Child Salvation

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religusnut

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Is a child born sinless?

At what point can that child go to hell unless it is born again?
I always hear people make the statement that every child that dies automatically goes to heaven. What determines that and when is the cut off mark?

What about the sins of the fathers? Does that play a part in that?

In some people groups that were in the Promised Land God instructed the Israelites to kill even the children signifying that they too were guilty....
 

Surf Rider

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This has been debated by the learned and by the ignorant alike. With both professing accurate truth in it.

Basics of the scriptures:
1--if there is a passage that seems to contradict other passages, then there is a problem with the reader's understanding.
2--if a passage that can be understood more than one way seems to contradict some very, very blunt and clear passages, then the understanding of the passage is incorrect.
3--if a passage is not as clear than other passages, the other passages have priority in determining the truth.
4--if a passage is a general statement, the more specific statements of the word have priority in determining the truth.

If these basics, no matter the subject matter, by they spiritual thing, physics, math, history, construction, engineering, linguistics, architecture, law, etc., are not adhered to, then all sorts of very, very serious problems ensue. Often that results in lawsuits in today's day and age.

Yet it seems that in regard to spiritual things, the very opposite of common sense seems to be the rule of the day. And this topic is no exception.

People often use a passage that very learned scholars clearly have issues with, with many of them outright professing that there are linguistic challenges that we do not have the understanding to fully dissect it with, in order to negate the very, very clear passages of the word of God that go against the personal beliefs of many Christians. My brethren, this aught not be! That can only lead to divisiveness and errant beliefs. Even secular disciplines understand this. Perhaps we should too.

Now, not even to get into various scriptures, for so many will completely ignore them, no matter what they say, let's just use a little bit of very basic, simple logic here...

1--If a child is born sinless, then they fall into sin. Thus, if they are sinless, then any infant death would have atoned for our sins. God was thus most foolish to send His son to die for our sins.
2--if a child is born sinless, then it was equally foolish for God to bring Christ into the world.
3-- if a child is born sinless, then it was equally foolish for God to miraculously bring Christ forth -- why the difference in how Christ was conceived, as there is then no need for any difference between Christ's conception and everyone else's?
4--if a child is born sinless, then abortion is indeed one of the greatest blessings imaginable -- therefore, why would God condemn the killing of humans (in this instance, infants, such as in partial-birth-abortions)?
5--if a child is born sinless, how is it that God is suddenly a respecter of persons based solely upon age, when there is no exception given on any basis?
5--if a child is born sinless, why are there so many scriptures that attest to the opposite of this?

#5 is no different that those who believe that all will be saved, using a few general statement verses to negate a whole plethora of very cleary statements to the contrary, and #5 is no different than those who state that homosexuality and Christians can be one and the same, even though scripture states that such go to hell and cannot partake of the kingdom of God, and #5 is no different than those who use one verse to negate a whole slew of verses in regard to God hating the wicked, as opposed to loving the sinner for hating the sin, when scriptures clearly also state that we sin because we are SINFUL, our very spiritual nature is wicked, from whence the sinful acts flow.

We sin because we are sinful: we are not sinful because we sin. And that is the basic truth taught by Christ and His disciples very repeatedly and bluntly. Why is it that so many do not accept the word of God on these things? We won't get into that here. A lion attacks prey because it is a lion. If it is a lion because it attacks prey, then tigers are also lion, dogs are lions, cats are lions, sharks are lions, etc.. The faulty logic is most readily seen when applied to nature, but do we throw that same logic out the window when it comes to the basic, simple spiritual things? Change the well, and all that flows from it will be changed. If the well is impure, the water that flows from it is impure, Christ said. So what was the solution? Change the well! The world seeks to change the stuff flowing out of it, and thus they assume that the well will then be changed. That doesn't work in nature or spiritual things. Yet Christendom has bought into the vain philosopies of the world, it would seem, and clearly so, on many fronts. And this topic is one in which the ways of the world are clearly seen by those who accept the blunt statements of the word of God.

So we are left with the same critical choice for everything: will we humble ourselves and state that God's word is correct, and our beliefs have been wrong, or will be remain in power in our own little spiritual bannana republics, and errantly use one or two scriptures wrongly to negate a whole plethora of very, very clear and blunt scriptures to the contrary of our beliefs?

We will know them by what they do in these most basic things when reading the word of God.

And when the scriptures, the very, very clear and blunt scriptures are given, we will know who's who by whether or not the fully accept them, and make their beliefs align with them.

Christ and the apostles repeatedly told us of those who will accept the word of God fully and bluntly, and those who will not. And the told us who their spiritual father is. Apollos is a great example of firmly believing incompletely, but when the word of God with blunt, clear statements was presented to him, he immediately changed. And those who did not, Christ lambasted and stated that they knew not God.

The beloved apostle spoke numerous times on that very thing, blessing the one group and damning the other group.

Apparently, God takes this far more seriously and accurately than many of us do.

This concerns me.
 

aspen

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Calvin claimed that we are born into total depravity. Many mainline Protestants are now persuaded that we are not born into sin at all. What we do know from the Bible is that Adam and Eve lost their fellowship with God because of their sinful actions and God through Abraham and Moses and His prophets has been the only one able to reach out to us (we cannot approach God on our own), which has led to reconciliation through the death of His Son. The fact is, we cannot be justified or sanctified without a relationship with God through a relationship with Jesus, nor can we have a relationship with God without Him reaching out to us. So, I guess the question is moot. Without God we remain unredeemed - whether we are totally depraved or mildly sinful or without sin (cognitively impaired, under the age of reason, etc) - God needs to redeem us (teach our hearts how to love through justification and sanctification) before we can know Him and spent eternity with Him.

Peace
 

Rach1370

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I think that in all things, especially those that trouble us the most, we need to trust Christ.
Can we answer some of these more difficult things in scripture? I would say no, not perfectly, as every time sometime tries human perspective slants it. Infants dying going straight to hell? That's about as troubling as it gets and pretty much all but the most depraved would label it wrong. But our God is infinite in understanding and wisdom, and when it comes to such things I know that He is completely sovereign and good. So I will trust Him and bring my thoughts closer to home....my own life, my kids lives, my loved ones....I think that is plenty enough!!
Rach
 

Surf Rider

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Calvin claimed that we are born into total depravity. Many mainline Protestants are now persuaded that we are not born into sin at all. What we do know from the Bible is that Adam and Eve lost their fellowship with God because of their sinful actions and God through Abraham and Moses and His prophets has been the only one able to reach out to us (we cannot approach God on our own), which has led to reconciliation through the death of His Son. The fact is, we cannot be justified or sanctified without a relationship with God through a relationship with Jesus, nor can we have a relationship with God without Him reaching out to us. So, I guess the question is moot. Without God we remain unredeemed - whether we are totally depraved or mildly sinful or without sin (cognitively impaired, under the age of reason, etc) - God needs to redeem us (teach our hearts how to love through justification and sanctification) before we can know Him and spent eternity with Him.

Peace

Correct. None come to the Father but by Christ. If we don't know him, for whatever reason, we cannot come to the Father.

God hated Esau before he was born, and after he was born, but loved Jacob. Even before Jacob was born. And God is this way, before the person even has any opportunity to do right or wrong, scripture states. Only the most depraved would deny the scripture that states this, let alone deny that God can be this way.

I have a handicapped son mentally. I see no exemption cards given in the scriptures. And what God does, no matter what it is, is just and holy and right. Life is not fair. God is God. And we rest in that. And we have hope, even for others, as they did for us. And it is all through Christ, or it counts for nothing. He can make vessels for dishonor, and vessels for honor. Even the vessels for dishonor are used so that the vessels for honor will appreciate His mercy upon the vessels of honor. And who is man, that he can reply to God, "why have you made me thus?" Who is man that can speak up to God? If our thinking doesn't fit the blunt scriptures, we are in error. No matter what we think otherwise, and no matter how we say that it just can't be that way.

Good post, Aspen.
 

Templar81

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traditionally 7 is the beginnin of reason and it was thought that no-one under that age was capable of mortal sin (sin that can send you to Hell),. In the middle ages and today in many third world countries parents have their children baptized when they less than aweek old. Now I know many of you hear are not advocates of infant baptism but that was in a much more superstitious age when infant mortality was a much bigger problem and still is in some countries.

At the age of seen Catholic children take their first Communion but before they can do that they ahve to have their first confession and also at 7 Orthodox children ahve to start having confession in order to recive communion as it is thought that under 7 they cannot sin and therefore do not need to confess.

For centuries the Catholic church taught that unbaptized babies went to limbo but John Paul II abolished it, though many Catholics find the idea hard to part with.

There is another old theory that unbaptized babies are baptized by angels, but that's a bit fanciful.
 

religusnut

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traditionally 7 is the beginnin of reason and it was thought that no-one under that age was capable of mortal sin (sin that can send you to Hell),. In the middle ages and today in many third world countries parents have their children baptized when they less than aweek old. Now I know many of you hear are not advocates of infant baptism but that was in a much more superstitious age when infant mortality was a much bigger problem and still is in some countries.

At the age of seen Catholic children take their first Communion but before they can do that they ahve to have their first confession and also at 7 Orthodox children ahve to start having confession in order to recive communion as it is thought that under 7 they cannot sin and therefore do not need to confess.

For centuries the Catholic church taught that unbaptized babies went to limbo but John Paul II abolished it, though many Catholics find the idea hard to part with.

There is another old theory that unbaptized babies are baptized by angels, but that's a bit fanciful.



1Co 7:14

(14)
For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.

Do you think that this might be an answer? Could the fact that the parents are believers have an impact either for or against a child's salvation up until the time that the child is old enough to make that decision to accept Jesus as his or her saviour?

Also we read in various places where people were to repent for the iniquities of their fathers..... Is it not a possibility that those of the righteous will be saved and those of the unrighteous will be damned?


 

Templar81

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I'm not sure but I've always thought that God treats us all as individuals rather than tarring several people with the same brush.

In Revelations the dead are judged and it says (Revelations 20:12)
And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

That ahs always led me to believe that salvation is an individual thing, for example we all accept Jesus as a personal saviour not just as the saviour of mankind as a whole so therefore it makes sense that people are judged on a case by case basis. If a small child dies in an unblieving household, it will not pay for its parents sin and likewise the other way round, except that the parents may be held accountable for not instillin ghte faith in their child.

With regards to sins of the fathers, did not Jesus himself say "Ithat he did not visit the sins of the fathers on the sons." As far as I'm concerned the idea of punnished whole generations is an old Testament theme and has no lace in Christian thought. The sin of Adam and Eve was visited on mankind and but with Jesus to reconcile us with God we are no longer guilty of it. I'm talking about original sin. No-one should ever have to repent of their father's sins. It is bad enough that we can stray into sin at any corner without knowing it, but to add sins to ourselves that we had no part in would be to deny that Jesus ahs freed us from the sins of our fathers.
 

religusnut

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I'm not sure but I've always thought that God treats us all as individuals rather than tarring several people with the same brush.

In Revelations the dead are judged and it says (Revelations 20:12)
And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

That ahs always led me to believe that salvation is an individual thing, for example we all accept Jesus as a personal saviour not just as the saviour of mankind as a whole so therefore it makes sense that people are judged on a case by case basis. If a small child dies in an unblieving household, it will not pay for its parents sin and likewise the other way round, except that the parents may be held accountable for not instillin ghte faith in their child.

With regards to sins of the fathers, did not Jesus himself say "Ithat he did not visit the sins of the fathers on the sons." As far as I'm concerned the idea of punnished whole generations is an old Testament theme and has no lace in Christian thought. The sin of Adam and Eve was visited on mankind and but with Jesus to reconcile us with God we are no longer guilty of it. I'm talking about original sin. No-one should ever have to repent of their father's sins. It is bad enough that we can stray into sin at any corner without knowing it, but to add sins to ourselves that we had no part in would be to deny that Jesus ahs freed us from the sins of our fathers.

There are many schools of thought on that topic. Truth of the matter is whether most want to admit it or not, certain sins run in certain families.

This thought of sins of the fathers makes many people bristle with anger. Also MOST people will tell you that when they accept Jesus Christ EVERY sin that they have ever committed is forgiven.

If those sins are forgiven, I propose to ask why do they still cause problems in our lives? HOWEVER when those sins are confessed and repented of there is relief.


There is a much over looked word in the Bible that most seem to now want to see today it is the word REPENT.

Oh also I am not necessarily talking about salvation here I am talking about sanctification. I wholeheartedly agree that we are saved by grace.

The love of God is unconditional. The blessings of God are very conditional. Therefore to walk in the blessings of God we need to walk in repentance.

When I get time later today I will look at starting another thread on something associated with this. It will be another interesting topic of discussion.
 

Tzara

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Hi, religusnut, glad to see you posting on this religion forum. A better venue for your lessons than the other one, right?

I thought I would add my opinions to the debate on this topic. It is something people of faith have debated for a long time and no general consensus of opinion speaks for all on the subject.

One has only to observe a young child who is not being taught manner, respect or ever disciplined for anything to understand human nature even in an infant or young child. It's all about "I" and "me."

I personally do not believe in infant baptism nor in young children too fully understand what is involved in making such a commitment and to whom. Many people speak of the "age of accountability" of about 12 years of age, based on the age of Jesus when he was found questioning the religious leaders in the Temple. But not all children gain the same maturity at that age or any other age. Each peson is different and much of his knowlledge and spiritual maturity depends on his environment. A young child raised in a Christian home and in the church better understands than one not raised in such an environment.

Therefore, no set age or rule applies to each child. I like the approach taken by many pastors. They accept the child's profession of faith but requires the child attend a special class for new believers before taking the next step of baptism. I believe this approach is a good one.

We are all born under the curse of sin, including babies, and I have never even tried to judge or decide if they go to heaven when they die. I believe there are some things known only to God.








Is a child born sinless?

At what point can that child go to hell unless it is born again?
I always hear people make the statement that every child that dies automatically goes to heaven. What determines that and when is the cut off mark?

What about the sins of the fathers? Does that play a part in that?

In some people groups that were in the Promised Land God instructed the Israelites to kill even the children signifying that they too were guilty....
[/quote]
 

gregg

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HAVE YOU EVER THOUGHT who would be taught during the 1000 years, and why satin will be loosed to tempt them? a child shall lay with a lion? WE ALL MUST HEAR AND WE ALL ARE TRIED. No one can come to God except through Jesus.Sin has been passed down since adam and only through Jesus can it be cleansed. no exceptions. :rolleyes: we all must make a choice weather big or little before we see God. :D
 

aspen

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I tend to see people as self-serving, rather than sinful in the traditional sense of being depraved. We are born dependent, yet as we grow, we develop more self-reliance, which leads us farther away from our neighbors and God. It seems to me that Jesus came to teach us how to rely on and contribute to the Body of Christ, which we were originally created to be apart of. In this schema, sin is private ownership, radical individuality, extreme self-reliance - all forms of pride.

Peace
 

religusnut

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HAVE YOU EVER THOUGHT who would be taught during the 1000 years, and why satin will be loosed to tempt them? a child shall lay with a lion? WE ALL MUST HEAR AND WE ALL ARE TRIED. No one can come to God except through Jesus.Sin has been passed down since adam and only through Jesus can it be cleansed. no exceptions. :rolleyes: we all must make a choice weather big or little before we see God. :D


So you and some of the others then are saying till a child gets old enough to make that decision on it's own that it is lost with no hope of salvation?
 

Tzara

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So you and some of the others then are saying till a child gets old enough to make that decision on it's own that it is lost with no hope of salvation?




Not on his or her own, in my opinion, but old enough to understand the plan of salvation when explained to him or her. And the level of understanding depends on the maturity of the child and to a large degree the environment in which the child was raised. All of these can be contributing factors. I believe no child, and in some cases adults, can fully understand without someone showing them the Way, the Truth and the Life.
 

religusnut

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Not on his or her own, in my opinion, but old enough to understand the plan of salvation when explained to him or her. And the level of understanding depends on the maturity of the child and to a large degree the environment in which the child was raised. All of these can be contributing factors. I believe no child, and in some cases adults, can fully understand without someone showing them the Way, the Truth and the Life.


If that is the case then what is your opinion of the 50 to 60 million that have been aborted? Most people want to believe and teach that they are all in heaven today. If that is the case then abortion is not as bad a thing as we all say it is and stand against.
 

Selene

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Is a child born sinless?

At what point can that child go to hell unless it is born again?
I always hear people make the statement that every child that dies automatically goes to heaven. What determines that and when is the cut off mark?

What about the sins of the fathers? Does that play a part in that?

In some people groups that were in the Promised Land God instructed the Israelites to kill even the children signifying that they too were guilty....

Hi Religusnut,

In my faith, we are taught that children are born without any personal sins, but they are born with what is called "original sin." Original sin has two meanings: 1) the sin committed by Adam and Eve and 2) the hereditary stain with which we are born on account of our origin or descent from Adam. It is the second definition that all children were born with. According to St. Augustine "the deliberate sin of the first man is the cause of original sin" (De nupt. et concup., II, xxvi, 43). It is the hereditary stain that is dealt with here.

We are taught that children do not have any personal sins. The original sin is not a personal sin. If children were born sinless, and they were killed, Christ does not need to come down to earth in the form of man and die for us. Because children do not have any personal sins and only the original sin, if they die, we can only comfort ourselves with Jesus words in the following verses:

Matthew 19:13-14 Then were little children presented to him, that he should impose hands upon them and pray. And the disciples rebuked them. But Jesus said to them: Suffer the little children and forbid them not to come to me: for the kingdom of heaven is for such.

In Christ,
Selene
 

religusnut

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Hi Religusnut,

In my faith, we are taught that children are born without any personal sins, but they are born with what is called "original sin." Original sin has two meanings: 1) the sin committed by Adam and Eve and 2) the hereditary stain with which we are born on account of our origin or descent from Adam. It is the second definition that all children were born with. According to St. Augustine "the deliberate sin of the first man is the cause of original sin" (De nupt. et concup., II, xxvi, 43). It is the hereditary stain that is dealt with here.

We are taught that children do not have any personal sins. The original sin is not a personal sin. If children were born sinless, and they were killed, Christ does not need to come down to earth in the form of man and die for us. Because children do not have any personal sins and only the original sin, if they die, we can only comfort ourselves with Jesus words in the following verses:

Matthew 19:13-14 Then were little children presented to him, that he should impose hands upon them and pray. And the disciples rebuked them. But Jesus said to them: Suffer the little children and forbid them not to come to me: for the kingdom of heaven is for such.

In Christ,
Selene
Good post Selene.

I have only been on this forum for a short time and I definitely enjoy it here. I like to ask questions like that and get other people's input. it is very thought provoking and normally is a learning experience for all that are willing to participate. This thing of Child Salvation is an argument probably as old as Christianity or older. I look forward to seeing further input on this matter.

Nutt.
 

gregg

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So you and some of the others then are saying till a child gets old enough to make that decision on it's own that it is lost with no hope of salvation? NO :rolleyes: thats not my thoughts.I believe everyone will have a oppurtunity to except JESUS. why do you think he told the man on the cross he would see him that day in paradize.he went there to give them a choice to except him or not. they to needed to except Christ. Why did Jesus talk with moses and e on the mount- to tell them to tell THEM he was coming. why else. :rolleyes: PRAISE GOD :D
 

bud02

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Hi Religusnut,

In my faith, we are taught that children are born without any personal sins, but they are born with what is called "original sin." Original sin has two meanings: 1) the sin committed by Adam and Eve and 2) the hereditary stain with which we are born on account of our origin or descent from Adam. It is the second definition that all children were born with. According to St. Augustine "the deliberate sin of the first man is the cause of original sin" (De nupt. et concup., II, xxvi, 43). It is the hereditary stain that is dealt with here.

We are taught that children do not have any personal sins. The original sin is not a personal sin. If children were born sinless, and they were killed, Christ does not need to come down to earth in the form of man and die for us. Because children do not have any personal sins and only the original sin, if they die, we can only comfort ourselves with Jesus words in the following verses:

Matthew 19:13-14 Then were little children presented to him, that he should impose hands upon them and pray. And the disciples rebuked them. But Jesus said to them: Suffer the little children and forbid them not to come to me: for the kingdom of heaven is for such.

In Christ,
Selene

So then why is it that your church teaches that Mary was excluded from original sin or its stain?
Along with Mary never having any personal sin.
Why does not God do this for everyman / woman? And just forgo the need for a savor?

If children were born sinless, and they were killed, Christ does not need to come down to earth in the form of man and die for us. Because children do not have any personal sins and only the original sin, if they die, we can only comfort ourselves with Jesus words in the following verses:
 

Templar81

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mary needed to be a pure vessal in order for Jesus to bve born from her. Thias is the doctrine of the Immaculate conception of Mary. I can believe it but I can't really explain it any further I suppose if God wants to have someone born without original sin then he's perfectly capable of making that happen.