Changing ones mind - forced or chosen

[FollowHim]

"no one, not even God Himself, can change your "mind""

The above comment can be read two ways. Someone is so stubborn, even if God spoke to them they would not change their mind, ie. their mind is under their control, or God chooses not to force or alter peoples thinking against their will.

It is an interesting point because there are some biblical examples

20 But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let the Israelites go.
Exodus 10:20

18 So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life.
Acts 11:18

25 Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth,
2 Timothy 2:25

16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit--fruit that will last. Then the Father will give you whatever you ask in my name.
John 15:16

12 Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God--
13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.
John 1:12-13

8 God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes so that they could not see and ears so that they could not hear, to this very day
Romans 11:8

The Lord seems to make some things stronger and emphasis what is rather than change one thing to another. The Lord warns people of danger and the consequences of their actions rather than pulls strings and changes how they think or where they are going.

3 But God came to Abimelech in a dream one night and said to him, "You are as good as dead because of the woman you have taken; she is a married woman."
Genesis 20:3

So on this basis a sinner will never be forced into heaven and made perfect.
It is impossible because it is against their will. So ones will as expressed today is ones will before the Lord, not what it appeared to be at sometime in the past or fictionally might be if different events occur in the future. God lives in the moment and who you are now.

Now if this is true, then certain theologies are actually mistaken and sinners are truly lost if not in the faith when they meet Jesus. So such an issue is not a minor, side issue one can discard, but foundational to are we truly in Christ or actually lost until be walk in faith and stay there.

 

[Helen]

God can indeed change minds and hearts. He did so in many places.

I love the little song about Israel ..." God did not make them to go against their will, but He just made them willing to go. "

Prayer is powerful too. In my life I have seen God change peoples minds , by nothing more than fervent prayer.

The only one who changed my mind about God was God Himself .

 

[FollowHim]

God can indeed change minds and hearts. He did so in many places.

I love the little song about Israel ..." God did not make them to go against their will, but He just made them willing to go. "

Prayer is powerful too. In my life I have seen God change peoples minds , by nothing more than fervent prayer.

The only one who changed my mind about God was God Himself .

I suppose there is a difference between discussion and showing and then choosing to change ones mind,, and having it forced upon one.

Some universalists imagine that everyone in the end will love God, it is just a matter of time.
I actually think things are more subtle and complex and people can refuse to accept certain views and trap themselves in a self-fulfilling trap. I have had such a conversation with someone, where the argument was used no matter what I said, I meant something else that just reinforced their position.

If one was to take over someones mind, then they are no longer themselves, free will has gone, which some theological positions seem to hold. Another option is time travel, back to the point of faith, where they die and are carried to heaven, because that is their true eternal selves. Unfortunately there later life testifies whatever happened it was not what they wanted.

 

[Grailhunter]

I suppose there is a difference between discussion and showing and then choosing to change ones mind,, and having it forced upon one.

Some universalists imagine that everyone in the end will love God, it is just a matter of time.
I actually think things are more subtle and complex and people can refuse to accept certain views and trap themselves in a self-fulfilling trap. I have had such a conversation with someone, where the argument was used no matter what I said, I meant something else that just reinforced their position.

If one was to take over someones mind, then they are no longer themselves, free will has gone, which some theological positions seem to hold. Another option is time travel, back to the point of faith, where they die and are carried to heaven, because that is their true eternal selves. Unfortunately there later life testifies whatever happened it was not what they wanted.

Hey that is some good questions. Some of us are kind of "mature" but who remembers before they chose to believe? What was "the thing or the event" that made the difference for you?

 

[DPMartin]

"no one, not even God Himself, can change your "mind""

The above comment can be read two ways. Someone is so stubborn, even if God spoke to them they would not change their mind, ie. their mind is under their control, or God chooses not to force or alter peoples thinking against their will.

It is an interesting point because there are some biblical examples

20 But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let the Israelites go.
Exodus 10:20

18 So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life.
Acts 11:18

25 Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth,
2 Timothy 2:25

16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit--fruit that will last. Then the Father will give you whatever you ask in my name.
John 15:16

12 Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God--
13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.
John 1:12-13

8 God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes so that they could not see and ears so that they could not hear, to this very day
Romans 11:8

The Lord seems to make some things stronger and emphasis what is rather than change one thing to another. The Lord warns people of danger and the consequences of their actions rather than pulls strings and changes how they think or where they are going.

3 But God came to Abimelech in a dream one night and said to him, "You are as good as dead because of the woman you have taken; she is a married woman."
Genesis 20:3

So on this basis a sinner will never be forced into heaven and made perfect.
It is impossible because it is against their will. So ones will as expressed today is ones will before the Lord, not what it appeared to be at sometime in the past or fictionally might be if different events occur in the future. God lives in the moment and who you are now.

Now if this is true, then certain theologies are actually mistaken and sinners are truly lost if not in the faith when they meet Jesus. So such an issue is not a minor, side issue one can discard, but foundational to are we truly in Christ or actually lost until be walk in faith and stay there.

na, na na na, people think according to what they think of what they experience hence what they know. so experience can and will change anyone's mind, what they think and think of life and especially God. Even though Pharaohs heart was hardened he would change his mind every time his kingdom would suffer great horrors and once the dust would settle he would change his mind again. pharaoh was pharaoh not because he was a very wise man, it had to be for other reasons. so your line of thinking is incorrect, God or any especially traumatizing experiences will change one's mind and will what they think there attitude and what they believe and trust, their expectation and how they perceive reality, whether they want to or not.

and if you think God wouldn't do such things to a person to get their attention if He so desire, you better think twice. just look at what He lets happen to the Jews.

 

[FollowHim]

Hey that is some good questions. Some of us are kind of "mature" but who remembers before they chose to believe? What was "the thing or the event" that made the difference for you?

I came to realise who Jesus was compared to my efforts, which were like a small half hearted change, compared to Jesus which was a full I am going to die for you, face the worst hypocritical liars you could imagine, and let them kill me without a complaint, because I love you all so much.
That changed my mind and heart, it put things totally in perspective and won over my loyalty.

I have taken though many years of having the layers of distrust, hurt, betrayal, removed to let me begin to walk in the ways of the Lord, openly and with a full heart.

 

[FollowHim]

na, na na na, people think according to what they think of what they experience hence what they know. so experience can and will change anyone's mind, what they think and think of life and especially God. Even though Pharaohs heart was hardened he would change his mind every time his kingdom would suffer great horrors and once the dust would settle he would change his mind again. pharaoh was pharaoh not because he was a very wise man, it had to be for other reasons. so your line of thinking is incorrect, God or any especially traumatizing experiences will change one's mind and will what they think there attitude and what they believe and trust, their expectation and how they perceive reality, whether they want to or not.

and if you think God wouldn't do such things to a person to get their attention if He so desire, you better think twice. just look at what He lets happen to the Jews.

The Lords raises kings and dashes nations. You only need to influence and adjust minor emphasis to get a big result.
The Lord could behave in ways you describe but He does not. He chooses messengers, prophets, preachers, people who love and serve, show the light and calm the way. He helps people grow and see the truth.

So forcing an individual to think or behave in a way like a robot is the point being made here.
And salvation and final perfection of the church is the issue. If one believes people are forced into the Kingdom, switched from hateful rebellious sinners into compliant loving followers of God, you have to believe free will is not involved, and God could save the world if He wanted to and have millions of forced people in the Kingdom of God.

The reason I say this, is to bring home the point there is no magic in the gospel, no secret agreement behind the scenes, it is out in the open for all to see, either you know Jesus and walk in His ways or you are lost. The end times is the total division between the enemies of God and Gods people. There is no place in between, because the beast is finally revealed and the rebellion gathers pace.

God bless you

 

[Grailhunter]

I came to realise who Jesus was compared to my efforts, which were like a small half hearted change, compared to Jesus which was a full I am going to die for you, face the worst hypocritical liars you could imagine, and let them kill me without a complaint, because I love you all so much.
That changed my mind and heart, it put things totally in perspective and won over my loyalty.

I have taken though many years of having the layers of distrust, hurt, betrayal, removed to let me begin to walk in the ways of the Lord, openly and with a full heart.

I imagine there are a lot of stories. Some associated with them being a child and Sundays at church. Some young adults living in the dregs and seeing the light.

 

[FollowHim]

I used to think if God chose us at our best time in life, and took us home, that would be salvation.
But what this ignores is we are complete whole, and when we stand before Him we are as we are.

But then you get the dilemma of a stroke, that removes part of you. So when you die, you are not your true self but just a part. Now if that part gained faith, the whole would not which is actually saved?

Now it may sound ridiculous, but take people with dementia and you want to witness to them. It is probably inappropriate, but I do have hope that the Lord in His grace might come and bring His peace into their lives. Gods ways are higher, higher than we can ever imagine. So what we are spiritually is always in His hands, and what is hidden and what we see are probably two different things. But it is definitely worthwhile considering that what we so easily dismiss, might actually be the critical point of our lives and those around us. God bless you

 

[Joseph77]

Now if this is true, then certain theologies are actually mistaken and sinners are truly lost if not in the faith when they meet Jesus. So such an issue is not a minor, side issue one can discard, but foundational to are we truly in Christ or actually lost until be walk in faith and stay there.

Right. (as Scripture clearly says totally, through and through, in perfect harmony with all God's Plan and Purpose)