Child Salvation

[Selene]

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I dont know but it looks to me like the gates and wall of Jerusalem have Jewish graffiti all over them.
Maybe the pope will have the places name changed to Vatican city, and replace the tribes and Apostles names with popes names instead.
He does have that authoritative power thing about being able to bind and lose what ever he pleases on earth and in heaven, shouldn't be a problem, right?
Just because its in the bible doesn't mean you can't form a new tradition and change the name to reflect your statement.

Hello Bud,

First of all, there is a Catholic Church in Israel, and this Catholic Church can trace their lineage to the Apostle James. My priest and a friend has been to Israel and visited the Catholic Church there. They gave me some pictures of the Catholic Church in Israel.

Secondly, the Pope is really the Bishop of Rome. St. Peter also called himself a bishop and bishops were appointed by the Apostles (See 1 Peter 2:25 and Titus 3:15) Why would the Pope change the names of places in Jerusalem? He is the leader of the Catholic people, not the Jewish peoople.

Also, I don't understand what new tradition you are referring to. Could you be more speficic?

O I don't for a minute think the catholic church is not a modern NT Levitical system. Complete with a high priest or "pope". And the Levis "priest and bishops" that operate just the same as they did in Jesus time. And we all know what He thought of them, blind guides, white washed tombs ect ect .

I agree with you in that the Pharisees were hyocrites, but they were chosen to sit on the chair of Moses, which is why Jesus told His disciples to respect the Pharisees. They were to respect their official position, but also told not to do what they do because Christ knew that they were hypocrites.

Matthew 23:2-3 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, [that] observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

As you can see, Jesus told His disciples to respect and listen to the Pharisees because it was God who instituted the seat of Moses that the scribes and Pharisees sit on. In the same way, the seat of Peter was also established by Christ when He built His Church (See Matthew 16:18). God bless.

In Christ,
Selene

 

[Templar81]

We're going off topic again guys do you want it to be locked.

 

[religusnut]

We're going off topic again guys do you want it to be locked.

LOCK IT I started the thread and as far as I am concerned it went off topic long ago. It was good while it lasted.

 

[Templar81]

It doesn't have to be locked. I know it was partly my fault for it going off, so why not just remove the posts from then on. There's no point in locking it if there's anything useful left to say about child salvation..

As far as I'm concerned child salvation is difficult because in order to accept Jesus you have to have a certain amount of udnerstanding, but the thought of a small child's soul going to Hell is totally abhorrant. For this reason the Catholic church came up with Limbo, which was mostly said to be populated by unbaptized babies,but back in those days infant baptism was the accepted norm and parents got their kds done very soon after they were born

Limbo btw is no longer offical Catholic teaching as JPII abolished it, now young childfren just go straight to Heaven even if they havn't been baptized.

I think that infant Baptism really does mean something as long as we grow up to fulfil the promises made on our behalf which we have a chance to renew at Confirmation.

 

[bud02]

Also, I don't understand what new tradition you are referring to. Could you be more speficic?

My first and only direct comment was the tradition of Mary as presented by the RCC. You do remember, and I see no need to open the Vaticans complete can of worms when one will do,

I agree with you in that the Pharisees were hyocrites, but they were chosen to sit on the chair of Moses, which is why Jesus told His disciples to respect the Pharisees. They were to respect their official position, but also told not to do what they do because Christ knew that they were hypocrites.

Matthew 23:2-3 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, [that] observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. As you can see, Jesus told His disciples to respect and listen to the Pharisees because it was God who instituted the seat of Moses that the scribes and Pharisees sit on. In the same way, the seat of Peter was also established by Christ when He built His Church (See Matthew 16:18). God bless.

I see and I could have should have posted this verse before your reply, its pretty easy to predict.
My reply is, if that is your defense, or proof of authority that needs to be followed then show me where Jesus or the disciples did as the Pharisees bid?

Jesus was referring to the law of Moses, not the traditions.
Same goes for anyone that disregards the word, and seeks to add to or take away. That reminds me.
Catholic Church no longer swears by truth of the Bible
http://www.timesonli...ticle574768.ece

 

[Selene]

My first and only direct comment was the tradition of Mary as presented by the RCC. You do remember, and I see no need to open the Vaticans complete can of worms when one will do,

I thought I explained my position on Mary. Let me ask you this. Do you believe that Jesus was born of sin?

In Christ,
Selene

 

[bud02]

I thought I explained my position on Mary. Let me ask you this. Do you believe that Jesus was born of sin?

In Christ,
Selene

I see you don't remember that death was the inherited part from Adam, not some sin.

NKJV Romans 5-[sup]12[/sup] Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— [sup]13[/sup] (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. [sup]14[/sup] Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

KJV [sup]12[/sup]Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Jesus being in or sharing in the true likeness of men, that He got from Mary is not an inherent sin as your church teaches. We are not born into sin.
Mary was an ordinary woman in the same flesh and condition as the rest of mankind. John tells us that those who teach that Jesus did not come in the flesh as of the spirit and teaching of anti-christ. 1 John 4

So no Jesus did not come in pre sin condition no man does. We all come in the condition that death will be the result, that's the inherent quality.

 

[Selene]

I see you don't remember that death was the inherited part from Adam, not some sin.

Hello Bud,

My brother, you misinterpret Sacred Scripture. Death is the penalty of sin (See Romans 6:23). Death was not inherited from Adam at all. Adam sinned and through his sin, death came because death is the penalty of sin. God told Adam that if he eats of the fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, he will die. The disobedience was the sin, and the penalty for that disobedience was death.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death. But the grace of God, life everlasting, in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin, and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned.

Scripture is saying that sin came into the world, and through sin, death ALSO came into the world because death is the penalty of sin. Death passed upon all men because all men have sinned. However, Christ did not sin, but He did die.

Romans 5:14 NEVERTHELESS, death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

"According to the likeness of the transgression of Adam"......transgression of Adam is speaking about "original sin" ....the sin that Adam committed. This likeness of Adam's sin was passed on even to those who had not sinned.

Romans 5:14 says that there are some from Adam to Moses who have not sinned; however, Romans 5:12 says that all men have sinned. If all men have sinned, then how can Romans 5:14 speak about people who have not sinned from Adam to Moses? Since death is the penalty of sin, one must then question why does death reigned upon these people who did not sin? Why were they not able to conquer death if they did not sin? The answer is the original sin. These people who did not sin from Adam to Moses carried the original sin; therefore, they could not conquer death.

Christ, on the other hand, was born without this original sin and did not have any personal sins. Furthermore, He is the ONLY Lamb of God. He was the ONLY one who could conquer death because He is the Life and the Resurrection (See John 14:6 and John 11:25).

Also, you did not answer my question. Do you believe that Christ was born of sin?

In Christ,
Selene

 

[bud02]

Hello Bud,

My brother, you misinterpret Sacred Scripture. Death is the penalty of sin (See Romans 6:23). Death was not inherited from Adam at all. Adam sinned and through his sin, death came because death is the penalty of sin. God told Adam that if he eats of the fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, he will die. The disobedience was the sin, and the penalty for that disobedience was death.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death. But the grace of God, life everlasting, in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin, and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned.

Scripture is saying that sin came into the world, and through sin, death ALSO came into the world because death is the penalty of sin. Death passed upon all men because all men have sinned. However, Christ did not sin, but He did die.

Romans 5:14 NEVERTHELESS, death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

"According to the likeness of the transgression of Adam"......transgression of Adam is speaking about "original sin" ....the sin that Adam committed. This likeness of Adam's sin was passed on even to those who had not sinned.

Romans 5:14 says that there are some from Adam to Moses who have not sinned; however, Romans 5:12 says that all men have sinned. If all men have sinned, then how can Romans 5:14 speak about people who have not sinned from Adam to Moses? Since death is the penalty of sin, one must then question why does death reigned upon these people who did not sin? Why were they not able to conquer death if they did not sin? The answer is the original sin. These people who did not sin from Adam to Moses carried the original sin; therefore, they could not conquer death.

Christ, on the other hand, was born without this original sin and did not have any personal sins. Furthermore, He is the ONLY Lamb of God. He was the ONLY one who could conquer death because He is the Life and the Resurrection (See John 14:6 and John 11:25).

Also, you did not answer my question. Do you believe that Christ was born of sin?

In Christ,
Selene

Also, you did not answer my question. Do you believe that Christ was born of sin?

Yes I did its right here.

So no Jesus did not come in pre sin condition no man does. We all come in the condition that death will be the result, that's the inherent quality.

Romans 5:14 NEVERTHELESS, death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

"According to the likeness of the transgression of Adam"......transgression of Adam is speaking about "original sin" ....the sin that Adam committed. This likeness of Adam's sin was passed on even to those who had not sinned.

Look I don't have years of collage, in high school I hated English class. But I do think I can read. The above verse is addressing sin before the law verse 13 says.
[sup]13[/sup] (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Now add your quote of verse 14

Romans 5:14 NEVERTHELESS, death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

With no law, NEVERTHELESS DEATH REIGNED, now thats the subject DEATH, why, because of Adams transgression. It doesn't say sin it says DEATH reigned. There was no sin for men to commit with out the law, the only "law" command given was to not eat of the tree. Paul does not say that sin reigned; death reigned. As much as you would like to think they are the same they are not. Hes addressing the obvious question, how can man sin and die with no law? Before the law came that is. verse 13 but sin is not imputed when there is no law Think on that for a moment.

You really amuse me you agree with the fact that death was the inherent part, not sin just as Paul does. Then you go right back and say

Christ, on the other hand, was born without this original sin and did not have any personal sins.

You use the word sin just as your church does in all of its descriptions and justification of Marys need to be preserved from original SIN.
The fact is no man is born with an inherent SIN he is born with the result, death. Just as Paul says, NEVERTHELESS, death reigned, from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned,

Don't forget verse 13 [sup]13[/sup] (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

You notice where sin is don't you? (For until the law sin was in the world), not in the descendants of Adam in the world, NEVERTHELESS DEATH REIGNED from Adam to Moses

 

[religusnut]

I do not really knowall of the Catholic teaching on this and really know enough to know that I don't care to know it all. I feel you need to look to the fact that there have only been two recorded instances of a man being on this earth with out a sin nature.

The first was Adam. He was created with out a sin nature but was able to be tempted and gave in to temptation.

The second was Jesus who did not give in. Jesus was born of the seed of a woman. Mary was no differant than any other woman she was just a woman. The reason he this fact of being born of a sin nature coming from the seed of the woman was that women were not held accountable of their sins and men were. Numbers 30 teaches that the father or the husband had rights concerning her situation while a son did not have that privledge. People were held accountable for the sins of the FAthers not the sins of the Mothers.........

 

[aspen]

The immunity from original sin was given to Mary by a singular exemption from a universal law through the same merits of Christ, by which other men are cleansed from sin by baptism. Mary needed the redeeming Saviour to obtain this exemption, and to be delivered from the universal necessity and debt (debitum) of being subject to original sin. The person of Mary, in consequence of her origin from Adam, should have been subject to sin, but, being the new Eve who was to be the mother of the new Adam, she was, by the eternal counsel of God and by the merits of Christ, withdrawn from the general law of original sin. Her redemption was the very masterpiece of Christ's redeeming wisdom. He is a greater redeemer who pays the debt that it may not be incurred than he who pays after it has fallen on the debtor.


Hope this helps - it is from the Catholic Encyclopedia.


Peace

 

[Selene]

Yes I did its right here.

Okay. I see now. You believe that no man was born with sin and that man did not inherit any sin from Adam. Instead, you believe that death was inherited. If a child was born with no sin and dies, then Jesus would not need to come to earth and die for us. This was one of the things discussed on this thread. Why would the lamb of God, who is born sinless, come down and die for us, if you believe that there were children born without sin and have died?


[quoteLook I don't have years of collage, in high school I hated English class. But I do think I can read. The above verse is addressing sin before the law verse 13 says.
[sup]13[/sup] (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Now add your quote of verse 14

Romans 5:14 NEVERTHELESS, death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

With no law, NEVERTHELESS DEATH REIGNED, now thats the subject DEATH, why, because of Adams transgression. It doesn't say sin it says DEATH reigned. There was no sin for men to commit with out the law, the only "law" command given was to not eat of the tree. Paul does not say that sin reigned; death reigned. As much as you would like to think they are the same they are not. Hes addressing the obviousness question how can man sin and die with no law? Before the law came that is. Think on that for a moment.

You really amuse me you agree with the fact that death was the inherent part, not sin just as Paul does. Then you go right back and say
Quote

Christ, on the other hand, was born without this original sin and did not have any personal sins.
You use the word sin just as your church does in all of its descriptions and justification of Marys need to be preserved from original SIN.
The fact is no man is born with an inherent SIN he is born with the result, death. Just as Paul says, NEVERTHELESS, death reigned, from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned, [/quote]

My brother, reading comprehension comes when one reads the whole passage of what St. Paul is saying and not parts of it. Death cannot reign if there was no sin because death came through sin. To understand what Sacred Scripture says, one must read the entire passage and not just certain parts of it. Romans Chapter 5 ended with this:

Romans 5:21 That as sin hath reigned to death; so also grace might reign by justice unto life everlasting, through Jesus Christ our Lord.

It is both sin and death that reigns, but only the stain of sin was passed on to man, not death. Death is the penalty of sin and can only come through sin. My brother, no where in my post did I ever say that death was inherited by man. Death was not inherited by man. It was sin - the original sin - that was inherited. Death cannot come through a man who has no sin. That is why Jesus was able to conquer death. He did not have the original sin nor any personal sins and He was the Life and the Resurrection who did not need any savior.

Don't forget verse 13 [sup]13[/sup] (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

You notice where sin is don't you? (For until the law sin was in the world), not in the descendants of Adam in the world, NEVERTHELESS DEATH REIGNED from Adam to Moses

You are saying that sin was not in the descendants of Adam? :blink: My brother, sin came into the world the moment Adam and Eve sinned, and the descendants of Adam also sinned. That is plainly seen in the Bible.

In each of the stories, the trouble begins with human sin. Adam and Eve ate of the fruit of the forbidden tree (2:16-17; 3:1-7). The man and the woman together violate God’s command. Cain assumes to himself power over life and kills his brother, Abel (4:8). The generation of the flood fills the earth with wickedness and lawlessness (the Hebrew term used here covers all kinds of social injustices) (6:5,11). Finally, the people of Shinar (in Babylonia) want to ignore God and make for themselves a great city, a great tower and a great name (11:4). These were the generations after Adam and as you can see, they committed the same sin.

The sin in each of these stories is one and the same, and it is named in the first story. The snake spells this out clearly for Adam and Eve, “You will become like gods!” (3:5). We, as human beings, as creatures of God, overstep the limits of creaturehood and prefer to play God instead. We reject being an image of God (1:26- 28). We want to be Number One. It is the sin of pride.

In Christ,
Selene

 

[bud02]

I do not really knowall of the Catholic teaching on this and really know enough to know that I don't care to know it all. I feel you need to look to the fact that there have only been two recorded instances of a man being on this earth with out a sin nature.

The first was Adam. He was created with out a sin nature but was able to be tempted and gave in to temptation.

The second was Jesus who did not give in. Jesus was born of the seed of a woman. Mary was no differant than any other woman she was just a woman. The reason he this fact of being born of a sin nature coming from the seed of the woman was that women were not held accountable of their sins and men were. Numbers 30 teaches that the father or the husband had rights concerning her situation while a son did not have that privledge. People were held accountable for the sins of the FAthers not the sins of the Mothers.........

You make it sound as thou women are exempt from sin or responsibility.

women were not held accountable of their sins and men were. Numbers 30 teaches

Could we say then that a man is head of the house hold and responsible, "accountable" to God for them. instead of "women were not held accountable of their sins"

So was Mary, and all women not held accountable, maybe just a poor choice of wording. It is speaking of vows not sin. And of course you do not vow to sin. You make a vow or pledge to one another and you are held accountable. Just as it is speaking of women making a vow and whether or not the father or husband accepts it or not. God then holds Him accountable to the approval or disapproval of this vow. If he breaks it then the LORD releases the woman. Its all about accountability not sin. If he later changes his mind is accountable. Why because the vow is made before the LORD.


Numbers 30
[sup]16[/sup] These are the statutes which the LORD commanded Moses, between a man and his wife, and between a father and his daughter in her youth in her father’s house.

 

[bud02]

oops

 

[Selene]

I do not really knowall of the Catholic teaching on this and really know enough to know that I don't care to know it all. I feel you need to look to the fact that there have only been two recorded instances of a man being on this earth with out a sin nature.

The first was Adam. He was created with out a sin nature but was able to be tempted and gave in to temptation.

The second was Jesus who did not give in. Jesus was born of the seed of a woman. Mary was no differant than any other woman she was just a woman. The reason he this fact of being born of a sin nature coming from the seed of the woman was that women were not held accountable of their sins and men were. Numbers 30 teaches that the father or the husband had rights concerning her situation while a son did not have that privledge. People were held accountable for the sins of the FAthers not the sins of the Mothers.........

Hello Religusnut,

God did hold Eve responsible for her sin.

Genesis 3:12 And the Lord God said to the woman: Why hast thou done this? And she answered: The serpent deceived me, and I did eat.

Both Adam and Eve did not want to take responsibility for their own actions. Adam blamed Eve and Eve blamed the serpent. But God said, "Why have YOU done this" making Eve responsible for her own actions. Both Adam and Eve were responsible for their actions and both were punished for it.

"Sins of the Fathers" does not mean "original sin." It simply means that children often follow the bad habits and sins of their parents. If a child grew up in an abusive home, then the child will also grow up to be an abuser. If the child grows up in a violent home, he/she will have the tendency to become violent because they learned it from their parents. If the child grew up in a home where one or both parents are alcoholics, the child will have the tendency to follow in their parents' sins.

In Christ,
Selene

 

[bud02]

Why would the lamb of God, who is born sinless, come down and die for us, if you believe that there were children born without sin and have died?

That is exactly what Paul is saying.

My brother, reading comprehension comes when one reads the whole passage of what St. Paul is saying and not parts of it.

My friend lets look at the whole verse context and see who is picking and choosing parts.


Romans 5
[sup]Nothing in the opening verse about inheriting sin. Because all sinned. thats action not passive. He outlines the context of the message.

12[/sup] Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— [sup]

The Next [/sup][sup]point is the law did not come until Moses. So how can one sin with no law? Sin was in the world but not imputed "enforced". Now notice it was in the world not man. sin was in the world but not enforced because there was no law. Notice what hes doing, hes identifying what and why all men must have a savor. Hes isolating death as the reason, not sin. Death went to all men from one mans sin. Not sin went to all men because one man sinned.

[/sup]13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

So we now see that death reigned even over those that did not sin, or death reigned even before the law. You cherry picked a part of this verse in your defense of sin is inherent at birth. (according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam)

14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

Again it says condemnation from one offense many died, not sin imputed to all at birth. And it says that one mans offense many died.
[sup]
[/sup]15 But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man’s offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many.

One offense resulted in condemned to all. Death was the result for all, threw the one that sinned.

16 And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which cameresulted in justification.

He repeats my point again. Death reigned even to those that had no sin verse 14
from many offenses
17 For if by the one man’s offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)

This draws it together

18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.

Now heres the verse you want quote in itself to support your interpretation. Verse 19

From the next verse 19 we see Paul now leads the listener to the law of Moses, the current condition all were made sinners, we started here but sin is not imputed when there is no law. ( Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound.). Everything above this is a pre Moses explanation. Like I said before I believe that this is addressing the question he surly came across. (How is it that the people that lived before the law of "Moses" were still found guilty without a law to break? But never does Paul say or even imply that sin was passed on at birth, it was death. From Adam to Moses death reigned to all men. Death the separation from God, the lost relationship that those born of the Spirit now have this relationship restored.

19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.

20 Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more, [sup]
[/sup]
You see from the previous verses, the one sin by Adam, reigned death to all men. Sin reigned in death. Sin affected all men in death by birth. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned

21 so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

You want to use verses19, 20 and 21 which are speaking of sin after the law came. and one other partial verse, verse 14 to indicate that sin was inherent. So you tell me whos cherry picking scripture or as you say "My brother, reading comprehension comes when one reads the whole passage"

But people will continue to read the word and not understand, just as people heard Jesus and failed to understand, nothing new under the sun.

 

[Selene]

That is exactly what Paul is saying.[/size]

Hello Bud,

St. Paul never said that babies were born without sin.

Romans 5
[sup]Nothing in the opening verse about inheriting sin. Because all sinned. thats action not passive. He outlines the context of the message.

12[/sup] Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— [sup]

The Next [/sup][sup]point is the law did not come until Moses. So how can one sin with no law? Sin was in the world but not imputed "enforced". Now notice it was in the world not man. sin was in the world but not enforced because there was no law. Notice what hes doing, hes identifying what and why all men must have a savor. Hes isolating death as the reason, not sin. Death went to all men from one mans sin. Not sin went to all men because one man sinned.
[/sup]

My brother, when sin entered the world, it also entered into man because man is part of the world. Sin separated us from God and that is why we needed a savior - so that we can be reconciled back to God (Col. 1:20-22).

Sin was in man from Adam to Moses. Cain killed his brother Abel. That was a sin. God flooded the world because God found wickedness in men except for Noah and his family. The people who built the tower of Babel sinned, having pride in their hearts. These are all sins found in men, but God did not attribute these sins (imputed) to them because the law was not given until Moses.

All men have sinned; therefore, death has passed upon all men (Romans 5:12) because the penalty of sin is death (Romans 6:23). Death is the penalty of sin. If a baby is born without sin and dies, that child would be able to conquer death and Christ would not need to come down in the form of man to save us. As you already know, no one has been able to conquer death except Christ. Those who did not sin from Adam to Moses were also not able to conquer death and resurrect from the dead. They remained dead. This only goes to show that those who did not sin from Adam to Moses did have a sin - and that would be the original sin. Only those who are pure from sin can conquer death simply because death is the penalty of sin.

Pure from sin means having absolutely no original sin nor personal sins. Adam and Eve were once in this state BEFORE they sin, and they did not die. They had eternal life in the Garden of Eden. After they sinned, they no longer had eternal life. They were separated from God and they died. Their sin brought them the penalty of death. All the infants and children from Adam to Moses who died were not able to conquer death and resurrect from the dead. These would be those who did not sin. The infants and children from Adam to Moses who died did not live long enough to commit any personal sins, but when they died, they could not conquer death. They did not resurrect from the dead. They were also not pure from sin because they carried the original sin.

In Christ,
Selene

 

[bud02]

Hello Bud,

St. Paul never said that babies were born without sin.



My brother, when sin entered the world, it also entered into man because man is part of the world. Sin separated us from God and that is why we needed a savior - so that we can be reconciled back to God (Col. 1:20-22).

Sin was in man from Adam to Moses. Cain killed his brother Abel. That was a sin. God flooded the world because God found wickedness in men except for Noah and his family. The people who built the tower of Babel sinned, having pride in their hearts. These are all sins found in men, but God did not attribute these sins (imputed) to them because the law was not given until Moses.

All men have sinned; therefore, death has passed upon all men (Romans 5:12) because the penalty of sin is death (Romans 6:23). Death is the penalty of sin. If a baby is born without sin and dies, that child would be able to conquer death and Christ would not need to come down in the form of man to save us. As you already know, no one has been able to conquer death except Christ. Those who did not sin from Adam to Moses were also not able to conquer death and resurrect from the dead. They remained dead. This only goes to show that those who did not sin from Adam to Moses did have a sin - and that would be the original sin. Only those who are pure from sin can conquer death simply because death is the penalty of sin.

Pure from sin means having absolutely no original sin nor personal sins. Adam and Eve were once in this state BEFORE they sin, and they did not die. They had eternal life in the Garden of Eden. After they sinned, they no longer had eternal life. They were separated from God and they died. Their sin brought them the penalty of death. All the infants and children from Adam to Moses who died were not able to conquer death and resurrect from the dead. These would be those who did not sin. The infants and children from Adam to Moses who died did not live long enough to commit any personal sins, but when they died, they could not conquer death. They did not resurrect from the dead. They were also not pure from sin because they carried the original sin.

In Christ,
Selene

All men have sinned; therefore, death has passed upon all men (Romans 5:12). Not all men are born with sin because of Adam.

Now interpret this.

13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.) 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

You just can't see the point here before the law came can you? 15 For if by the one man’s offense many died. And like it says in verse 14, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, When Adam sinned everyone who would ever be born would die, even those who did not sin according to the likeness of the transgression "Adams sin" of Adam. Like I said before there was no other law than, don't eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Im finished repeating myself If you don't understand that there were men that did not sin before the law, God did not impute it sin " verse 13 " because He had not yet said you shall not kill or steal ect. Would God hold men accountable before the command came? the 10 commandments? How did men sin with one law? then they were driven from the garden where the forbidden tree was. You see how death reigned to all men from one sin. Now men knew right from wrong but God had not spoken the WORDS. Thou shall not.

The Law came to break the curse of Adam "death"
What Paul is saying, is death reigned, He never said we were born with sin but rather Adams curse of death was imputed on all men. And all those until the law came were condemned to death. even over those who had not sinned. The law came to set a standard; to over come the unconditional curse of death to all men; threw Adams sin before the law. If the law had not come we would all still be condemned to death by Adams single sin. Do you understand now? The law came so that each man would personally transgress the law, to set a conditional standard for all men, so that men would no longer be under Adams cures of death, but would now be held accountable for their own sin. Jesus fulfilled the law. All men were condemned to death before the law came, the law came and now you condemn yourself in your own sin. There I think I have put it in words you can understand.

So now it is true as Paul says all have sinned. But no man knew what sin was before the law came.
All men have sinned; therefore, death has passed upon all men (Romans 5:12).
Do you now see the meaning in these words? ( therefore, death has passed upon all men ) Since the law all men have been responsible for their own sin and its result, death.

 

[religusnut]

All of this is very interesting. However a child that can talk will knowingly lie to you regardless of who's it is. They are jealous, and envious before they can talk. Are these not sins? If they are then they are not without sin. Just sayin.

 

[bud02]

All of this is very interesting. However a child that can talk will knowingly lie to you regardless of who's it is. They are jealous, and envious before they can talk. Are these not sins? If they are then they are not without sin. Just sayin.

So tell me how would you know that was a sin to God if He had not said thou shall not lie or covet?
By the power of His word, when He said, thou shall not lie, it became a personal offense before Him, every time someone lied.

Now compare this verse and God attitude about Sodom and Gomorrah.
Also notice how God says Abraham knows how to command his children and house hold.


Genesis 18
[sup]16[/sup] Then the men rose from there and looked toward Sodom, and Abraham went with them to send them on the way. [sup]17[/sup] And the LORD said, “Shall I hide from Abraham what I am doing, [sup]18[/sup] since Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him? [sup]19[/sup] For I have known him, in order that he may command his children and his household after him, that they keep the way of the LORD, to do righteousness and justice, that the LORD may bring to Abraham what He has spoken to him.” [sup]20[/sup] And the LORD said, “Because the outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grave, [sup]21[/sup] I will go down now and see whether they have done altogether according to the outcry against it that has come to Me; and if not, I will know.”

That underlined statement is a bit different from other verses after the law about the sins of Israel being before the Lord.
Or the pagan gods of other nations. After He said, “You shall have no other gods before Me."
As soon as God spoke the words of the 10 Commandments everything changed, sin was defined. These were now offenses, violations of Gods spoken word.

Isaiah 55
[sup]11[/sup] So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth;
It shall not return to Me void,
But it shall accomplish what I please,
And it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it.

Nothing directed at your comment Religusnut I'm just saying myself