Can we know the day and hour of Jesus' return?

[David Lamb]

What you are missing is that the fig tree has two harvests. There are two raptures.

The Church is raptured before the great tribulation as we can escape all these things that will come to pass and stand before the Son of man.

Luke 21
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

The great tribulation is the time of Jacobs trouble. There remains 3.5 years in the 70th week of Daniel. It is the 12 tribes across the earth that are raptured at the 6th seal. Those that get victory over the beast are singing the song of Moses. They are Jews.

Revelation 15
2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

In that case, please show me where in the Bible we are told that all Christians will be raptured (by which I assume you mean taken out of the world) before the tribulation. Particularly as Revelation speaks of that great company of the redeemed as those who have come out of the great tribulation. To come out of it they must have been in it to start with. This is supported too by the one verse that mentions "Jacob's trouble":

(Jer 30:7 NKJV) Alas! For that day is great, So that none is like it; And it is the time of Jacob's trouble, But he shall be saved out of it.

To be saved out of it, he must have been in it. It would not be a day of trouble for him if he was removed before the trouble or tribulation came.

As far as Daniel's 70th week is concerned, where are we told that there remain 3.5 years of that week? The verses in Daniel 9 that talk about the weeks make no mention of that:

(Dan 9:24-27 NKJV) "Seventy weeks are determined For your people and for your holy city, To finish the transgression, To make an end of sins, To make reconciliation for iniquity, To bring in everlasting righteousness, To seal up vision and prophecy, And to anoint the Most Holy. "Know therefore and understand, That from the going forth of the command To restore and build Jerusalem Until Messiah the Prince, There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; The street shall be built again, and the wall, Even in troublesome times. "And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; And the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it shall be with a flood, And till the end of the war desolations are determined. Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate."

 

[CrowCross]

I believe the Word of God and there is absolutely NOT one single scripture that says that there is a 7 year tribulation. There is a great tribulation that begins in the middle of the week. FACT.

There only remains 3.5 years of the seven years in the 70th week of Daniel. FACT.

How does Daniel 9 get to your conclusion?
Feel free to use other scripture.

 

[WPM]

What you are missing is that the fig tree has two harvests. There are two raptures.

The Church is raptured before the great tribulation as we can escape all these things that will come to pass and stand before the Son of man.

Luke 21
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

The great tribulation is the time of Jacobs trouble. There remains 3.5 years in the 70th week of Daniel. It is the 12 tribes across the earth that are raptured at the 6th seal. Those that get victory over the beast are singing the song of Moses. They are Jews.

Revelation 15
2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

The extra-biblical statements get more and more and the avoided questions get larger and larger.

1. Where is your Pretrib rapture in Revelation?
2. Is Revelation 19 your 3rd rapture?
3. Where is your tribulation period following Matthew 24:44 (or any other rapture passage)?
4. Show us one Scripture that teaches that "the feasts of God are a picture of the end times"?
5. Show me New Testament Scripture that teaches that “there are two harvests? The grain harvest and the fruit harvest”?
6. Where is "the grain harvest" mentioned in the New Testament?
7. Where is "the fruit harvest " mentioned in the New Testament?
8. Where is "the barley harvest" that you have previously invented and foisted on Scripture mentioned in the New Testament?
9. Where is "the wheat harvest" that you have previously invented and foisted on Scripture mentioned in the New Testament?
10. Where is all this jargon about "on the Feast of Trumpets, the fall harvest feast" in the New Testament text or in any rapture passage?
11. Where in the New Testament does it say “there are two raptures – grain and fruit”?
12. Show us any Scripture that teaches there are "two" future "raptures"?
13. Where in the Bible does it teach that "the fig tree having two harvests are referring to two raptures”?
14. Where in the Scriptures does it teach that “the two folds of sheep are referring to two raptures”?
15. Where does it say anywhere in Scripture that “Noah is a picture of the Pretrib rapture” and “Lot is a picture of the Jewish harvest”?
16. Show us any Scripture that teaches "the Church is removed before the great tribulation, which is the time of testing"?
17. Show us any Scripture that teaches there is a "one-year wrath of God"?

Take them one at a time - if you can! Start with Number 1.

 

[PinSeeker]

In that case, please show me where in the Bible we are told that all Christians will be raptured (by which I assume you mean taken out of the world) before the tribulation.

You and I both know, David, that @The Light will point out what Paul says in 1 Thessalonians 4 (and maybe a thing or two other than that, but primarily that). What's always been interesting to me is, Paul says Jesus will return there ~ "with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God," of course ~ but... well, two things:

• His return is precisely the opposite of any sort of secret, as rapturers would have it; it will be loudly proclaimed, with great fanfare, and somehow seen by all...
• He returns, but there's nothing there beyond that, specifically that He then goes anywhere, much less leaves again...

But oh! Harpazo! Harpazo! <chuckles> Jesus's triumphant return will certainly be a rapturous event. He will take back for good what is His, even forcefully so. But the only ones who will leave... depart... are Satan and his minions, and, after the final Judgment, the unrepentant, the wicked, the ones on Jesus's left in the final Judgment, who will... yeah, depart, into eternal punishment, which is the second death.

But you know all this. <smile> Thank you for your posts and your kind, graceful manner. Grace and peace to you.

 

[CrowCross]

You and I both know, David, that @The Light will point out what Paul says in 1 Thessalonians 4 (and maybe a thing or two other than that, but primarily that). What's always been interesting to me is, Paul says Jesus will return there ~ "with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God," of course ~ but... well, two things:

• His return is precisely the opposite of any sort of secret, as rapturers would have it; it will be loudly proclaimed, with great fanfare, and somehow seen by all...
• He returns, but there's nothing there beyond that, specifically that He then goes anywhere, much less leaves again...

But oh! Harpazo! Harpazo! <chuckles> Jesus's triumphant return will certainly be a rapturous event. He will take back for good what is His, even forcefully so. But the only ones who will leave... depart... are Satan and his minions, and, after the final Judgment, the unrepentant, the wicked, the ones on Jesus's left in the final Judgment, who will... yeah, depart, into eternal punishment, which is the second death.

But you know this. <smile> Thank you for your posts and your kind manner. Grace and peace to you.

1“Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe in Me as well. 2In My Father’s house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? 3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and welcome you into My presence, so that you also may be where I am. 4You know the way to the place where I am going.”

 

[The Light]

How does Daniel 9 get to your conclusion?

I conclude that there are 3.5 years remaining in the 70th week of Daniel.

That is calculated as follows. From the decree to rebuild Jerusalem to Messiah the prince is 62 +7 weeks which is 69 weeks of 7 years. That leaves one week of 7 years which is the 70th week of Daniel

Daniel 9
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

Messiah is cut off 3.5 years later as He ministers for 3.5 years. That leaves 3.5 years remaining in the 70th week of Daniel.

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

Feel free to use other scripture.

We can prove that there are 3.5 years remaining in the 70th week of Daniel with Daniel 12

Daniel 12
6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?

7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

Time, times and a half = 3.5 years.

 

[PinSeeker]

1“Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe in Me as well. 2In My Father’s house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? 3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and welcome you into My presence, so that you also may be where I am. 4You know the way to the place where I am going.”

Absolutely. He said He was coming back... I get that you think so, but there is absolutely nothing there about taking us anywhere when he returns. Yes, His Father's house... we will certainly dwell in the house of the Lord forever (Psalm 23).

God is spirit (John 4:24), CrowCross; surely you don't think He lives in a literal house with many rooms... Oh, wait... you do... Goodness gracious. No, we are in the house of the Lord ~ Israel, which is Christ Jesus Himself; we are in Christ ~ right now. <smile> And one great day we will be with Him in person... forever... our faith will be sight... here. <smile>

Yes, we know the way to the place where He is going. He is it. He is the way, which He says exactly that in the very next sentence He utters after the one you cite here... "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me." <smile>

Grace and peace to you.

 

[The Light]

In that case, please show me where in the Bible we are told that all Christians will be raptured (by which I assume you mean taken out of the world) before the tribulation.

Hi David,
Believers can escape ALL THESE THINGS and stand before the Son of Man.

Luke 21
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Those that repent are not cast into great tribulation.

Revelation 2
22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.

Revelation 3
10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Particularly as Revelation speaks of that great company of the redeemed as those who have come out of the great tribulation. To come out of it they must have been in it to start with. This is supported too by the one verse that mentions "Jacob's trouble":

The time of Jacobs trouble is the time of trouble for the people of Daniel. Those that come out of great tribulation and get victory over the beast are singing the song of Moses.....they are Jews.

Revelation 15
2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

The Church is raptured before the seals are opened. They are the kings and priests in heaven in Revelation 5. After the fullness of the Gentiles comes in part of Israel will have their eyes opened and realize that Jesus is the Messiah. This seems a mystery that is unseen by many.

Romans 11
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

It is those of the 12 tribes that are in the great tribulation and raptured at the 6th seal.

That is why you see a great multitude in Revelation 7. They are the two folds (Gentiles and Jews) that become one-fold in Revelation and are in heaven for the marriage of the Lamb.

Revelation 19
1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

Revelation 19
6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

(Jer 30:7 NKJV) Alas! For that day is great, So that none is like it; And it is the time of Jacob's trouble, But he shall be saved out of it.

To be saved out of it, he must have been in it. It would not be a day of trouble for him if he was removed before the trouble or tribulation came.

Jacob trouble is the Jews trouble. The Church is already in heaven before the seals are opened. See the kings and priest redeemed out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation in Revelation 5.

As far as Daniel's 70th week is concerned, where are we told that there remain 3.5 years of that week? The verses in Daniel 9 that talk about the weeks make no mention of that:

I conclude that there are 3.5 years remaining in the 70th week of Daniel.

That is calculated as follows. From the decree to rebuild Jerusalem to Messiah the prince is 62 +7 weeks which is 69 weeks of 7 years. That leaves one week of 7 years which is the 70th week of Daniel

Daniel 9
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

Messiah is cut off 3.5 years later as He ministers for 3.5 years. That leaves 3.5 years remaining in the 70th week of Daniel.

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

We can prove that there are 3.5 years remaining in the 70th week of Daniel with Daniel 12

Daniel 12
6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?

7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

Time, times and a half = 3.5 years.

 

[CrowCross]

I conclude that there are 3.5 years remaining in the 70th week of Daniel.

That is calculated as follows. From the decree to rebuild Jerusalem to Messiah the prince is 62 +7 weeks which is 69 weeks of 7 years. That leaves one week of 7 years which is the 70th week of Daniel

Daniel 9
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

Messiah is cut off 3.5 years later as He ministers for 3.5 years. That leaves 3.5 years remaining in the 70th week of Daniel.

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

You can't get 3 1/2 years out of what you wrote above....the math isn't there.

We can prove that there are 3.5 years remaining in the 70th week of Daniel with Daniel 12

Daniel 12
6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?

7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

Time, times and a half = 3.5 years.

11 And from the time that the regular burnt offering is taken away and the abomination that makes desolate is set up, there shall be 1,290 days.

After 3 1/2 years of the trib there will be 3 1/2 years left. Your point isn't making much sense. or you're not really explaining it right....which is OK as even Daniel was confused.

 

[CrowCross]

God is spirit (John 4:24), CrowCross; surely you don't think He lives in a literal house with many rooms... Oh, wait... you do... Goodness gracious.

Why not? What do you think heaven is like? Will you be floating on a cloud playing a harp all day? Is that what you believe??? Oh, wait...you do believe that.

Jesus said He's coming back and will take us back with Him.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Then you can believe that if you like.
I'm sticking with a 7 year trib and a pretrib rapture.

Of course, because you have been brainwashed by the PreTrib false prophets like millions of Christians.

 

[TribulationSigns]

You can't get 3 1/2 years out of what you wrote above....the math isn't there.

11 And from the time that the regular burnt offering is taken away and the abomination that makes desolate is set up, there shall be 1,290 days.

After 3 1/2 years of the trib there will be 3 1/2 years left. Your point isn't making much sense. or you're not really explaining it right....which is OK as even Daniel was confused.

The Lord never said anything about “3½ literal years” here. That interpretation is not stated in the text—it is imposed upon the text to make it conform to a man-made doctrinal system.

The numbers in Revelation are not given so that we can turn them into a literal calendar, count off 1,260 days, and force them into a prophetic timetable. They are symbolic numbers carrying theological meaning, not mathematical clues for constructing a prophetic calendar.

The problem is not with the biblical text; the problem is with forcing Scripture to say what a particular system has already decided it must say. That is eisegesis, not sound biblical interpretation. We should allow Scripture to interpret Scripture rather than bending Revelation to fit a preconceived prophetic chart.

Do better.

 

[PinSeeker]

Why not?

Think of all those in Christ who have died up until now, CrowCross. So how big is this literal house that God lives in? Who keeps is clean? Does someone have to go to some big grocery store in the sky and buy everyone food? These are all... rhetorical questions, by the way... in case you didn't know... <chuckles>

What do you think heaven is like?

Better than we can imagine, certainly... Let me expound on this:

Now, if you're talking about the intermediate state... the time between when we die physically (if we die before He returns), and when He does return (and, if we have died previously, us with Him) and we are reunited with our physical, then-fully-redeemed body (the second resurrection)... then all we can know, really, is that we are with Him in paradise, as He told the thief crucified on His right in His own crucifixion (Luke 23:43).

If you're talking about in eternity, in the New Heaven and New Earth, after the above, then I think things will look much like... literally speaking... what they look like right now. There will be a life to be lived, and work to do... all the things... The difference is that all of creation will be redeemed... everything made new, as God says in Revelation 21:5 ~ “Behold, I am making all things new.” And no more sin, or death, or sorrow or sighing... We will be completely conformed to the image of our Lord Jesus, and all our works will be praise, which is also kind of unfathomable, but in a different way.

Will you be floating on a cloud playing a harp all day? Is that what you believe???

No, I don't think so... <chuckles>

Oh, wait...you do believe that.

Jesus said He's coming back and will take us back with Him.

No He didnnnnnnn't.... <chuckles> Just the first part. <smile>

Grace and peace to you.

 

[claninja]

Can we know the day and hour of Jesus' return?

The bible says...Matt 24:36
“But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only.

I guess that settles it. Right? For many it does.

BUT

We know the tribulation will be for 7 years...or...2,520 days using a 360 day lunar cycle year or 2,555 days using our 365 day calendar.

We also know the tribulation starts when the anti-Christ incorporates the "peace contract"....So why can't we add 2,520 days or 2,555 days from the moment the peace contract is signed? At that point it's pretty much a 50/50 guess as we don't know what number to use.
But, the bible says the peace contract will be broken after 3 1/2 years. That is 1,277 days or 1,260 days after the contract is signed.
Once the antiChrist declares himself to be God on day 1,277 or day 1,260.....all we have to do is add either 1,277 or 1,260 days to which number turned out to be correct.....and show Matt 24:36 has some problems as the day can be predicted.

BUT. Matt 24:36 can't be predicted...

Knowing Jesus return is imminent....I would suggest of that date no one knows when Jesus will return. This would be the date of the pre-tribulation rapture.

One way we can know the return of Jesus...(the first return)...is pre-tribulation is the mention of what the world will look like when Jesus returns. We know this return isn't speaking about the end of the tribulation because after going through the 7 year tribulation the world will not be rainbows, puppy dogs, butterflies and daisies. People will not be eating and drinking, marrying and being given in marriage, buying and selling, planting and building.
Jesus says the world will look like the days of Noah and Lot when He returns. Those day fit the pre-tribulation description rather than an end of the tribulation world view and economy.

It's amazing just how many people fight against the theology of the pre-tribulation rapture of the church.

One thing about the pre-tribulation rapture is the signs say it's soon....sooner than you think.

I like to think of it this way - In general, we know that it takes around 9 months for a baby to grow in the womb and then be born. While we don’t know the exact day nor hour of the birth until it happens, we do know the general time frame, and we can know when the birth is near (birth pangs).

While Christ does state no one knows the day nor hour, he also tells his disciples “when you see all these things, KNOW it is near, right at the door”, and “this generation will not pass away until all these things happen”.

Notice what Christ says - when you see all these things “you know” it is near. It’s NOT might know, NOR potentially know, NOR possibly know. it’s “you know”.

My point is that not knowing the day nor hour is NOT the same as knowing the general time frame/knowing it is near. One can know it is near, while not knowing the exact day nor hour.

 

[CrowCross]

Of course, because you have been brainwashed by the PreTrib false prophets like millions of Christians.

That seems to be a nasty thing to say about another christian.

 

[CrowCross]

I like to think of it this way - In general, we know that it takes around 9 months for a baby to grow in the womb and then be born. While we don’t know the exact day nor hour of the birth until it happens, we do know the general time frame, and we can know when the birth is near (birth pangs).

While Christ does state no one knows the day nor hour, he also tells his disciples “when you see all these things, KNOW it is near, right at the door”, and “this generation will not pass away until all these things happen”.

Notice what Christ says - when you see all these things “you know” it is near. It’s NOT might know, NOR potentially know, NOR possibly know. it’s “you know”.

My point is that not knowing the day nor hour is NOT the same as knowing the general time frame/knowing it is near. One can know it is near, while not knowing the exact day nor hour.

Yes, we know the pre-tribulation rapture of the bride of Christ is near. Of that day and hour we don't know.

On the other hand once the resurrection/rapture happens...and then the treaty is in effect...we can count the days till Jesus physical coming to earth as told about in Rev 19.

 

[CrowCross]

The Lord never said anything about “3½ literal years” here. That interpretation is not stated in the text—it is imposed upon the text to make it conform to a man-made doctrinal system.

The numbers in Revelation are not given so that we can turn them into a literal calendar, count off 1,260 days, and force them into a prophetic timetable. They are symbolic numbers carrying theological meaning, not mathematical clues for constructing a prophetic calendar.

The problem is not with the biblical text; the problem is with forcing Scripture to say what a particular system has already decided it must say. That is eisegesis, not sound biblical interpretation. We should allow Scripture to interpret Scripture rather than bending Revelation to fit a preconceived prophetic chart.

Do better.

Tell that to the Essenes Jews.

 

[Davidpt]

Can we know the day and hour of Jesus' return?

The bible says...Matt 24:36
“But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only.

I guess that settles it. Right? For many it does.

BUT

We know the tribulation will be for 7 years...or...2,520 days using a 360 day lunar cycle year or 2,555 days using our 365 day calendar.

We also know the tribulation starts when the anti-Christ incorporates the "peace contract"....So why can't we add 2,520 days or 2,555 days from the moment the peace contract is signed? At that point it's pretty much a 50/50 guess as we don't know what number to use.
But, the bible says the peace contract will be broken after 3 1/2 years. That is 1,277 days or 1,260 days after the contract is signed.
Once the antiChrist declares himself to be God on day 1,277 or day 1,260.....all we have to do is add either 1,277 or 1,260 days to which number turned out to be correct.....and show Matt 24:36 has some problems as the day can be predicted.

BUT. Matt 24:36 can't be predicted...

Knowing Jesus return is imminent....I would suggest of that date no one knows when Jesus will return. This would be the date of the pre-tribulation rapture.

One way we can know the return of Jesus...(the first return)...is pre-tribulation is the mention of what the world will look like when Jesus returns. We know this return isn't speaking about the end of the tribulation because after going through the 7 year tribulation the world will not be rainbows, puppy dogs, butterflies and daisies. People will not be eating and drinking, marrying and being given in marriage, buying and selling, planting and building.
Jesus says the world will look like the days of Noah and Lot when He returns. Those day fit the pre-tribulation description rather than an end of the tribulation world view and economy.

It's amazing just how many people fight against the theology of the pre-tribulation rapture of the church.

One thing about the pre-tribulation rapture is the signs say it's soon....sooner than you think.

IMO, it is absurd that there could be this time marker, a Pretrib rapture in this case, that then begins the countdown to the hour and day of His return.

If that scenario was possible, Jesus would not have said no man knows the day or the hour. It would make Him a liar and a false prophet, since it would mean man can also know what only the Father alone knows, the day and hour of His return. Jesus said that even the angels in heaven don't know that day and hour. We are to then believe man is more intelligent than angels in heaven, that man can figure out things that not even angels in heaven can figure out?

When you begin with a false premise then try and use that false premise to prove the point, no way is that going to lead to the truth of anything. The false premise you begin with is that a Pretrib rapture is Biblical. Then you use that event as a time marker in order for those allegedly left behind to then determine when Christ returns by simply counting down 3.5 years or whatever, from that of when this alleged Pretrib rapture initially took place..

 

[PinSeeker]

IMO, it is absurd that there could be this time marker, a Pretrib rapture in this case, that then begins the countdown to the hour and day of His return.

Well, to the hour and day of his second return. So yes, two absurdities. <chuckles> Absolutely.

Grace and peace to you, David.

 

[The Light]

You can't get 3 1/2 years out of what you wrote above....the math isn't there.

It's pretty simple. Jesus arrives 69 weeks after the decree to rebuild Jerusalem. That leaves one week which is the 70th week of Daniel. Each week is 7 years.

The 70th week begins and Jesus ministers 3.5 years and then is cut off. That leaves 3.5 years.

I confirmed this with Daniel 12 which says there is time, times and a half until all is complete

After 3 1/2 years of the trib there will be 3 1/2 years left.

After 3.5 years of the tribulation?

The final week begins when a covenant with many is made. Those first 3.5 years are not tribulation. And the Church WILL NOT be raptured before the final week begins.

The Church will be raptured before the great tribulation. The great tribulation begins in the middle of the week. 3.5 years is 1260 days.

When the AOD is setup and the sacrifice is taken away that starts the final 3.5 years of the 70th week of Daniel. This is why the woman, Israel, flees to a place of protection for 42 months.

Your point isn't making much sense. or you're not really explaining it right....which is OK as even Daniel was confused.

Or both.........LOL.