Carnal Christians ?

[twinc]

why are we often referred to as carnal Christians - is it because we have your precedents and priorities wrong viz physical/mental/spiritual instead of vice versa - twinc

 

[ScottA]

why are we often referred to as carnal Christians - is it because we have your precedents and priorities wrong viz physical/mental/spiritual instead of vice versa - twinc

"Christian" covers a lot of divers persons:

1. There are those who are new "followers" of Christ who are only "seeking" and otherwise are not committed. These are carnal.
2. There are those who have committed all, but have yet to receive the Holy Spirit. These are carnal.
3. There are those who follow a false gospel (those who love a lie rather than the truth). These are carnal and not rightfully called "Christian."
4. There are those who have believed in Christ and have also received the Holy Spirit, and therefore are "born again" of the spirit of God. These are not carnal, however, all do not walk in the spirit.
5. There are those who believe, have been born again of the spirit of God, and are a "new creation", and it is "no longer them who live, but Christ who lives in them." These have died to the flesh and live unto God and walk in the spirit, and are no longer carnal.

 

[Helen]

There are those who believe, have been born again of the spirit of God, and are a "new creation", and it is "no longer them who live, but Christ who lives in them." These have died to the flesh and live unto God and walk in the spirit, and are no longer carnal.

Excellent...very well laid out Scott. I have nothing to say...you said it!!

 

[twinc]

Excellent...very well laid out Scott. I have nothing to say...you said it!!

Excellent...very well laid out Scott. I have nothing to say...you said it!!

it goes unnoticed and unstated that little children are not carnal Mk 10;15 - twinc

 

[bbyrd009]

not what Mark is saying there imo; we are even told that people start sinning "from their youth" or "from a very young age."

 

[FHII]

it goes unnoticed and unstated that little children are not carnal Mk 10;15 - twinc

I'm afraid I don't see why you believe children are not carnal from Mark 10:15. Could you elaborate?

 

[twinc]

"Christian" covers a lot of divers persons:

1. There are those who are new "followers" of Christ who are only "seeking" and otherwise are not committed. These are carnal.
2. There are those who have committed all, but have yet to receive the Holy Spirit. These are carnal.
3. There are those who follow a false gospel (those who love a lie rather than the truth). These are carnal and not rightfully called "Christian."
4. There are those who have believed in Christ and have also received the Holy Spirit, and therefore are "born again" of the spirit of God. These are not carnal, however, all do not walk in the spirit.
5. There are those who believe, have been born again of the spirit of God, and are a "new creation", and it is "no longer them who live, but Christ who lives in them." These have died to the flesh and live unto God and walk in the spirit, and are no longer carnal.

where exactly are these to be found in their thousands - most Christians follow a false gospel of prosperity or despair - btw Christians do not have to be born again as Christians - twinc

 

[ScottA]

where exactly are these to be found in their thousands - most Christians follow a false gospel of prosperity or despair - btw Christians do not have to be born again as Christians - twinc

The children of folly are many, but the children of Abraham even more, like the sand on the seashore.

 

[twinc]

The children of folly are many, but the children of Abraham even more, like the sand on the seashore.

no more, no more, no never no more do Christian children need to reincarnate and be born again for Christ is the end of the road, the way and the ever open door - twinc

 

[ScottA]

no more, no more, no never no more do Christian children need to reincarnate and be born again for Christ is the end of the road, the way and the ever open door - twinc

?

 

[Helen]

no more, no more, no never, no more do Christian children need to reincarnate and be born again, for Christ is the end of the road, The Way and The Ever Open Door - twinc

Who are you quoting twinc?
A few more comers etc ...help us to understand it..
Not that I agree with the theology....
but yes indeed...He is the end of the road,,and the ever open Door.

 

[Jun2u]

Carnal Christians?

There is no such a thing as a carnal Christian! Either an individual is saved or not. There are none in-between (Ro 7:14; 8:7).

ScottA. said:

"The children of folly are many, but the children of Abraham even more, like the sand of the seashore."

The above of course is a false statement! This must be read in light of the whole Bible.

Zechariah 13:8-9 reads:

8. And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord, two parts therein shall be cut off and die, but the third shall be left therein.

9. And I will bring the third part through the fire and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God.

According to verse 8 above two parts (2/3) of the world will be cut off and die (judgment day). In verse 9 God will refine the third part (1/3) who are the believers, as silver and gold are refined.

So, in the two verses above, we learned how God will deal with the saved and the unsaved. There will be only a remnant chosen by grace in every country (1/3) while hell will heavily be more populated (2/3).

Romans 11:5 states "there is a remnant according to the election by grace."

Matthew 22:24:…"for many are called, but few are chosen."


To God Be The Glory

 

[bbyrd009]

There are none in-between (Ro 7:14

hmm. Yet chapter 7 seems to end pretty ambiguously there imo;
25...So then, with my mind I myself am a slave to the law of God, but with my flesh, to the law of sin.

seems pretty in between to me

13for if you live according to the flesh, you are going to die. But if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

those are pretty big ifs, it seems to me

 

[Jun2u]

hmm. Yet chapter 7 seems to end pretty ambiguously there imo;
25...So then, with my mind I myself am a slave to the law of God, but with my flesh, to the law of sin.

seems pretty in between to me

13for if you live according to the flesh, you are going to die. But if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

those are pretty big ifs, it seems to me

1 John 3:9

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him and he cannot sin because he is born of God.

Does this mean a saved person cannot sin after conversion? No.

Before I became saved both in my body and soul I delighted in my sin, but when I became saved there was a warring between my body and soul. What happened? When I first became saved I was saved only in my soul essence my body still lusted after sin (Ro 7:17-25) please pay particular attention to verse 24

The proof of all this is when a believer dies, in his soul existence he goes to be with Christ (2 Co 5:8), while his body goes back to the dust until it is resurrected to a glorified body on the last day. Then will his salvation be complete.

If there is such a thing as a carnal Christian then it would be likened to a Catholic doctrine of purgatory where supposedly a soul awaits his fate. What will happen to a carnal Christian if he dies in that state? Scripture tells us, "It is appointed for man once to die then judgment."

I hope this helps.

To God Be The Glory

 

[ScottA]

1 John 3:9
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him and he cannot sin because he is born of God.

Does this mean a saved person cannot sin after conversion? No.

It does...if you can receive it.

We should consider that just as it is now with new believers, during the time when Christ and the apostles preached, the word was mostly for the unsaved, and therefore spoke of the unsaved experience. But the verse above was for the knowledge of what was to be gained by coming to Christ. For this same reason, Paul even goes so far as to say, "All things are lawful." Really - all things? Again, these verses are not untrue or in need of finding a way to explain them away - they are the truth.

But if we look again to our flesh as if we had never died to it, as if we could actually return to a body that the scriptures say is dead and that it is no longer we who live, but Christ who lives in us - are we so foolish as if to think that Christ will now go with us back into a corpse and allow us to do what He would not do?

No...to be "saved", is to be transformed, to no longer be ruled by darkness and evil, but by a perfect Christ...from which there is no return.

So, then, if we continue or fall back into sin, we either (1) were never saved in the first place, or (2) simply don't understand how it is that a person can be saved and still sin. Let me explain:

When Christ overcame the world, did all evil stop? When He gathered followers unto Himself as his own body...since they/we are his body - does Christ therefore sin, because we are not perfect in the flesh? No. The victory is won. But we wait upon the death of that which is passing away. But we do so in arrears, after the fact of that which is retroactive...having been paid for and finished at the cross.

If we then feel guilty...we should, even though, "It is finished."

 

[bbyrd009]

Does this mean a saved person cannot sin after conversion? No.

i would suspect this "conversion" then

 

[Jun2u]

So, then, if we continue or fall back into sin, we either (1) were never saved in the first place, or (2) simply don't understand how it is that a person can be saved and still sin. Let me explain:



Please don't think I'm advocating to a after an individual is saved he now has a license to sin. Not at all.

Item #2 above is what I've tried to convey if this was not clear in my previous post. This is exactly what Paul (under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit) alluded to in Ro 7:15-25 as he cried, verse 24 "O wretched man that I am! Who shall deliver me from the body of this death."

Again I repeat, there is no such a thing as a carnal Christian. Either he is saved or he is not. Carnality is enmity to God!

To God Be The Glory

 

[lforrest]

Proverbs 25:28

"Like a city whose walls are broken through is a person who lacks self-control."

Walls were essential in ancient times, you need to control who gets into the city and protect it against seige.

Think of the Jews and how they were told to put the promise land to the sword. Yet they didn't and even were tricked into making treaties. It is like us when we allow sin to persist. They certainly paid the price, their idolatry lead to the destruction of Jerusalem and their exile to Babylon. It was only by God's intervention that they were able to rebuild the wall.

 

[ScottA]

Proverbs 25:28

"Like a city whose walls are broken through is a person who lacks self-control."

Walls were essential in ancient times, you need to control who gets into the city and protect it against seige.

Think of the Jews and how they were told to put the promise land to the sword. Yet they didn't and even were tricked into making treaties. It is like us when we allow sin to persist. They certainly paid the price, their idolatry lead to the destruction of Jerusalem and their exile to Babylon. It was only by God's intervention that they were able to rebuild the wall.

It is good to know the battles that were fought leading up to Christ's victory, but that was then, and this is now.

Christ has overcome the world and taken possession of those whom are His. If we are "saved" by this victory, "it is no longer we who live, but Christ who lives in us." Against such, "there is no law", nor did Christ commit any sin, nor can He...for in His death, He, and we who are "in Him" have been released, "set free from sin and death."

But just as this is true, so too, is it also true that there are those who are yet "unsaved" in the world. And just as Christ and the apostles preached in former times what was then "news", it is also [good] news now to those in search of His righteousness. It is now our commission, that we should preach the same, and that our witness be that "Christ has come in the flesh" - ours.

 

[Peanut]

1 Corinthians 3:3+ For you are still of the flesh. For while there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not of the flesh and behaving only in a human way?


Romans 8:6 For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace.

Question: "What is a carnal Christian?"

Answer: Can a true Christian be carnal? In answering this question, let’s first define the term “carnal.” The word “carnal” is translated from the Greek word sarkikos, which literally means “fleshly.” This descriptive word is seen in the context of Christians in 1 Corinthians 3:1-3. In this passage, the apostle Paul is addressing the readers as “brethren,” a term he uses almost exclusively to refer to other Christians; he then goes on to describe them as “carnal.” Therefore, we can conclude that Christians can be carnal. The Bible is absolutely clear that no one is sinless (1 John 1:8). Every time we sin, we are acting carnally.

The key thing to understand is that while a Christian can be, for a time, carnal, a true Christian will not remain carnal for a lifetime. Some have abused the idea of a “carnal Christian” by saying that it is possible for people to come to faith in Christ and then proceed to live the rest of their lives in a completely carnal manner, with no evidence of being born again or a new creation (2 Corinthians 5:17). Such a concept is completely unbiblical.James 2 makes it abundantly clear that genuine faith will always result in good works. Ephesians 2:8-10declares that while we are saved by grace alone through faith alone, that salvation will result in works. Can a Christian, in a time of failure and/or rebellion, appear to be carnal? Yes. Will a true Christian remain carnal? No.

Since eternal security is a fact of Scripture, even the carnal Christian is still saved. Salvation cannot be lost, because salvation is a gift of God that He will not take away (see John 10:28; Romans 8:37-39; 1 John 5:13). Even in 1 Corinthians 3:15, the carnal Christian is assured of salvation: “If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.” The question is not whether a person who claims to be a Christian but lives carnally has lost his salvation, but whether that person was truly saved in the first place (1 John 2:19).

Christians who become carnal in their behavior can expect God to lovingly discipline them (Hebrews 12:5-11) so they can be restored to close fellowship with Him and be trained to obey Him. God’s desire in saving us is that we would progressively grow closer to the image of Christ (Romans 12:1-2), becoming increasingly spiritual and decreasingly carnal, a process known as sanctification. Until we are delivered from our sinful flesh, there will be outbreaks of carnality. For a genuine believer in Christ, though, these outbreaks of carnality will be the exception, not the rule.