Canada and the Catholic Church

[Brakelite]

There are a lot of guilt to pass around here in both the Roman and England church, even the church I grew up in did some questionable stuff. I just wrote it off to these are my leaders and they know more then me so I just looked away

I think we get brainwashed by leaders and blindly follow them, thinking it is what God wants, it’s sad

It all stems from a complete misunderstanding as to Who God is... His character... God grace... His love. Look at it this way.
A. God is going to burn everyone forever in hell who rejects Him.
B. If I burn them for a short time now, which leads to their confessing Jesus, they'll thank me later.
C. I'm not allowed to burn them now, but I will do what I can. The end justifies the means.
D. God isn't here to do this, so it's up to me.
E. It isn't about their choice. They are sinners. What do they know? I'll make their choices for them.

It Christians can believe God is going to burn sinners in hell forever, they can believe in anything.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

It all stems from a complete misunderstanding as to Who God is... His character... God grace... His love. Look at it this way.
A. God is going to burn everyone forever in hell who rejects Him.
B. If I burn them for a short time now, which leads to their confessing Jesus, they'll thank me later.
C. I'm not allowed to burn them now, but I will do what I can. The end justifies the means.
D. God isn't here to do this, so it's up to me.
E. It isn't about their choice. They are sinners. What do they know? I'll make their choices for them.

It Christians can believe God is going to burn sinners in hell forever, they can believe in anything.

So you do not think hell is forever?

 

[Brakelite]

So you do not think hell is forever?

The Bible does not teach that suffering in fire is forever.
It says the fire is eternal.
It says the punishment is forever.
It says the smoke goes up forever.
The Bible nowhere says sinners are being burnt forever. Sinners do not have immortal life. The redeemed are given immortal life as a gift. To believe sinners live forever is to claim their immortality was natural or innate to their very being. Such a claim is totally contradictory to the entire redemption story.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

The Bible does not teach that suffering in fire is forever.
It says the fire is eternal.
It says the punishment is forever.
It says the smoke goes up forever.
The Bible nowhere says sinners are being burnt forever. Sinners do not have immortal life. The redeemed are given immortal life as a gift. To believe sinners live forever is to claim their immortality was natural or innate to their very being. Such a claim is totally contradictory to the entire redemption story.

I can not agree. We are made mortal beings. If a sinner will cease to exist. He is given a gift.

The bible says the worm never dies.

42 “But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea. 43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched— 44 where

‘Their worm does not die
And the fire is not quenched.’

45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame, rather than having two feet, to be cast into hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched— 46 where

‘Their worm does not die
And the fire is not quenched.’

47 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire— 48 where

‘Their worm does not die
And the fire is not quenched.’

 

[Brakelite]

I can not agree. We are made mortal beings. If a sinner will cease to exist. He is given a gift.

The bible says the worm never dies.

42 “But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea. 43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched— 44 where

‘Their worm does not die
And the fire is not quenched.’

45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame, rather than having two feet, to be cast into hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched— 46 where

‘Their worm does not die
And the fire is not quenched.’

47 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire— 48 where

‘Their worm does not die
And the fire is not quenched.’

Uh huh. So we are worms? All you have told me is that the fire cannot be quenched. That's it. Sure, people are cast in there where they will not have a good time. But it doesn't say they stay there forever does it.
What is the normal result of anything being in a fire which cannot be put out? First it dies. And it stays dead without a resurrection. There's no resurrection from the lake of fire. The Bible says they are burnt up. That is the state they stay in forever. Burnt up... Ashes. No life. The wages of sin .. Death. Total. Complete. Yes, extinction. And that is the only way the universe can be cleansed of all sin.

 

[Brakelite]

I can not agree. We are made mortal beings. If a sinner will cease to exist. He is given a gift.

The bible says the worm never dies.

42 “But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea. 43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched— 44 where

‘Their worm does not die
And the fire is not quenched.’

45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame, rather than having two feet, to be cast into hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched— 46 where

‘Their worm does not die
And the fire is not quenched.’

47 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire— 48 where

‘Their worm does not die
And the fire is not quenched.’

But this is off topic but happy to discuss elsewhere.

 

[Addy]

I would like to end this thread with some personal thoughts...

I am noticing a theme here with regards to the Catholic members on these forums.There are accusations of being mis-interpreted, mis-understood, and mis-judged. In reality.. it is the bible itself that has proven the invalidity of what the church calls the "sacraments".

A few CLAIMS of the Catholic church....

The Catholic church claims that Mary was a virgin through-out her entire life. Scripture states that Jesus had other siblings.... even with that aside... (due to interpretation)... There is absolutely NO way that ANYONE can ACCURATELY state what happened in Mary and Joseph's marriage bed. This is a claim made by the church without any TRUE knowledge. END of story.

The Catholic church claims that a priest has the power and authority to absolve sin.

The Catholic Church teaches that Christ instituted the sacrament of penance. Rome teaches that divine forgiveness is granted through the priest’s absolution to those who confess their sins to a priest and make satisfaction for them. (Source: Just for Catholics)

Scripture clearly states that only Jesus Christ can forgive and absolve us of our sins... and HE does not make us do Penance ( a punishment given after confession by the priest to the penitent.... a punishment undergone in token of penitence for sin.)... nor does Christ make us confess through a go-between ( the priest who hears confession ). The bible tells us to CONFESS our sins to CHRIST...and that HE will forgive us. He never tells us to mow the lawn 15 times in order to obtain the full benefits of our confession.

The Catholic Church and her rituals only serve to make the Catholic DEPENDENT on the church rather than on Christ.

With regards to communion in the Catholic Church... it is taught that the bread ( host ) wafer is literally turned into the body of Christ and the wine is literally turned into the blood of Christ. No where in scripture does it tell us to INGEST the body of Christ or DRINK His blood. All sin and sacrifice was bought and paid for ONCE and for ALL by CHRIST when he died upon the cross.

As a former Catholic... I have received communion many times and I can assure you that what I received was a wafer.... and a drink of wine. It was NEVER my experience that I was ACTUALLY inhaling the body of Christ or drinking His blood. I clearly missed the significance of this "miracle".

I understand that these forums are for ALL Christians to partake in discussions...

However... It is the Catholic church that claims herself to be the ONE and ONLY TRUE CHURCH... simply because she was FIRST on the scene. It is the Catholic church that has denounced the protestant denominations as being in rebellion and falling away from truth. Therefore SEPARATED FROM.

There is NOTHING that will EVER bring together the Catholics and Protestants. They are NOT meant to come together because the protestant movement walked away from the lies of Catholicism.

I take comfort in knowing that GOD sees all and knows all and that ONE day... judgement will fall on the church. She will have to take account for every deed she performed.

As someone who has been judged as DOOMED and DAMNED by this very church for walking away... I do not think I am OBLIGED to embrace this religion that focuses on and replaces scripture with ritual.

Calling out something as a lie is NOT hate. Those who stand against the Catholic church are not doing so out of hatred... they are doing so out of obligation to speak TRUTH.

This is my own personal testimony regarding the Catholic Church... and it does not cover the abuse I received under her. That is personal.

In light of the recent rise in Catholic topics lately... I felt obliged to share my heart. I really have had a tough journey trying to understand and survive these forums... It has been a year of ups and downs... and I think I have finally truly decided that I would much rather be absolutely ALONE and without fellowship. I feel this constant tugging at my peace and joy... and those two attributes are not something I desire to trade for the sake of being heard.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Uh huh. So we are worms? All you have told me is that the fire cannot be quenched. That's it. Sure, people are cast in there where they will not have a good time. But it doesn't say they stay there forever does it.
What is the normal result of anything being in a fire which cannot be put out? First it dies. And it stays dead without a resurrection. There's no resurrection from the lake of fire. The Bible says they are burnt up. That is the state they stay in forever. Burnt up... Ashes. No life. The wages of sin .. Death. Total. Complete. Yes, extinction. And that is the only way the universe can be cleansed of all sin.

the worm never dies.

Can you explain what this means? Why would we be told WE will be cast where the worm never dies?

 

[Brakelite]

47 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire— 48 where

‘Their worm does not die
And the fire is not quenched.’

the worm never dies.

Can you explain what this means?

In another passage Jesus adds a further component to this conversation...
KJV Matthew 10:28
28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
To think that Jesus contradicts Himself is, well, unthinkable. He is not saying I'm one place that the sinner never dies, and in another, that he's destroyed. Both cannot be correct.
Regarding the worm, in this instance Jesus used the word "Gehenna" for the word "hell." It so happened that Gehenna was an actual place of burning just outside the walls of Jerusalem. No doubt, Christ's listeners could see the smoke curling up from the Valley of Gehenna, where dead bodies and garbage were constantly being burned. If anything fell outside the destructive flames, it was quickly consumed by maggots or worms. With the vivid scenes of utter extinction before their eyes, Jesus used the Gehenna fire as an example of the complete destruction of hell-fire. The fire was never quenched, and the worms were constantly at work upon the bodies .... a picture of total destruction.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

In another passage Jesus adds a further component to this conversation...
KJV Matthew 10:28
28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
To think that Jesus contradicts Himself is, well, unthinkable. He is not saying I'm one place that the sinner never dies, and in another, that he's destroyed. Both cannot be correct.
Regarding the worm, in this instance Jesus used the word "Gehenna" for the word "hell." It so happened that Gehenna was an actual place of burning just outside the walls of Jerusalem. No doubt, Christ's listeners could see the smoke curling up from the Valley of Gehenna, where dead bodies and garbage were constantly being burned. If anything fell outside the destructive flames, it was quickly consumed by maggots or worms. With the vivid scenes of utter extinction before their eyes, Jesus used the Gehenna fire as an example of the complete destruction of hell-fire. The fire was never quenched, and the worms were constantly at work upon the bodies .... a picture of total destruction.

he said they will be cast into hell. where their worm does not die.

What is their worm? (it is not a worm, it is their worm)

A soul cast to hell is destroyed. that does not mean it loses consciousness.

 

[Brakelite]

he said they will be cast into hell. where their worm does not die.

What is their worm? (it is not a worm, it is their worm)

A soul cast to hell is destroyed. that does not mean it loses consciousness.

Are you fully aware of what it is you are arguing for??
Are you fully cognizant of the nature of that which you are proposing??
Do you realize that your argument directly affects your appraisal of the nature and character of God.
You, and numerous others of course who happen to agree with you, are stating that the God of the universe, the God of love, mercy, grace, and truth, the God Who sent His Son to accept the death that we deserve, and suffered along with His Son more than anyone could possibly imagine, that same God, who created the lake of fire for the devil his angels, will deliberately work a continuous miracle in keeping billions of people alive in a continuous burning hell, for the sole purpose of making them suffer pain, anguish, and guilt without end. The scripture clearly declares Satan ceases to exist. And humans continue to live without any hope of even a hint of mercy and justice? Ever? This torture, for torture it is in any language, is the kind of punishment and evil that the worst of human despots could never even dream of. Is this the God of Calvary? Is this the God Who walked the shores of Galilee and healed all who asked in faith... Whether good or evil? Is this the God Who gave His own life for you? Is what you are attempting to defend, the character of that God?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Are you fully aware of what it is you are arguing for??
Are you fully cognizant of the nature of that which you are proposing??
Do you realize that your argument directly affects your appraisal of the nature and character of God.
You, and numerous others of course who happen to agree with you, are stating that the God of the universe, the God of love, mercy, grace, and truth, the God Who sent His Son to accept the death that we deserve, and suffered along with His Son more than anyone could possibly imagine, that same God, who created the lake of fire for the devil his angels, will deliberately work a continuous miracle in keeping billions of people alive in a continuous burning hell, for the sole purpose of making them suffer pain, anguish, and guilt without end. The scripture clearly declares Satan ceases to exist. And humans continue to live without any hope of even a hint of mercy and justice? Ever? This torture, for torture it is in any language, is the kind of punishment and evil that the worst of human despots could never even dream of. Is this the God of Calvary? Is this the God Who walked the shores of Galilee and healed all who asked in faith... Whether good or evil? Is this the God Who gave His own life for you? Is what you are attempting to defend, the character of that God?

Are you aware of what you are doing?

You are Arguing and attacking people on something you can not prove. What kind of attitude is this?

God proved his love by purchasing salvation for those people who will be cast to hell. That's his true love. He can not held responsible for them being sent to hell. They have no excuse.

Miracle? what miracle? Our souls are eternal. Just like the soul of the demons and satan himself. And your going to blame God for making them suffer? DO WHAT? he purchased their freedom. Their suffering is on them not God.

Sorry Bro. but once again, if you want to discuss what you believe feel free. But the nonsense we do not know God and we are this or that is out of line!

 

[Addy]

@Josho ... I would like this thread closed please. I have said my peace.