Choice Of Scriptures About Choice.

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Benoni

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Aug 16, 2009
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Guestman,

Sorry been on a trip.

According to my viepoint?

When did I give you my view point?

If anyone is giving anyone their viewpoint it would be you, seeing you have not quoted one verse in defense of your false doctrine that man has a freewill to be saved or choose salvation.

I have no idea of what you mean about the Pharsees accused people. How am I putting my self on a pedestial, it is God who chooses us instead of we choosing God, I give God the glory not carnal man.

Yes according to God’s Word not my opinion. John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw (Greek drag) him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Notice “No man” can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me “draw (Greek drag)” him: So how is this my view point? Read your Bible it is in th there, not like you unscriptural words "freewill or choice" when it comes to salvation.

There is no choosing when you are being quickened or dragged. Have you ever been dragged? Try tieing your self on a car and let some one of your church friends drag you down the street, is there any choice once that car starts moving?

You are the one who made the point about the Bible being worthless, here is your quote. “If one did not have free will or choice, then the Bible is useless” well showing your freewill or choice when it comes to salvation in God’s Word. These are your words not mine.

How are we the judgement seat; what are you talking about?

So you do not like the NIRV in Romans 8:20? All the translataions say the same thing. If you are so correct in your false doctine of man having a freewill or choice when it comes to salvation, then why can’t you show me one verse that declares counters these two verses in God’s Word and not from your bias and assumptions.

It is not a distoprition of scripture it is a direct cut and paste.

All I am getting is your opinion based on your assumption, you do not like what Romans 8:20 says but do you even attempt to address Ps. 90: 1-3. This verse says the same thing.

You said” To say that Adam was not given free will, goes contrary to the Bible” Chapter and verse please? No assumptions accepted seeing I have giving to two verses that declares Adam and Eve had no choice and it was God’s plan.

Who put Adam and Eve in the garden?
Who made them innocent?
Who put the Tree of Good in the Garden?
Who lowered man from a pure spirit creature, created by God in his own image and his owned likeness on the sixth day, to a creature that was formed from the dust of the earth of the seveneth day.

Who placed a liar, a manslayer and a murderer in the garden with Adam and Eve who were innocent.

It was God. It was God’s plan long before Adam and Eve were created. God even had a savior before he had a sinner. Romans 8:20 declares this and so does Psalm 90: 1-3 and you do not have one verse to counter this scriptural fact.

By the way his name is not Jehovah God, He has many names.
 

Guestman

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Nov 11, 2009
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Guestman,

Sorry been on a trip.

According to my viepoint?

When did I give you my view point?

If anyone is giving anyone their viewpoint it would be you, seeing you have not quoted one verse in defense of your false doctrine that man has a freewill to be saved or choose salvation.

I have no idea of what you mean about the Pharsees accused people. How am I putting my self on a pedestial, it is God who chooses us instead of we choosing God, I give God the glory not carnal man.

Yes according to God’s Word not my opinion. John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw (Greek drag) him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Notice “No man” can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me “draw (Greek drag)” him: So how is this my view point? Read your Bible it is in th there, not like you unscriptural words "freewill or choice" when it comes to salvation.

There is no choosing when you are being quickened or dragged. Have you ever been dragged? Try tieing your self on a car and let some one of your church friends drag you down the street, is there any choice once that car starts moving?

You are the one who made the point about the Bible being worthless, here is your quote. “If one did not have free will or choice, then the Bible is useless” well showing your freewill or choice when it comes to salvation in God’s Word. These are your words not mine.

How are we the judgement seat; what are you talking about?

So you do not like the NIRV in Romans 8:20? All the translataions say the same thing. If you are so correct in your false doctine of man having a freewill or choice when it comes to salvation, then why can’t you show me one verse that declares counters these two verses in God’s Word and not from your bias and assumptions.

It is not a distoprition of scripture it is a direct cut and paste.

All I am getting is your opinion based on your assumption, you do not like what Romans 8:20 says but do you even attempt to address Ps. 90: 1-3. This verse says the same thing.

You said” To say that Adam was not given free will, goes contrary to the Bible” Chapter and verse please? No assumptions accepted seeing I have giving to two verses that declares Adam and Eve had no choice and it was God’s plan.

Who put Adam and Eve in the garden?
Who made them innocent?
Who put the Tree of Good in the Garden?
Who lowered man from a pure spirit creature, created by God in his own image and his owned likeness on the sixth day, to a creature that was formed from the dust of the earth of the seveneth day.

Who placed a liar, a manslayer and a murderer in the garden with Adam and Eve who were innocent.

It was God. It was God’s plan long before Adam and Eve were created. God even had a savior before he had a sinner. Romans 8:20 declares this and so does Psalm 90: 1-3 and you do not have one verse to counter this scriptural fact.

By the way his name is not Jehovah God, He has many names.


God does indeed "draw" individuals to him, not dragging them, but 'attracting ' them.(Encarta Dictionary, meaning 19). Your view is one presented by John Calvin. Just as the word "grace" has some fourteen different meanings, depending upon context, so likewise does the Greek word helkuo have different meanings, being rendered as "draw" or "drag". It can mean "drag" or "draw", depending upon the context. The word "draw" does not mean "drag", nor does "drag" mean "draw", but that the Greek word helkuo can mean either "drag" or "draw".

For example, at James 2:6, it says that "the rich oppress you, and they drag (Greek helkuo) you before law courts." And yet at John 12:32, Jesus said: "And yet I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw (Greek helkuo) men of all sorts to me." Context is the determining factor for the meaning of the Greek helkuo.

Hence, God does not "drag" people to serve him, forcing these, but that he "draws" or attracts people to want to serve him, as John 6:44 says. God would not be a God of love if he ' dragged' people to be obedient. This is like a dictator. John wrote that "God is love".(1 John 4:8) Therefore, only those whose heart impels them to serve God does he wish to have as his people, for Hanani the seer told King Asa, that "as regards Jehovah, his eyes are roving about through all the earth to show his strength in behalf of those whose heart is complete toward him."(2 Chron 16:9)

Almost thirity years after the nation of Israel had entered the land of promise, Joshua told the Israelites to "fear Jehovah and serve him in faultlessness and in truth....Now if it is bad in your eyes to serve Jehovah, choose for yourselves today who you will serve, whether the gods that your forefathers ....served."(Josh 24:14, 15) Thus, the Israelites could have chosen to serve other gods, rather than the true God, Jehovah. They had free will to serve whom they wished. The drawback is that only Jehovah can give a person everlasting life.

If Adam had no free will, then neither did Jesus Christ, for the apostle Paul wrote that "the first man Adam became a living soul '. The last Adam became a life-giving spirit."(1 Cor 15:45) Jesus was called the "last Adam" because he was like Adam in one respect, a perfect human, having free will, and now could provide a ransom.(Matt 20:28) Just as no one forced Adam's hand in obedience, so likewise no one forced Jesus hand in obedience, but that he did out of love, for Jesus said that "I love the Father". (John 14:31)

And of God's name, Exodus 3:15 says: "This is what you are to say to the sons of Israel, ‘Jehovah the God of your forefathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.’ This is my name to time indefinite, and this is the memorial of me to generation after generation."
 

Benoni

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John Calvin has nothing to do with my view, I totally disagree with much of the treachings of Calvin. My view is based what God’s Word is declaring and I will give you credit for using scripture as the foundation in your understanding. Notice we are discussing the word draw, not the words freewill or choice which are nonscriptural words bases not on God’s Word, but the traditions of religions. Yes there is some different meanings of the word helkuo and you are also right in using different examples in scripture to open our understanding.

The word draw us as stated in John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw (Gk(drag) him: and I will raise him up at the last day. and John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw (Gk(drag) all men unto me. We both agree the word draw is the Greek word from Strong’s 1670: helkuo (hel-koo'-o);or helko (hel'-ko); probably akin to 138; to drag (literally or figuratively): There is no choice for the person when God draws you, drags you or forces you to come; it is God's choice not little man.

Yes when the apostle James wishes to describe the manner in which rich men forcibly drag those who are indebted to them to prison, he uses the word HELKO. In James 2:6 he writes, "Do not rich men oppress you and DRAW you before the judgment seats?" This "drawing," of course, was not with wooing or pleading! It was an act of force that absolutely took no care of the willingness of the person drawn! The poor man might resist ever so much, and he might cry and plead, but he was drawn irresistibly to the place of judgment! It is with precisely this kind of forceful drawing that the Lord Jesus is talking when He says, "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will DRAW all drawn unto me!" And, thank God, they are not just drawn "toward" Him, but UNTO HIM --all the way! Because the Christ was "lifted up" on the cross of Calvary, dying on behalf of every man of Adam's race, the promise is sure, He will inexorably DRAW all men unto Himself! The divine plan calls for the Church, the body of Christ, to be drawn to Him in this age, all the living nations of the world to be drawn to Him in the next age, and the remainder of men, all who have ever lived and died upon this planet in the ages to come.

For example, at James 2:6, it says that "the rich oppress you, and they drag (Greek helkuo) you before law courts." And yet at John 12:32, Jesus said: "And yet I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw (Greek helkuo) men of all sorts to me." Context is the determining factor for the meaning of the Greek helkuo.

I see no difference in the way James uses the word draw/drag in James 2:6 or Jesus drawing/dragging in John 12:32. The context both show us the power and the force of some one being drawn, one by men the ot the other by the mighty unseen power that is drawing, drawing, like an irresistible, supernatural magnet. We speak of our hunger for the Lord, we tell of the longing we feel for Him, we pour out our hunger and longing at His feet as though He did not know they were in our hearts. We comprehend but little that all this is the drawing of God; that if He did not graciously put the hunger in our hearts, we should be cold and barren; we should be satisfied with but little of that into which He is constraining us to enter. Let this sink down into our hearts and ever abide there, that every heavenward impulse in our souls, every upward desire, IS THE DRAWING OF GOD. No sinner could be saved if God did not convict, quicken, deal with, and draw him. So many times we lose sight of this. We could not desire His will nor His best, we could not love and hunger for our dear Lord if God did not graciously put within us a hunger for Him and His will.

1 Corinthians 15:22-24

22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Spiritual death is a message that is sprinkled all though out the Bible starting with what happened to Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden. When Adam and Eve sinned they died spiritual (for Adam lived for over 900 years in a physical flesh body) what really happened when Adam died; he died from the presence of God; they became naked. Only man stands naked of all the creatures of God’s creation. Devoid of any wisdom, and understanding; his carnal human nature becomes what matters. Naked means flesh uncovered, flesh exposed. The flesh is our outer life, the life of the soul and the body not the spirit of man. The carnal mind, earthy thinking for we are dead to the entire spiritual realm.

When it comes to carnal mans having a desire to walk and talk with God he is dead from that realm for he has no spiritual life to see, or hear God.

Romans 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Romans 3:11 (AMP) No one understands [no one intelligently discerns or comprehends]; no one seeks out God.

Romans 3:11 (NCV) 11 There is no one who understands.
There is no one who looks to God for help.

This is why God must draw us (John 6:44) or quicken us out of our carnal nature and we have no freewill or choice within this human naked state to do this on our own. Notice the context of Ephesians 2 where God’s Spirit took seven verses to lay down the foundation of how man’s spiritual death state and God must quicken us. (Eph. 6:17). Then the writer to the Hebrews declares that the sword of God’s word is "QUICK ."Quick means living and active — LIFE-GIVING!

1(1) And you hath he quickened, (2) who were dead in trespasses and sins;
"For the word of God that speaks is alive and full of power — making it active, operative, energizing and effective; it is sharper than any two-edged sword" (Heb. 4:12, Amplified).

2Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (3) (by grace ye are saved
6And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8For by grace are ye (4) saved through faith; (5) and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast

I will add once this has happen we had no choice or freewill.
 

Butch5

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Oct 24, 2009
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None of these verses speak of choice in the salvation experence.  Most of these verse are OT, salvation happened because of the blood of Jesus and Calvary happened in the NT.

Philippians 1:21-24 is speaking of someone who is already saved and choose Christ over the flesh.

Man does not have a choice or freewill to choose God, it is God's spirit that must quicken or draw the person.  Then and only then can the person choose.  Yes man has a freewill and little to no choice but to sin, that is his nature sence God caused the fall.

What is your evidence to support the claim tha man has no choice in salvation?
 

Miss Hepburn

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So, George, we are just actors on the stage?
I knew there was a reason I had/have absolutely no feelings about all my atheist friends.
One might think I would/could feel indignant or frustrated that they don't believe in my Father, the One that I love so much.
"How could they not believe!!!"

Yet, everytime I here a new acquaintance is an atheist - I have no feeling about it at all!!

My first thought is curiousity inside - "Why have you not shown them, Lord? You have knocked my socks off so many times
I couldn't deny You if I tried! It would be like looking at the sky and saying it doesn't exist. You are all around and You have become alive
in me and my surroundings - breathing, pulsing all around me. Why don't you alter their perceptions so they can be aware of You?"

I am humbled each time I meet an atheist. I was indeed drawn and revealed the Holy Presence of the Lord.
I had no choice.

Now, do I have a choice to have that 3rd slice of pizza? Yes.
I'm following you, G, just from my own experience - if I had never seen a Bible. (Which was recently.)

:) Miss Hepburn
 

Butch5

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Oct 24, 2009
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Homer Ga.
What this verse does not show is Paul being saved by freewill or choice.


Acts 26:12-23 ( KJV )
Whereupon as I went to Damascus with authority and commission from the chief priests,
At midday, O king, I saw in the way a light from heaven, above the brightness of the sun, shining round about me and them which journeyed with me.
And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest.
But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;
Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee,
To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.
Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision:
But showed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.
For these causes the Jews caught me in the temple, and went about to kill me.
Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come:
That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should show light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.

Evidence? Can you read the post I have posted in this very thread?

How about you showing me evidence man chooses his salvation to start with?


Acts 13:46 ( KJV )
Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.

The definition of the Greek word translated "judge" is given below. It is clear from the definition that the Jews chose.

Thayer’s Greek Definitions

G2919 κρίνω krinō Thayer Definition: 1) to separate, put asunder, to pick out, select, choose 2) to approve, esteem, to prefer 3) to be of opinion, deem, think, to be of opinion 4) to determine, resolve, decree 5) to judge 5a) to pronounce an opinion concerning right and wrong 5a1) to be judged, i.e. summoned to trial that one’s case may be examined and judgment passed upon it 5b) to pronounce judgment, to subject to censure 5b1) of those who act the part of judges or arbiters in matters of common life, or pass judgment on the deeds and words of others 6) to rule, govern 6a) to preside over with the power of giving judicial decisions, because it was the prerogative of kings and rulers to pass judgment 7) to contend together, of warriors and combatants 7a) to dispute 7b) in a forensic sense 7b1) to go to law, have suit at law