.
I don't know what the "works of Catholicism" are. Looks like typical bible hate cult propaganda to me. I'm proud of the fact that we have the largest charity in the world, but that's service to humanity, not "works of Catholicism." We don't proselytize through our orphanages and hospitals, and Protestants often work with us. You have so much hostility you can't see straight.
Seen any music video praising the works of catholicism in bringing you Home? I don't.
There you go again... Defending Catholicism against a tidal wave of falsehoods (you have plenty of those) is not "praising the works of catholicism" anymore than you praising the work of [insert your church here]

Thanks for the video, I've always liked Casting Crowns. And I have signed albums by Keith Green and Larry Norman from 1972.

quote-i-believe-in-god-not-in-a-catholic-god-there-is-no-catholic-god-there-is-god-and-i-believe-in-pope-francis-388028.jpg
 
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JesusIsFaithful

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Luke 1:28 uses the same description as John 1:14, the only 2 places in scripture that uses "kecharitomene". "Highly favored" is a highly inaccurate translation from the Greek. It doesn't mean equality, contrary to your dichotomous mind set, it means "Full of Grace".

What assurances do you have that kechantomene means anything else but highly favoured in Luke 1:28 since it is hardly the same in John 1:14 when it follows after the Greek word plhrh V from which "full" was translated from and then carito V where grace was translated from?

Between these two places, you have to wonder about the accuracy of the definition of kechantomene since it is spelled differently when looking it up.

I don't know what the "works of Catholicism" are.

"For it is through Christ’s Catholic Church alone, which is the universal help toward salvation, that the fullness of the means of salvation can be obtained. It was to the apostoliccollege alone, of which Peter is the head, that we believe thatour Lord entrusted all the blessings of the New Covenant, in order to establish on earth the one Body of Christ into which all those should be fully incorporated who belong in any way to the People of God.” ~ Catholic Catechsim PG 215

“All the activities of the Church are directed, as toward their end, to the sanctification of men in Christ and the glorification of God.” 292 It is in the Church that “the fullness of the means of salvation” has been deposited. It is in her that “by the grace of God we acquire holiness.” ~ Catholic Catechism PG 218

830 ....."In her subsists the fullness of Christ’s body united with its head; this implies that she receives from him “the fullness of the means of salvation” ~ Catholic Catechism pg 222

"
“Outside the Church there is no salvation”

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? 335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body: Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it." ~ Catholic Catechism pg 224

"1113 The whole liturgical life of the Church revolves around the Eucharisticsacrificeandthesacraments.29 There are seven sacraments
in the Church: Baptism, Confirmation or Chrismation, Eucharist, Penance, Anointing of the Sick, Holy Orders, and Matrimony." ~ Catholic Catechism PG 289

"1129 The Church affirms that for believers the sacraments of the NewCovenant are necessary for salvation." ~ Catholic Catechism Pg 292

"Even though incorporated into the Church, one who does not however persevere in charity is not saved." ~ Catholic Catechism PG 222

Those are the works of catholicism necessary for salvation as per the Catholic Catechism, and not just by being a member of the Catholic Church.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

For the Catholic Catechism to teach that faith in Jesus Christ for salvation was not enough, puts the obtaining of that salvation on every believer in Catholicism; in essence .. Jesus Christ is not really the Saviour when it is on the believer to save themselves by joining the Catholic Church and doing the sacraments within AND persevering in love and so salvation is an ongoing process where no one can say that Jesus Christ has really saved them.

Therefore, the works of catholicism is an example of laboring in unbelief when believers are saved for believing in the Lord Jesus Christ and tat God raised Him from the dead. That is why we can tell people the Good News now that all who believe in Jesus Christ are saved as promised.

John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

We are to lift up Jesus Christ for all sinners to go to; not the church. Jesus is able to save those who believe in Him because He is God.

Thanks for the video, I've always liked Casting Crowns. And I have signed albums by Keith Green and Larry Norman from 1972.

You are welcome, brother.


Scripture places the glory of the title of the Light & Creator specifically on the Son.

John 1:1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. 6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. 8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. 9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
 

Mungo

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kecharitomene

In Lk 1:18 the angel greets Mary with the Greek word kecharitomene which is sometimes translated as “highly favoured”. However this a rather weak translation and more accurately is should be translated as “full of grace”. Even that is a simplification. The Greek kecharitomene is the perfect passive participle of the Greek charitoo. It means endowed with grace. The Greek perfect tense denotes something which took place in the past and continues in the present.

"It is permissible, on Greek grammatical and linguistic grounds, to paraphrase kecharitomene as completely, perfectly, enduringly endowed with grace." (Blass and DeBrunner, Greek Grammar of the New Testament).

Saint Jerome, who was trilingual in Latin, Geek and Hebrew translated it as gratiae plena (full of grace) in the Vulgate (beginning of 5th century.
 

epostle1

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Word search at Bible Gateway comes up with only one verse that this special title belongs to, and that is towards the Son.

BibleGateway - : full grace

John 1:14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

So Mary was never full of grace as reported in scripture so it is a misapplication of scripture in how Mary was favoured to call her full of grace.
It's quite plain what the angel said, and you are denying kecharitomene, and you are in disagreement with Protestant scholars as I pointed our in the above post that you ignored. Not only that, you are in defiance to all the early reformers that taught the Immaculate Conception. I don't know what brand of Protestantism you follow that invents it's own doctrines apart from their very own reformers.

Luke 1:28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.29 And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be.30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name Jesus.
The angel didn't give Mary grace, God already did that. You just refuse to admit WHEN.

Mary was highly favoured because the Lord is with her; she was blessed among women to bear the the Christ Child. That is not saying she was full of grace. That is saying God gave her grace by favoring Mary among women to bear the Christ Child.
You still can't admit when the Lord first "highly favored" her.

Scriptures testifies of the Son for you to go to Him; not to Mary.
A total misrepresentation. See my OP.
There is no honoring Jesus by honoring Mary. You honor Jesus by honoring Jesus.
Your mind is slammed shut. It's not the same kind of honor. Scripture tells us to honor certain people. That's called dulia. Hyperdulia is special honor we give to Mary because she deserves it, but it is the same kind of honor we give to people. Latria is worship for God alone. We don't give Mary latria.
[quoteJohn 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. 40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.[/QUOTE] Nobody ever claimed that Mary gives eternal life.
 

JesusIsFaithful

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It's not the same kind of honor. Scripture tells us to honor certain people.

You do not honor people while honoring the Son of God in the spiritual realm in worship. You are to honor living people down here, outside of worship because only Jesus Christ is to be honored in worship of God. Worship belongs only to God.

Honoring Mary, regardless of it not being the same thing, cannot be included in christian worship of God or any kind of "worship" in christianity.

Nobody ever claimed that Mary gives eternal life.

What about Mary as the Lady of Fatima? According to Our Lady of Fatima (whose teachings are officially sanctioned by the Vatican), a person can obtain eternal life through Mary by reciting the Rosary. The 5th of the 15 promises made by Our Lady of Fatima concerning the Rosary is "The soul which recommends itself to Me by the recitation of the Rosary, shall not perish." The Source of this is located here at the link below:

Essential: Requests: The 15 Promises of Our Lady to Christians Who Recite the Rosary

Now according to this former Catholic nun, she testified that she was worshiping Mary and did not know it. Here's how she saw the truth.

MARY WORSHIP by Mary Ann Collins (A Former Catholic Nun)

For the last time; if any one wants to honor Jesus, then honor Jesus. The real Mary is doing that so why do anything else?

I am done with the subject, brother, because there is no more to say on the matter. I preach Jesus Christ and Him crucified, but you cannot say the same.

1 Corinthians 2:2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

And that is why nobody has been honoring Mary as a part of christian worship in any of the early churches in the New Testament.
 
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BreadOfLife

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Mar_10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

Of only God is good than only He can be Holy even so the Holy Sprit and our Risen Lord, but men,, not while in the flesh we cannot be You call so many things Holy and do not honour God by doing so, just stealing more away from Him as you have done and continue to do.
WRONG, my linguistically-challenged friend.
"Holy" simply means "set apart" for God.

If you're not living a holy life - you had batter start . . .
 

epostle1

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You do not honor people while honoring the Son of God in the spiritual realm in worship. You are to honor living people down here, outside of worship because only Jesus Christ is to be honored in worship of God. Worship belongs only to God.
Yes, that is a Catholic doctrine you borrowed from us. It's called latria. There are two types of honor for people and has NOTHING to do with worship of God. I wonder how many times I have to repeat myself.

Honoring Mary, regardless of it not being the same thing, cannot be included in christian worship of God or any kind of "worship" in christianity.
More misrepresentations. According to your criteria, NOBODY can be included in Christian worship of God. Are you in some bizarre cult? Is it big enough to have a web page?

What about Mary as the Lady of Fatima? According to Our Lady of Fatima (whose teachings are officially sanctioned by the Vatican), a person can obtain eternal life through Mary by reciting the Rosary. The 5th of the 15 promises made by Our Lady of Fatima concerning the Rosary is "The soul which recommends itself to Me by the recitation of the Rosary, shall not perish." The Source of this is located here at the link below:

Essential: Requests: The 15 Promises of Our Lady to Christians Who Recite the Rosary

One must have the proper disposition because it isn't magic. It's the same as having the proper disposition too accept Jesus as Savior.

Now according to this former Catholic nun, she testified that she was worshiping Mary and did not know it. Here's how she saw the truth.

MARY WORSHIP by Mary Ann Collins (A Former Catholic Nun)
This garbage explains why you are so hard headed. You have been mainlining the venom of hate cult propaganda and only the Holy Spirit can heal your blind prejudice.. There is no evidence that Mary Ann Collins even exists.

Mary Ann Collins' biography is interesting. The story goes that she was a protestant who fell in love with a Catholic guy in college, she apparently converted, then her boyfriend moved away, she continued to go to Mass, studied with a priest, went into the convent for a couple of years, got kicked out, and then joined the Methodist denomination of her parents. Now she says she is an ex-nun and has a web testimony that has made the rounds of Evangelical apologetics sites. There are a few things that seem odd in her testimony:

  • "She" says she was baptized Catholic after a couple of years of going to mass and studying the Catholic faith. If she was a former Protestant, she would have been baptized in that denomination, in which case you can't be baptised again. The Catholic Church recognizes the validity of a baptism in another denomination. Of course, your pre-concieved notions won't permit you to accept that fact regardless of how many documents I show you.
  • Studied Catholicism under a "conservative" priest for several years before her "baptism into the Catholic" faith, yet she doesn't seem to understand this basic tenet (above) of Catholicism. What is even more surprising is that this "conservative priest" she mentions in her story didn't know it either.
  • Went to a parish that had a liberal priest. Her story goes "One Christmas, at Midnight Mass, the priest taught that the Christmas story as presented in the Bible is basically a pious fairy tale to make people feel good, but it has nothing to do with reality." No doubt every denomination has its share of flaky liberal clergy... but in over 30 years going to Catholic churches we've never heard that.
  • You can't become a nun in 2 years. It requires several months of live in, a year of novitiate, and another two years before final vows.
  • She says she never made her vows, but claims that Catholic Encyclopedia says that if you wore a habit you are a Nun... uhhh... actually that line in the Encyclopedia refers to nuns in the 9th century. There is not one Catholic today that would call themselves a nun before making final vows.
  • Why would someone who claims to have been on a search for the Truth about Jesus, be so careless with the truth about their personal life, and misrepresent herself as a nun to gain credibility?
  • What is more interesting is that no one has ever claimed to have met Mary Ann Collins.
  • It has never been known which order she "joined".
  • No comments have ever been documented from any religious order about her existence.
  • No announcements about personal appearances such as book presentations in churches, interviews or talks. There are no photos of her. She says "I no longer get involved in doctrinal debates. I’ve spent many long hours doing that and enough is enough. Time is precious and I have other things to do with my life." Does anybody know of just one doctrinal debate she's had? There is no record of any debate that anybody we know has come across.
  • If her story is true, she would be about 75-80 years old now, yet has untiring energy to trash Catholicism, knows all about hip hop culture, and has seen the Vagina Monologues.
  • In fact, there is nothing that we've seen to prove she actually exists. She could actually be a 300 pound man with a five day old beard, sitting in his parent's basement in his underwear making all this stuff up, for all we know... We're not saying "she" doesn't exist. We just don't know. If anyone has ever met her, or can prove she not a cyber avatar, please feel free to contact us with proof.
Mary Ann Collins' story is posted on a site called www.seekgod.ca which is a radical anti-Catholic site with sensationalist claims about all kinds of denominations. It is a site perfectly consistent with what one would expect from a person who thinks it's OK to make something up to "serve God". The contact page says "I" and she calls herself "Vicky". Amazingly, "Vicky's" writing style is incredibly similar to "Mary Ann's". From the FAQ page, apparently "Vicky" does the writing and her husband simply provides a computer for her, but it is their "family" web site. Hey "Vicky", feel free to contact us and tell us about your "friend" Mary Ann.

Anyway, we usually don't do rebuttals or investigations of anti-Catholic web sites, but this one is just a bit too weird not to be examined and questioned.

Follow up:
We wrote the above article over 10 years ago in 2005, and as of Dec 2015, have received no email from anyone who has ever met her. A Google search for "Mary Ann Collins" brings this page up in the top 10. "Mary Ann" is online, has an active web site, must know we're publicly questioning "her" existence. Yet "she" has not contacted us to say, "hey, I exist". We would pull all questioning of "her" existence in a heartbeat, as soon as "she" proves it. However, we received an email from a reader that said: see Mary Ann Collins, is she a former nun? Does she even exist? for the rest of the article.

Bottom line: Mary Ann Collins is a conjured fake invented by hate cults to bash Catholicism. If anything, it shows the spiritual bankruptcy of anti-Catholic bigots.
 

epostle1

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For the last time; if any one wants to honor Jesus, then honor Jesus. The real Mary is doing that so why do anything else?
Because she knows how to honor Jesus better than anyone else, and she is a perfect model for doing that. Remember, she is His mother. Who knows YOU better than your own mother? Anyone who does the will of God is His mother, and Jesus said that because she did the will of God.

I am done with the subject, brother, because there is no more to say on the matter. I preach Jesus Christ and Him crucified, but you cannot say the same.
1 Cor. 1:23- Paul preaches a Christ crucified, not just risen. Catholic spirituality focuses on the sacrifice of Christ which is the only means to the resurrection. This is why Catholic churches have crucifixes with the corpus of Jesus affixed to them. Many Protestant churches no longer display the corpus of Jesus (only an empty cross). Thus, they only preach a Christ risen, not crucified.

1 Cor. 2:2 - Paul preaches Jesus Christ and Him crucified. While the cross was the scandal of scandals, and is viewed by the non-Christian eye as defeat, Catholic spirituality has always exalted the paradox of the cross as the true tree of life and our means to salvation.
1 Corinthians 2:2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
And that is why nobody has been honoring Mary as a part of christian worship in any of the early churches in the New Testament.
But you have no resemblance whatsoever with the early churches of the NT. You think you do, but you cannot provide any evidence because you dismiss the Early Church Fathers, who had a clear view of faith and practice.. Development of Mariology began before the New Testament was written, but Mary kept a low profile in scripture because that is what she wanted.
As St. Paul parallels Christ with Adam, St. Justin parallels Mary with Eve (according to Quasten he is the first Christian writer to do so):

[Christ] became man by the Virgin, in order that the disobedience which proceeded from the serpent might receive its destruction in the same manner in which it derived its origin. For Eve, who was a virgin and undefiled, having conceived the word of the serpent, brought forth disobedience and death. But the Virgin Mary received faith and joy, when the angel Gabriel announced the good tidings to her that the Spirit of the Lord would come upon her, and the power of the Highest would overshadow her: wherefore also the Holy Thing begotten of her is the Son of God; and she replied, ‘Be it unto me according to thy word.’
Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho, 100 (A.D. 155).
He wrote this just 65 years after John wrote Revelation. But you have nothing to do with the church of 155 AD.
 

epostle1

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Those are the works of catholicism necessary for salvation as per the Catholic Catechism, and not just by being a member of the Catholic Church.[/quote] No, they are NOT "works of Catholicism". "works salvation" is called Pelagianism, condemned as a heresy 1000 years before the first Protestant was born. Christians of all stripes don't do good works for brownie points, they do them because they love God.
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
For the Catholic Catechism to teach that faith in Jesus Christ for salvation was not enough, puts the obtaining of that salvation on every believer in Catholicism; in essence .. Jesus Christ is not really the Saviour when it is on the believer to save themselves by joining the Catholic Church and doing the sacraments within AND persevering in love and so salvation is an ongoing process where no one can say that Jesus Christ has really saved them.
This is a gross misrepresentation.
Therefore, the works of catholicism is an example of laboring in unbelief when believers are saved for believing in the Lord Jesus Christ and tat God raised Him from the dead. That is why we can tell people the Good News now that all who believe in Jesus Christ are saved as promised.
John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
We are to lift up Jesus Christ for all sinners to go to; not the church. Jesus is able to save those who believe in Him because He is God.
You are welcome, brother.
Scripture places the glory of the title of the Light & Creator specifically on the Son.
John 1:1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. 6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. 8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. 9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
First you attack Catholicism with gross misrepresentations, then you quote scripture.

Those "Bible Christian" hate sites will rot your mind
 
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mjrhealth

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WRONG, my linguistically-challenged friend.
"Holy" simply means "set apart" for God.

If you're not living a holy life - you had batter start . . .
Yelling gets you know where. As for "set apart" how woul;d you know, you are stuch to your church and its doctrines", seperated from God by your doctrines and religion, what is it He says

Mar 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

ἅγιος
hagios
hag'-ee-os
From ἅγος hagos (an awful thing) compare G53, [H2282]; sacred (physically pure, morally blameless or religious, ceremonially consecrated): - (most) holy (one, thing), saint.
 

mjrhealth

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1 Cor. 1:23- Paul preaches a Christ crucified, not just risen. Catholic spirituality focuses on the sacrifice of Christ which is the only means to the resurrection. This is why Catholic churches have crucifixes with the corpus of Jesus affixed to them. Many Protestant churches no longer display the corpus of Jesus (only an empty cross). Thus, they only preach a Christ risen, not crucified.

That is because He is risen, Jesus has not being on that cross for 2500 years, but you stil lkeep him there. How can one pray to a still dead Jesus.

Whats is say,


Heb_12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Christ is preaparing His bride, teh guest are getting ready, our Lord is returning, but to you, He is stll dead on teh cross.

For one to find that narrow path thats needs to life, one must do as Jesus did and lay ones life down at teh cross ,so tah tone can pass from death to life. No longer is tey crucified Jesus an issue because now you have teh Risen Lord, who died and rose again. Teh cross is behind those who are His, only Christ is there focus, for salvation is in Him alone,
 

epostle1

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Yelling gets you know where. As for "set apart" how woul;d you know, you are stuch to your church and its doctrines", seperated from God by your doctrines and religion, what is it He says

Mar 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

ἅγιος
hagios
hag'-ee-os
From ἅγος hagos (an awful thing) compare G53, [H2282]; sacred (physically pure, morally blameless or religious, ceremonially consecrated): - (most) holy (one, thing), saint.
For the 100th time, Mark 7:13 says "YOUR traditions", the ones they made up, not the traditions Jesus kept all His life and not the traditions Paul tells us to keep.
 

epostle1

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That is because He is risen, Jesus has not being on that cross for 2500 years, but you stil lkeep him there. How can one pray to a still dead Jesus.

Whats is say,

Heb_12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Christ is preaparing His bride, teh guest are getting ready, our Lord is returning, but to you, He is stll dead on teh cross.
That is not what I said. 1 Cor. 1:23 and 1 Cor. 2:2 is what I said. Preaching Christ crucified as Paul says is not keeping Him on the cross.

For one to find that narrow path thats needs to life, one must do as Jesus did and lay ones life down at teh cross ,so tah tone can pass from death to life. No longer is tey crucified Jesus an issue because now you have teh Risen Lord, who died and rose again. Teh cross is behind those who are His, only Christ is there focus, for salvation is in Him alone,
There are no short cuts to the Resurrection.
 

BreadOfLife

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No. Jesus did not refer to her as being the one that hear the Word of God and keep it, but "they" which included the woman that Jesus was deferring that woman from blessing Mary Whose womb and paps were blessed.
Wrong.

Jesus is telling the woman that it is not his mother's breasts and womb that are blessed - but SHE is because she did God's will. Otherwise - His words are meaningless and Mary's breasts and womb would be the ONLY thing blessed.
722The Holy Spirit prepared Mary by his grace. It was fitting that the mother of him in whom “the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily” 102

should herself be “full of grace.” She was, by sheer grace,conceived without sin as the most humble of creatures, the most capable of welcoming the inexpressible gift of the Almighty." ~ Catholic Catechism Page 191

If Mary was without sin, then she would not have sung her need for God as her Saviour.
HUH??
It is ONLY because God conceived her without sin that she was without sin. He SAVED her from sin.

God is her Savior just like he is mine and every other Christian.
That is not explained as such in the catechism. Indeed, to be conceived in the womb without sin does not testify to her being saved before she was literally born.

This is why you should suspect the Catechism as another gospel because it does not "just" raise Jesus up, but Mary as well. Mary is not the steeping stone to God and neither is the RCC. God the Father provided only one way to come to Him and that is through the Son ( John 14:6 ); you cannot climb up any other way John 10:1 ). Jesus is the door. John 10:7-9

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

John 10:1Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber......7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
HOGWASH.

Who is placing Mary as a stepping stone to God?? While we're at it - Jesus is not a stepping stone to God either - he IS God.
Mary is an intercessor - as ALL members of the Body of Christ are intercessors.

If YOU don't think YOU'RE an intercessor - then don't ever pray for anybody again.
In light of the topic which is the debate, John 10:8 above says putting Mary before Jesus as a means to Jesus is a work of a thief. Those who love the Bridegroom knows to go to Jesus, and no one else in coming to God the Father by in worship, fellowship, and prayer.

Psalm 27:7 Hear, O Lord, when I cry with my voice: have mercy also upon me, and answer me.8 When thou saidst, Seek ye my face; my heart said unto thee, Thy face, Lord, will I seek.9 Hide not thy face far from me; put not thy servant away in anger: thou hast been my help; leave me not, neither forsake me, O God of my salvation.
And here, you simply expose yourself as just another dishonest anti-Catholic.

NOWHERE does the Church ever teach that we are to put Mary before Christ.
Why don't you try being honest, for a change, hmmmm?

I did not say that the Catholic Church taught that. I did apply the scripture of John 5:23 that cites that whenever any believer honors any one else in worship other than the Son, then they are no longer honoring God the Father in that moment in worship. That is the error of the RCC when they honor somebody else besides Jesus in worship. That is not pleasing to God at all nor doing the will of the Father in worship.
You are being dishonest again.

We don’t honor Mary or ANYBODY else in worship.
We worship God alone.
Honoring & glorifying God in worship means only honoring and glorifying the Son in worship.

1 Corinthians 1:29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

1 Corinthians 3:21 Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are your's; 22 Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are your's; 23 And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's.

Don't side step these verses as if because Mary is a woman, they do not apply to her. No flesh shall glory in His Presence. We are not to glory in any one except in the Lord.
You are completely incapable of being honest.
NONE of those verses apply because we don’t worship Mary and the saints.

Your total devotion to falsehood is despicable.
Judges 5:24Blessed above women shall Jael the wife of Heber the Kenite be, blessed shall she be above women in the tent.

Is Jael blessed ABOVE women or not? Entirely different than the blessing of Mary among women, but then this blessing is written in Hebrew of the Old Testament whereas the Greek of the New Testament would have it mean differently towards Mary, but how does "above" and "among" places this blessing when Jael is above women whereas Mary was blessed among women?

And to resolve the conflict, they are both irrelevant in relation to the glory of God in Christ Jesus in worship. Period.

John 13:31 Therefore, when he was gone out, Jesus said, Now is the Son of man glorified, and God is glorified in him.32 If God be glorified in him, God shall also glorify him in himself, and shall straightway glorify him.

In worship of God, only Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is to be worshipped. That is plainly taught in the letters to the churches in the New Testament and the practice of devotions to Mary is taught NOWHERE in the New Testament.
Jael is never spoken of as being “Kecharitomene”.

Get it through your head: NOBODY in ALL of Scripture is called “Kecharitomene” except for Mary, the mother of Jesus.
Kecharitomene means to be “completely, perfectly, enduringly endowed with grace.”

As high a God-given honor as this is – it still pales in comparison to Jesus, who is never called “Kecharitomene” because he IS grace itself.

As for devotion to Mary being wrong because it is not spoken of in Scripture - neither is my devotion to my Wife.
Is that "wrong"??

What complete Scriptural ignorance . . .
 

BreadOfLife

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Why is Jesus's warning should not alarm you?

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

If you keep going to Mary whom you claim to know because she was down here, and yet deny the Son Whom came down here as the One to know by reading His words.....then you will never know the Son of God personally that way.

How much of Mary's words have been written for you to know here? How is it that there are way more words of Jesus's than hers that you claim to know her but not the Son?

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. 7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

You cannot live this reconciled relationship with God through Mary. You can only live this reconciled relationship with God through Jesus Christ, the Son of God... also known as the Bridegroom as you are the bride for believing in the Lord Jesus Christ and that God raised Him from the dead.

Romans 8:32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

Mary has no power in Heaven because ALL power has been given to Jesus in answering prayers for He is God at that throne of grace; not Mary.

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. 19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Stop learning about Mary through the Catechism because that is another gospel. The Catechism is not of the truth when there can be no lie of the truth.

You can know the Son by reading of His words in getting to know Him.

Matthew 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

Rest in Jesus Christ that you are saved and depart from the works of catholicism that provides no rest from that laboring in unbelief.

837 "“Fully incorporated into the society of the Church are those who, possessing the Spirit of Christ, accept all the means of salvation given to the Church together with her entire organization, and who—by the bonds constituted by the profession of faith, the sacraments, ecclesiastical government, and communion—are joined in the visible structure of the Church of Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops. Even though incorporated into the Church, one who does not however persevere in charity is not saved." ~ Catholic Catechism Pg 222

Talk about a rat race in vanity. In according to the Catholic Catechism, how can any Catholic testify that Jesus Christ IS their Saviour if they are not saved "yet"? The New Testament preaches the Good News of Jesus Christ to men now; The Catechism preaches a possible Good News to men which makes christianity the same as any other religion.. a possibility but no guarantee because it depends on you and your work in catholicism and that is not the Good News of Jesus Christ at all.

1 Corinthians 6:1 We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain. 2 (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)

Romans 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; 9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

You are saved now, brother for believing in the Lord Jesus Christ and that God raised Him from the dead. You were saved the moment you had believed that. So rest in Him by ceasing from the works of catholicism, and believed that you have been saved when you first had believed in Him.

Romans 8:4 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father 16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Having the Holy Spirit in you means He is bearing witness that you are saved so you as led by the Holy Spirit can tell others that Jesus Christ really is your Saviour.
And, in your total ignorance - you keep speaking of Jesus and of God - as if Jesus wasn't God.
Jesus IS God and Mary is His Mother.

As for your moronic assertion that she has "no power" in heaven - why would YOU want to go there?? What is your hope??
ALL who go to heaven will have an extension of the power of God (1 John 3:2).

Don't just quote the Bible.
Try studying it to find out what it actually means . . .