Catholics

[aspen]

Is the Catholic Church perfect?
It, like every other so-called "church" is made up of flawed, sinful human beings.

Is any of the tens of thousands of disjointed and perpetually-splintering Protestant sects perfect?

Comparing The Roman Catholic Church to churches that schismed from the RCC doesn't make sense.

It wouldn't make sense to for me to claim the LDS church is the only right church and then turn around and excuse its flaws by comparing them to the same churches

 

[BreadOfLife]

Comparing The Roman Catholic Church to churches that schismed from the RCC doesn't make sense.

It wouldn't make sense to for me to claim the LDS church is the only right church and then turn around and excuse its flaws by comparing them to the same churches

HUH?? I simply turned the question back at YOU:
Are any of the tens of thousands of disjointed and perpetually-splintering Protestant sects perfect?

You wanted me to say "Yes", so you could point to the sins of many in the Church - so I'm asking YOU the same question.

The CHURCH isn't flawed - just the people who comprise it.

 

[aspen]

My response is clear. Protestants broke away from Catholicism. You can't claim to be a superior church and when some points out the obvious (the imperfections of the RCC) and compare the flaws to the same churches you are claiming to be inferior.

Also, anyone who has the most basic understanding of The Reformer, knows that Protestantism have never claimed their churches to be authoritative - hence sola Scriptura

 

[Marymog]

No just the truth, dont belong to any reliigion just Jesus.

Do you have a photo of Jesus??Must have if hes stil in the flesh

Dear mjrhealth,

You make absolutely zero sense. I don't understand what you just wrote. A photo of Jesus?

There you go again. Defending your doctrine which is: I have Jesus and I need nothing but Jesus to know the Truth. I know Jesus therefore I have the Truth.

Mary

 

[BreadOfLife]

My response is clear. Protestants broke away from Catholicism. You can't claim to be a superior church and when some points out the obvious (the imperfections of the RCC) and compare the flaws to the same churches you are claiming to be inferior.

Also, anyone who has the most basic understanding of The Reformer, knows that Protestantism have never claimed their churches to be authoritative - hence sola Scriptura

The the "Reformer" was wrong.

The Bible itself NEVER claims to be our sole Authority. This is a Protestant invention.
In fact - it lets us know in NO uncertain terms that the Church is our Supreme Authority on earth. Not APART from the Word of God - but BECAUSE of it:

Matt 16:16-19
And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.
I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever YOU bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever YOU loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

Matt. 18:15-18
"If your brother sins (against you), go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have won over your brother.
If he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, so that 'every fact may be established on the testimony of two or three witnesses.'

If he refuses to listen to them, tell the CHURCH. If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector.
Amen, I say to you, whatever YOU bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever YOU loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

John 16:12-15
“I have much more to tell you, but you cannot bear it now.
But when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide you to ALL truth. He will not speak on his own, but he will speak what he hears, and will declare to YOU the things that are coming.
He will glorify me, because he will TAKE from what is MINE and declare it to YOU.
Everything that the Father has is MINE; for this reason I told you that he will TAKE from what is MINE and declare it to YOU.

John 20:21-23
Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the holy Spirit. Whose sins YOU FORGIVE are forgiven them, and whose sins YOU RETAIN are retained.”

Luke 10:16
Whoever listens to YOU listens to ME. Whoever rejects YOU rejects ME. And whoever rejects ME rejects the ONE who sent ME."

 

[Marymog]

My response is clear. Protestants broke away from Catholicism. You can't claim to be a superior church and when some points out the obvious (the imperfections of the RCC) and compare the flaws to the same churches you are claiming to be inferior.

Also, anyone who has the most basic understanding of The Reformer, knows that Protestantism have never claimed their churches to be authoritative - hence sola Scriptura

Hi Aspen,

I am not sure how you can say that they 'have never claimed their churches to be authoritative' when HISTORICAL FACTS prove you wrong. Read a history book or do a Google search about the violence The Reformers used to enforce their authority (doctrine) in the same way the RCC did.

Sola Scriptura is the doctrine which holds that Christian scripture is the sole infallible rule of faith and practice. The Reformers enforced THEIR INFALLIBLE INTERPETATION with excommunications, violence and executions just like the RCC did.

Mary

 

[aspen]

The the "Reformer" was wrong.

The Bible itself NEVER claims to be our sole Authority. This is a Protestant invention.
In fact - it lets us know in NO uncertain terms that the Church is our Supreme Authority on earth. Not APART from the Word of God - but BECAUSE of it:

Matt 16:16-19
And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.
I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever YOU bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever YOU loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

Matt. 18:15-18
"If your brother sins (against you), go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have won over your brother.
If he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, so that 'every fact may be established on the testimony of two or three witnesses.'

If he refuses to listen to them, tell the CHURCH. If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector.
Amen, I say to you, whatever YOU bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever YOU loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

John 16:12-15
“I have much more to tell you, but you cannot bear it now.
But when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide you to ALL truth. He will not speak on his own, but he will speak what he hears, and will declare to YOU the things that are coming.
He will glorify me, because he will TAKE from what is MINE and declare it to YOU.
Everything that the Father has is MINE; for this reason I told you that he will TAKE from what is MINE and declare it to YOU.

John 20:21-23
Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the holy Spirit. Whose sins YOU FORGIVE are forgiven them, and whose sins YOU RETAIN are retained.”

Luke 10:16
Whoever listens to YOU listens to ME. Whoever rejects YOU rejects ME. And whoever rejects ME rejects the ONE who sent ME."

You are like a magic 8 ball

You ignore everything in the posts you are reading except a keyword that you then turn into a tired, anti-catholic slur, you happen to have read up on and the trap fires....

"Blah,blah,blah...'authority'....blah, blah". This must be an attack on the authority of the Catholic Church! FIRE!


Who cares if that was the point of the post! You've suddenly produced the fight you've been looking for, right? If I wanted you type of bias, I can get it offline

 

[aspen]

Hi Aspen,

I am not sure how you can say that they 'have never claimed their churches to be authoritative' when HISTORICAL FACTS prove you wrong. Read a history book or do a Google search about the violence The Reformers used to enforce their authority (doctrine) in the same way the RCC did.

Sola Scriptura is the doctrine which holds that Christian scripture is the sole infallible rule of faith and practice. The Reformers enforced THEIR INFALLIBLE INTERPETATION with excommunications, violence and executions just like the RCC did.

Mary

Mary - oh I agree, the Reformers were authoritative, but they laundered it through scripture. In order to nreak away from Church authority, they had to find their authority elsewhere

 

[BreadOfLife]

You are like a magic 8 ball

You ignore everything in the posts you are reading except a keyword that you then turn into a tired, anti-catholic slur, you happen to have read up on and the trap fires....

"Blah,blah,blah...'authority'....blah, blah". This must be an attack on the authority of the Catholic Church! FIRE!

Who cares if that was the point of the post! You've got the fight you've been looking behind every bush for, right? If I want fair and balance I'll watch FOX propaganda channel

What are you talking about?
YOU asked me some questions and I answered them. Why all of the bitterness and evasion?

If you don't want to have a discussion - then why did you bring any of this up?
I've been fair with you - but it seems you're offended anyway. If you can't defend the things you've said - then just say so . . .

 

[Marymog]

Mary - oh I agree, the Reformers were authoritative, but they laundered it through scripture. In order to nreak away from Church authority, they had to find their authority elsewhere

In post #563 you said: "...anyone who has the most basic understanding of The Reformer, knows that Protestantism have never claimed their churches to be authoritative..."

NOW you are saying: "the Reformers were authoritative"

Which one do you want to stick with?

My point is The Reformers were no better and no different than the RCC when enforcing authority. You said the Protestants "have never claimed their churches to be authoritative". That statement is a flat out un-factual statement.

Mary

 

[BreadOfLife]

Mary - oh I agree, the Reformers were authoritative, but they laundered it through scripture. In order to nreak away from Church authority, they had to find their authority elsewhere

Then you have to ask yourself this:
WHO has the authority to establish a different authority that Jesus did?

If the Catholic Church was the Authoritative Church established by Jesus - who has the power to establish another Authority??

If the Catholic Church is NOT that Authoritative Church - then where is that authoritative Church?
Which one of the tens of thousands of perpetually-splintering Protestant sects is it??

 

[ScottA]

If that is true, what does Protestant mean? Is it just a word meaning ...what?
CATHOLIC comes from the Greek word Katholikos, which was later Latinized into Catholicus.
It means 'Universal', which in itself means, 'of or relating to, or affecting the entire world and ALL peoples therein'. It means, ALL encompassing, comprehensibly broad, general, and containing ALL that is necessary. In summation, it means ALL people in ALL places, having ALL that is necessary, and for ALL time.
It is infered in Matthew 28:19-20, "Go, therefore and make disciples of ALL nations...teaching them to observe ALL that I have commanded you; And behold, I am with you ALL days, even unto the consummation of the world. That is a statement of Universality, Katholicos, Catholicus, Catholic.

"proclaimed (KATAnggeletai) in the whole universe (en HOLO to kosmo)” (Rom. 1:8)
Thus the word KATAHOLOS or Catholic in English originated from Scriptures - Romans 1:8

"So the church throughout all Judea and Galilee and Sama'ria had peace and was built up; and walking in the fear of the Lord and in the comfort of the Holy Spirit it was multiplied." [Acts 9:31 RSV]

There the words "church throughout all" is translated from the Greek words "Ecclesia kata holis"

Thus the word KATAHOLOS or Catholic in English originated from Scriptures - Romans 1:8 and Acts 9:31, and inferred in Matthew 28:19

"Where the Bishop appears, there let the people be, just as where Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church."
St. Ignatius of Antioch's letter to the Smyrneans, paragraph 8, of 106 A.D.
Undoubtedly the word was in use before the time of this writing.

Other written records of the term "CATHOLIC" describing a character of the Christian Church:

Martyrdom of St. Polycarp 155AD;
Clement of Alexandria, Stromateis 202AD;
Cyprian, Unity of the Catholic Church 251AD;
Cyprian, Letter to Florentius, 254AD

One thing at a time:

I do not know all the details of the Protestant movement, but I suspect that we share a kindred spirit. Meaning that we reject and even protest against anything other than Christ being head of [his] church, knowing full well that the commission was given to "all who believe" under "One Master."

 

[ScottA]

"Adding the traditions of men" occur when you change the meaning of tradition. There are no added traditions. You make a straw man fallacy. Funny how this myth is always asserted but no "traditions of men" are ever identified. It's true we honor and respect certain people, the Bible tells us to do that, but to say they are revered over the risen Christ is highly insulting. Customs of reverence is not tradition nor is it worship.

Let me say it another way: It is the tradition of the Catholic denomination to revere a substitute for Christ on earth, against His commandments.

 

[ScottA]

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age.”

Therefore is a conjunctive adverb, it joins vs 18 with vs 19. Jesus gives the Church His very own authority to baptize and TEACH. This commission is not directed towards any individual believer but to the Apostles (Magisterium)
What year did Jesus suddenly decide to go back on His promise to be with us always?

That was not a field promotion. It was an order (a commandment)....and a court martial is coming. You are out of order.

 

[Job]

1 Thessalonians 5
22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.

 

[ScottA]

The Bible repeatedly teaches that the Church is indefectible; therefore, the hypothetical of rejecting the (one true, historic) Church, as supposedly going against the Bible, is impossible according to the Bible. It is not a situation that would ever come up, because of God’s promised protection.

What the Bible says is to reject those who cause divisions, which is the very essence of the onset of Protestantism: schism, sectarianism, and division. It is Protestantism that departed from the historic Church, which is indefectible and infallible (see also 1 Tim 3:15).

As division goes, the Catholic denomination is guilty of first blood: It was the Catholics who departed from the commandments of Christ to follow the flesh (Peter), rather than expecting the church to receive [directly] from the spirit of God, just as Peter had.

 

[BreadOfLife]

1 Thessalonians 5
22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.

Exod. 20:16
Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.

Prov. 12:22
Lying lips are an abomination to the Lord . . .

Oh, and, ummmm - WHAT do you call this??

If he's wrong - which one of the tens of thousands of you disjointed and perpetually-splintering Protestant sects are right??

 

[BreadOfLife]

As division goes, the Catholic denomination is guilty of first blood: It was the Catholics who departed from the commandments of Christ to follow the flesh (Peter), rather than expecting the church to receive [directly] from the spirit of God, just as Peter had.

Can you tell me WHEN the Catholic Church went astray with this "following of the flesh", as you put it?? WHEN did it draw "first blood"??

You must know.
EVERYTHING on earth has a beginning . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

Let me say it another way: It is the tradition of the Catholic denomination to revere a substitute for Christ on earth, against His commandments.

Really??
What do you tell God when He commands the following through His servant Paul??

1 Thess. 5:12
We ask you, brothers, to respect those who are laboring among you and who are OVER YOU in the Lord and who admonish you,

1 Tim. 5:17
Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of DOUBLE HONOUR, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.

 

[BreadOfLife]

One thing at a time:

I do not know all the details of the Protestant movement, but I suspect that we share a kindred spirit. Meaning that we reject and even protest against anything other than Christ being head of [his] church, knowing full well that the commission was given to "all who believe" under "One Master."

Catholics ALSO reject anything other than Christ being the Head of His Church - so what's your point??
The Pope is merely the Vicar or chief agent in charge of Christ's Church on earth.

Don't forget - the Church is NOT only comprised of those on earth. Those in Heaven are ALSO members of the Body and NOBODY is saying that the Pope is in charge of them.
Remember that it is Protestant sects who have evicted them from the Body and have forbidden asking them to pray for us.