Can You Be Righteous

[dragonfly]

In Romans 6, Paul is talking figuratively. It's like saying, "I almost died of embarrassment"

Hi Stan,

That you think Paul is speaking figuratively in Romans 6, comes as quite a surprise to me.

It's a surprise because Jesus Christ really did die as He indicated was necessary in John 12:24. He really did crush the serpent's head before He cried 'It is finished!' And He really was buried. Then He really was resurrected, to show us death was abolished. The idea that all this was just a 'figurative' victory does not ring true to me, at all. But that's what it would have to be, if our identification with His death, is to be only figurative.

The victories over sin that I've received since I appropriated His death, are far from figurative. That's my testimony. There was a sea-change in my inner man after I'd accepted His death as my own. I was lagging way behind in mental understanding, but, I was walking in truth. The focus on our flesh and our failures which certain teachers promote instead of the promotion of looking to Christ, is a hindrance to faith.


Hi Son of Man,

Son of Man, on 21 September 2012 - 08:12 AM, said:

They are denying the power of the Spirit of God. Their form of godliness is the wisdom of men. But the power of God bearing witness of them is not there. It takes following Christ, doing what He showed as an example and what he taught to understand it.

37 If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me;
4And my speech and my preaching were not with persuasive words of human wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power,
5 that your faith should not be in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.

Or just hearing the many scriptures that tell you to ask God as a faithful creator.
Who has gone out into the wilderness to follow God without preparing their way back to failure?


Anyone?

You are so spot on in your posts, I just enjoy reading them!

It takes following Christ, doing what He showed as an example and what he taught to understand it.

John 7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or [whether] I speak of myself.


Usually I would feel that any addition or discussion, would detract from the stark truth you seem to encapsulate in a few words. But this time, the last line intrigues me.

Who has gone out into the wilderness to follow God without preparing their way back to failure?

Are you just referring to a kind of 'wanna go back to Egypt' mentality?

You are not actually recommending it, but you think that a return to sin is never far from some peopel's desires?

 

[Stan]

Thank you, Episkopos. Simple answers for simple questions. Stan, do you agree with Episkopos' answers?

I don't really care what his answers are, I said I was NOT going to answer and I'm not.

Ginomai appears in the NT 200 times. In John 1:14, ginomai appears. The Word was made flesh. In John 1:14 and 2 Cor 5:21 the present tense of ginomai is used. God become flesh in our human reality and it is on the stage of human experience that God performs His word in us, NOW.

Let show the folks the rest of ginomai that you did not post.

In John 1:14 it is in the past tense and in 2 Cor 5:21 it is in the future tense.
That word is actually used 678 times Axehead, 47 times as the word "become" in the future tense. Here are other verses in which it is used in the same way;
1Sa 18:27 David and his men went out and killed two hundred Philistines. He brought their foreskins and presented the full number to the king so that he might become the king's son-in-law. Then Saul gave him his daughter Michal in marriage. Rom 7:13 Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! But in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it produced death in me through what was good, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful. Rom 15:16 to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles with the priestly duty of proclaiming the gospel of God, so that the Gentiles might become an offering acceptable to God, sanctified by the Holy Spirit. 2Cr 5:21 God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. 2Cr 8:9 For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, so that you through his poverty might become rich. Tts 3:7 so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life. Hbr 2:17 For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people.


As I've said before, it is incumbent on those using Biblical study tools to use them properly and correctly. There is no valid excuse to not do so, given that most can access these tools these days.

 

[Axehead]

Ok, Stan, thank you for sharing that.

I want to talk about the Baptism of Fire. Christ came to make men righteous and this is more than just a legal reckoning. Righteousness is to be experienced as a work of the Holy Spirit. This is radical and immediate. How many of you can testify that when you were born of the spirit a radical and immediate change took place in your spirit and in your heart? No longer did you love or desire to sin. It seems all your motivations were changing. Now, you desired to please God and obey Him from the heart. If you sinned it was like someone stabbed you in the heart the pain was so bad from sinning against the Lord. You were moved to ask people for forgiveness and make reconciliation wherever possible with others. You were tender and sensitive to the Spirit as the love of God had been shed abroad in your heart. You truly were a New Creation, a Brand New Man. This is a work of the Spirit of God.

The Holy Spirit will come as a fire to purge you from all defilement as a knife to circumcise the heart. "Christ in You, the hope of Glory", is the Holy Spirit in you bringing forth His righteousness (Colossians 1:27).

The Scriptures speak of a purging of fire that comes by the Spirit. The emphasis today has been on "ye shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you" (Acts 1:8). However, the work of purity in sanctification is equally important. This work of the Spirit that brings cleansing from all defilement is described as "fire". John the Baptist spoke of this when he said, "he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:" (Matthew 3:11).

There is a righteousness broght forth by the purging of fire that cleanses one from all defilement. When the prophet saw the defilement of the daughters of Zion, "...the Lord...washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion...by the spirit of judgment and the spirit of burning" (Isaiah 4:4). The prophet himself experienced this when he stood before God, he responded, "Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips... (Isaiah 6:5). The angel then brought a "live coal" (burning coal) from the altar of God and touched his lips and said, "Lo, this hath touched thy lips; and thine iniquity is taken away, and thy sin purged (v7).

There is a fire from God that cleanses from all defilement. Even after forgiveness of sin, there can remain the defilement of past sin.

Axehead

 

[Stan]

Ok, Stan, thank you for sharing that.

I want to talk about the Baptism of Fire. Christ came to make men righteous and this is more than just a legal reckoning. Righteousness is to be experienced as a work of the Holy Spirit. This is radical and immediate. How many of you can testify that when you were born of the spirit a radical and immediate change took place in your spirit and in your heart? No longer did you love or desire to sin. It seems all your motivations were changing. Now, you desired to please God and obey Him from the heart. If you sinned it was like someone stabbed you in the heart the pain was so bad from sinning against the Lord. You were moved to ask people for forgiveness and make reconciliation wherever possible with others. You were tender and sensitive to the Spirit as the love of God had been shed abroad in your heart. You truly were a New Creation, a Brand New Man. This is a work of the Spirit of God.

The Holy Spirit will come as a fire to purge you from all defilement as a knife to circumcise the heart. "Christ in You, the hope of Glory", is the Holy Spirit in you bringing forth His righteousness (Colossians 1:27).

The Scriptures speak of a purging of fire that comes by the Spirit. The emphasis today has been on "ye shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you" (Acts 1:8). However, the work of purity in sanctification is equally important. This work of the Spirit that brings cleansing from all defilement is described as "fire". John the Baptist spoke of this when he said, "he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:" (Matthew 3:11).

There is a righteousness broght forth by the purging of fire that cleanses one from all defilement. When the prophet saw the defilement of the daughters of Zion, "...the Lord...washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion...by the spirit of judgment and the spirit of burning" (Isaiah 4:4). The prophet himself experienced this when he stood before God, he responded, "Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips... (Isaiah 6:5). The angel then brought a "live coal" (burning coal) from the altar of God and touched his lips and said, "Lo, this hath touched thy lips; and thine iniquity is taken away, and thy sin purged (v7).

There is a fire from God that cleanses from all defilement. Even after forgiveness of sin, there can remain the defilement of past sin.

Axehead

Sorry but I don't see the phrase or concept "Baptism of Fire". Matthew 3:11 says "He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire."
I have seen some radical and immediate changes in peoples lives when they receive Jesus or when they receive the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. Nicky Cruz comes to mind. There does seem to be a direct link to how much a person was a slave to Satan, to how much he will be a slave to God. Paul's vehemence to Christian Jews made him into probably the greatest Apostle. Most of us are middle of the road human beings and as such we mostly suffer a life of mediocrity. The struggle is to PICK UP our CROSS daily, and follow Jesus. In some ways that is a lot harder than coming from a fanatical background of serving Satan and going into a fanatical life of serving Jesus. Those who do find great triumphs and hurt the enemy's cause, but it also becomes very easy to do it all in the flesh and forget who's slave they really are.

The LAW of reaping and sowing is one of God's basic and irrefutable laws. It does not cease to have effect after we are saved. In some cases, due to God's immense mercy, it can be made nill, however that is totally up to GOD, not man.
When we accept Jesus and His redemption, our sins are totally paid for and covered. 1 Peter 3:18 (NIV) There is nothing more required at that point, to receive salvation. IT IS DONE, just as Jesus said on the cross. The Law of reaping and sowing MAY still effect our lives, but there is no remaining defilement. We are totally cleansed when we are BORN AGAIN.

 

[Axehead]

Isaiah the prophet asks this question: "...Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings? He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil; (Isa 33:14-15)

Only by the purging of fire will one be able to live with the fire of His holiness.

In the NT we have this exhortation: "Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. (2Co 7:1)

The sanctification of the Lord is complete. The promise is that "the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Thess 5:23)

Again, "For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication: That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour; Not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God:" (1Th 4:3-5)

So, the question is: "If there is an experience of sanctification by the Holy Spirit, how does one receive it?"

The key is CONSECRATION.

The exhortation from Paul is: “I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.” (Rom 12:1)

The act of consecration involving your body corresponds to the burnt offering of the First Covenant. Here the fire and the altar received the body of the sacrifice. The rule of the burnt offering was that the offering had to be left on the altar until it was totally consumed by the fire (Lev 6:9,10). Here is the answer to the question of why many have never experienced the baptism of fire. A lack of consecration limits the work of the Holy Spirit in sanctification.

The Holy Spirit comes in to deal with the mixture in our lives and as long as mixture remains, evil has an entrance in our lives. Mixture is contrary to righteousness; it is a source of defilement. The fire of God brings forth a purging from all defilement. But you must consecrate yourself upon the altar of God (Rom 12;1). This consecration is always followed by the purging fire of the Holy Spirit.

Mal 3:1 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.

Mal 3:2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

2Co 7:1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.


Axehead

 

[us2are1]

Sorry but I don't see the phrase or concept "Baptism of Fire". Matthew 3:11 says "He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire."
I have seen some radical and immediate changes in peoples lives when they receive Jesus or when they receive the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. Nicky Cruzcomes to mind. There does seem to be a direct link to how much a person was a slave to Satan, to how much he will be a slave to God. Paul's vehemence to Christian Jews made him into probably the greatest Apostle. Most of us are middle of the road human beings and as such we mostly suffer a life of mediocrity. The struggle is to PICK UP our CROSS daily, and follow Jesus. In some ways that is a lot harder than coming from a fanatical background of serving Satan and going into a fanatical life of serving Jesus. Those who do find great triumphs and hurt the enemy's cause, but it also becomes very easy to do it all in the flesh and forget who's slave they really are.

The LAW of reaping and sowing is one of God's basic and irrefutable laws. It does not cease to have effect after we are saved. In some cases, due to God's immense mercy, it can be made nill, however that is totally up to GOD, not man.
When we accept Jesus and His redemption, our sins are totally paid for and covered. 1 Peter 3:18 (NIV) There is nothing more required at that point, to receive salvation. IT IS DONE, just as Jesus said on the cross. The Law of reaping and sowing MAY still effect our lives, but there is no remaining defilement. We are totally cleansed when we are BORN AGAIN.

The baptism of fire is the one you don't want. The baptism of the Holy Spirit is what you need to ask God for.

11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
12 His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."









.

 

[dragonfly]

Hi Son of Man,

Are you saying 'the baptism of fire' is not a function of the Holy Spirit, or, that baptism in the Holy Spirit deals with the dross in our lives as well as empowering us to bear the fruit of the Spirit and exercise the gifts of the Spirit, and, to walk in the Spirit not fulfilling the lusts of the flesh?


Hi Axehead,

The key is CONSECRATION.

The exhortation from Paul is: “I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.” (Rom 12:1)

The act of consecration involving your body corresponds to the burnt offering of the First Covenant. Here the fire and the altar received the body of the sacrifice. The rule of the burnt offering was that the offering had to be left on the altar until it was totally consumed by the fire (Lev 6:9,10).

The altar represents the cross.

 

[Stan]

Isaiah the prophet asks this question: "...Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings? He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil; (Isa 33:14-15)

Only by the purging of fire will one be able to live with the fire of His holiness.

In the NT we have this exhortation: "Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. (2Co 7:1)

The sanctification of the Lord is complete. The promise is that "the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Thess 5:23)

Again, "For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication: That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour; Not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God:" (1Th 4:3-5)

So, the question is: "If there is an experience of sanctification by the Holy Spirit, how does one receive it?"

The key is CONSECRATION.

The exhortation from Paul is: “I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.” (Rom 12:1)

The act of consecration involving your body corresponds to the burnt offering of the First Covenant. Here the fire and the altar received the body of the sacrifice. The rule of the burnt offering was that the offering had to be left on the altar until it was totally consumed by the fire (Lev 6:9,10). Here is the answer to the question of why many have never experienced the baptism of fire. A lack of consecration limits the work of the Holy Spirit in sanctification.

The Holy Spirit comes in to deal with the mixture in our lives and as long as mixture remains, evil has an entrance in our lives. Mixture is contrary to righteousness; it is a source of defilement. The fire of God brings forth a purging from all defilement. But you must consecrate yourself upon the altar of God (Rom 12;1). This consecration is always followed by the purging fire of the Holy Spirit.

Mal 3:1 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.

Mal 3:2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

2Co 7:1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.


Axehead

I'm sorry again Axehead but not only is Isaiah NOT pertinent to this OP, 2 Cor 7:1 is more accurately translated in the NIV as; Therefore, since we have these promises, dear friends, let us purify ourselves from everything that contaminates body and spirit, perfecting holiness out of reverence for God. This is not quite the same as what you are implying or asserting. We can't CLEANSE ourselves, only God can and He does so through Jesus. The Holy Spirit does NOT add to that cleansing, it is done once for all by Jesus based on the shedding of His blood. 1 John 1:7; But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin.

The reason why many have not experienced the baptism of fire, as you call it, is because there isn't one. Going through trials by fire is NOT the same thing. You are trying to invent a spiritual event that has no foundation in scripture or life. This begs the question, what has been your experience? Do you feel consecrated to God?
I quote again John 16:7-8; Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. [sup] [/sup]When he comes, he will prove the world to be in the wrong about sin and righteousness and judgment:

I suggest we ALL look to the Holy Spirit to show us what is wrong and what is right. That is why He came to be with us, isn't it?

 

[us2are1]

Hi Son of Man,

Are you saying 'the baptism of fire' is not a function of the Holy Spirit, or, that baptism in the Holy Spirit deals with the dross in our lives as well as empowering us to bear the fruit of the Spirit and exercise the gifts of the Spirit, and, to walk in the Spirit not fulfilling the lusts of the flesh?

The baptism in the Holy Spirit is a different baptism than the baptism by fire spoken of by John the baptist. The baptism by fire is the one that burns up the chaff.

11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
12 His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."

The cloven tongues of fire on the day of penticost are not a baptism but the effects of that particular baptism in the holy Spirit.

 

[dragonfly]

Hi Son of Man,

Acts 2:3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost...'

The cloven tongues of fire on the day of penticost are not a baptism but the effects of that particular baptism in the holy Spirit.

I have heard it preached that what John Baptist said is, 'He will baptise you with the Holy Spirit or with fire'.

Please could you explain more of what you mean about 'the cloven tongues of fire' being 'not a baptism but the effects of that particular baptism'?

 

[Axehead]

Hi Son of Man,

Are you saying 'the baptism of fire' is not a function of the Holy Spirit, or, that baptism in the Holy Spirit deals with the dross in our lives as well as empowering us to bear the fruit of the Spirit and exercise the gifts of the Spirit, and, to walk in the Spirit not fulfilling the lusts of the flesh?

Hi Axehead,

The altar represents the cross.

Amen! The altar does represent the cross.

Additionally, we are not talking about more religious activity and works here but a receptivity to the Holy Spirit on our part. More independent resolve and more commitment and more activity on our part is preached sermon after sermon. While they call for "more faith", and "more faithfulness", the calls for performance are effective as New Year's resolutions.

Our independent activity is not what abiding in Christ is and will not appropriate any of His Life. There is too much emphasis today on identifying our own sin and overcoming it and not enough emphasis on focusing on Christ and abiding in Him. It is God by His Spirit that will identify false attitudes in us and we are not to be preoccupied with sin, weaknesses and carnal patterns but rather Christ. (Heb 12:2).

The cross, applied in our own strength and with our "own understanding", only results in religious activity that causes one to focus on self instead of Christ.

Axehead

 

[dragonfly]

Hebrews 2:8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under His feet. For in that He put all things in subjection under Him He left nothing that is not put under Him. But now we see not yet all things put under Him. 9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that He by the grace of God should taste death for every man. 10 For both He that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one; for which cause He is not ashamed to call them brethren.

 

[Axehead]

Hebrews 2:8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under His feet. For in that He put all things in subjection under Him He left nothing that is not put under Him. But now we see not yet all things put under Him. 9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that He by the grace of God should taste death for every man. 10 For both He that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one; for which cause He is not ashamed to call them brethren.

Amen, it is the Lord Jesus Christ that sanctifies us.

John 17:19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

Tit 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

John 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

Heb 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
Heb 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
Heb 4:11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

 

[us2are1]

Hi Son of Man,

Acts 2:3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost...'



I have heard it preached that what John Baptist said is, 'He will baptise you with the Holy Spirit or with fire'.

Please could you explain more of what you mean about 'the cloven tongues of fire' being 'not a baptism but the effects of that particular baptism'?

John the baptist made it clear that He was talking about two different baptisms in the same sentence. The explanation follows in the same scripture. The baptism of the Holy Spirit is for the sons of God (the wheat) and the baptism of fire is for the chaff (the tares)

11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
12 His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."

 

[Stan]

Hi Son of Man,

Acts 2:3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost...'



I have heard it preached that what John Baptist said is, 'He will baptise you with the Holy Spirit or with fire'.

Please could you explain more of what you mean about 'the cloven tongues of fire' being 'not a baptism but the effects of that particular baptism'?

DF, the key in this verse is the word AS or LIKE. They were NOT actual tongues of fire.

I would like to see a verse where John the Baptist actually says OR. The fire is what believers like Stephen received as they DIED for their faith. The word is obviously not used in it's ordinary literal sense, and as Vine's states; it is symbolic of that which tries the faith of saints, producing what will glorify the Lord;
Is there ANYTHING that tries the faith of the saints more than persecution and that results in death? I think not.

 

[Axehead]

The Circumcision of the Heart

Righteousness must be found in the heart of man. Jesus said, " For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man. (Matt 15:19-20)

Again the Lord emphasizes the heart when He said, "Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God." (Matt 5:8)

The heart is the foundation for all desire. From it flow the issues of life.

"Keep thy heart with all diligence; for out of it are the issues of life." (Pro 4:23)

Whatever our desires are, so will be our life. The woman in the Garden looked, desired and experienced. Since that time, man has built his life around desire. Desire became the basis for sin.

"And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat." (Gen 3:6)

Sin worked through desire and sin still works through desire to gratify our senses and bodily appetites. The body itself is not evil of itself; however, its natural desires have under the law of sin and death. Therefore, it is referred to as "body of sin" or "body of this death" (Romans 6:6, 7:24).

Indwelling sin produces desires of every kind. "But sin...produced in me coveting of every kind" (Romans 7:8). It is the nature of sin to desire, covet, and lust. Sin is desire that is exploited for its own pleasure. These desires coming through the body are called "flesh". However, it is more than flesh, the soul also enters into sinful desire, and that is where we get the term "fleshly" or "in the flesh". For one the soul tastes the pleasure of sin coming through the body, there is created an unquenchable desire for sin. Man's soul refusing restraint becomes enslaved to the body and its passions.

"For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death." (Rom 7:5)

Sin is an ever increasing desire for an ever diminishing return (pleasure).

Axehead

 

[Axehead]

Circumcision of the Heart, continued.
Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Notice that all the works of the flesh work through desires coming from the soul. The world is built upon "the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes and the pride of life" (1 John 2:15). Lust is the motivation of the world that enters into every area of life.

What is the answer for man's sin. Is it religion? A very religious man concluded, "self-made religion and self-abasement and severe treatment of the body are of no value against fleshly indulgence" (Col 2:23 ASV). Mahatma Buddha thought he had discovered a great truth. If he could come to a place void of desire then he would be free from pain and evil. Consequently, he deserted his wife and new-born son to separate himself from all desires of life.

Jesus teaches us that righteousness is not the absence of desire, but rather, it is righteous desires that make one righteous. As a man, Jesus had natural desires, yet He was without sin. If He was tempted in all ways as a man, what kept Him from sin? He was found righteous because He subjected every desire to on consuming desire.

In the wilderness after 40 days without food, the greatest desire a man could have would be to eat. He remained righeous because He subjected this strong natural desire to one desire. From the temple He was tempted with the desire for recognition, a strong soulish desire; yet He subjected that desire to one desire. From the heights of the world He was tempted to save Himself. What stronger desire does a man have than self-preservation? Yet He subjected that desire to one desire. What was the one consuming passion that kept sin from coming in? The one consuming passion that was stronger than any desire of His soul or body was to please the Father. All His desires were subjected to this one desire. Perfection is not the absence of desire and neither is righteousness found in a vacuum. Righteous desires within the heart bring forth righteousness. Righteousness must come from the heart.

We know that no man can change his heart, so how does one come to have righteous desires? To be clearer, no man can change the desires of his heart. He may go through many techniques, but sin will still remain working through lust. Remember, sin is always contrary to righteousness. Earlier in the thread it was established that evil comes through lawlessness. There is no restraint, lawlessness lives for its own pleasure. Lawlessness is sin working through lust.

The answer is the Holy Spirit. He has come as a knife to circumcise the heart. Under the New Covenant, "circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit" (Romans 2:29). All the desires of the FLESH must be cut away from the heart, even as the priest would cut away the foreskin of flesh from a male baby as a seal of the first covenant. Only the Holy Spirit can penetrate the heart of man, for He comes as a sharp twoedged, "piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart" (Heb 4:12). All unrighteous desires must be cut away or else the heart will turn away from God.

One cannot love God with all his heart if his desires are not toward God.

God cannot establish righteousness in our hearts if we have a divided heart. This is the reason that God has commanded us to "love the Lord our God with all our heart and with all our soul and with all our might" (Deut 6:5). Loving God is not an option, it is necessary for righteousness' sake. The divided heart turns away from God and from His righteousness. Only the Holy Spirit can deal with the desires of the soul by circumcising the heart and it is through this circumcision that our hearts are made whole.

God is looking for hearts that are completely His. "For the eyes of the LORD run to and fro throughout the whole earth, to shew himself strong in the behalf of them whose heart is perfect toward him" completely His - (2Ch 16:9)

God is not looking for sacrifice and performance and neither is He impressed by religious words. God is looking for righteousness in the heart. Only the desire to love Him and to do His will above all else will join your heart to Him. This is the desire that should consume us.

Mat 15:8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.

Mat 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Axehead

 

[rand]

I'm sorry mr. Axe.

I fear you have no idea what righteousness is, nor the depth of God's love. To love the Lord with all our heart is not one of the ten commandments. You said God can not esstablish righteousness in our hearts if our heart is divided. Is there a verse that says this or is this just part of your theology? I read in the Bible that there is righteousness to all who believe (in Christ), but no mention of the condition of our heart.

Remember, grace comes before repentance. Grace teaches us to say no to ungodlyness.

 

[Stan]

I'm sorry mr. Axe.

I fear you have no idea what righteousness is, nor the depth of God's love. To love the Lord with all our heart is not one of the ten commandments. You said God can not esstablish righteousness in our hearts if our heart is divided. Is there a verse that says this or is this just part of your theology? I read in the Bible that there is righteousness to all who believe (in Christ), but no mention of the condition of our heart.

Remember, grace comes before repentance. Grace teaches us to say no to ungodlyness.

Rand, the Bible DOES say this. I think you should read Matthew 22:37-40, where Jesus says; “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[sup] [/sup]This is the first and greatest commandment. [sup] [/sup]And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[sup] [/sup]All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

When we accept Jesus, His righteousness is imparted to us. The duality of our carnal and spiritual nature is lifelong and it is the nature we feed that determines what nature becomes dominant in our lives. It is a daily, cross bearing, life long journey.

 

[Xian Pugilist]

Righteousness is simply "right acts".

The word "Acts" in that definition is inherent/intrinsic to the word Agapao. You can't agapao without the acts. (leave out extreme examples/deathbed conversions, etc...)

Gal 5:6 shows a view of one who is Righteous doing righteousness. As does the last parable in matt 25. Would you agree?

I believe righteousness is the basic quality of God’s character and His character is to be formed in man.

For the righteous LORD loveth righteousness; his countenance doth behold the upright. Psalm 11:7

The formation of His righteousness does not come instantaneously. For this reason Jesus said, 'But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.' Matt 6:33

Those of the kingdom should experience a daily 'hunger and thirst for righteousness', (Matt 5:6).

The satisfying of this hunger comes as we receive this righteousness into our lives. Righteousness must become our life.

If we seek His kingdom we must seek His righteousness, for the foundation of God’s kingdom is righteousness.

I see the extension of God’s character through His authority. 'For the kingdom of God is righteousness… (Romans 14:17) You could say the scope of His righteousness is the scope of His authority. Or one could also say His authority establishes His righteousness. Righteousness involves the kingdom of God.

What is this righteousness that man is to seek? What is this righteousness that is the foundation of His kingdom and the basic nature of God? I see in the Scriptures that there are 3 revelations of righteousness. The first is found in creation, the second in the formation of a nation and the third in Jesus Christ the Son of God. In each of these a distinctive aspect of God’s righteousness is revealed.

First, let’s look at creation. God brought the world forth on a principle that established righteousness in everything He made. An order was established in the beginning, that has maintained life in exactly the same form as when created. God’s nature was revealed by what He made. (physical evidence)

For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Rom 1:20

God brought forth everything on a principle of separation establishing an order in creation that preserved all He made. Separation is the first principle of righteousness. On the first day of creation God brought forth the light that separated darkness from darkness and it was the first day. On the second day, God separated the waters from the waters and the earth appeared. And on each succeeding day in all that He made, life was separated from life in all its forms. This is righteousness coming through order.

There is order in righteousness that maintains life. Because God is righteous, the sun comes up every morning, the earth maintains its orbit around the sun, the clouds water the earth and the earth blossoms. Because God is righteous, there are no monsters, no crossing over of life forms. Kind produces kind and all is good, just as it was when created. God set everything in its order, so life was established. This is righteousness.

Mixture is contrary to righteousness. In all creation mixture was not found except for a tree called 'the tree of knowledge of good and evil,' which became the place of man’s fall. Evil comes through mixture.Here one finds the first principle of evil. The incorporation of evil is sin. It is the nature of sin to break down order and cause disintegration. All kinds of disorder come until all the life support systems of one’s life are destroyed. The working of evil is always death.

It is mixture of good and evil that destroys righteousness. Evil can look good, but when evil comes in, it destroys all that righteousness has made. How many of God’s people are feeding upon mixture? The tree could be a book, a TV, a movie, a magazine, a philosophy or a relationship. The world today is full of mixture. It will excite the flesh but result in death for the soul.

This is a very big point and can be readily identified today. Through mixture one loses the discernment of evil. In looking upon evil, one comes to accept evil; to experience evil, one loses the discernment of evil; and when discernment of evil is lost, evil has overcome. Not following the first principle of righteousness allows evil to enter (first principle of righteousness is SEPARATION). A prophet pronounced judgment upon a nation because they had lost discernment.

Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter! Isa 5:20

God’s people must separate themselves from evil and draw the line between the clean and the unclean, between the holy and the profane. Fathers must teach their children to draw this line. The mixture of evil must be eliminated from the home and from the church. How much one allows the principle of separation to work in his life will determine how much God’s righteousness will work in his life.

Righteousness brings order and peace.

And the work of righteousness shall be peace; and the effect of righteousness quietness and assurance for ever. And my people shall dwell in a peaceable habitation, and in sure dwellings, and in quiet resting places;
Isa 32:17-18

Here is God’s call to righteousness.

Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? 2Co 6:14

And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 2Co 6:16

Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, 2Co 6:17

And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty. 2Co 6:18

May the Lord give us light and understanding,

Axehead