Can You Be Righteous

[Axehead]

Righteousness is simply "right acts".

The word "Acts" in that definition is inherent/intrinsic to the word Agapao. You can't agapao without the acts. (leave out extreme examples/deathbed conversions, etc...)

Gal 5:6 shows a view of one who is Righteous doing righteousness. As does the last parable in matt 25. Would you agree?

So then you think that "right acts" can only come from born-again believers? (I am asking).

Axehead

 

[Xian Pugilist]

That's a little predefined boxed in for my taste. Not accusing you... just observing.

Right acts are loving neighbor. Loving neighbor, agapao neighbor, requires acts, works of service, charity, just to give a few of the biblical words for it.

Without the act/demonstration, an emotion can not be agapao.

Your spiritual maturity will result in works, if it never does you don't know Him and you lied to yourself.
Theology isn't important but faith working through love. Gal 5;6.

So then you think that "right acts" can only come from born-again believers? (I am asking).

Axehead

 

[Episkopos]

So then you think that "right acts" can only come from born-again believers? (I am asking).

Axehead

"Right acts" is what the the scriptures teach us to do. Anyone can do them. Those who practice these acts are called "the righteous." But even the righteous cannot ALWAYS do right acts. They will sin at times in thought and deed. In order to walk without sin and have God's level of a perfect righteousness we need to abide in Christ.

Righteousness is not something exclusive to Christianity. But holiness (or God's perfect righteousness)...IS!

 

[Axehead]

"Right acts" is what the the scriptures teach us to do. Anyone can do them. Those who practice these acts are called "the righteous." But even the righteous cannot ALWAYS do right acts. They will sin at times in thought and deed. In order to walk without sin and have God's level of a perfect righteousness we need to abide in Christ.

Righteousness is not something exclusive to Christianity. But holiness (or God's perfect righteousness)...IS!

Holiness is separation and many religions practice that, but the holiness of Christ is different.

Christ's holiness is exclusive to Christianity, and so is righteousness in the heart, because the "New Heart" only comes through Jesus Christ. God is looking for righteousness in the heart (first), not right acts. The right acts He is looking for are the ones that come from His righteousness in our heart, (the new man

It is this NEW MAN that is created in righteousness and TRUE holiness.
Eph 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

No man will ever come to the Father apart from Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ IS the focal point of the Universe.

Part of post #156 (again).

Righteousness must be found in the heart of man. Jesus said, " For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man. (Matt 15:19-20)

Again the Lord emphasizes the heart when He said, "Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God." (Matt 5:8)

The heart is the foundation for all desire. From it flow the issues of life.

"Keep thy heart with all diligence; for out of it are the issues of life." (Pro 4:23)

1Ti 6:11 But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness...

Paul knows that if we follow after righteousness and godliness, fruit is a given. Fruit will come, will be manifested. The emphasis is not on "right acts" or "fruit", the emphasis is on Righteousness and Godliness. Without Christ's righteousness and godliness (holiness), the fruit is counterfeit and rotten, though it looks good.


1Co 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
1Co 13:3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

1Pet 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls (heart) in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

Axehead

Anyone who has been given a new heart, remembers how wonderfully innocent and clean the Spirit made them when they were given their New Heart. The fact that not many talk about it gives me pause...

 

[Xian Pugilist]

Holiness is separation and many religions practice that, but the holiness of Christ is different.

Agreed.

Christ's holiness is exclusive to Christianity, and so is righteousness in the heart, because the "New Heart" only comes through Jesus Christ. God is looking for righteousness in the heart (first), not right acts. The right acts He is looking for are the ones that come from His righteousness in our heart, (the new man)

Ok, but most of you guys don't believe in a NEW MAN except as some tag line, or "position" which makes it nearly a title, a perception of God's view not a changed person. A person proclaiming Christ, and wanting to be a nicer person is not a changed person, that is a changing person. I see scripture show a very fundamentally changed person with concrete results. I'm guessing you would deny them based on what I have read so far from you. That's not a slap, just an observation.

It is this NEW MAN that is created in righteousness and TRUE holiness.

If GOD makes a new man, why would that new man continue to sin? Why can't God get it right? To say He can't get it right takes away omnipotence. To say HE WON'T get it right deliberately makes Him dishonest. Neither are God.

Eph 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

No man will ever come to the Father apart from Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ IS the focal point of the Universe.

That has nothing to do with a man being made a changed being, a perfect man, on earth by God/Christ. In fact scripture proves that to be the case. YOu cut the change shorter than I do, and I think shorter than Episkopos as well. Although I'm pretty sure E. and I don't agree either.

Part of post #156 (again).

Righteousness must be found in the heart of man. Jesus said, " For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man. (Matt 15:19-20)

Again the Lord emphasizes the heart when He said, "Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God." (Matt 5:8)

The heart is the foundation for all desire. From it flow the issues of life.

Yes....?

"Keep thy heart with all diligence; for out of it are the issues of life." (Pro 4:23)

1Ti 6:11 But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness...

Paul knows that if we follow after righteousness and godliness, fruit is a given. Fruit will come, will be manifested. The emphasis is not on "right acts" or "fruit", the emphasis is on Righteousness and Godliness. Without Christ's righteousness and godliness (holiness), the fruit is counterfeit and rotten, though it looks good.

Yes, Paul also shows some benefits from following, in fact A benefit that is the catalyst of change. The benefit is the catalyst, not the following/obedience. Following/Obedience doesn't change you, but during that time you are changed.....

1Co 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
1Co 13:3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

1Pet 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls (heart) in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

Axehead

So, I missed the final point here....

You are PERCEIVED Righteous at atonement. But that is different than made righteous.

This is milk/meat, perfect not perfect, mature not mature.... it's all the same concept. You have both in the Church. To deny that requires us to rewrite scripture. ONE is being changed, the other is CHANGED.

Righteous is a changed man.

Many claim to be changed based on scripture. But often times they read scripture describing the changed person, and claim it even though they are still being changed. If you try to correct them, they get defensive and freeze up etc... The conversation isn't nice because they are like a kid given a cake then having it taken away, they don't want to let it go, EVEN IF it was a false claim.

Here are some benchmarks of a changeD person....

Col 2:11 the sinful nature is removed.
So the person that makes you do what you don't wanna do and not do what you wanna do in Romans 7:14-25ish is not there anymore.
You are then indwelled by the Spirit, not before, romans 8:9. Many claim to be indwelled (thus giving themselves some claims of holiness they beat others up with unjustly), while they still have a sinful nature. They have to ignore 8:5-8:9 to do that. But, that's ok, they can then get the ICING of the cake, without having to do the baking. At least in their minds. The fact it's a false claim doesn't concern them usually, just what they can claim. That's why I wonder if they really believe there is a GOD that changes us at all. It becomes a semantics game, not a real life changing topic.

Once the Spirit indwells, your walk is controlled by the Spirit, (slave to whom you obey 6:16, and 8:5 you obey the mindset you have...)
When you walk by the Spirit, you don't give into temptations, gal 5:16....

You see where I'm going. I can do this off the top of my head all day. It won't matter. Those that make claims of a mature person in scripture, and aren't yet mature will just use this as a cause to attack me personally. Few can actually converse it with an open mind. BUT I'm making my beliefs transparently clear.

 

[Axehead]

Agreed.

Ok, but most of you guys don't believe in a NEW MAN except as some tag line, or "position" which makes it nearly a title, a perception of God's view not a changed person. A person proclaiming Christ, and wanting to be a nicer person is not a changed person, that is a changing person. I see scripture show a very fundamentally changed person with concrete results.

Hi XP,

This is part 1 -

That is true. A NEW MAN is a changed person from his core, form his inside, out. Truly a New Creature in Christ. Many have not seemed to have experienced this and the New Heart/Pure Heart that God gives through spiritual surgery via the Holy Spirit. Few mention any testimony of a pure heart and/or deliverance from the OLD MAN, so I can only surmise that it is theory to most people.

I'm guessing you would deny them based on what I have read so far from you. That's not a slap, just an observation.

I don't understand this statement. Deny who, what?

If GOD makes a new man, why would that new man continue to sin? Why can't God get it right? To say He can't get it right takes away omnipotence. To say HE WON'T get it right deliberately makes Him dishonest. Neither are God.

The NEW MAN is Christ in us, the Hope of Glory. Though our OLD MAN has been crucified and dealt a death blow from our identification with Christ's death, we still live in the flesh and the flesh has "patterns" and "imprints" of sin. Notice that God did not wipe away our memory, our mind. That is why we are commanded to renew it. We are commanded to think on things above and not below. We still have an adversary who will tempt us and living in the flesh we can still be drawn away by "lusts". So, we must overcome through Christ, the World, the Flesh and the Devil.

Paul understands this and that is why he makes a distinction between Christ and our flesh.

Rom 13:14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.

We can still make provision for the flesh and Paul recognizes this.

That has nothing to do with a man being made a changed being, a perfect man, on earth by God/Christ. In fact scripture proves that to be the case. You cut the change shorter than I do, and I think shorter than Episkopos as well. Although I'm pretty sure E. and I don't agree either.

I'm sorry, I don't understand this, either.

Yes, Paul also shows some benefits from following, in fact A benefit that is the catalyst of change. The benefit is the catalyst, not the following/obedience. Following/Obedience doesn't change you, but during that time you are changed.....

To be more concrete, the Life of Christ in us is the catalyst which will deliver us from every hindrance to loving Him with all our heart. This too, is theory to most and that is what I am trying to combat...the theory about His life and His delivering power for us, now, in this life.

You are PERCEIVED Righteous at atonement. But that is different than made righteous.

This is milk/meat, perfect not perfect, mature not mature.... it's all the same concept. You have both in the Church. To deny that requires us to rewrite scripture. ONE is being changed, the other is CHANGED.

Very true.

Righteous is a changed man.

Many claim to be changed based on scripture. But often times they read scripture describing the changed person, and claim it even though they are still being changed. If you try to correct them, they get defensive and freeze up etc... The conversation isn't nice because they are like a kid given a cake then having it taken away, they don't want to let it go, EVEN IF it was a false claim.

True. I would add, His objective life in our outward observations (reading, hearing) must become subjective (inward) in our experience.

Here are some benchmarks of a changed person....

Col 2:11 the sinful nature is removed.
So the person that makes you do what you don't wanna do and not do what you wanna do in Romans 7:14-25ish is not there anymore.

True, the putting off of the body of sin is that the 'old man is crucifed with him that the body of sin might be destroyed".

Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Being freed from sin is the reality that God wants us to walk in. We now, can CHOOSE NOT TO SIN. We are no longer SLAVES to SIN.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

If this were not true, it would be unfair of God to command us with the following:
Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

Paul reemphasizes for us:
Rom 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

You are then indwelled by the Spirit, not before, romans 8:9. Many claim to be indwelled (thus giving themselves some claims of holiness they beat others up with unjustly), while they still have a sinful nature.

And this "claim" can only be done with outward acts since they have never experienced the inward reality of the NEW MAN (Christ). What is missing is the Love of God from those who practice "outward circumcision". Many "believers" do practice outward circumcision and have no insight into the verse you mentioned (Col 2:11). Those who know and have experienced the "love of God being shed abroad in their heart" after they received the Lord Jesus (John 1:12), were filled with the Holy Spirit and experienced the circumcision made without hands (by the Holy Spirit), can detect a religious spirit (My sheep know My voice and another they will not follow, John 10). Religious spirits have no testimony of inward life or change and definitely don't have the Love of God.

I have to add the rest of my post later, since I already have quoted too many "quotes"

Your contribution blessed me. Thank you.

Axehead

 

[Xian Pugilist]

you>>>>I don't understand this statement. Deny who, what? <<<<<<<<<<<<

ME>>>>> the totality of the change in a person. But you agreed there.

YOU>>>>The NEW MAN is Christ in us, the Hope of Glory.<<<<<<<<
<ME>>> Nope, I'd have to disagree. The new man is what Christ in you changes you into. You can't remove the YOU part. It's not me who lives but HE who lives in me, it's still about me and my life/behavior. If my life hasn't changed yet, the claim of Christ in me is garbage. If I'm a new man, then my life has changed. People use this as some sorta title, denying the real changes. HIS SEED IN YOU, or His Son in you, keeps you from sinning in 1 john 3:9. Real changes.
And it does no good to claim you are changed if you aren't, so I'd think we'd posture less and be more real as a people... (not directed at you personally.)

YOU>>>> Though our OLD MAN has been crucified and dealt a death blow from our identification with Christ's death, we still live in the flesh and the flesh has "patterns" and "imprints" of sin.<<<<<<<<<<

ME>>>>> Col 2:11 and romans 8:9 and Romans 7:5 say you are wrong. You don't still live in the flesh if the old man is gone. THE OLD man crucified is the flesh, and it's removed by a circumcision which doesn't grow back. I can't deviate from scripture's words here to accept the premise you presented above. You mistake flesh for body it sounds like. Body in Greek is Soma, flesh is Sarx. Sarx is used in distinctively different ways in the Paulian letters.

YOU>>>>> Notice that God did not wipe away our memory, our mind.<<<

ME>>>> But he gave you a new mind IF you are mature. If not you are being changed to the new mind. If you have a new mind, the old mind is gone. ROm 8:9.

YOU>>> That is why we are commanded to renew it. <<<<

ME>>> That is why HE finishes it off and changes it. YOU work at renewing it, same as MOSES held the stick over the Red Sea. Who parted the sea/who changes the heart?

YOU>>>We are commanded to think on things above and not below. We still have an adversary who will tempt us and living in the flesh we can still be drawn away by "lusts". So, we must overcome through Christ, the World, the Flesh and the Devil. <<<<<

ME>>> yes, when you are saved, you start a journey. The journey is to be changed. I believe he changes you, YOU state you can't be fully changed. Scripture says you WILL be changed. This journey you start on has actions you do, such as struggles with obedience, fighting against sins, etc... while doing that, through trials and tribs, He's changing you. For some reason, you don't have faith He could finish the change. The flesh isn't there all your life, NOT if you are being matured in Christ. To assume it stays there has to literally redact several scriptures.

YOU>>>Paul understands this and that is why he makes a distinction between Christ and our flesh. <<<<
ME>>> THat's why he made the point he was no longer in the flesh. :| **bam**

YOU>>>Rom 13:14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof. <<<<

ME>>>> ROm 7:5, Rom 8:9, Rom 6. Rom 6 has you struggling against the flesh AS YOU GROW, romans 7 talks about what you struggle/ fight against, romans 8 shows what victory is, indwelled by the Spirit, NO LONGER in the flesh.

YOU>>>We can still make provision for the flesh and Paul recognizes this.<<<
ME not sure what you mean here.... But scripture says the flesh is gone. You are having to ignore all of that to hold on to this aspect of your theology.

I said>>>>>Yes, Paul also shows some benefits from following, in fact A benefit that is the catalyst of change. The benefit is the catalyst, not the following/obedience. Following/Obedience doesn't change you, but during that time you are changed...


YOU SAID>>>>>To be more concrete, the Life of Christ in us is the catalyst which will deliver us from every hindrance to loving Him with all our heart. This too, is theory to most and that is what I am trying to combat...the theory about His life and His delivering power for us, now, in this life.

I respond....<<<>>>>>If CHRIST IS IN YOU, you do not sin. 1 john 3:6. If you still have darkness in you, you are not in fellowship with God. 1 john 2:8 and 1:4-6ish. You can't just claim an altar call put Christ in you. That's not the case. You start with freedom from sin/atonement a journey. IF HE WAS IN YOU, you can not sin 1 john 3:9. Now, I know you don't believe those things, but that IS WHAT THE CONTEXT and VERSES SAY.
**************

You>>>True, the putting off of the body of sin is that the 'old man is crucifed with him that the body of sin might be destroyed"<<<

ME>>> Well then, if it's put off crucified, circumcised as col 2:11 says, how can it still be there to do damage to your walk? That's not making any sense to me. :|

YOU>>>>>Rom 6:6 see the MIGHT be destroyed?
ME>>>>IN Rom 6 you are on the path. Col 2:11 IS destroyed and removed and tossed away.

YOU >>> Rom 6:7
ME>>>> this is a reference to being freed from the law, not from sin. :|

YOU>>>If this were not true, it would be unfair of God to command us with the following:
Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

ME>>>> No it wouldn't be unfair. How can the KING OF KINGS be unfair? Hehehe WOW, God is expected to be fair..... why? Such expectations our mortal selves put on the most powerful.... Anyway, it's not unfair. MOSES HAD TO HOLD HIS HAND UP TO PART THE RED SEA. WHO PARTED THE RED SEA? It's the process of you doing the work, through which HE changes you to make you as perfect as His son was on earth. THAT IS WHAT SCRIPTURE SAYS.

Romans 6:22 paints the picture...
You are freed from sin/that's atonement. (This is the same sin you said we can't be freed from).
You fight obedience/become a slave to sin. (see 6:16 to connect obedience.)
You receive a benefit....
gal 5:16 walk by the spirit.
1 john 3:9 his seed in you
1 john 5:18 HIM in you.... <<<< that benefit in each of those verses is what is responsible for you not sinning.... no you. the benefit....
THE BENEFIT leads to sanctification.

It's a process. Salvation is the first step, not the end goal. I'd like to blow the Church up with it's sin centric focus / teaching and get back to the real message of a Gospel/Good News and how IT can change your lives, not how YOU should strive to change your life without HIS influence.

YOU>>>>Those who know and have experienced the "love of God being shed abroad in their heart" after they received the Lord Jesus (John 1:12), were filled with the Holy Spirit and experienced the circumcision made without hands (by the Holy Spirit), can detect a religious spirit (My sheep know My voice and another they will not follow, John 10). Religious spirits have no testimony of inward life or change and definitely don't have the Love of God.<<<<<<<<<<<

ME>>>> OK, I agree with all of that ( knowing we don't agree, I always like to point out when we do. But how can you conclude .............that if you are filled by the Holy Spirit, and thus NOT in the flesh any longer, that which makes you not do what you wanna do and to do what you don't wanna do is gone, and that which keeps you from giving into temptation has taken it's place.......... that you will still sin?

YOU>>>>I heartily agree with you. I keep running into the semantics game myself and am trying to figure out what people have experienced as REALITY in their lives. In the first century, the Apostles and Disciples were not running around telling people that they "have this really cool rulebook that is better than any rulebooks that have ever existed." They were not excited about any "new morals" given to them, or new "rules and regulations" or anything like that. They were full of joy because they had experienced Christ's death and resurrection for themselves and the result of being born from above by His Spirit <joined to the Lord's spirit> (1Co 6:17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.) <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

ME..... errrrr yeah, I agree with that too. we DO disagree on man growing to a point of not sinning again, don't we?

Have I got lost in my own conversation?

3 parts bright, 1 part dull? That's me.

 

[Axehead]

XP,

Thanks for responding, now I can post the rest. I will let you respond then respond to both of yours. You make some very good points in your first response that I actually agree with. Texting is limiting, but yes, Christ does not obliterate who we are. I will explain.

Here is the rest of my response to your first post.

They have to ignore 8:5-8:9 to do that. But, that's ok, they can then get the ICING of the cake, without having to do the baking. At least in their minds. The fact it's a false claim doesn't concern them usually, just what they can claim. That's why I wonder if they really believe there is a GOD that changes us at all. It becomes a semantics game, not a real life changing topic.

I have been talking a lot about scriptures that are ignored so that our "theology" will fit.
I heartily agree with you. I keep running into the semantics game myself and am trying to figure out what people have experienced as REALITY in their lives. In the first century, the Apostles and Disciples were not running around telling people that they "have this really cool rulebook that is better than any rulebooks that have ever existed." They were not excited about any "new morals" given to them, or new "rules and regulations" or anything like that. They were full of joy because they had experienced Christ's death and resurrection for themselves and the result of being born from above by His Spirit <joined to the Lord's spirit> (1Co 6:17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.)

Semantics and being better debaters because they had the best moral guidebook that ever existed did not give them the power to love their enemies while they were being tortured or to overcome the world, the flesh and the Devil. The Life of Christ in them gave them this power.

Once the Spirit indwells, your walk is controlled by the Spirit, (slave to whom you obey 6:16, and 8:5 you obey the mindset you have...)

True, but still in this world and in our mortal body, one must still choose to "put on Christ" (the New Man) and put off the old man. Col_3:9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;

Eph 4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;

When you walk by the Spirit, you don't give into temptations, gal 5:16....

You see where I'm going. I can do this off the top of my head all day. It won't matter. Those that make claims of a mature person in scripture, and aren't yet mature will just use this as a cause to attack me personally. Few can actually converse it with an open mind. BUT I'm making my beliefs transparently clear.

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

We have to start with His life. None of this makes sense without His life. The objective work of Christ is meant to become subjective.

If we are just pretending, we will eventually burn out as no one can walk this Christian walk in their own strength. No one can manufacture Divine life or copy Christ. It will be a bad copy. Paul counsels us to: Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates? (2Cor 13:5)

Burning out is actually good because it causes one to finally give up their religious activity and cry out to God for REALITY. The sooner one burns out trying to do what only Christ can do in us, the better.

Axehead

P.S. Actually, I will start on your first response, now.

you>>>>I don't understand this statement. Deny who, what? <<<<<<<<<<<<

ME>>>>> the totality of the change in a person. But you agreed there.

YOU>>>>The NEW MAN is Christ in us, the Hope of Glory.<<<<<<<<
<ME>>> Nope, I'd have to disagree. The new man is what Christ in you changes you into. You can't remove the YOU part. It's not me who lives but HE who lives in me, it's still about me and my life/behavior. If my life hasn't changed yet, the claim of Christ in me is garbage. If I'm a new man, then my life has changed. People use this as some sorta title, denying the real changes. HIS SEED IN YOU, or His Son in you, keeps you from sinning in 1 john 3:9. Real changes.
And it does no good to claim you are changed if you aren't, so I'd think we'd posture less and be more real as a people... (not directed at you personally.)

I actually do agree with that, XP. "The new man is what Christ in you changes you into". "

YOU>>>> Though our OLD MAN has been crucified and dealt a death blow from our identification with Christ's death, we still live in the flesh and the flesh has "patterns" and "imprints" of sin.<<<<<<<<<<

ME>>>>> Col 2:11 and romans 8:9 and Romans 7:5 say you are wrong. You don't still live in the flesh if the old man is gone. THE OLD man crucified is the flesh, and it's removed by a circumcision which doesn't grow back. I can't deviate from scripture's words here to accept the premise you presented above. You mistake flesh for body it sounds like. Body in Greek is Soma, flesh is Sarx. Sarx is used in distinctively different ways in the Paulian letters.

Yes, I was talking about Body (physical body) not "body of sin" as in "fleshly body" or "flesh"

2Co_4:11 For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh. <<<<<< Not "body of sin" but our physical body.

YOU>>>>> Notice that God did not wipe away our memory, our mind.<<<

ME>>>> But he gave you a new mind IF you are mature. If not you are being changed to the new mind. If you have a new mind, the old mind is gone. Rom 8:9.

True, we have the "mind of Christ" and as such, we need to take captive every imagination that exalts itself above the knowledge of God.

1Cor 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

2Co_10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

YOU>>> That is why we are commanded to renew it. <<<<

ME>>> That is why HE finishes it off and changes it. YOU work at renewing it, same as MOSES held the stick over the Red Sea. Who parted the sea/who changes the heart?

Amen. Abiding in Him and beholding Him and trusting in Him is what changes us.
"For with thee is the fountain of life: in thy light shall we see light." (Psa_36:9)
"In the light of the king's countenance is life" (Pro 16:15)

YOU>>>We are commanded to think on things above and not below. We still have an adversary who will tempt us and living in the flesh we can still be drawn away by "lusts". So, we must overcome through Christ, the World, the Flesh and the Devil. <<<<<

ME>>> yes, when you are saved, you start a journey. The journey is to be changed. I believe he changes you, YOU state you can't be fully changed.

Did I state one cannot be fully changed? I don't believe that.

Scripture says you WILL be changed. This journey you start on has actions you do, such as struggles with obedience, fighting against sins, etc... while doing that, through trials and tribs, He's changing you. For some reason, you don't have faith He could finish the change. The flesh isn't there all your life, NOT if you are being matured in Christ. To assume it stays there has to literally redact several scriptures.

YOU>>>Paul understands this and that is why he makes a distinction between Christ and our flesh. <<<<
ME>>> THat's why he made the point he was no longer in the flesh. :| **bam**

YOU>>>Rom 13:14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof. <<<<

ME>>>> ROm 7:5, Rom 8:9, Rom 6. Rom 6 has you struggling against the flesh AS YOU GROW, romans 7 talks about what you struggle/ fight against, romans 8 shows what victory is, indwelled by the Spirit, NO LONGER in the flesh.

YOU>>>We can still make provision for the flesh and Paul recognizes this.<<<
ME not sure what you mean here.... But scripture says the flesh is gone. You are having to ignore all of that to hold on to this aspect of your theology.

I quoted more here because I think I might run out of the number of quotes I am entitled to in one post. If I run out, I will just color code everything.

Ok, so far, no problem with what you are saying. But, Paul is writing to Christians here and prefaces Romans 13:14 with vs 13.

Rom 13:13 Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying.
Rom 13:14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.

Paul is talking about being carnal minded, here. One can be carnal minded (fleshly minded), though the body of sin is dead.

1Co 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
sarkikos - "fleshly minded"


I said>>>>>Yes, Paul also shows some benefits from following, in fact A benefit that is the catalyst of change. The benefit is the catalyst, not the following/obedience. Following/Obedience doesn't change you, but during that time you are changed...


YOU SAID>>>>>To be more concrete, the Life of Christ in us is the catalyst which will deliver us from every hindrance to loving Him with all our heart. This too, is theory to most and that is what I am trying to combat...the theory about His life and His delivering power for us, now, in this life.

I respond....<<<>>>>>If CHRIST IS IN YOU, you do not sin. 1 john 3:6. If you still have darkness in you, you are not in fellowship with God. 1 john 2:8 and 1:4-6ish. You can't just claim an altar call put Christ in you. That's not the case. You start with freedom from sin/atonement a journey. IF HE WAS IN YOU, you can not sin 1 john 3:9. Now, I know you don't believe those things, but that IS WHAT THE CONTEXT and VERSES SAY.

But, as you say, it is a journey, just exactly like the Children of Israel, rescued from Egypt, and drawn into the wilderness (to see what was in their heart). Led by the presence of God (pillar of cloud by day and fire by night), the Lord used the wilderness (trials and tribulations) to lead them from strength to strength, faith to faith. Many perished in the wilderness, yes? So, we have these scriptures:


1Jn 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

And these scriptures are not given to us to use them as excuses.

You>>>True, the putting off of the body of sin is that the 'old man is crucifed with him that the body of sin might be destroyed"<<<

ME>>> Well then, if it's put off crucified, circumcised as col 2:11 says, how can it still be there to do damage to your walk? That's not making any sense to me. :|

YOU>>>>>Rom 6:6 see the MIGHT be destroyed?
ME>>>>IN Rom 6 you are on the path. Col 2:11 IS destroyed and removed and tossed away.

YOU >>> Rom 6:7
ME>>>> this is a reference to being freed from the law, not from sin. :|

YOU>>>If this were not true, it would be unfair of God to command us with the following:
Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

ME>>>> No it wouldn't be unfair. How can the KING OF KINGS be unfair? Hehehe WOW, God is expected to be fair..... why? Such expectations our mortal selves put on the most powerful.... Anyway, it's not unfair. MOSES HAD TO HOLD HIS HAND UP TO PART THE RED SEA. WHO PARTED THE RED SEA? It's the process of you doing the work, through which HE changes you to make you as perfect as His son was on earth. THAT IS WHAT SCRIPTURE SAYS.

What I am saying is Christ is our provision to perform that which He is commanding us to do.
1Jn 4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Romans 6:22 paints the picture...
You are freed from sin/that's atonement. (This is the same sin you said we can't be freed from). Where did I say that? Could that have been someone else?
You fight obedience/become a slave to sin. (see 6:16 to connect obedience.)
You receive a benefit....
gal 5:16 walk by the spirit.
1 john 3:9 his seed in you
1 john 5:18 HIM in you.... <<<< that benefit in each of those verses is what is responsible for you not sinning.... no you. the benefit....
THE BENEFIT leads to sanctification.

It's a process. Salvation is the first step, not the end goal. I'd like to blow the Church up with it's sin centric focus / teaching and get back to the real message of a Gospel/Good News and how IT can change your lives, not how YOU should strive to change your life without HIS influence.

Believe me, I don't strive to change my life. That is a losing battle. The only striving or laboring I do is to remain in His Rest.

Heb_4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
Heb_4:11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

YOU>>>>Those who know and have experienced the "love of God being shed abroad in their heart" after they received the Lord Jesus (John 1:12), were filled with the Holy Spirit and experienced the circumcision made without hands (by the Holy Spirit), can detect a religious spirit (My sheep know My voice and another they will not follow, John 10). Religious spirits have no testimony of inward life or change and definitely don't have the Love of God.<<<<<<<<<<<

ME>>>> OK, I agree with all of that ( knowing we don't agree, I always like to point out when we do. But how can you conclude .............that if you are filled by the Holy Spirit, and thus NOT in the flesh any longer, that which makes you not do what you wanna do and to do what you don't wanna do is gone, and that which keeps you from giving into temptation has taken it's place.......... that you will still sin?

Actually, I think Romans 7 is pre-Christ. However, do you remember in the OT the picture of the enemies of Israel always attacking Israel and trying to get into their borders (land) and they would seek to build strongholds and fortresses within their borders? And God specifically told them how to "possess the land" and to drive out all inhabitants (not of God) of the land that they were commanded to drive out. What credence if any do you give to spiritual conflict/warfare in this life after one comes to Christ. What is your understanding of our adversary seeking to infiltrate our "borders" and take over our "land" and build strongholds and fortresses in our land? Most, if not all is fear based but just like Israel, if the Christian gives into fear or unbelief, what is your understanding of the possible repercussions for that Believer? When the children of Israel came through the Red Sea they may have thought "ah, that's great, now we can take it easy", but the work had not yet begun, right? Boy, were they in for a surprise. What about the Christian? He/She is delivered from "Egypt" also. Is there not yet a "land" to possess? Is there not a battle? Are there not yet Giants in the land? Will there not be murmuring and complaining and other sins against God? Was Christ not taking care of them and will He still not be with His children today, leading them, instructing them, chastising them (Heb 12) and providing for them? Remember, you said it was a journey and IT IS, I agree!

1Cor 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.


YOU>>>>I heartily agree with you. I keep running into the semantics game myself and am trying to figure out what people have experienced as REALITY in their lives. In the first century, the Apostles and Disciples were not running around telling people that they "have this really cool rulebook that is better than any rulebooks that have ever existed." They were not excited about any "new morals" given to them, or new "rules and regulations" or anything like that. They were full of joy because they had experienced Christ's death and resurrection for themselves and the result of being born from above by His Spirit <joined to the Lord's spirit> (1Co 6:17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.) <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

ME..... errrrr yeah, I agree with that too. we DO disagree on man growing to a point of not sinning again, don't we?

Have I got lost in my own conversation?

3 parts bright, 1 part dull? That's me.


I have not said that man WILL never sin again, I have said, that NOW, he can CHOOSE NOT TO, whereas before, he never had that choice.

I am enjoying the conversation.

Axehead

 

[Xian Pugilist]

Yes, I was talking about Body (physical body) not "body of sin" as in "fleshly body" or "flesh"

2Co_4:11 For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh. <<<<<< Not "body of sin" but our physical body.

Ok then, usually when folks say FLESH they confuse Paul's use of the word for a physical human body, so I assumed... NOW I have to say I have no clue what you are saying there. Hep a brudder out.

True, we have the "mind of Christ" and as such, we need to take captive every imagination that exalts itself above the knowledge of God.

1Cor 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

2Co_10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

There is nothing there about taking captive. By "taking captive" that has you accomplishing. Scripture says it's Him, not us that does the work. The mindset that I have to conquer it is counter productive. That's the frame of mind "building your Spirit stronger". And yet, Christ taught blessed is the POOR in Spirit. Check out that Greek word for poor..... Oh no, keep nomad out of here......

Now, on the 1 cor vss above, when Paul says but "we" have the mind of Christ, why do people assume it's us? Paul said clearly that there were at least two levels of maturity kickin' it in the Church. The mature were talked to differently than the immature; at least that's what he said..... So the "US" there, is it the mature, the immature or the Church? I'm going to go check out the 1 cor vs now and see if I remembered right...... Ok, I'm back..... It appears to me that Paul is trying to establish who the letter is coming from and their credentials. I don't think the comment there would assume the people he wrote to. NOW, as an example, when MOST people read this, they will assume anything the Apostles says "WE" to, would apply to them......

Did I state one cannot be fully changed? I don't believe that.

No, that's the impression I hold so far from your comments is that you deny someone can be sinless before they die.... I'm probably gonna be wrong and assuming here, it's been one of those days so far.

Rom 13:13 Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying.
Rom 13:14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.

Paul is talking about being carnal minded, here. One can be carnal minded (fleshly minded), though the body of sin is dead.

1Co 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
sarkikos - "fleshly minded"

Ok, "let us walk honestly" is a position for all Xians to assume mature and immature.
"YOU PUT ON the Lord Jesus Christ" would be in Romans 6 that is PRE mature, working to maturity..... from my perspective....

carnally minded.... is the Romans 8:5 folks, they are EITHER flesh minded or Spirit of GOd minded, they obey one or the other, not fight with both....

I said>>>>>Yes, Paul also shows some benefits from following, in fact A benefit that is the catalyst of change. The benefit is the catalyst, not the following/obedience. Following/Obedience doesn't change you, but during that time you are changed...


YOU SAID>>>>>To be more concrete, the Life of Christ in us is the catalyst which will deliver us from every hindrance to loving Him with all our heart. This too, is theory to most and that is what I am trying to combat...the theory about His life and His delivering power for us, now, in this life.

I respond....<<<>>>>>If CHRIST IS IN YOU, you do not sin. 1 john 3:6. If you still have darkness in you, you are not in fellowship with God. 1 john 2:8 and 1:4-6ish. You can't just claim an altar call put Christ in you. That's not the case. You start with freedom from sin/atonement a journey. IF HE WAS IN YOU, you can not sin 1 john 3:9. Now, I know you don't believe those things, but that IS WHAT THE CONTEXT and VERSES SAY.

But, as you say, it is a journey, just exactly like the Children of Israel, rescued from Egypt, and drawn into the wilderness (to see what was in their heart). Led by the presence of God (pillar of cloud by day and fire by night), the Lord used the wilderness (trials and tribulations) to lead them from strength to strength, faith to faith. Many perished in the wilderness, yes? So, we have these scriptures:

And like the Jews, only the poor in Spirit, the "like children" went in.....

1Jn 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

And these scriptures are not given to us to use them as excuses.

I"m lost, I didn't track this at all.....
from 1:8-2:1 you see the gospel message. For all have sins on their person, but you can confess them and be forgiven, if you say you have no sins you are full of it, I'm writing this so you may not sin.

.

What I am saying is Christ is our provision to perform that which He is commanding us to do.
1Jn 4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Ok. I concur that it's all about him in us, not us getting into him....

Believe me, I don't strive to change my life. That is a losing battle. The only striving or laboring I do is to remain in His Rest.

Heb_4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
Heb_4:11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

What does that mean. It's used so much it's a cliche most of the time. I know you have a thought with it, help me see in your head here.

ME>>>> OK, I agree with all of that ( knowing we don't agree, I always like to point out when we do. But how can you conclude .............that if you are filled by the Holy Spirit, and thus NOT in the flesh any longer, that which makes you not do what you wanna do and to do what you don't wanna do is gone, and that which keeps you from giving into temptation has taken it's place.......... that you will still sin?

Actually, I think Romans 7 is pre-Christ.

ARGH. Just when I thought you were being smart.... here you go. This is a different thread here though. Perhaps I'll start it, "Paul wasn't discussing himself in romans 7..... that will draw out the people with the torches...

However, do you remember in the OT the picture of the enemies of Israel always attacking Israel and trying to get into their borders (land) and they would seek to build strongholds and fortresses within their borders? And God specifically told them how to "possess the land" and to drive out all inhabitants (not of God) of the land that they were commanded to drive out. What credence if any do you give to spiritual conflict/warfare in this life after one comes to Christ. What is your understanding of our adversary seeking to infiltrate our "borders" and take over our "land" and build strongholds and fortresses in our land?

I have no thought of him trying to infiltrate our "borders". I believe he's been conquered. I deny that HE is the reason that we sinned in the first place. He's a tempter, a beguiler, but he doesn't force us to sin. That's some "ghost busters" version of lucifer not a biblical one. So, I just don't stand on the same grounds with you on the premise of the question.

Most, if not all is fear based but just like Israel, if the Christian gives into fear or unbelief, what is your understanding of the possible repercussions for that Believer?

If you fear sin, then you have yet learned to love as God does in matt 5:48's command. You also haven't accepted Grace except by mouth only. The problem I see is, the Church is so sin centric (one of the reasons Luther rebelled btw) that it has it's people looking to sin not to God. Paul said something along the lines of, "I know of no sin on my person and I don't care either, I focus on the prize before me and run the race.... IF you are taught the actual gospel you are taught God so loved the world..... and that we are given grace to do His works....and through those works we are made as mature as He was on earth.... The Gospel is quite simply LOVE focused not SIN focused. But people are so scared of sin that's all they think about.... So the image you have of a sin centric church has everyone in their church in the race, they get that part right, but they are all looking in their rear view mirror (at sin) and not on the horizon (the finish/prize). They are gonna drive into the ditch several times. If we teach them instead to look to the prize/love, the sin will be left behind as they run the race.

It's backwards. That's why this conversation causes so many people to freak out. They are hearing something they can't comprehend because like a good little lemming they believe what the long line before them did and for generations the Church has taught BURN IN HELL GOD IS A TERRORIST or be saved.

Christ saving us, is really the smallest part of the Gospel. That's depressing it's all some people hear about.

When the children of Israel came through the Red Sea they may have thought "ah, that's great, now we can take it easy", but the work had not yet begun, right? Boy, were they in for a surprise. What about the Christian? He/She is delivered from "Egypt" also. Is there not yet a "land" to possess?

Yeah, you are talking atonement/salvation with delivered from Egypt. That is CHRIST's job, but it's the GATE that Christ is. Atonement/Christ is the gate you go through and growth occurs afterwards.... We are mostly on the same page here...

Is there not a battle? Are there not yet Giants in the land?

Yes there is. And we have to battle them. Romans 6. HOWEVER, the battle isn't ours to win, it's not US that defeats them. WE do the work, but it's GOD doing the work. David and the stone to goliath, moses and the stick parting the sea... they had work to do. GOD conquers it. Now, many people are so focused on what THEY CAN ACCOMPLISH in these battles, they write off that Christ / God could perfect you and that you wouldn't sin any more. It's not about OUR accomplishment, but we WILL do all the work, as HE DOES THE REAL WORK! The red sea didn't part without Moses raising the stick. But Moses didn't part the sea God did.

So when people get stuck on I CAN'T DO IT, MAN can't do it... they miss the point.

Will there not be murmuring and complaining and other sins against God? Was Christ not taking care of them and will He still not be with His children today, leading them, instructing them, chastising them (Heb 12) and providing for them? Remember, you said it was a journey and IT IS, I agree!

Hebrews 12 only has chastising once. The "DISCIPLINE" word has more of a feeling of training. Like Jesus was taught the Carpentry Discipline by Joseph. So all the God will discipline us as his sons vss.... think of Joseph and jesus..... new perspective....

I have not said that man WILL never sin again, I have said, that NOW, he can CHOOSE NOT TO, whereas before, he never had that choice.

I am enjoying the conversation.

Axehead

Ok, so I was right. You are recalcitrant to say man can be at a place where they never sin, but you won't write it off. Where I see it as an expectation, but NOT from focusing on defeating sin, but rather in growing in Love.

 

[Axehead]

[/b]

Ok then, usually when folks say FLESH they confuse Paul's use of the word for a physical human body, so I assumed... NOW I have to say I have no clue what you are saying there. Hep a brudder out.








There is nothing there about taking captive. By "taking captive" that has you accomplishing. Scripture says it's Him, not us that does the work. The mindset that I have to conquer it is counter productive. That's the frame of mind "building your Spirit stronger". And yet, Christ taught blessed is the POOR in Spirit. Check out that Greek word for poor..... Oh no, keep nomad out of here......

Now, on the 1 cor vss above, when Paul says but "we" have the mind of Christ, why do people assume it's us? Paul said clearly that there were at least two levels of maturity kickin' it in the Church. The mature were talked to differently than the immature; at least that's what he said..... So the "US" there, is it the mature, the immature or the Church? I'm going to go check out the 1 cor vs now and see if I remembered right...... Ok, I'm back..... It appears to me that Paul is trying to establish who the letter is coming from and their credentials. I don't think the comment there would assume the people he wrote to. NOW, as an example, when MOST people read this, they will assume anything the Apostles says "WE" to, would apply to them......

[/color]

No, that's the impression I hold so far from your comments is that you deny someone can be sinless before they die.... I'm probably gonna be wrong and assuming here, it's been one of those days so far.



[/color]

Ok, "let us walk honestly" is a position for all Xians to assume mature and immature.
"YOU PUT ON the Lord Jesus Christ" would be in Romans 6 that is PRE mature, working to maturity..... from my perspective....

carnally minded.... is the Romans 8:5 folks, they are EITHER flesh minded or Spirit of GOd minded, they obey one or the other, not fight with both....


[/color]

And like the Jews, only the poor in Spirit, the "like children" went in.....

[/color]



I"m lost, I didn't track this at all.....
from 1:8-2:1 you see the gospel message. For all have sins on their person, but you can confess them and be forgiven, if you say you have no sins you are full of it, I'm writing this so you may not sin.

[/b][/color]

Ok. I concur that it's all about him in us, not us getting into him....

[/color]

What does that mean. It's used so much it's a cliche most of the time. I know you have a thought with it, help me see in your head here.

[/color]

ARGH. Just when I thought you were being smart.... here you go. This is a different thread here though. Perhaps I'll start it, "Paul wasn't discussing himself in romans 7..... that will draw out the people with the torches...

[/color]

I have no thought of him trying to infiltrate our "borders". I believe he's been conquered. I deny that HE is the reason that we sinned in the first place. He's a tempter, a beguiler, but he doesn't force us to sin. That's some "ghost busters" version of lucifer not a biblical one. So, I just don't stand on the same grounds with you on the premise of the question.

[/color]

If you fear sin, then you have yet learned to love as God does in matt 5:48's command. You also haven't accepted Grace except by mouth only. The problem I see is, the Church is so sin centric (one of the reasons Luther rebelled btw) that it has it's people looking to sin not to God. Paul said something along the lines of, "I know of no sin on my person and I don't care either, I focus on the prize before me and run the race.... IF you are taught the actual gospel you are taught God so loved the world..... and that we are given grace to do His works....and through those works we are made as mature as He was on earth.... The Gospel is quite simply LOVE focused not SIN focused. But people are so scared of sin that's all they think about.... So the image you have of a sin centric church has everyone in their church in the race, they get that part right, but they are all looking in their rear view mirror (at sin) and not on the horizon (the finish/prize). They are gonna drive into the ditch several times. If we teach them instead to look to the prize/love, the sin will be left behind as they run the race.

It's backwards. That's why this conversation causes so many people to freak out. They are hearing something they can't comprehend because like a good little lemming they believe what the long line before them did and for generations the Church has taught BURN IN HELL GOD IS A TERRORIST or be saved.

Christ saving us, is really the smallest part of the Gospel. That's depressing it's all some people hear about.

[/color]

Yeah, you are talking atonement/salvation with delivered from Egypt. That is CHRIST's job, but it's the GATE that Christ is. Atonement/Christ is the gate you go through and growth occurs afterwards.... We are mostly on the same page here...

[/color]

Yes there is. And we have to battle them. Romans 6. HOWEVER, the battle isn't ours to win, it's not US that defeats them. WE do the work, but it's GOD doing the work. David and the stone to goliath, moses and the stick parting the sea... they had work to do. GOD conquers it. Now, many people are so focused on what THEY CAN ACCOMPLISH in these battles, they write off that Christ / God could perfect you and that you wouldn't sin any more. It's not about OUR accomplishment, but we WILL do all the work, as HE DOES THE REAL WORK! The red sea didn't part without Moses raising the stick. But Moses didn't part the sea God did.

So when people get stuck on I CAN'T DO IT, MAN can't do it... they miss the point.

[/color]

Hebrews 12 only has chastising once. The "DISCIPLINE" word has more of a feeling of training. Like Jesus was taught the Carpentry Discipline by Joseph. So all the God will discipline us as his sons vss.... think of Joseph and jesus..... new perspective....



Ok, so I was right. You are recalcitrant to say man can be at a place where they never sin, but you won't write it off. Where I see it as an expectation, but NOT from focusing on defeating sin, but rather in growing in Love.

ahhhh, my head is spinning.

Where to begin and what to straighten out? I dunno. Maybe, I'll just let things lay where they are.

But, let me just say, Christ is the focal point and always should be, not sin. With that said, Paul and the other Apostles dealt a lot with sin. Many warnings about it and strong admonitions.

1Pe 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin; <<<< I do believe this scripture, if that helps you any.

1Pe 4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.

Here is a question: Briefly, where do you see the cross in the Christian life, such as below?

Gal 6:14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.

Though you say the Church should not be sin conscious (and I agree), we should be Christ conscious.

You do realize in almost every book of the New Testament, including Jesus' letters to the 7 Churches that sin is talked about an awful lot. There are warnings and admonitions all over the NT, regarding sin, and not walking in the flesh vs walking in the Spirit, being conformed to Christ rather than conformed to this world, seeking things above rather than below.

We do have the Apostles writing things like this to the Churches:

1Pe 4:15 But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men's matters.

The book of James is written to those who know the Lord Jesus:
Jas 2:1 My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.

James, says things like this:

Jas 4:1 From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members?
Jas 4:2 Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not.
Jas 4:3 Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts.
Jas 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

It is clear that many took advantage of the grace of God and lived like God's grace was license to sin. Paul dealt with this in Galatians.

Gal_2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.

And here is that "flesh" word again. Obviously, Paul was witnessing Christians (who had been beguiled by another spirit) walking out their "Christian walk" in the flesh.

Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Gal 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

This just demonstrates to me that the Christian walk is a process and there are many pitfalls and snares and deceptions awaiting all of us. But, we keep our focus on Jesus (Heb 12:1). What God wants to teach us in the "school of the Spirit" (daily life) is how to sow to the Spirit (looking to Him) and not to the flesh and what abiding in Him means, what it looks like. "If you love me you will obey me".

Again, another warning: And what is this flesh that is being talked about again?
Gal_6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

You talk about Colossians 2:11 but shortly thereafter Paul is telling the Believers the following:

Col 3:5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
Col 3:6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
Col 3:7 In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them.
Col 3:8 But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.
Col 3:9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;

Paul talks about the works of the flesh in Galatians, too.

Do you see what I am saying?


Joh 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
Joh 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

Being conformed to the image of Christ and being perfected in love is a process. You don't arrive on the 1st day.

1Jn 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

Maybe your head is spinning now. It's late, I can barely think, but I'll join you for coffee in the morning.

Axehead

 

[Xian Pugilist]

But, let me just say, Christ is the focal point and always should be, not sin. With that said, Paul and the other Apostles dealt a lot with sin. Many warnings about it and strong admonitions.

Yes, be aware but not concerned. paul said he didn't pay attention to the sins and wasn't aware of any, what he did was watch the prize and run the race.

Paul wrote how atonement was to give us clear conscience before God, so (i assume) we can return home like the prodigal son did. There to be cleaned, washed, healed, made right again and welcomed home.



[quote name='Axehead' timestamp='1349850411' post='169112']Here is a question: Briefly, where do you see the cross in the Christian life, such as below?[/quote]

Theological answer? Or the gist of it? The cross is the avenue GOD CHOSE to use to give us assurance He would forgive our sins. Man was made to protect and love their child. God sent His child to show how much He loved. There is no greater love than one lay down his life for another. Without adam's sin and Christ's death, we wouldn't know how much God loved us. The comfort of knowing, having a promise, a covenant that He would forgive our sins was the purpose of the cross.

When you get down to it, it's for OUR perception, not for any requirement of God to forgive sins. It was necessary ONLY because God declared it to be necessary. God could have set us off on the holy purple earthworm quest had He chosen.

Christ's blood has no supernatural ability over an omnipotent God. Neither the blood, nor the cross saves you, it's HIS PROMISE alone. Since HIS promise was balanced on the cross and the blood, THEN they become relevant to the chat.

Though you say the Church should not be sin conscious (and I agree), we should be Christ conscious.

Yes, GOD IS LOVE. EPh 4 teach the people to do the loving acts they were saved to do, THROUGH TTHOSE WORKS Xian Maturity comes from.

If you RUN FROM SIN, you run 359 directions that are wrong. The only way TO GOD is love. 1 john 4:16-18. You have 359 wrong ways to go if you are focused on sin, to 1 right way, that's.... need conkulator hang on...a quarter of one percent chance to make it. WOOT WOOT RAY COMFORT what a man you are.... I guess that's better than a ZERO percent chance, right?

However if you run TO LOVE, and not from sin, you have a 1 in 1 chance of finding GOD who IS LOVE.

You do realize in almost every book of the New Testament, including Jesus' letters to the 7 Churches that sin is talked about an awful lot.

Not with the significance that love is.

If you never ever sinned in your life, but didn't have the love down, you are going to hell. 1 john 4:16-18. (that's assuming it's possible to never sin without having love which is a semantic nightmare...)

There are warnings and admonitions all over the NT, regarding sin, and not walking in the flesh vs walking in the Spirit, being conformed to Christ rather than conformed to this world, seeking things above rather than below.

Yeah? and?
There are more about love, if not by word, then by description. And many will overlap.

We do have the Apostles writing things like this to the Churches:

1Pe 4:15 But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men's matters.

Yeah? and? am I gonna have to go pull all the vss regarding works of love/ love/ parables of love/etc..... do we have a scale/balance/fulcrum here?

The book of James is written to those who know the Lord Jesus:
Jas 2:1 My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.

James, says things like this:

Jas 4:1 From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members?
Jas 4:2 Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not.
Jas 4:3 Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts.
Jas 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

James clearly outweighs the sin conversation with the doing loving acts conversation....

Still, you got Paul saying he doesn't pay heed to the sins, but watches the prize.

What does blessed is the poor in spirit mean to you? How are you going to be there, when you focus on making yourself stronger?

Gal_2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.

This doesn't say to focus on the sin. In fact in 2:20 it promotes my overall view. It's not me who lives (col 2:11 sinful nature removed) but HE who lives in me (romans 8:9 spirit, that accomplishes gal 5:16 not give to temptation.) In fact the chat here doesn't deal with something for the chat of love or sin focused at all.

And here is that "flesh" word again. Obviously, Paul was witnessing Christians (who had been beguiled by another spirit) walking out their "Christian walk" in the flesh.

Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Gal 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Well, it gets down to the blessed are the poor in spirit. You can't do it by your own, but by Him and His spirit. So when you try to conquer and bridle sin yourself and that is your main focus, you are doing just what you bolded make perfect by your flesh. NOT being weak and dependent on Him.
Trump cards are soo cool.

This just demonstrates to me that the Christian walk is a process and there are many pitfalls and snares and deceptions awaiting all of us.

If you are going to walk a narrow bridge, are you looking off of the side at the chasm (sin), or to the destination to keep a straight line, (God/love). Paul said....
13 Brethren, I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet; but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.NASB

Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.NASB

[quote name='Axehead' timestamp='1349850411' post='169112'] But, we keep our focus on Jesus (Heb 12:1). What God wants to teach us in the "school of the Spirit" (daily life) is how to sow to the Spirit (looking to Him) and not to the flesh and what abiding in Him means, what it looks like. "If you love me you will obey me". [/quote]

Absolutely. But obeying him is a result of loving him, NOT obeying Him is what you must do to be able to claim you love Him. Obedience is a result of love. You can't force obedience and claim love, but if you really love you will be obedient.

Again, another warning: And what is this flesh that is being talked about again?
Gal_6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

What is the flesh should be its own thread. Obviously we have different views on it. But I'll say this, the flesh is something that when removed from the human body doesn't cause the death of said body. So it's not the muscles and sinews as many envision it.

You talk about Colossians 2:11 but shortly thereafter Paul is telling the Believers the following:

Col 3:5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
Col 3:6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
Col 3:7 In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them.
Col 3:8 But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.
Col 3:9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;

Yeah? And?? Moses was told to raise the stick over his head.

Did Moses part the red sea?

See also ROmans 6, actions you take, that God works through, giving you a benefit and the benefit, not the actions lead to sanctification. You need to gain the benefit, not master the actions.

Paul talks about the works of the flesh in Galatians, too.

Do you see what I am saying?

Sure. I used to see it the same way.

Joh 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
Joh 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

So if someone says they love Him you have a yardstick to measure their claim by.
You can have an atheist keep those words, that wouldn't mean He would love Jesus.
Obedience is a result of love.
NOT your strength at obedience is required to love.

One way Obedience is a result, the other view it's a catalyst. It's not a catalyst.

Being conformed to the image of Christ and being perfected in love is a process. You don't arrive on the 1st day.

1Jn 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

Maybe your head is spinning now. It's late, I can barely think, but I'll join you for coffee in the morning.



Axehead

Yes, it's a process. But it's one that is completed on earth.

 

[Axehead]

The Law of the Spirit
The work of the Holy Spirit brings forth God's righteousness in the heart has been described as a fire that purges and as a knife that circumcises.

But, how does one come to have righteous desires?

The promise of righteousness is found in the First Covenant.

Eze 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
Eze 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Eze 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

The word of the Lord speaks of a New Covenant in which there will be cleansing from ALL DEFILEMENT and the Holy Spirit of God would be living within man. And through another prophet, God speaks of putting His laws within man.

Jer 31:33 "...I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people."

Before, we had commandments on tablets of stone but now hearts receive the engraving of the Holy Spirit.

God will have His law written in the heart of man; doing this, righteous desires come forth.

God has not forsaken His law anymore than He has forsaken His righteousness. He has found a better place to write it. God still desires a covenant people with His laws in their hearts.

Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

The tablets of stone could not judge the heart nor discern the thoughts; they waited to judge THE ACT. But with the Spirit the thoughts and intents of the heart come under judgment. This righteousness of the heart is emphasized by the Lord;


Mat 5:27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
Mat 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

He also speaks of anger and hatred in the heart preceding the act of murder. He speaks of the eye as being the door for great darkness in the soul. God is no longer satisfied with an outward from piety, His Spirit requires righteousness in the heart.

The walk in the Spirit speaks of a life under His law and government. The command comes, "This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh" (Gal 5:16).

Lawlessness does not produce righteousness. Instead, it gives full release to the flesh.

The denial of God is directed toward His throne more than His person because the lawless reject authority.

Axehead

 

[Xian Pugilist]

It also says through works, led by the Church, you gain that knowledge and that maturity. Same as moses at the red sea, you do things for God to do His things.....

This is the catalyst for the supernatural heart changing.... the problem is, people claim a changed heart, before they start doing the works that change it. Then they have to explain why they are changed when there is little to no change in their lives. Thus when they see a verse that shows real change, they have to rerender it into something that agrees with their theology.

You are changed through the works. It will be the supernatural event you posted vss describing, but it will be through works that you do, that he changes you.

Also, if you love neighbor, works are part of that love. W/out them you ain't lovin', see sheep / goats, matt 25.

Where does this leave us?

 

[dragonfly]

Hi XP,

It also says through works, led by the Church, you gain that knowledge and that maturity. Same as moses at the red sea, you do things for God to do His things.....

There's a vital (life or death vital) qualification to your statement to be found in Matthew 7:21. Anyone can join in church activities and promote a social gospel. Anyone can do good works out of self-interest, but be utterly devoid of the Holy Spirit's enlivening and direction.

Only when we each, as individuals, have received into our own hearts, the effect of 'our old man' (the Adamic nature) crucified with Christ in our own reality, by a genuine interaction with God the Father Himself, are we genuinely free to love with His love.


'Where does this leave us?' In Romans 12:

[sup]1 [/sup]I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, [which is] your reasonable service. 2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what [is] that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.



Hi Axehead,

Your post sparked some thoughts about the arks in scripture, as a type of the heart .

Before, we had commandments on tablets of stone but now hearts receive the engraving of the Holy Spirit.

Without the engraving of the Spirit on our hearts, there will be no desire to present our bodies as living sacrifices to God.


Thinking about the tablets of stone, reminded me of the Ark of the Covenant, which is a type of an hollow, empty heart into which have been put such strict rules that they were impossible for a fallen people to keep. Some even died for their sin, as there was no forgiveness.

That ark became a container of death, like Christ's tomb.

Matthew 27:60, Mark 15:46. Death can be perfumed and beautified, but it is still death nevertheless.

Like our hearts, dead in sin, so Christ became sin for us, and bore our death:

Acts 2 [sup]23 [/sup]Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: [sup]24 [/sup]whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

But then He also became a container of life, as our hearts can do. John 20:1, Luke 24:2.

Matthew 28:6 He is not here: for he is risen, as he said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay.


The mercy of God in Jesus Christ, is:

Acts 13:38 Be it known to you therefore, men [and] brethren, that through this man is preached to you the forgiveness of sins: 39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

And by Him, all that believe are justified from all things from which you could not be justified under the doctrines of man, either.


The other ark, Noah's, is a different picture - of the heart being the centre in which salvation begins. Inside that Ark, though tossed about by rain and flood, were many rooms, where everything was alive to God. The contents of that 'heart' were soft and capable of reproducing life.

Genesis 1:29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which [is] upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which [is] the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.

The same picture is with us again under the New Covenant, where the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus is written in our hearts, that everything in our lives should be alive to God, and capable of reproducing His life, that others may take, eat, and be changed.

Galatians 5
[sup]22 [/sup]But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, [sup]23 [/sup]meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.


1 Corinthians 13:13 And now abides faith [conviction of the truth], hope, charity [agape], these three; but the greatest of these [is] agape.


Romans 5:1 - 9
Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: by whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

And not only [so], but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation works patience; and patience, experience; and experience, hope: and hope makes not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. 8 But God commends his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. Titus 2:14

 

[Axehead]

It also says through works, led by the Church, you gain that knowledge and that maturity. Same as moses at the red sea, you do things for God to do His things.....

This is the catalyst for the supernatural heart changing.... the problem is, people claim a changed heart, before they start doing the works that change it. Then they have to explain why they are changed when there is little to no change in their lives. Thus when they see a verse that shows real change, they have to rerender it into something that agrees with their theology.

You are changed through the works. It will be the supernatural event you posted vss describing, but it will be through works that you do, that he changes you.

Also, if you love neighbor, works are part of that love. W/out them you ain't lovin', see sheep / goats, matt 25.

Where does this leave us?

I do see some truth in your post.

Where does that leave us?

Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, IF,IF,IF we faint not. (Gal 6:8-9)

Heb 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, IF,IF,IF we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

Heb 3:6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, IF,IF,IF we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

Heb 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but IF,IF,IF any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
IF,IF,IF ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister; (Col 1:22-23)

Where does it leave us?

Running the race with patience, Looking unto Jesus... (Heb 12:1)

For anyone reading this, the race is not over, yet.


When Paul speaks of works, he is fearful of dead works without a living faith.
When James speaks of works, he is fearful of a dead faith that produces no good works.

If no works (of the Spirit) are produced, faith is a mere dead thing, good for nothing. One who produces no good works proves he has not received the Lord Jesus (John 1:12) and continued in Him (abiding, loving Him). Loving God manifests itself in obedience to Him and love for others.


John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

Here is our standard - As Jesus walked in relationship with His Father we are to walk, that same walk of relationship. That is what He has taught us by His life, by His Word and by His Spirit -- How to walk in relationship with Him (and others).

Rev 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

John 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

[font="arial][color="#000000"]Axehead[/color][/font]

 

[Xian Pugilist]

HEY,

Ok we are all friends and just talking right? When I disagree strongly you aren't going to feel it's personal. I think we both know that the other is totally whack and outta their mind with bad theology, right? I grew up on the Greek Island Hyperbole, can you tell?

Hi XP,

There's a vital (life or death vital) qualification to your statement to be found in Matthew 7:21.

????? Tell me why the people in matt 25/sheep went to heaven because they did the works and the goats, THAT KNEW THE SHEPHERD TOO went straight to hell? You are knee jerking to the WORKS part of agapao I think. If you don't have the works you are NOT a person that is "homeward" bound. That is not saying the works save you which is how you are reacting. While they don't save you, if you don't have them you are not saved.

The sheep had to have the works. NOT for earning their way, but because you have to LOVE to be going forward/heavenward. Agapao requires the works/demonstration to be agapao. It's not something you do planning your path to heaven. It's something that is the natural result of who you are.

1 john 4:16-18 would establish that if you don't love, you aren't in Him and He isn't in you. Are you going to tell me that you are going to heaven without being in Him?

Matt 5:48 is a command to love as completely as God does, and the way the Christ explained it, would result in providential events EVEN TO YOUR ENEMIES.

Now, you can flaunt that matt 7 verse around all day long, but when you face God at judgement, because you are not in the lambs book of life because you are a goat not a sheep, I don't think you are going to out debate GOD. So I think it would behoove the whole faith to remind them the Martyrs on who's back the Church was built, were known for the works of love they performed, not their hate mongering, try to legislate the faith, show off how much they know about God mentality. (that's a slam at the corporate church, not you...) If the Church doesn't start doing the challenge in EPh 4 and prepare the people for works of service, it's going to fail in it's purpose.

It's not all about being saved. Period. But that's all some know. It's a travesty.

Anyone can join in church activities and promote a social gospel. Anyone can do good works out of self-interest, but be utterly devoid of the Holy Spirit's enlivening and direction.

Now you are assuming things into the equation that don't belong there. YOU WILL DO WORKS IF YOU LOVE AS YOU ARE SUPPOSED TO> THEY WILL NOT BE OUT OF SELF INTEREST. IF YOU DO NOT HAVE THE WORKS, YOU DO NOT HAVE FAITH. IF YOU DO NOT HAVE FAITH, YOU DO NOT GET TO GRACE, and without grace you are worm fertilizer.

Only when we each, as individuals, have received into our own hearts,

Eph 4 says you get that through works. So what's holding you back besides a quirky read of the matt 7 verse up there?

the effect of 'our old man' (the Adamic nature) crucified with Christ in our own reality, by a genuine interaction with God the Father Himself, are we genuinely free to love with His love.


'Where does this leave us?' In Romans 12:

[sup]1 [/sup]I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, [which is] your reasonable service. 2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what [is] that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Notice it says BE transformed? You are trying to transform yourself, and others for that matter.
What are you a sacrifice for?
You are His instrument of Rightesousness.
What is I. of R.? It's a tool HE uses to execute His love on Earth to HIS people both as Love and as father.
Sacrifice our body to Him for HIM to use.

The rich young ruler was told to do that. Sell all that he had to provide for himself, and become totally dependent on Christ to be perfect. NOT SAVED, but perfect, meaning matured, finished. Salvation he had, he had that first to become mature. You have to have milk before meat. To focus on mature/perfect, he had to have milk immature first. TO BECOME MATURE HE HAD TO BECOME DEPENDENT ON CHRIST.

Blessed are the poor in Spirit. Let me show you what the word in Greek for POOR means... the simple version...

1) reduced to beggary, begging, asking alms​

2) destitute of wealth, influence, position, honour​

a) lowly, afflicted, destitute of the Christian virtues and eternal riches​

B) helpless, powerless to accomplish an end​

c) poor, needy​

3) lacking in anything​

a) as respects their spirit​

1) destitute of wealth of learning and intellectual culture which the schools afford (men of this class most readily give themselves up to Christ's teaching and proved them selves fitted to lay hold of the heavenly treasure)​

Picture King Arthur Knighting Sir Dragonfly.​

He provides a mount, a squire or two, a person to train to be a squire, armor, weapons and an allowance to provide for himself and his wards.​

Now, if Sir Dragonfly just goes rides through the countryside, LOOKING all Knightly, and standing up straight in really well polished armor, sharing money to the people in the Kings name, but doesn't defend against the threats He's been knighted to do, failing to do the works he was made to do, he isn't a knight, he's a man in pretty armor on a horse.​

You were doing so good, and then..... Please accept my teasing ways....

I do see some truth in your post.

then you only looked at parts. it's all true.

Running the race with patience, Looking unto Jesus... (Heb 12:1)

For anyone reading this, the race is not over, yet.

Well, problem is, Paul said himself and others were there. AND Paul said that His job was to prepare us to be there as well. So I can't accept that. It's no where in scripture. It's like one of those old wive's tales that won't die and go away.

The very verse you quote is him telling some less mature how to become mature. If you go down into Heb 12 all those DISCIPLINE WORDS????? that the Church seems to teach as punishment type thoughts, if you study the word it's got more of a TRAINING FLAVOR than punishment. So it's true my basketball punished me daily. I ran three miles before practice, shot 100 free throws, THEN went through practice, then did sprints, THEN shot another 100 free throws. He was teaching us a basketball discipline. Joseph taught Jesus the carpentry discipline. To learn it you can bet your booty he hauled a lotta wood and did a lotta work. SO I do not think that verse, in context is going to handle the thought you put with it......

When Paul speaks of works, he is fearful of dead works without a living faith.
When James speaks of works, he is fearful of a dead faith that produces no good works.

Paul speaks of works regarding salvation.
James speaks of works to justify your faith and the faith leads to salvation.
They aren't discussing the same thing in the furthest stretch of it.
Stake in walmart
Stake in my tent.

If no works (of the Spirit) are produced, faith is a mere dead thing, good for nothing. One who produces no good works proves he has not received the Lord Jesus (John 1:12) and continued in Him (abiding, loving Him). Loving God manifests itself in obedience to Him and love for others.


John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

Here is our standard - As Jesus walked in relationship with His Father we are to walk, that same walk of relationship. That is what He has taught us by His life, by His Word and by His Spirit -- How to walk in relationship with Him (and others).

Rev 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

John 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

Axehead

We are really really really close in this. I put my tweaks up there where they belonged. We don't agree on it all, yet, but we will. hehehe

 

[Axehead]

The Law of the Spirit, continued.

Just wanted to "top off" some thoughts on my last post on the Law of the Spirit.

The Law of the Spirit is a principle or governing force operating within man. It is a principle that not only governs his behavior, but also a power that overcomes desires that would lead to sin. The Law of the Spirit is like light that drives out darkness, like life that overcomes death, like the law of aerodynamics that overcomes gravity. "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death" (Romans 8:2).

This law of the Spirit operates within the life dwelling in Christ, for it is "the law of the Spirit of life in Christ." That life was a righteous life; in all things He submitted to the will of God. When John the Baptist hesitated to baptize Him, He revealed His heart with these words, "Suffer (permit) it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness..." (Matt 3:15).

It is no surprise that the Spirit of God descended upon One whose intent of heart was to fulfill all righteousness.

"And if Christ be in you, ...but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. (Romans 8:10).

If one lives by His life, he will live by "the law of the Spirit" which was in His life. Here is righteousness, and here is life for the spirit of man. Note that this verse clearly says that "righteousness" is the life of the Spirit. Therefore, we can conclude that there is no spiritual life apart from righteousness. One must allow His laws to be written on the heart and in the mind, this is the work of the Spirit.


"But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows" (Heb 1:8-9)

The law of the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ loved righteousness and hated lawlessness (iniquity).

This will be a defining mark or character trait in the lives of those who have the Spirit.

Axehead

 

[dragonfly]

Hi XP,

Thanks for your reply to my post. I don't understand why you went to so much trouble to resist the verses I used to support my reply to you.


Do you?



It seems to me you are uncomfortable with Romans 6:6, and Matt 7:21, because they are pretty radical when put in their right context within the NT. I note you're fond of alluding to Matt 25. I would agree there are plenty of tasks to do. My point is that the qualifying factors which Jesus Christ Himself put into His doctrine - such as 'do the will of my Father' - must be correctly negotiated, or all the prison ministry in the world won't save you.

How do you know what is 'the will of the Father'?

Jesus said it more than once:

Mark 3:31 There came then his brethren and his mother, and, standing without, sent unto him, calling him.
32 And the multitude sat about him, and they said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren without seek for thee.
33 And he answered them, saying, Who is my mother, or my brethren?
34 And he looked round about on them which sat about him, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
35 For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.


Psalm 40:6 Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required.
7 Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book [it is] written of me, (Hebrews 10)
8 I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law [is] within my heart.


Hebrews 8:10 For this [is] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord;
I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people.


John 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just;
because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.


Luke 22:42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.


Matthew 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither [can] a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.


John 15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done to you.


Ephesians 4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;


One important aspect of the righteousness of Jesus Christ, was His perfect obedience to His Father.


Isaiah 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, [in whom] my soul delights; I have put my spirit upon him...'


Matthew 3:15 And Jesus answering said to him, Suffer [it to be so] now: for thus it becomes us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.
16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened to him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: 17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.


Hebrews 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected [us], and we gave [them] reverence:
shall we not much rather be in subjection to the Father of spirits, and live?

 

[Axehead]

Amen Dragonfly!

It is about being in subjection to the Father (right relationship) so that we can know His will and do it. It's not about us doing what we think is the correct thing to do. The good works we do are to be as we are in subjection to the Father's authority and abiding in His Son through the Spirit. Jesus said that He always did what He saw the Father doing. In other words, Jesus was not doing His own thing.

One very important thing about Matthew 25 is that the Jesus told the 5 foolish virgins, "I know you not" when they came to the door and implored Him to open it. This "knowing" is an intimate, relationship based knowing such as Mary was engaged in while Martha was working hard (her works) in the kitchen and reproving Mary openly to the Lord. Obviously, you could see some rotten fruit, there, but Martha was oblivious to it because she obviously thought good works had nothing to do with being in relationship with the Lord. Think about it. Should we engage in "good works" and then at the same time, tell the Lord to get all over those who WE DON"T THINK ARE DOING ENOUGH GOOD WORKS? That is a rhetorical question. I know you know the answer to that.

So, there are Spirit authored works and these we will do as we bring our will into harmony and unity with the Lord's will. And then there are the "Martha works" that don't have much to do with relationship with the Lord, and yet those involved with these types of works are always comparing others with themselves and making judgments.

Jesus said that many will boast about all the "wonderful works" they did for Him, but again here is that phrase, "I never knew you".

Is this anything new? No. The Lord tells us through Jeremiah what is important to Him.


Jer 9:23 Thus saith the LORD, Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom, neither let the mighty man glory in his might, let not the rich man glory in his riches:
Jer 9:24 But let him that glorieth glory in this, that he understandeth and knoweth me, that I am the LORD which exercise lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth: for in these things I delight, saith the LORD.

Axehead

 

[dragonfly]

Hi Axehead,

Thanks for the Martha-Mary contrast and your analysis of it.

I had never thought that people who 'do good works' (separate from God's personal guiding), think they are doing their own thing. I thought the whole problem is, that they think they are doing God's thing. They think they have understood what He wants!

That's why the verse which you ended with is so poignant, with the emphasis you brought out on knowing God, which Jeremiah phrased it in the most intimate term, [knowing] 'me'.

The further analysis I would make is this: that as usual, God puts His finger straight on the key issue - the knowledge of God (tree of life) - and how He challenges every one of us to know Him first, as the source of all life, before any other intimacy. He will carry on pressing until one has reached the point Paul expressed in Philippians 3, of laying down everything else he'd known or gained, that he might 'know Him'.

It seems Martha was satisfied with the level of her interaction with Jesus as a guest who came and went, but Mary wanted to understand His heart.


Jer 9:24 But let him that glorieth glory in this, that he understandeth and knoweth me, that I am the LORD which exercise lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth: for in these things I delight, saith the LORD.


'for in these things I delight', saith the LORD ... the exercise of 'lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness'.