Choice Of Scriptures About Choice.

Discussion in 'Christian Debate Forum' started by Stumpmaster, Dec 19, 2009.

  1. Stumpmaster

    Stumpmaster New Member

    Some Scriptures I am reading indicate that God has given us the ability to make choices, and these have predestined consequences.

    Deuteronomy 30:19
    (19) I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse: therefore choose life, that you may live, you and your seed;

    Joshua 24:14-27
    (14) Now therefore fear Jehovah, and serve him in sincerity and in truth; and put away the gods which your fathers served beyond the River, and in Egypt; and serve you Jehovah.

    (15) And if it seem evil unto you to serve Jehovah, choose you this day whom you will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve Jehovah.
    (16) And the people answered and said, Far be it from us that we should forsake Jehovah, to serve other gods;(17) for Jehovah our God, He it is that brought us and our fathers up out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage, and that did those great signs in our sight, and preserved us in all the way wherein we went, and among all the peoples through the midst of whom we passed;
    (18) and Jehovah drove out from before us all the peoples, even the Amorites that dwelt in the land: therefore we also will serve Jehovah; for He is our God.
    (19) And Joshua said unto the people, You cannot serve Jehovah; for He is a holy God; He is a jealous God; He will not forgive your transgression nor your sins.
    (20) If you forsake Jehovah, and serve foreign gods, then He will turn and do you evil, and consume you, after that He has done you good.
    (21) And the people said unto Joshua, Nay; but we will serve Jehovah.
    (22) And Joshua said unto the people, You are witnesses against yourselves that you have chosen Jehovah, to serve Him. And they said, We are witnesses.
    (23) Now therefore put away, said He, the foreign gods which are among you, and incline your heart unto Jehovah, the God of Israel.
    (24) And the people said unto Joshua, Jehovah our God will we serve, and unto His voice will we hearken.(25) So Joshua made a covenant with the people that day, and set them a statute and an ordinance in Shechem.(26) And Joshua wrote these words in the book of the law of God; and he took a great stone, and set it up there under the oak that was by the sanctuary of Jehovah.
    (27) And Joshua said unto all the people, Behold, this stone shall be a witness against us; for it has heard all the words of Jehovah which He spake unto us: it shall be therefore a witness against you, lest you deny your God.

    Job 34:1-4
    (1) Furthermore Elihu answered and said,

    (2) Hear my words, O you wise men; and give ear unto me, you that have knowledge.
    (3) For the ear tries words, as the mouth tastes meat.
    (4) Let us choose to us judgment: let us know among ourselves what is good.

    (12) What man is he that fears the LORD? him shall He teach in the way that he shall choose.

    Proverbs 1:29
    (29) For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:

    Proverbs 3:31
    (31) Envy not the oppressor, and choose none of his ways.

    Isaiah 56:4
    (4) For thus saith the LORD unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant;

    Isaiah 65:12
    (12) Therefore will I number you to the sword, and you shall all bow down to the slaughter: because when I called, you did not answer; when I spake, you did not hear; but did evil before mine eyes, and did choose that wherein I delighted not.

    Philippians 1:21-24
    (21) For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.

    (22) But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not.
    (23) For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:
    (24) Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.
  2. whirlwind

    whirlwind New Member

    So, you are not Calvinistic in your thinking? ;D
  3. Benoni

    Benoni New Member

    None of these verses speak of choice in the salvation experence. Most of these verse are OT, salvation happened because of the blood of Jesus and Calvary happened in the NT.

    Philippians 1:21-24 is speaking of someone who is already saved and choose Christ over the flesh.

    Man does not have a choice or freewill to choose God, it is God's spirit that must quicken or draw the person. Then and only then can the person choose. Yes man has a freewill and little to no choice but to sin, that is his nature sence God caused the fall.
  4. Stumpmaster

    Stumpmaster New Member

    The verses clearly show that God has created human beings with the ability to make choices.
  5. Benoni

    Benoni New Member

    Of course it is does Paul had been saved for about thirty years, Paul was saved in about 33AD and Philippians was written in 61-63 AD. What this verse does not show is Paul being saved by freewill or choice. Man can choose a pepsi over a coke, can choose little things, but man does not choose his parents, his color of skin where he was born or his own salvation. There is not one verse in God's Word that decares this false doctrine. In fact the Bible teaches to the contrary.

    Faith comes only after God quicken the carnal man who is dead in trespasses and sin. Notice the context of Eph. 2

    Eph, 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

    (Eph. 6:17). Then the writer to the Hebrews declares that the sword of God’s word is "QUICK ."Quick means living and active — LIFE-GIVING! "For the word of God that speaks is alive and full of power — making it active, operative, energizing and effective; it is sharper than any two-edged sword" (Heb. 4:12, Amplified).

    2Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
    3Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
    4But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
    5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
    6And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
    7That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
    8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
    9Not of works, lest any man should boast

  6. Guestman

    Guestman Member

    Everyone has free will or choice. In the Garden of Eden, freedom of choice was before Adam and Eve to either abstain from eating of the "tree of knowledge of good and bad" and live forever, or to partake of the "tree" and reap the consequences, to "positively die."(Gen 2:17) No one is predestined by God to either live or die. The apostle Paul wrote: "Consequently, my beloved ones, in the way that you have always obeyed, not during my presence only, but now much more readily during my absence, keep working out your own salvation with fear and trembling."(Phil 2:12) Thus, all have the opportunity to ' work out their own salvation with fear and trembling. '

    Jesus said it succinctly: "Go in through the narrow gate; because broad and spacious is the road leading off into destruction, and many are the ones going in through it; whereas narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are the ones finding it."(Matt 7:13, 14) Freedom of choice is before all, whether to travel, down "the road leading off into destruction", or to take "the road leading off into life." Sadly, the majority has chosen "the road leading off into destruction".

    Thus, it is imperative that a person "fear Jehovah and serve him in faultlessness and in truth"(Josh 24:14), "choos(ing) for yourselves today who you will serve, whether the gods" of the nations or Jehovah.(Josh 24:15) The churches have been at the forefront of impeding people from knowing Jehovah, the Supreme Sovereign, by following the Jews, who developed a superstitous attitude toward the use of God's name, and some Bible translators are guilty of removing God's name of Jehovah from their Bibles and supplanting it with "Lord". Jesus said of the religious leaders of his day, the Pharisees: "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you shut up the kingdom of the heavens before men; for you yourselves do not go in, neither do you permit those on their way in to go in."(Matt 23:13)
  7. Benoni

    Benoni New Member

    WRONG... God is sovereign and he is Lord over ALL things including the fall, including the curse and including the devil. The devil has no power at all unless God ordains it.

    God took the blame for the curse, and the fall and He will also did it with hope.

    It was God who lowered Adam, it was God who placed Adam in the Garden, it was God who placed the tree of good and evil which he created, it was God who put a deceiver, a man slayer, a murderer in the garden, it was God who made Adam an Eve innocent. Little Adam and Eve had not choice: “Against its will, all creation was subjected to God’s curse” .

    Man has no choose, freewill to follow God; in fact the Bible teaches totally too contrary. It was God who caused the fall. And it is God who has a plan to fix it.

    It follows then just as the result of a single transgression is a condemnation which to the whole race, so also is the result of a single degree of righteousness is a life giving acquittal which extends to the whole race. (19) for as thought the disobedience of one individual the mass of mankind were constituted as sinners, so also though the obedience of one, the mass of mankind will be constituted righteous. Now law was brought in later on so that the transgression might increase, but sin increased, grace is overflowed.

    Ps. 90:1-3. "Lord, You have been our dwelling place in all generations. Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever You have formed the earth or the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, You are God. You (God) turn man to destruction; and say return you children of men.

    God knew Eve was going to sin long before she even was created; you see it is not the fall that matters it is the process of redemption God is after.
  8. Stumpmaster

    Stumpmaster New Member

    Funny how the word "if" in Scripture keeps implying choice. Remember, faith without works is dead, not that we boast of being SAVED by works, but our faith is living if we have them.

    Matthew 16:24
    (24) Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

    Matthew 16:25-26
    (25) For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
    (26) For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

    Colossians 1:21-23
    (21) And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now has He reconciled
    (22) In the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in His sight:
    (23) If you continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which you have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

    2Timothy 2:12-13
    (12) If we suffer, we shall also reign with Him: if we deny Him, He also will deny us:
    (13) If we believe not, yet He abides faithful: He cannot deny Himself.

    Hebrews 3:6
    (6) But Christ as a son over His own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

    Hebrews 3:7
    (7) Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost says, To day if you will hear his voice,

    Hebrews 3:14
    (14) For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

    Hebrews 6:4-6
    (4) For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
    (5) And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
    (6) If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put Him to an open shame.

    2Peter 2:20
    (20) For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

    1John 2:3
    (3) And hereby we do know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.

    1John 2:24
    (24) Let that therefore abide in you, which you have heard from the beginning. If that which you have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, you also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.

    Revelation 3:20
    (20) Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
  9. Benoni

    Benoni New Member

    Now lets do a little twisting and spinning and soon God’s Word will become what we want it, seeing there is no foundation in the words “freewill” or “choice” lets now use the word “if”?

    Let us look at Ephesians 2 a little closer seeing you mentioned “faith without works is dead”. How do you get faith?

    I like the amplified version for Eph 2:8

    Ephesians 2:8For it is by free grace (God's unmerited favor) that you are saved (delivered from judgment and made partakers of Christ's salvation) through [your] faith. And this [salvation] is not of yourselves [of your own doing, it came not through your own striving], but it is the gift of God;

  10. Benoni

    Benoni New Member

    These are all awesome verses but you are assuming they are exclusively in reference to man’s initial salvation, which you are assuming. Seeing there is no reference to freewill or choice or no reverence to these verses speaking to the lost, this is all your assumption.

    Again I look at your Matthew 16:24 this verse was directed at the disciples who Jesus already called, do your home work, every one of Jesus disciples he went around and asked them to follow him. Later God’s Spirit even blinded Saul and knocked him off his horse, not if that is not a case of not having a choice or freewill. Besides any verse in refernce written before Jesus death on Calvary cannot not have a reference point in savation for Jesus blood had not been shed yet.

  11. Benoni

    Benoni New Member

    John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw (Greek drag) him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

    NO MAN….

    Draw… Drag same thing it means force. Does anyone have a freewill when he is being dragged? I do not care what religious logic you believe in. Here is a chance for you to look at God’s Word with no preconceived idealism (the narrow way).

    Carnal man is a slave to sin; and not only does he not have a freewill or choice to receive the things of God it is his nature to totally reject all things of God and that is the way God created him. The carnal man is dead; when Adam died we all died; but Adam did not die physically the moment of the curse; he live physically until

    Genesis 5:5 and was 930 years old.
    But spiritual death happened to him and Eve; they lost that communion with the Father in heaven. I believe God’s glory slowly departed early men in Genesis that is why they live for so long.

    Can a dead man see, hear, smell, taste; etc. No this is double true to a spiritual dead man who cannot see, hear the things of God. A lot of our religious brothers are pretty dead too. Just because you are a believer does not stop you from being carnal.

    If God does not quicken you; you are spiritually dead and are totally incapable of receiving anything from God.
  12. Stumpmaster

    Stumpmaster New Member

    Being chosen as disciples didn't guarantee salvation to them all.

    John 6:70
    (70) Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

    I have no problem with the choice of who is saved being God's, nor do I have a problem, as do some, with the purpose of God's foreknowledge in His choosing whom to save. There would be no point in Scripture referring to God's foreknowledge if everything was predestined without it being of primary significance.

    What point would there be in having a dimension of foreknowledge if it is pre-empted by predestination?
  13. whirlwind

    whirlwind New Member


    [John 6:44] tells us about the MAN CHILD. The very elect. They are the "no MAN can come to Me, except the Father Which hath sent Me draw him."

    John 6:45-47 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God.' Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto Me. Not that any man hath seen the Father, save He Which is of God, He hath seen the Father. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on Me hath everlasting life. ​

    There are many that "believeth on" Him and they have....everlasting life. They are the "many called," but it is the "few chosen" that are the very elect, the man child, the first fruits. They are those that hear and see...they are "taught of God." What is their allow the Spirit to speak through them to bring others to Him so they too have "everlasting life." Those "firstfruits" are born in the last days (last [in the last days] shall be first [fruits]) They are the chosen few very elect of the many called church.

    Matthew 20:16 So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.​
  14. Benoni

    Benoni New Member

    Amen I agree the “out called” or the ekklesia.

    Take the word Church which is the Greek Word ecclesia, meaning the out called. Today religion only recognizes the church as a building, the congregation, a system or a denomination. I believe this is the false church (Babylon) and the true Church is the “out, called“. This does not exclude the church (small c); but the church has rejected God’s anointing and follows creed, dogma and traditions. They follow the tradition of men; not God’s anointing. Oh sure there is an anointing at all levels of God’s anointing; but they are missing the deepness of God anointing; the hidden manna.

    God is not calling all people now.

    If God calls you, you have no choice…….God is calling out a people to do His will; only His firstfruits each in the own order/arrangement/troop

    1 Corinthians 15:22-24

    22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
    23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
    (order) Gk Strong’s NT:5001 tagma (tag'-mah); from NT:5021; something orderly in arrangement (a troop), i.e. (figuratively) a series or succession:

    (Acts 2:39)
    "For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and TO ALL THAT ARE AFAR OFF, even as many as the Lord our God shall call."

    (Acts 2:39)Amp
    And Peter answered them, Repent (change your views and purpose to accept the will of God in your inner selves instead of rejecting it) and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of and release from your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
    39For the promise [of the Holy Spirit] is to and for you and your children, and to and for all that are far away, [even] to and for as many as the Lord our God invites and bids to come to Himself.(A

    Yes but even Judas was foreordained for his purpose.

    Him being delivered BY THE DETERMINATE COUNSEL AND FOREKNOWLEDGE OF GOD, YE have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain" (Acts 2:23). Pilate said to Jesus, "Speakest Thou not unto me? knowest Thou not that I have power to release Thee?" Hear the answer of Jesus! "Thou couldest have no power at all against Me except it were GIVEN THEE FROM ABOVE" (Jn. 19:10-11).

    For God to bring His redemptive and reconstructive plan into effect, there must be a balance, there must be a negative force opposing the positive power and force of God in Christ Jesus. There must be a Judas, chosen to bring all things to a head in the fullness of time when Jesus must be crucified. There must be a Pilate, given power from above, to take care of the legal side of all that happened on that dreadful night. There must be the soldiers selected to nail Jesus to the cross. There must be those who ridiculed Jesus, who scorned and mocked and cursed Him. Without a satan, without a Judas, without self- righteous and vindictive religious leaders, without a rebellious, hateful nation of Israel, there would never have been a blessed Redeemer DYING FOR US!

    The lamb slain from the foundation of the earth.

    1 Peter 1:19 but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot. 20 He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you 21who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.

    Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

  15. Guestman

    Guestman Member

    Mankind was given free will by God. Otherwise, we are like robots that follow a preassigned life. This takes out love for God, for only when a person has free will or choice can they love him from their heart. Deuteronomy 6:5 says that "you must love Jehovah your God with all your heart and all your soul and all your vital force" and of which Jesus quoted at Matthew 22:37. Love requires choice, for each person can choose to love or to hate, whether it be God or another person.

    Adam and Eve had free will, to choose to eat from the "tree of knowledge of good and bad" or to refrain.(Gen 2:17) If they did not have choice, then that would make God liable for all the misery that exists down till today, saying he had pre-programmed them to sin. This is a wicked rendition. If one did not have free will or choice, then the Bible is useless; we all have been pre-assigned to either live forever or, no matter what we do, have no everlasting future, just dying after 70 or 80 years.

    The apostle Paul, under the inspiration of God's holy spirit, said that we must ' keep working out our own salvation with fear and trembling.'(Phil 2:12) If we had no choice or free will in this, then what Paul wrote was a lie, and the Bible, which provides a " an anchor for the soul", would be invalid.(Heb 6:19) If free will was non-existent, then all the works we perform in order to please God would be for naught. This then would set up a chain of events of depression, of asking why serve him at all, for indeed there would be no need or motivation to do as Jesus said: "Exert yourselves vigorously to get in through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will seek to get in but will not be able."(Luke 13:24)

    On the other hand, the freedom to choose is before all. God is looking for individuals that choose to do his will, for Hanani the seer told Jehoshaphat: "As regards Jehovah, his eyes are roving through all the earth to show his strength in behalf of those whose heart is complete toward him."(2 Chron 16:9) We are created in God's "image", capable of imitating him in love.(Gen 1:26) At Hosea 14:4, God says of the nation of wayward Israel, that "I shall heal their unfaithfulness. I shall love them of my own free will, because my anger has turned back from him."

    We have free will or choice, for this is a quality that God exhibits with regard to his creation and we are made in his "image". The apostle Paul wrote to Philemon, to request to keep Onesimus his slave as someone useful to minister to him, saying: "But without your consent I do not want to do anything, so that your good act may be, not under compulsion, but of your own free will."(Philemon 14)

    And concerning his name, God told Moses: "This is what you are to say to the sons of Israel, ‘Jehovah the God of your forefathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.’ This is my name to time indefinite, and this is the memorial of me to generation after generation."(Ex 3:15) God gave himself this name, not humans. God, Creator, and Almighty are all titles that describe him and provide qualities that he exhibits. His name of Jehovah is found in the Hebrew Scriptures (commonly called the "Old Testament") 6,971 times in the form of the Tetragrammaton, YHWH.

    Individual persons have only one name, such as Joe Jones, but may have many titles, such as father, owner, architect, or perhaps singer. Likewise with God, whose name is Jehovah, but he has many titles that describe him, that helps us understand who he is and his eternal purpose.

    This topic is not about God's name, but free will.
  16. Benoni

    Benoni New Member

    Let us start with Adam and your thought the idea of a robot, if Adam and eve did not fall then they would be robots doing God’s Will, Adam had no choice according (Romans 8;20)

    It was God’s choose Adam to sin because God has a greater plan.

    If God did not ordain Adam and Eve’s sin; then He is not all knowing.

    It was God lowered Adam from a spirit to a living soul and formed him from dust man.

    It was God who made Adam and Eve innocent; they did not do it those selves.

    It was God who put the tree of good and evil in the garden. It was God who put the devil, a man slayer, a murderer, a liar in the garden; God totally knew what he was doing with Adam and Eve.

    Deuteronomy 6:5 has nothing to do with man having a choice in his salvation.
    Neither does Matthew 22:37 , so love requires choice what does that have to do with choosing salvation?

    If Adam and Eve had a free choice to eat from the "tree of knowledge in Genesis 2:17 show me, and not based on your bias assumption, seeing tell me to the contrary and I am not quoting my assumption I am quoting God’s Word.

    Ps. 90:1-3. "Lord, You have been our dwelling place in all generations. Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever You have formed the earth or the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, You are God. You (God) turn man to destruction; and say return you children of men.

    (NIRV) Romans 8: 20 The created world was bound to fail. But that was not the result of its own choice. It was planned that way by the One who made it. God planned to set the created world free. He didn't want it to rot away completely. Instead, he wanted it to have the same glorious freedom that his children have

    Yes God took the blame for the fall read your Bible: You (God) turn man to destruction.

    Your Bible may be worthless but my Bible is God’s Word, and no man dose not have a freewill or choice towards salvation.

    Yes men must work out their salvation with fear and trembling, but this verse is speaking to us who are already saved not the people God has not called yet. Yes our works are like filthy rags, I have no righteousness. The narrow way has nothing to do with man choosing his own salvation, it is speaking to us that the way to Christ is the narrow way (in other words without any preconceived bias, no room for a bunch of religious dogmas, creeds and doctrines)

    .Again (2 Chron 16:9) has nothing to do with man having a freewill or choice unto salvation. Yes we were created in God’s image but God caused the curse, we are all dead in trustpasses and sin until God’s spirit quickens us or draws us man rejects God totally for he is spiritually dead, carnal and earthy and knows nothing of God.

    None of these verse you quoted say anything about man having a freewill or choice, none of these verse say Adam and Eve had a choice in fact I quoted Ps. 90 and Romans 8:20 that declare the total opposite.

    I would be glad to discuss any of these verse in great detail but you are all over the place, when we speak of man having a freewill when it comes to salvation this is a man made religious false doctrine and not based on God’s Word.
  17. Benoni

    Benoni New Member

    God is not calling all people now.

    I repeat my valid point from above.

    John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw (Greek drag) him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

    NO MAN….

    Draw… Drag same thing it means force. Does anyone have a freewill when he is being dragged? I do not care what religious logic you believe in. Here is a chance for you to look at God’s Word with no preconceived idealism (the narrow way).

    You speak of faith; faith is nothing but carnal man reaching out to God by his own initiative, his own freewill. IMPOSSIBLE according to God's Word.

    Believe. Interesting word. I have already posted how translators have inserted words in God’s Word to spin God’s Word to make it sound like man has to believe, and this is true a person has to believe but NO can believe until God first draws them. Step back and stop believing what you have been taught, and believe what God’s Word declares.

    How can someone believe, when that person is dead. Dead in trespasses and sin. All know this, God hides himself from the world, go to the Muslin world and mention the name Jesus. Go to a crack house full of teenagers that all that matters to them is being cool and getting there next fix. You name it there are thousands of examples in this world full of sin, darkness and mans carnal flesh where no one can see, touch, smell, hear God without the power of God's spirit to quicken or draw them first.

    The religious word freewill; the reason I call it religious word because the word freewill is not in the scripture.

    Oh sure you can find the word Freewill in the OT when it comes to the Hebrew Freewill offering; BUT that feast has nothing to do with basic salvation.

    It is not a matter of freewill; (we are saved by grace not freewill) free will is a non scriptural word. God call/calls/draws/drags people which is totally contrary to the religious man made doctrine from Rome. God draws us or if you dig a little harder He drags us; there is NO FREE WILL when you are being drawn or dragged in fact it totally to the contrary.

    Here is what the Bible says about man's understanding of God: Romans 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

    Jeremiah 18:2
    Arise, and go down to the potter's house, and there I will cause thee to hear my words. 3 Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels. 4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.

    Romans 9:12 It was said to her that the elder [son] should serve the younger [son]) 13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated (held in [1] relative disregard in comparison with My feeling for Jacob).) 14 What shall we conclude then? Is there injustice upon God's part? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy and I will have compassion (pity) on whom I will have compassion.) 16 So then [God's gift] is not a question of human will and human effort, but of God's mercy. [It depends not on one's own willingness nor on his strenuous exertion as in running a race, but on God's having mercy on him.]

    17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, I have raised you up for this very purpose of displaying My power in [dealing with] you, so that My name may be proclaimed the whole world over. 18 So then He has mercy on whomever He wills (chooses) and He hardens (makes stubborn and unyielding the heart of) whomever He wills. 19 You will say to me, Why then does He still find fault and blame us [for sinning]? For who can resist and withstand His will? 20 But who are you, a mere man, to criticize and contradict and Why have you made me thus? 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same mass (lump) one vessel for beauty and distinction and honorable use, and another for menial or ignoble and dishonorable use?

    1 Corin 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world (age) are come. example

    Example: NT:5178 a : Strong’s: tupikos (toop-ee-kos'); an adverb related to NT:5179; found only in 1 Cor 10:11: as a warning, by way of example, typologically (i.e. figuratively, as a prophetic type, a typological interpretation of Scripture)
  18. Benoni

    Benoni New Member

    It is a strange theory that obsesses men that the human will is greater in power than God, and that, no matter what the will of God is for His creatures, man is able finally to wreck it. It is a curious hypothesis that states that although the Holy Spirit seeks to woo all men to Christ, since God loves all mankind and wills to save all men, still, the omniscient God has boxed Himself into a corner, since the will of God is bound by the will of man, and the Omnipotent Spirit can be resisted by finite man if man so chooses.

    Such faulty reasoning actually brings into prominence ANOTHER OMNIPOTENCE which, because it baffles the omnipotence and love of God, is by far the greater. Man will not so God cannot! What makes this notion so tragic is that it DEIFIES MAN, elevating him to god-hood, and aligns all who embrace it with the very sin that caused the fall in the beginning! The first sin committed by man had its roots in the desire to be a FREE MORAL AGENT!

    Free moral agency is not the doctrine of the Bible. It is the doctrine of Romanism; and it is the doctrine of humanism. It was Erasmus, the humanist, who wrote on the freedom of man's will. It has always been the humanists that have sought to deify man and have boasted of the freedom of their sovereign will.

    The radio preacher declared, "Man makes his choice, and once it is made God cannot do one thing about it." What brash stupidity!

    It is true that man has a will, but so also has God.

    It is true that man is endowed with power, but God is all-powerful.

    It is true that, speaking generally, the material world is regulated by law, but behind that law is the law-Giver and law-Administrator. Man is but the creature. God is the Creator, and untold ages before man first saw fight "the mighty God" (Isa. 9:6) existed, and ere the world was founded, made His plans; and being infinite in power and man only finite, His purpose and plan cannot be withstood or thwarted by the creatures of His own hands.

    To say that Christ is unable to win to Himself those who are unwilling is to deny that all power in heaven and earth is His. To say that Christ cannot put forth His power without destroying man's responsibility is a begging of the question here raised, for HE HAS put forth His power and MADE WILLING those who HAVE come to Him, and if He did this without destroying their responsibility, just why "CANNOT" He do so with others? If He is able to win the heart of just one sinner to Himself, why not that of another?

    To say, as is usually said, the others will not let Him is to impeach His sufficiency and the depths of His love. It is a question of HIS will, not man's! If the Lord Jesus has decreed, desired, purposed the salvation of all mankind, then the entire human race will be saved, or, otherwise, He lacks the power to make good His intentions; and in such a case it could never be said, "
  19. Guestman

    Guestman Member

    According to your viewpoint, we all must accede to God whether we like it or not, with no choice at all and you feel as if you are on the "judgment seat" by saying that my "Bible may be worthless". You then are putting yourself on a pedestal, like the Pharisees, who spoke of the common people as ‛am-ha·’a´rets, "accursed people" (John 7:49), relegating these to the "basement". How can my Bible be worthless and yours more valuable ?

    For example, Romans 8:20 does not say that "the created world was bound to fail. But that was not the result of its choice. It was planned that way by the One who made it" according to the loose rendering of the New International Reader's Version. Rather, Romans 8:20, according to the interlinear reading of the Emphatic Diaglott, it reads: "To the for vanity the creation was placed under, (not voluntarily but through him having placed under,) in hope." The interlinear reading of The New Testament of the Original Greek, a Greek master text by Westcott and Hort, says literally: "to the for vanity the creation was subjected, not voluntary but through the (one) having subjected, upon hope." The online interlinear Scripture4all reads: "to the vanity the creation was-under-set not voluntarily but thru the One-under-setting on expectation."

    Thus, the "created world was (not) bound to fail", nor does it say that the fall of man "was planned that way by" God. This is a distortion of scripture by those who published the NIRV, putting all the blame on God for the world's problems. It is a gross wrong to render it to say that God "planned" Adam's fall or sin. This is blasphemy.

    That would put God in a catagory of a hypocrite, just as a father would offer his son a piece of cake, but knowing full well that he was not going to give it to him. This is a heartless God, a wicked one. Jesus said it succinctly: "Indeed, which father is there among you who, if his son asks for a fish, will perhaps hand him a serpent instead of a fish? Or if he also asks for an egg, will hand him a scorpion? Therefore, if you, although being wicked, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more so will the Father in heaven give holy spirit to those asking him !”(Luke 11:11-13) God did not offer life everlasting as a "gift", knowing that indeed that the "gift of life" was "bound to fail" for Adam.

    It is no different than someone selling a person a product, knowing full well that it would fail within days. This salesperson would then be liable to the law, knowing of its flaws and yet pass it off as a good product. This has happened in the past with regard to recalls on automobiles, when it became known that a part was defective and yet put on the market, such as certain Firestone tires several years ago that caused a number of deaths due to blowouts. James wrote that "with evil things God cannot be tried nor does he himself try anyone."(James 1:13) Would you put a defective tire on your car, knowing that it would blowout just as you left home ? More so, could you give someone a product that would cause their death, knowing it was defective all along ? God put the "tree of knowledge of good and bad" as a test before Adam and Eve to see if they would follow his instructions.

    An accurate translation (and not version nor paraphrase Bible, which paraphrasing is valueless when it come to understanding the Bible clearly and distorts what God said) reads of Romans 8:20: "For the creation was subjected to futility, not by its own will but through him that subjected it, on the basis of hope."(New World Translation) This meets accurately with the Greek, as the apostle Paul wrote it and not as the NIRV Bible presents it. You need to get yourself a Bible that is accurate and not distorted. No one can gain "accurate knowledge" (Phil 1:9) of the Bible with a Bible that is a distortion of the original language.

    To say that Adam was not given free will, goes contrary to the Bible, for when God placed Adam in the Garden of Eden, God did not "twist his arm" in order for him to not eat from the "tree of knowledge of good and bad", but rather gave him the command to not eat from this tree only, which by rights, belonged to Jehovah God (Gen 2:17), just any loving parent would for their child to keep them away from danger.

    Hence, as Moses told the nation of Israel just before they entered the land of Canaan, that "I have put life and death before you, the blessing and the malediction; and you must choose life in order that you may keep alive, you and your offspring by loving Jehovah your God, by listening to his voice and by sticking to him."(Deut 30:19, 20) We all can either "choose loving Jehovah...God" or we can choose death by not "listening to his voice and by sticking to him."
  20. jerryjohnson

    jerryjohnson New Member


    A person does not have to be Calvinist to believe in "free-will" and "predestination," you only need to be able to read Scripture.