Can You Be Righteous

[Axehead]

I'm not trying, I DO understand. As long as we do not claim to be righteous in any was I agree to what you say here as well.
We can NEVER be righteous, but we can and do have Christ's righteousness when we accept Him.




Well like a lot of man-made analogies, your's fails in actually being relative. Paul is speaking TO believers, not unbelievers. He is explaining how the OT got it wrong and how, in Christ we get it right. Verse 22; This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile.
We receive it, we don't become it.

Jesus is made unto us righeousness and sanctification...
1Co_1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

Whereby we are commanded to sin not (awakening to the righteousness of God within us).
1Co_15:34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God (Some don't understand the walk of righteousness and holiness): I speak this to your shame.

And through this process, if we continue in faith, "we might be made the righteousness of God in Him."
2Co_5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made (a process) the righteousness of God in him.

The Word commands us to yield to the Lord, and to abide in Him, that we may awake to righteousness (be righteous) and sin not.

This is not a suggestion and that is why Paul is speaking this to the shame of many. Those who have the Holy Spirit dwelling in them, should know this.

Interestingly, many in the world, outside of Christ, know what a Christian should be more than many who call themselves "Christians".

Axehead

 

[dragonfly]

2Co_5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made (a process) the righteousness of God in him.

The Word commands us to yield to the Lord, and to abide in Him, that we may awake to righteousness (be righteous) and sin not.

This is not a suggestion and that is why Paul is speaking this to the shame of many. Those who have the Holy Spirit dwelling in them, should know this.

Hi Axehead,

The analogy of being a branch in the true Vine seems pertinent here, in that we know Jesus Christ was not literal vine plant in the manner of that woody object which when planted and rooted in the ground, produces leaves, blossom and eventually fruit, but He was a unique Man who was also God, who took upon Himself in His form as a man, 'the likeness of sinful flesh'. And when after His death He was raised from the grave, He no longer bore 'the likeness of sinful flesh'; He had a resurrection 'body'. (Following on from my post # 120 on p4.) It is into His resurrection body, those who have died in Him are grafted, by the Holy Spirit. This is

Ephesians 1:19, 20b '... the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead...'

It is the Father who, by the spirit of the adoption of sons (the Holy Spirit Rom 8:15) raises us to life in Christ, now. This is possible only as 'I' have appropriated His death as my own, that 'I' begin to be able to experience the power of His resurrection, now. But 'I' do begin to experience all of His resurrection life (now) because 'I' have appropriated all of His death, and therefore, despite the fallenness of the flesh of my first birth, the life that I live in it is the life of the resurrection of Jesus Christ, and I can say with the apostle:

I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ lives in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. Gal 2:20.

Truly, this is the step of faith which Paul had in mind when he wrote: For with the heart man believes to righteousness...' Rom 10:10a

It is not a merely notional righteousness, is it? (Rhetorical!) Rather it's the righteousness of the Son of God in us in spiritual reality. We are back to power and nature of the life of the true Vine being manifest in the branches of the true Vine - us.


Stan, what you are expressing is a common fallacy in Christendom, which betrays their unbelief of that into which faith is intended to bring us. The 'faith of the Son of God' is the faith which Jesus Christ had, despite His physical body being 'in the likeness of sinful flesh'.

I fully accept that my 'sinful flesh' is unable to 'live' 'the life of the Son of God'. That's why I died in Him - so that I would no longer be in bondage to 'my sinful flesh'. 'I' am not 'my flesh'.

For, if it is impossible for God to distinguish and divide between 'I' and 'my flesh', then 'I' cannot be saved at all!

Even death will not release 'me' to Him.

But, the power of 'the word' of God, which is 'sharper than any two-edged sword', is that He is able to divide even between the soul and the spirit and between the thoughts of, and, the intents of, my heart. Romans 2:16, Mark 7:20 - 23.

This is the God into whom we have come in relationship, through the power of Christ's death to break the power of sin, and His propitiation for the sins of the world, to whom 'all things [are] naked and opened'. Heb 4:13b.

1 Corinthians 8:6 But to us [there is but] one God, the Father, of whom [are] all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom [are] all things, and we by him.

 

[Episkopos]

Hi Axehead,

The analogy of being a branch in the true Vine seems pertinent here, in that we know Jesus Christ was not literal vine plant in the manner of that woody object which when planted and rooted in the ground, produces leaves, blossom and eventually fruit, but He was a unique Man who was also God, who took upon Himself in His form as a man, 'the likeness of sinful flesh'. And when after His death He was raised from the grave, He no longer bore 'the likeness of sinful flesh'; He had a resurrection 'body'. (Following on from my post # 120 on p4.) It is into His resurrection body, those who have died in Him are grafted, by the Holy Spirit. This is

Ephesians 1:19, 20b '... the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead...'

It is the Father who, by the spirit of the adoption of sons (the Holy Spirit Rom 8:15) raises us to life in Christ, now. This is possible only as 'I' have appropriated His death as my own, that 'I' begin to be able to experience the power of His resurrection, now. But 'I' do begin to experience all of His resurrection life (now) because 'I' have appropriated all of His death, and therefore, despite the fallenness of the flesh of my first birth, the life that I live in it is the life of the resurrection of Jesus Christ, and I can say with the apostle:

I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ lives in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. Gal 2:20.

Truly, this is the step of faith which Paul had in mind when he wrote: For with the heart man believes to righteousness...' Rom 10:10a

It is not a merely notional righteousness, is it? (Rhetorical!) Rather it's the righteousness of the Son of God in us in spiritual reality. We are back to power and nature of the life of the true Vine being manifest in the branches of the true Vine - us.


Stan, what you are expressing is a common fallacy in Christendom, which betrays their unbelief of that into which faith is intended to bring us. The 'faith of the Son of God' is the faith which Jesus Christ had, despite His physical body being 'in the likeness of sinful flesh'.

I fully accept that my 'sinful flesh' is unable to 'live' 'the life of the Son of God'. That's why I died in Him - so that I would no longer be in bondage to 'my sinful flesh'. 'I' am not 'my flesh'.

For, if it is impossible for God to distinguish and divide between 'I' and 'my flesh', then 'I' cannot be saved at all!

Even death will not release 'me' to Him.

But, the power of 'the word' of God, which is 'sharper than any two-edged sword', is that He is able to divide even between the soul and the spirit and between the thoughts of, and, the intents of, my heart. Romans 2:16, Mark 7:20 - 23.

This is the God into whom we have come in relationship, through the power of Christ's death to break the power of sin, and His propitiation for the sins of the world, to whom 'all things [are] naked and opened'. Heb 4:13b.

1 Corinthians 8:6 But to us [there is but] one God, the Father, of whom [are] all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom [are] all things, and we by him.

Very good post!

 

[dragonfly]

Very good post!

Thank you, brother.

 

[us2are1]

The devils can never be righteous and even they accept him. But by following Christ those who know his gospel and enter into his plan of salvation are saved. It is by doing what Christ said. No one is saved by speaking words into the air. That is the modern gospel of witchcraft dreamed up by devils to fleece God's sheep.

If you find it hard to follow Christ's righteousness which makes you righteous. then ask God for the Spirit of his son to help you. Keep asking until you receive. The keep asking is for you not for Him and then again don't forget the parable of the store owner.

 

[Stan]

Hi Stan,
Thank you for the distinctions you have explained from the doctrine you've been taught. These distinctions are different from what I've been taught, and, from what I've experienced. For instance, until I was a Christian, I did not think Matt 6:33 applied to me, because until I was a Christian, I couldn't make any sense of scripture.

Admittedly, because it is Jesus saying it, it is really directed to the Jews, but to Jews that did NOT recognize what or WHO the righteousness of God was.

The other thing which strikes me from the points you made, is that the promises of the New Covenant are all reserved for the next world, rather than this. It seems you do not expect to be changed by receiving a new heart and a new spirit, and you do not believe you have resurrection life, now. All is watiing to happen in the future.

I did expect to change when I gave my life to Jesus and I have, to a great degree. I must wrestle with my carnal nature every day, which is MY cross. I am a change man from when I was saved, even though I was only 17 at the time. I have grown in Christ and daily He changes and refines me, just as He promised to do. I have experienced the new covenant as far as God writing His laws on my heart. I do not believe however that the corruptible can be made incorruptible until we see Jesus return for His church.
I do not believe we lose our carnal nature, as Paul clearly shows, but I do believe that I must decrease and He must increase as Paul also taught. There are of course future events that will ONLY happen when Jesus returns. The resurrection from the grave is one of them. There is not resurrection of the soul. Resurrection ONLY pertains to the BODY.

For instance, regarding water baptism by immersion, I would first state that when Jesus was baptised, He pre-figured His death and resurrection for us, and the baptism of the Holy Spirit (dove descending), so that when we rise from the waters of baptism, we expect to walk in the newness of life which He obtained for us by His actual death - which broke the power of sin - and His actual resurrection, (which proves to us His absolute conquest of (sin and) death). If we are no longer dead in trespasses and sins because we have become children of obedience and received His Spirit, then His life in us is far more powerful than that of our first birth. What you have written focuses strongly on the failures of the fallen nature. But if our fallen nature is dead in Him - the method God chose to free us from it - then we too are free(d) from sin. Rom 6:7 We are no longer bound (in bondage) to our 'old man'(nature). We do receive a new heart and a new spirit, by the circumcision of Christ, and, we walk in His life, which is new to us. Otherwise there could be no victory over our past sins, and no healing of spirit or restoration of soul - which we do experience as part of being saved.
Isn't this why a new heart is essential? It's our heart which is changed through faith, repentance and the Holy Spirit's presence.

As I believe that water baptism is representative of our acceptance of Jesus' death and resurrection, it does represent what will happen. It was that way for Jesus. He did it to fulfill ALL righteousness. The Reformation Study Bible puts it this way regarding Matthew 3;

3:13–15 John was reluctant to baptize Jesus because he recognized that Jesus was the one person who had no need for repentance. But in order for “all righteousness” to be fulfilled, Jesus had to be identified with His people as the bearer of their sins (2 Cor. 5:21). Ultimately John’s baptism pointed to Jesus, for only Jesus’ death on a cross, which He called a “baptism” (Luke 12:50), could take away sins. Jesus’ identification with His people included His baptism and death, His anointment with the Spirit, and His victory over temptation. See “The Baptism of Jesus” at Mark 1:9.​

We are set free from the law of sin and death, and our sins have been forgiven and cleansed by His blood, but we can still sin and I for one, do sin. I am NOT a slave of it and I am not ruled by it but it is there. 1 John 1:7; But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.
Being purified is an ongoing process. It does not happen instantaneously, at least not for most. Look at what 1John 3:2 states; Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. We strive to emulate Jesus, but we will only be like Him when He returns, not before.
Read 1John 2:1; My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. The victory over sin is His alone. We have to rely on Him fully. We don't stop relying on Jesus when we receive salvation. We stop when we die.
This makes it clear to me that Jesus' sacrifice is for ALL sin for ALL time, not just up to the time we accept Him. John acknowledges that sin will happen but it is covered by our advocate. He only becomes our advocate when He becomes our Saviour.

 

[dragonfly]

Hi Stan,

Thanks for your comprehensive reply. I've got two pressing questions in light of this statement:

There is not resurrection of the soul. Resurrection ONLY pertains to the BODY.

In that case, what is it that died in Paul, when he was crucified with Christ?

Where did Paul's 'old man' (Rom 6:6) begin and end?

 

[Stan]

Jesus is made unto us righeousness and sanctification...
1Co_1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

Whereby we are commanded to sin not (awakening to the righteousness of God within us).
1Co_15:34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God (Some don't understand the walk of righteousness and holiness): I speak this to your shame.

And through this process, if we continue in faith, "we might be made the righteousness of God in Him."
2Co_5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made (a process) the righteousness of God in him.

The Word commands us to yield to the Lord, and to abide in Him, that we may awake to righteousness (be righteous) and sin not.

This is not a suggestion and that is why Paul is speaking this to the shame of many. Those who have the Holy Spirit dwelling in them, should know this.

Interestingly, many in the world, outside of Christ, know what a Christian should be more than many who call themselves "Christians".

Axehead

1 Cor 1:30; It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. Then v31 states; Therefore, as it is written: “Let the one who boasts boast in the Lord.”
Nothing to do with us, but Christ in us.
1 Cor 15:34; Come back to your senses as you ought, and stop sinning; for there are some who are ignorant of God—I say this to your shame. This was caused by influence of the Sadducees that were getting saved.
This relates to the reason Paul wrote this chapter. It is about the resurrection and the teaching that was happening against it. He quotes a well known phrase that was being lived by some who had begun to believe the resurrection was not going to happen. In v32, Paul writes; “Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die.”[sup] [/sup]
You've taken this totally out of context Axehead.

2 Cor 5:21; God made Him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God.
Just as God made Jesus sin for us, He made Jesus righteousness for us. We will(future tense) become God's righteousness, when we inherit Eternal Life. I don't see a command here, I see teaching and as Paul always did, it states an end goal, the prize. Something to strive for, NOT something to be attained in this life.

Those who do actually have and have experienced the infilling of the Holy Spirit, KNOW the difference between our spirit and God's. We know what it is to experience God and how far we are from His righteousness.

I find it interesting from a humbleness perspective, at how many Christians want to claim righteousness as theirs, when the Bible clearly shows it is not. I suggest reading Luke 18:9-14 to see the perspective Jesus had about those who humbly accept and acknowledge their actual position. This is an old message, taught in Isaiah 66:2; "This is the one I esteem: he who is humble and contrite in spirit, and trembles at my word."

THINK ABOUT IT.

Hi Stan,

Thanks for your comprehensive reply. I've got two pressing questions in light of this statement:



In that case, what is it that died in Paul, when he was crucified with Christ?

Where did Paul's 'old man' (Rom 6:6) begin and end?

What verse are you referring to?

Well it ended in Acts 9, it began when He first sinned.

I really do appreciate a more direct approach rather than a setup for an ambush.

 

[joshhuntnm]

2 Corinthians 5:21 (NIV)
[sup]21 [/sup] God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

 

[Episkopos]

2 Corinthians 5:21 (NIV)
[sup]21 [/sup] God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

2 Corinthians 5:21 (NIV)
[sup]21 [/sup] God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.



The reality of that verse hinges on those 2 words. We show we are actually in Him when we walk exactly as He walked.

 

[Axehead]

I have postponed my next installment because of all the great discussions so far. Many thanks to all for working through this with me. I have been learning a great deal.

2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

What is this power that they have denied but the power of Christ to change us, within. There is this philosophy that has existed since the Reformation that man can only reckon himself righteous and not be changed internally in any way.

Here is what that "power" is.

2Pe 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him (not head knowledge) that hath called us to glory and virtue: (He has called us to virtue IN THIS LIFE).

Protestants have adamantly insisted that a Christian cannot be "made" or "become" righteous or godly or changed in any way.

Martin Luther said, "The Christian is simultaneously both (extrinisically) righteous and (intrinsically) a sinner." So, outward we are reckoned righteous but inward there is no change or hope of change. Still just a sinner.

I posted this quote in "Christ-Like", but let me post it again.

Andreas [background=yellow]Osiander[/background] (1498-1552) was an early ally of Martin Luther in the Protestant Reformation, but differed from Luther on the subject of “justification.” Osiander believed that the righteousness of a believer was accomplished, not just by objective imputation, but by the subjective indwelling of the living Christ – that the meaning of the Greek dikaiosune could legitimately mean “to make righteous.”Osiander was eventually repudiated by both Martin Luther and John Calvin, and relegated to the blacklist of Protestant heretics. To this day Protestants are extremely afraid of his concept of an indwelling participation in the life of Christ.

Why? Is the question.

Martin Luther - “The Christian is simultaneously both (extrinsically) righteous and (intrinsically) sinner.”
D. Martyn Lloyd-Jones - “Justification makes no actual change in us; it is a declaration. The Christian is not a good man; he is a vile wretch saved by the grace of God.”
Alister McGrath - “Protestant justification involves the alien righteousness of Christ imputed to the believer, external to him, not located in him, or in any way belonging to him.”

How is a Protestant Christian to live? These objective benefits have no affect on who we are, or how we live. The best he can do is to “reckon” that God has “reckoned” him “righteous” via a “positive thinking” process.

Post-reformation Catholic theologians chided the Protestants:

The Reformation "Threw out the baby with the bathwater". In an effort to distance themselves from the Roman Catholic Church (and justifiably so), they went to the other extreme of denying any idea that one could be changed into the "likeness" of Christ in this life. Because if a Protestant Christian were ever to act righteously, the Protestants would have to attribute such to ‘works,’ for his theology makes no provision for any subjective divine life (Christ dwelling in the Christian and making them righteous, experientially).

"Union with Christ" has been vilified by the Enemy as Mysticism and Protestants liken anything connected to Catholicism as Mysticism. So, they have thrown out "Union with Christ", which is clearly spoken about in John 15 and many other places in the NT. Catholic Mysticism has nothing to do with the Scriptural teaching of Union with Christ.

And because of Protestant theology, this is precisely why it is so difficult to get through to them that God wants us to be righteous, and not just by objective imputation but by the subjective indwelling of Christ. The Bible is crystal clear about the subjective indwelling of Christ, yet it is sadly ignored as a dynamic within us to conform us to the image (character) of Christ in this life. There is nothing new under the sun and Paul himself struggled with this false doctrine, too. And that is why he said:

1Cor 15:34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

And what is this "Knowledge of God" that Peter is talking about? Again, we turn to 2 Peter 1:3.

2Pet 1:3 According as his divine power (the power spoken of in 2 Tim 3:5) hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

Col 1:10 That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God; (remember, this is not head knowledge or bible knowledge)

It is an intimate knowledge of Him that we attain through abiding (union with Christ) in Him, daily.

Alas, many reckon by faith what they think they will never be able to experience until they leave this world. But the scriptures are clear that if we do not experience Christ in this world, we will not see Him in the next. This is "denying the power thereof". What is their "reckoning" achieving for them? If they have no oil in their lamps like the foolish virgins then all their "reckoning" will be for nought. Jesus said to the 5 foolish virgins that "I don't know you. He said to the man in Matthew 7, who had a long resume of outward works, "I don't know you".

Consequently, many Scriptures are rendered meaningless to many Christians in this life as they rationalize that "those particular scriptures" that deal with godliness, righteousness and holiness in this life must only be talking about the next life.

This is how "doctrines of demons", nullify God's Word. They establish the premise that a certain truth cannot be true (at least in this life) which in turn causes one to "ignore" all the scriptures on these subjects. In this case, all of God's Word is ignored which deals with righteousness, holiness and godliness and no surprise as Satan would rather have the Christian believe that he is not righteous, cannot be righteous and never have any hope of being righteous, or changed within and not capable of walking in holiness. Satan does not want the individual Christian to walk in the power of godliness.

And this is how one is deceived into "walking after a form of godliness but denying the power thereof". The power of the indwelling Spirit to change one's heart will not happen if one is convinced it is not for this life.


Further, we read in 2 Peter 1 that Peter is telling us that we are "partaking of the Divine nature" and that His divine power hath given unto us EVERYTHING that pertaineth to life and godliness.

Does your Bible say that, "He has given us everything that pertains to godliness?" What does the Bible say that we should do to ensure that we are not barren or unfruitful? Peter says that we must give diligence to add to OUR faith, virtue, knowledge, temperance, patience and to all these things that belong to us and are part of us, GODLINESS.

Does your Bible say that these THINGS SHOULD BE IN YOU?

2Pe 1:5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
2Pe 1:6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
2Pe 1:7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
2Pe 1:8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Unlike, what Martin Luther said, these things don't appear to only be extrinsic to us. They don't seem to be objective and outward only, for how can kindness be outward if it is not inward, first? How can love (charity) be outward if we don't possess it within, first? If we are just filthy, vile sinners without any hope of being changed from within, then how can all these things be in us that Peter speaks of?

God is recovering truth in every generation and I believe with all my heart that He wants the Christian to know the power that gives one true godliness and He wants us to stop "denying the power", thereof, and awake to righteousness and sin not.

Do you have oil in your lamp? Do you know Him in the fellowship of His sufferings that you may know His resurrection life within you......NOW? Is the Cross operative in your life (the Crucified Life). This is not fleshly discipline and obedience of outward rules. It is an inward principle of the Spirit. The Law of of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus.

God bless everyone,
Axehead

 

[dragonfly]

Hi Stan,

me
Thanks for your comprehensive reply. I've got two pressing questions in light of this statement:

In that case, what is it that died in Paul, when he was crucified with Christ?

Where did Paul's 'old man' (Rom 6:6) begin and end?

you
What verse are you referring to?

Well it ended in Acts 9, it began when He first sinned.

I really do appreciate a more direct approach rather than a setup for an ambush.

I was not setting an 'ambush' for you. (I gave you Rom 6:6.) I was trying to understand how you are separating the parts of a human being in order to declare that only the body is raised from the dead, when it is clear from Paul's epistles that there is both 'newness of life' and 'the new man' in which to reside and walk. This suggests that something profound happens to both the soul and the spirit of a man when he is born again, receiving a new heart (seat of desire, spiritual senses, understanding, intellect, reason, and emotion), where the new spirit - the Holy Spirit - is received.

I confess I've never really considered whether when 'I' died in Christ my (old) soul died, because our memory - which undoubtedly has a physical base - and our past - which undoubtedly continues to affect our present physical reality - remain with us, and God heals them (if we let Him close enough), but your assertion that only the body will be resurrected prompted me to think about the question.

Really, I think I believe God is cleverer than that. Your reply about Paul (before and after Acts 9), in which I think you intend me to understand that only 'the sin' died in him when he was crucified with Christ, also gives food for thought, because normally when a person dies, the whole of them dies. Their body dies and their soul and spirit separate from it. Clearly, after we have been crucified with Christ we still have our original body, soul and spirit, but, as Oswald Chambers phrased it, 'the mainspring' of these has been altered. Now the life of Christ animates us.

2 Cor 5:21; God made Him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God.
Just as God made Jesus sin for us, He made Jesus righteousness for us. We will(future tense) become God's righteousness, when we inherit Eternal Life. I don't see a command here, I see teaching and as Paul always did, it states an end goal, the prize. Something to strive for, NOT something to be attained in this life.

I looked more closely at the meaning of 'might become' (in 2 Cor 5:21), and it's difficult to reconcile the Greek with your interpretation. I notice the word 'might' appears in other verses, and always with a verb, in this case 'be made'. It seems to be more imminent than after we die.


Mickelson's Enhanced Strong's

might be made

G1096 γίνομaι ginomai (ghin'-om-ai) v.

1. to cause to be ("gen"-erate)
2. (reflexively) to become (come into being)

{used with great latitude (literal, figurative, intensive, etc.)}
[a prolongation and middle voice form of a primary verb]

KJV: arise, be assembled, be(-come, -fall, -have self), be brought (to pass), (be) come (to pass), continue, be divided, draw, be ended, fall, be finished, follow, be found, be fulfilled, + God forbid, grow, happen, have, be kept, be made, be married, be ordained to be, partake, pass, be performed, be published, require, seem, be showed, X soon as it was, sound, be taken, be turned, use, wax, will, would, be wrought.


righteousness of God

G1343 δικaιοσύνη dikaiosune (dik-ai-os-oo'-nay) n.

1. equity (of character or act)
2. (specially) Christian justification

[from G1342]
KJV: righteousness
Root(s): G1342

[G1342 δίκaιος dikaios (dik'-ai-os) adj.

1. equitable (in character or act)
2. (by implication) innocent, holy
{absolutely or relatively}

[from G1349]
KJV: just, meet, right(-eous)
Root(s): G1349
Compare: G3741, G40, G2413]


in Him

G846 aὐτός autos (au-tos') p/p.

1. self

{reflexive pronoun used of the third person (alone or in the comparative G1438), and of the other persons (with the proper personal pronoun)}
[from the particle au (perhaps akin to the base of G109 through the idea of a baffling wind (backward))]
KJV: her, it(-self), one, the other, (mine) own, said, (self-), the) same, ((him-, my-, thy- )self, (your-)selves, she, that, their(-s), them(-selves), there(-at, - by, -in, -into, -of, -on, -with), they, (these) things, this (man), those, together, very, which
Compare: G848
See also: G1438, G109


I still cannot see how - if 'I' 'am saved' at all, in the present tense - 'I' (being crucified with Him) am not also righteous in Christ, now.

Hi Axehead,

Thanks for what you explained about Protestant thinking in your last post. I had never realised that Catholics teach something about 'union with Christ', as they seem to spend a great deal of time promoting their distance from Him, by 'praying' to 'Mary' rather than God the Father.

The Reformation "Threw out the baby with the bathwater". In an effort to distance themselves from the Roman Catholic Church (and justifiably so), they went to the other extreme of denying any idea that one could be changed into the "likeness" of Christ in this life. Because if a Protestant Christian were ever to act righteously, the Protestants would have to attribute such to ‘works,’ for his theology makes no provision for any subjective divine life (Christ dwelling in the Christian and making them righteous, experientially).

"Union with Christ" has been vilified by the Enemy as Mysticism and Protestants liken anything connected to Catholicism as Mysticism. So, they have thrown out "Union with Christ", which is clearly spoken about in John 15 and many other places in the NT. Catholic Mysticism has nothing to do with the Scriptural teaching of Union with Christ.

And because of Protestant theology, this is precisely why it is so difficult to get through to them that God wants us to be righteous, and not just by objective imputation but by the subjective indwelling of Christ. The Bible is crystal clear about the subjective indwelling of Christ, yet it is sadly ignored as a dynamic within us to conform us to the image (character) of Christ in this life. There is nothing new under the sun and Paul himself struggled with this false doctrine, too. And that is why he said:

1Cor 15:34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

And what is this "Knowledge of God" that Peter is talking about? Again, we turn to 2 Peter 1:3.

2Pet 1:3 According as his divine power (the power spoken of in 2 Tim 3:5) hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

Col 1:10 That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God; (remember, this is not head knowledge or bible knowledge)

I have been thinking about the two trees (in Eden), and realising that unless we are grafted into the tree of life, we are still naturally situated in the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, spiritually speaking - which actually means physically* speaking, as well.

This latter situation is what all those who insist it is impossible to cease from sin, are actually promoting - that the life in their flesh is so strong, that even if the life of God came into their being, (by the Holy Spirit), it would not overcome 'the sin' in their flesh. Yet this thinking directly opposes the purpose and meaning of Christ's battle with 'sin in the flesh' Rom 8:3, on the cross, after which He cried 'It is finished'! Does that thinking mean that some Christians don't believe Christ bruised Satan's head, or, they have not acquiesced to the bruising of Satan's head in them?

John 7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or [whether] I speak of myself.

Col 1:10, in which you highlighted, 'and increasing in the knowledge of God', clearly states that 'the knowledge of God' has actually begun in those who are therefore exhorted to 'walk worthy of the Lord'. This must mean that one starts somewhere (small probably) and grows in knowing Him. I like how this also implies a process of the renewing of the mind, as we pull down strongholds with His help. Rom 8:13, 2 Cor 10:4, 5.

It is impossible to look at the change in Paul's life and say, 'There goes a man who is still waiting to experience the righteousness of God in his body when he dies'. His life was so totally transformed by his relationship with Jesus Christ, that he spoke/wrote often of His love: he stopped 'breathing out threatenings and slaughter' Acts 9:1 and became a preacher of the very same message he had objected to before His encounter with Jesus Christ Himself on the road to Damascus Acts 9:4, 5, 6.

I am seeing it's unbelief which prevents Christians from experiencing truth in their inward parts.

Psalms 51:6 Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden [part] thou shalt make me to know wisdom.

There again is that word 'know' - to be intimately acquainted with. This is more than mental assent. It is to be experienced.

 

[Axehead]

Hi Stan,

I was not setting an 'ambush' for you. (I gave you Rom 6:6.) I was trying to understand how you are separating the parts of a human being in order to declare that only the body is raised from the dead, when it is clear from Paul's epistles that there is both 'newness of life' and 'the new man' in which to reside and walk. This suggests that something profound happens to both the soul and the spirit of a man when he is born again, receiving a new heart (seat of desire, spiritual senses, understanding, intellect, reason, and emotion), where the new spirit - the Holy Spirit - is received.

Hi dragonfly,

I hope Stan responds to you and I hope you and Stan don't mind if I comment. I do appreciate you setting the record straight that no one is trying to ambush anyone and I certainly don't see you attempting do that.

I confess I've never really considered whether when 'I' died in Christ my (old) soul died, because our memory - which undoubtedly has a physical base - and our past - which undoubtedly continues to affect our present physical reality - remain with us, and God heals them (if we let Him close enough), but your assertion that only the body will be resurrected prompted me to think about the question.

I don't believe our old soul (mind, will, emotions) died and I don't think this is born out in experience otherwise we would be instantly mature in Christ. But the fact is that we are commanded to renew our mind. We also know that the Christian life is a progressive life of growth, of having our emotions stabilized by the Spirit of God and having our will strengthened where we are not easily tossed to and fro by the temptations of the flesh and Satan. And this scripture comes to mind:

1Th 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Really, I think I believe God is cleverer than that. Your reply about Paul (before and after Acts 9), in which I think you intend me to understand that only 'the sin' died in him when he was crucified with Christ, also gives food for thought, because normally when a person dies, the whole of them dies. Their body dies and their soul and spirit separate from it. Clearly, after we have been crucified with Christ we still have our original body, soul and spirit, but, as Oswald Chambers phrased it, 'the mainspring' of these has been altered. Now the life of Christ animates us.

The Life of Christ indeed does animate us and is meant to permeate every area of our soul and spirit, renewing and regenerating us. Abiding in Christ and being changed into His likeness is progressive, but when the Spirit of Christ comes into a man who has never before experienced the infusion of Divine Life (one who was dead in trespasses and sins), something altogether is DIFFERENT. A new principle is alive within him and this new principle of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus is upsetting all the "old norms" in one's life (which presumably have died in Christ). We overcome by the Word of our Testimony and that Word is Christ and Christ is our Testimony. I have been astonished at so many Christians who cannot testify that Christ is purifying their heart and motives or giving them victory over sin and causing them to walk in righteousness and holiness. This is the testimony of Christ in one's life. If we don't have these things and if they are not progressively becoming a part of us as 1 Peter 1 declares, then what is the alternative principle that is operating in one's life who have no Testimony of Christ that they can declare? Is the only testimony of Christ that we have been saved and delivered? Saved from what? Delivered from what?

Hi Axehead,

Thanks for what you explained about Protestant thinking in your last post. I had never realised that Catholics teach something about 'union with Christ', as they seem to spend a great deal of time promoting their distance from Him, by 'praying' to 'Mary' rather than God the Father.

But the Catholics "union with God" is not Biblically based, dragonfly. Their teaching is not the Bible's teaching about "Union with Christ".

"The importance of divinization (theosis) in Roman Catholic teaching is evident from what the Catechism of the Catholic Church says of it:

The Word became flesh to make us "partakers of the divine nature": "For this is why the Word became man, and the Son of God became the Son of man: so that man, by entering into communion with the Word and thus receiving divine sonship, might become a son of God." "For the Son of God became man so that we might become God." "The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods."[sup]VaticanArchive[/sup]​

I have been thinking about the two trees (in Eden), and realising that unless we are grafted into the tree of life, we are still naturally situated in the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, spiritually speaking - which actually means physically* speaking, as well.

This latter situation is what all those who insist it is impossible to cease from sin, are actually promoting - that the life in their flesh is so strong, that even if the life of God came into their being, (by the Holy Spirit), it would not overcome 'the sin' in their flesh. Yet this thinking directly opposes the purpose and meaning of Christ's battle with 'sin in the flesh' Rom 8:3, on the cross, after which He cried 'It is finished'! Does that thinking mean that some Christians don't believe Christ bruised Satan's head, or, they have not acquiesced to the bruising of Satan's head in them?

Christ certainly bruised Satan's head.
John 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

This power that Christ gives those who receive Him is the power of the Holy Spirit to live godly in Him. It is power that casts out the prince of this world from one's life and no longer be captive by him.

2Tim 2:26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

John 7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or [whether] I speak of myself.

Col 1:10, in which you highlighted, 'and increasing in the knowledge of God', clearly states that 'the knowledge of God' has actually begun in those who are therefore exhorted to 'walk worthy of the Lord'. This must mean that one starts somewhere (small probably) and grows in knowing Him. I like how this also implies a process of the renewing of the mind, as we pull down strongholds with His help. Rom 8:13, 2 Cor 10:4, 5.

It is impossible to look at the change in Paul's life and say, 'There goes a man who is still waiting to experience the righteousness of God in his body when he dies'. His life was so totally transformed by his relationship with Jesus Christ, that he spoke/wrote often of His love: he stopped 'breathing out threatenings and slaughter' Acts 9:1 and became a preacher of the very same message he had objected to before His encounter with Jesus Christ Himself on the road to Damascus Acts 9:4, 5, 6.

I am seeing it's unbelief which prevents Christians from experiencing truth in their inward parts.

Psalms 51:6 Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden [part] thou shalt make me to know wisdom.

There again is that word 'know' - to be intimately acquainted with. This is more than mental assent. It is to be experienced.

I too am seeing the call to godliness (which is righteousness and holiness in one's life) as being viewed as unattainable or not in the Bible, AS UNBELIEF. What else could it be called? For clearly in the Word, Jesus commands from His own mouth and through His Apostles in many and various ways, for us to live godly (not act godly), walk worthy and BE holy (not act holy).


Heb 3:10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. (intimate knowing)
Heb 3:11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest. (striving in the flesh with no peace in their heart)
Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
Heb 3:13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. (form of godliness, no true "in Christ" righteousness and holiness)
Heb 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
(Not just mental ascent and knowledge but partaking intimately of Christ, knowing Christ).
Heb 3:15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.
Heb 3:16 For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses. (Some that came out of Egypt provoked the Lord with unbelief and some did not)
Heb 3:17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness? (Carcass has no life in it, and the wildnerness today is the world. Unbelief is making many tire of trying to "DO" the Christian life in their own strength)
Heb 3:18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?
Heb 3:19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

This unbelief does not mean that one does not believe in God. It means that one is not willing to walk in His ways (Heb 3:10), or receive all of His word into them so they will enter into His Rest and be conformed to the image of Christ. It means that they are unwilling to have the principle of the Cross operative in their lives, which means death to the flesh (dependence on myself rather than Christ). Those who have this unbelief, do not BELIEVE in many critical passages of GOD's WORD. That is the UNBELIEF.

Axehead

 

[us2are1]

I have postponed my next installment because of all the great discussions so far. Many thanks to all for working through this with me. I have been learning a great deal.

2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

What is this power that they have denied but the power of Christ to change us, within. There is this philosophy that has existed since the Reformation that man can only reckon himself righteous and not be changed internally in any way.

Here is what that "power" is.

2Pe 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him (not head knowledge) that hath called us to glory and virtue: (He has called us to virtue IN THIS LIFE).

Protestants have adamantly insisted that a Christian cannot be "made" or "become" righteous or godly or changed in any way.

Martin Luther said, "The Christian is simultaneously both (extrinisically) righteous and (intrinsically) a sinner." So, outward we are reckoned righteous but inward there is no change or hope of change. Still just a sinner.

I posted this quote in "Christ-Like", but let me post it again.

Andreas [background=yellow]Osiander[/background] (1498-1552) was an early ally of Martin Luther in the Protestant Reformation, but differed from Luther on the subject of “justification.” Osiander believed that the righteousness of a believer was accomplished, not just by objective imputation, but by the subjective indwelling of the living Christ – that the meaning of the Greek dikaiosune could legitimately mean “to make righteous.”Osiander was eventually repudiated by both Martin Luther and John Calvin, and relegated to the blacklist of Protestant heretics. To this day Protestants are extremely afraid of his concept of an indwelling participation in the life of Christ.

Why? Is the question.

Martin Luther - “The Christian is simultaneously both (extrinsically) righteous and (intrinsically) sinner.”
D. Martyn Lloyd-Jones - “Justification makes no actual change in us; it is a declaration. The Christian is not a good man; he is a vile wretch saved by the grace of God.”
Alister McGrath - “Protestant justification involves the alien righteousness of Christ imputed to the believer, external to him, not located in him, or in any way belonging to him.”

How is a Protestant Christian to live? These objective benefits have no affect on who we are, or how we live. The best he can do is to “reckon” that God has “reckoned” him “righteous” via a “positive thinking” process.

Post-reformation Catholic theologians chided the Protestants:

The Reformation "Threw out the baby with the bathwater". In an effort to distance themselves from the Roman Catholic Church (and justifiably so), they went to the other extreme of denying any idea that one could be changed into the "likeness" of Christ in this life. Because if a Protestant Christian were ever to act righteously, the Protestants would have to attribute such to ‘works,’ for his theology makes no provision for any subjective divine life (Christ dwelling in the Christian and making them righteous, experientially).

"Union with Christ" has been vilified by the Enemy as Mysticism and Protestants liken anything connected to Catholicism as Mysticism. So, they have thrown out "Union with Christ", which is clearly spoken about in John 15 and many other places in the NT. Catholic Mysticism has nothing to do with the Scriptural teaching of Union with Christ.

And because of Protestant theology, this is precisely why it is so difficult to get through to them that God wants us to be righteous, and not just by objective imputation but by the subjective indwelling of Christ. The Bible is crystal clear about the subjective indwelling of Christ, yet it is sadly ignored as a dynamic within us to conform us to the image (character) of Christ in this life. There is nothing new under the sun and Paul himself struggled with this false doctrine, too. And that is why he said:

1Cor 15:34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

And what is this "Knowledge of God" that Peter is talking about? Again, we turn to 2 Peter 1:3.

2Pet 1:3 According as his divine power (the power spoken of in 2 Tim 3:5) hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

Col 1:10 That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God; (remember, this is not head knowledge or bible knowledge)

It is an intimate knowledge of Him that we attain through abiding (union with Christ) in Him, daily.

Alas, many reckon by faith what they think they will never be able to experience until they leave this world. But the scriptures are clear that if we do not experience Christ in this world, we will not see Him in the next. This is "denying the power thereof". What is their "reckoning" achieving for them? If they have no oil in their lamps like the foolish virgins then all their "reckoning" will be for nought. Jesus said to the 5 foolish virgins that "I don't know you. He said to the man in Matthew 7, who had a long resume of outward works, "I don't know you".

Consequently, many Scriptures are rendered meaningless to many Christians in this life as they rationalize that "those particular scriptures" that deal with godliness, righteousness and holiness in this life must only be talking about the next life.

This is how "doctrines of demons", nullify God's Word. They establish the premise that a certain truth cannot be true (at least in this life) which in turn causes one to "ignore" all the scriptures on these subjects. In this case, all of God's Word is ignored which deals with righteousness, holiness and godliness and no surprise as Satan would rather have the Christian believe that he is not righteous, cannot be righteous and never have any hope of being righteous, or changed within and not capable of walking in holiness. Satan does not want the individual Christian to walk in the power of godliness.

And this is how one is deceived into "walking after a form of godliness but denying the power thereof". The power of the indwelling Spirit to change one's heart will not happen if one is convinced it is not for this life.


Further, we read in 2 Peter 1 that Peter is telling us that we are "partaking of the Divine nature" and that His divine power hath given unto us EVERYTHING that pertaineth to life and godliness.

Does your Bible say that, "He has given us everything that pertains to godliness?" What does the Bible say that we should do to ensure that we are not barren or unfruitful? Peter says that we must give diligence to add to OUR faith, virtue, knowledge, temperance, patience and to all these things that belong to us and are part of us, GODLINESS.

Does your Bible say that these THINGS SHOULD BE IN YOU?

2Pe 1:5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
2Pe 1:6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
2Pe 1:7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
2Pe 1:8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Unlike, what Martin Luther said, these things don't appear to only be extrinsic to us. They don't seem to be objective and outward only, for how can kindness be outward if it is not inward, first? How can love (charity) be outward if we don't possess it within, first? If we are just filthy, vile sinners without any hope of being changed from within, then how can all these things be in us that Peter speaks of?

God is recovering truth in every generation and I believe with all my heart that He wants the Christian to know the power that gives one true godliness and He wants us to stop "denying the power", thereof, and awake to righteousness and sin not.

Do you have oil in your lamp? Do you know Him in the fellowship of His sufferings that you may know His resurrection life within you......NOW? Is the Cross operative in your life (the Crucified Life). This is not fleshly discipline and obedience of outward rules. It is an inward principle of the Spirit. The Law of of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus.

God bless everyone,
Axehead

They are denying the power of the Spirit of God. Their form of godliness is the wisdom of men. But the power of God bearing witness of them is not there. It takes following Christ, doing what He showed as an example and what he taught to understand it.

37 If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me;
4And my speech and my preaching were not with persuasive words of human wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power,
5 that your faith should not be in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.

Or just hearing the many scriptures that tell you to ask God as a faithful creator.
Who has gone out into the wilderness to follow God without preparing their way back to failure?

 

[Stan]

Hi Stan,
I was not setting an 'ambush' for you. (I gave you Rom 6:6.) I was trying to understand how you are separating the parts of a human being in order to declare that only the body is raised from the dead, when it is clear from Paul's epistles that there is both 'newness of life' and 'the new man' in which to reside and walk. This suggests that something profound happens to both the soul and the spirit of a man when he is born again, receiving a new heart (seat of desire, spiritual senses, understanding, intellect, reason, and emotion), where the new spirit - the Holy Spirit - is received.

Thats' good DF, I was just stating my preference, in case you were. Remember, we are tri-partite beings, created in God's image.
God originally created us to live eternally, buy Adam & Eve failed to obey his one command, as shown in Gen 2:17. In this context, the word 'die', in Hebrew muwth, is a verb which, in the literal context it is used in, means physical death. It meant they would be subject to the ravages of time, and as plainly seen, no longer have access to the Tree of Life. It cannot be taken figuratively here.
In regards to your comment about Paul's epistles, when he does use the word dead, as dead in our sins, he is being literal. As in prison when a condemned walks around they yell out, "Dead man walking". It is a statement of current status and inevitability. The fact is, our soul and spirit NEVER die, which is clearly shown in Rev 20 when the unsaved are cast into the lake of fire, to suffer eternal damnation. I answered Rom 6:6 for you so if you have other verses that you would like me to address please feel free to provide them, in their context.

Really, I think I believe God is cleverer than that. Your reply about Paul (before and after Acts 9), in which I think you intend me to understand that only 'the sin' died in him when he was crucified with Christ, also gives food for thought, because normally when a person dies, the whole of them dies. Their body dies and their soul and spirit separate from it. Clearly, after we have been crucified with Christ we still have our original body, soul and spirit, but, as Oswald Chambers phrased it, 'the mainspring' of these has been altered. Now the life of Christ animates us.

Cleverness is a tool of satan not God. I can't be 100& certain due to my bad memory, but I'm pretty sure God is never referred to as clever. This is partly why I said what I did about an ambush. I addressed your question in a way you hopefully would understand given the wording of your question. In Romans 6, Paul is talking figuratively. It's like saying, "I almost died of embarrassment"
It is ALWAYS important to read God's Word within the context it is written. It is NOT all literal, just as our everyday language is filled with allegory, metaphors and symbolic language, so is the Bible. The Holy Spirit animates or gives us power in our daily walk, as we seek Him, but we can end up doing a lot of things in the flesh, which will deplete us. I always need to remind myself of this fact. It is to easy to do things in the flesh. We have to remember to come to Christ on a daily basis in prayer so He can empower us with the Holy Spirit. Another part of taking up our cross DAILY.

I looked more closely at the meaning of 'might become' (in 2 Cor 5:21), and it's difficult to reconcile the Greek with your interpretation. I notice the word 'might' appears in other verses, and always with a verb, in this case 'be made'. It seems to be more imminent than after we die.
Mickelson's Enhanced Strong's
might be made
G1096 γίνομaι ginomai (ghin'-om-ai) v.
1. to cause to be ("gen"-erate)
2. (reflexively) to become (come into being)
{used with great latitude (literal, figurative, intensive, etc.)}
[a prolongation and middle voice form of a primary verb]
KJV: arise, be assembled, be(-come, -fall, -have self), be brought (to pass), (be) come (to pass), continue, be divided, draw, be ended, fall, be finished, follow, be found, be fulfilled, + God forbid, grow, happen, have, be kept, be made, be married, be ordained to be, partake, pass, be performed, be published, require, seem, be showed, X soon as it was, sound, be taken, be turned, use, wax, will, would, be wrought.
righteousness of God
G1343 δικaιοσύνη dikaiosune (dik-ai-os-oo'-nay) n.
1. equity (of character or act)
2. (specially) Christian justification
[from G1342]
KJV: righteousness
Root(s): G1342
[G1342 δίκaιος dikaios (dik'-ai-os) adj.
1. equitable (in character or act)
2. (by implication) innocent, holy
{absolutely or relatively}
[from G1349]
KJV: just, meet, right(-eous)
Root(s): G1349
Compare: G3741, G40, G2413]
in Him
G846 aὐτός autos (au-tos') p/p.
1. self
{reflexive pronoun used of the third person (alone or in the comparative G1438), and of the other persons (with the proper personal pronoun)}
[from the particle au (perhaps akin to the base of G109 through the idea of a baffling wind (backward))]
KJV: her, it(-self), one, the other, (mine) own, said, (self-), the) same, ((him-, my-, thy- )self, (your-)selves, she, that, their(-s), them(-selves), there(-at, - by, -in, -into, -of, -on, -with), they, (these) things, this (man), those, together, very, which
Compare: G848
See also: G1438, G109

I still cannot see how - if 'I' 'am saved' at all, in the present tense - 'I' (being crucified with Him) am not also righteous in Christ, now.

The following thought is from the Reformation Study Bible. It succinctly states my thoughts on this matter. It can be found on this URL; http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Cor%205:21&version=MOUNCE and then click on SHOW RESOURCES.

"we might become the righteousness of God." Not only did God impute our sin to Christ, He also imputed Christ’s perfect righteousness to us (that is, He counted it as belonging to us). This imputation is the basis for the progressive realization of God’s righteousness in our moral character. Our thoughts and deeds are sanctified in increasing measure until we receive perfect righteousness in heaven.

"THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS"

 

[us2are1]

They are denying the power of the Spirit of God. Their form of godliness is the wisdom of men. But the power of God bearing witness of them is not there. It takes following Christ, doing what He showed as an example and what he taught to understand it.

37 If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me;
4And my speech and my preaching were not with persuasive words of human wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power,
5 that your faith should not be in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.

Or just hearing the many scriptures that tell you to ask God as a faithful creator.
Who has gone out into the wilderness to follow God without preparing their way back to failure?

Anyone?

 

[Axehead]

Thats' good DF, I was just stating my preference, in case you were. Remember, we are tri-partite beings, created in God's image.
God originally created us to live eternally, buy Adam & Eve failed to obey his one command, as shown in Gen 2:17. In this context, the word 'die', in Hebrew muwth, is a verb which, in the literal context it is used in, means physical death. It meant they would be subject to the ravages of time, and as plainly seen, no longer have access to the Tree of Life. It cannot be taken figuratively here.
In regards to your comment about Paul's epistles, when he does use the word dead, as dead in our sins, he is being literal. As in prison when a condemned walks around they yell out, "Dead man walking". It is a statement of current status and inevitability. The fact is, our soul and spirit NEVER die, which is clearly shown in Rev 20 when the unsaved are cast into the lake of fire, to suffer eternal damnation. I answered Rom 6:6 for you so if you have other verses that you would like me to address please feel free to provide them, in their context.






Cleverness is a tool of satan not God. I can't be 100& certain due to my bad memory, but I'm pretty sure God is never referred to as clever. This is partly why I said what I did about an ambush. I addressed your question in a way you hopefully would understand given the wording of your question. In Romans 6, Paul is talking figuratively. It's like saying, "I almost died of embarrassment"
It is ALWAYS important to read God's Word within the context it is written. It is NOT all literal, just as our everyday language is filled with allegory, metaphors and symbolic language, so is the Bible. The Holy Spirit animates or gives us power in our daily walk, as we seek Him, but we can end up doing a lot of things in the flesh, which will deplete us. I always need to remind myself of this fact. It is to easy to do things in the flesh. We have to remember to come to Christ on a daily basis in prayer so He can empower us with the Holy Spirit. Another part of taking up our cross DAILY.






The following thought is from the Reformation Study Bible. It succinctly states my thoughts on this matter. It can be found on this URL; http://www.biblegate...&version=MOUNCE and then click on SHOW RESOURCES.

"we might become the righteousness of God." Not only did God impute our sin to Christ, He also imputed Christ’s perfect righteousness to us (that is, He counted it as belonging to us). This imputation is the basis for the progressive realization of God’s righteousness in our moral character. Our thoughts and deeds are sanctified in increasing measure until we receive perfect righteousness in heaven.

"THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS"

I prefer the KJV for 1 Cor 5:21. It agrees with Mounce's Phi 3:9 and KJV Phi 3:9.

The Righteousness that we have is the righteousness of Christ by faith. We are being conformed to Him in this life. We are being made righteous in Him by faith. This is the walk of sanctification, deliverance, holiness, purification of one's heart and motives. This is the abiding in Him and the fruit that He says WE BEAR.

When you get a chance, would you please answer these questions, Stan so I can understand more clearly where you are coming from?

1. Do we bear fruit in this life?
2. Where does it come from?
3. How is it produced?
4. Does a Believer in Christ have power to live a godly life?
5. Does a Believer in Christ have power over sin and what is this power?
6. Why does a Believer now have power over sin, (the flesh, the devil and the world)?
7. What is the purpose of the Cross in a Believer's life?
8. What is the purpose of the indwelling Holy Spirit in a Believer's life?
9. If dying with Christ and being raised with Him is figurative, is the "new heart" and regeneration figurative, also?
10. What is the purging and refining work of the Holy Spirit in a Believer's life.

Axehead

 

[Stan]

Yes I understand this Axehead. Some people have ALL their doctrine based on what the KJV says, whether it is faithful to the Greek texts or not. You seem to be willing to at least look at modern English translations, so why revert to the KJV? You don't read Shakespeare to learn modern English do you? The tense in 2 Cor 5:21 is important, hence your reason for preferring the KJV, that seems to use the present tense, even though the Greek does NOT. The Greek word is genomai, which in Strong's connotes;
1) to become, i.e. to come into existence, begin to be, receive being
2) to become, i.e. to come to pass, happen

a) of events​

3) to arise, appear in history, come upon the stage

a) of men appearing in public​

4) to be made, finished

a) of miracles, to be performed, wrought​

5) to become, be made

Thayer's writes; To become, i.e. to come into existence, begin to be, receive being.

The end result is when we receive Eternal Life and our own righteousness. It starts as Christ in us and ends as our own.

Sorry but as far as the questions are concerned, I am absolutely positive I have given enough on this thread for you to know how I believe, and this feel like even more of a setup than DFs post was, that I commented the same thing about.

Thanks

 

[Episkopos]

1. Do we bear fruit in this life? We can!

2. Where does it come from? From being grafted into the living Vine.

3. How is it produced? By abiding in Christ

4. Does a Believer in Christ have power to live a godly life? By the grace of God...yes!

5. Does a Believer in Christ have power over sin and what is this power? We have the keeping power of God when we abide in Christ

6. Why does a Believer now have power over sin, (the flesh, the devil and the world)? Jesus was resurrected to empower us with His Spirit to do so.

7. What is the purpose of the Cross in a Believer's life? To destroy the sin nature and to kill the power that keeps men from the presence of God. The cross eliminates the things that impede our relationship with God who is holy.

8. What is the purpose of the indwelling Holy Spirit in a Believer's life? To conform us to Christ.

9. If dying with Christ and being raised with Him is figurative, is the "new heart" and regeneration figurative, also? They are actual spiritual experiences that change us forever...and advances the kingdom on earth.

10. What is the purging and refining work of the Holy Spirit in a Believer's life. The fire that purifies us is the Father at work in us. AS we remain in the presence of God, we are purged from all uncleanness so that we can stay in the presence of God. This is the process of sanctification.

 

[Axehead]

1. Do we bear fruit in this life? We can!

2. Where does it come from? From being grafted into the living Vine.

3. How is it produced? By abiding in Christ

4. Does a Believer in Christ have power to live a godly life? By the grace of God...yes!

5. Does a Believer in Christ have power over sin and what is this power? We have the keeping power of God when we abide in Christ

6. Why does a Believer now have power over sin, (the flesh, the devil and the world)? Jesus was resurrected to empower us with His Spirit to do so.

7. What is the purpose of the Cross in a Believer's life? To destroy the sin nature and to kill the power that keeps men from the presence of God. The cross eliminates the things that impede our relationship with God who is holy.

8. What is the purpose of the indwelling Holy Spirit in a Believer's life? To conform us to Christ.

9. If dying with Christ and being raised with Him is figurative, is the "new heart" and regeneration figurative, also? They are actual spiritual experiences that change us forever...and advances the kingdom on earth.

10. What is the purging and refining work of the Holy Spirit in a Believer's life. The fire that purifies us is the Father at work in us. AS we remain in the presence of God, we are purged from all uncleanness so that we can stay in the presence of God. This is the process of sanctification.

Thank you, Episkopos. Simple answers for simple questions. Stan, do you agree with Episkopos' answers?

Ginomai appears in the NT 200 times. In John 1:14, ginomai appears. The Word was made flesh. In John 1:14 and 2 Cor 5:21 the present tense of ginomai is used. God become flesh in our human reality and it is on the stage of human experience that God performs His word in us, NOW.

Let show the folks the rest of ginomai that you did not post.


G1096
γίνομaι
ginomai
ghin'-om-ahee
A prolonged and middle form of a primary verb; to cause to be (“gen” -erate), that is, (reflexively) to become (come into being), used with great latitude (literally, figuratively, intensively, etc.): - arise be assembled, be (come, -fall, -have self), be brought (to pass), (be) come (to pass), continue, be divided, be done, draw, be ended, fall, be finished, follow, be found, be fulfilled, + God forbid, grow, happen, have, be kept, be made, be married, be ordained to be, partake, pass, be performed, be published, require, seem, be showed, X soon as it was, sound, be taken, be turned, use, wax, will, would, be wrought.

But, just going with what you posted is fine because the work of sanctification is progressive. It is progressive because we are supposed to be in an abiding relationship where we are being (becoming) conformed to His likeness.


The Word of God is meant to be experienced subjectively. That is when you really cannot deny what it says and means.
Apart from that, everything is mental word games.

Axehead