Christadelphians, the Devil and Satan

[Matthias]

@Hiddenthings (a self-acknowledged Christadelphian - in other words, something which he hasn’t kept hidden from his readers) hasn’t done it so I’ll do it for him - a thread on the Christadelphian belief and teaching about the devil and Satan, using a Christadelphian source. If he wants to amend it in some forum or fashion, I invite him to do so.

Bible Basics Study 6.2 - The Devil and Satan

 

[Hiddenthings]

@Hiddenthings (a self-acknowledged Christadelphian - in other words, something which he hasn’t kept hidden from his readers) hasn’t done it so I’ll do it for him - a thread on the Christadelphian belief and teaching about the devil and Satan, using a Christadelphian source. If he wants to amend it in some forum or fashion, I invite him to do so.

Bible Basics Study 6.2 - The Devil and Satan

Wow, you're posting a study on this subject that actually contains a lot of truth, thank you, Matthias.

Now, go ahead and refute it.

Let’s see the evidence for your imagined supernatural creature.

Can you also provide a link to this study here To see how the new believers are doing

 

[Hiddenthings]

A lexicographical review of satanological terminology in the wilderness temptation

For those interested in a thorough examination of the subject of Satan and the temptation, please find attached a comprehensive study with numerous well supported references. I'm sure the more discerning among you will have plenty of questions as to why believers like @Matthias continue to hold to a doctrine so poorly supported by Scripture.

 

[talons]

For those interested in a thorough examination of the subject of Satan

So you are saying there are no fallen angels in our earthly realm ?

 

[Hiddenthings]

So you are saying there are no fallen angels in our earthly realm ?

Divine nature cannot sin - God's nature!

 

[Hiddenthings]

@talons do you know what the divine decree is for sin? And the source of sin?

If you do, you will quickly realise angels cannot sin or die.

 

[talons]

@talons do you know what the divine decree is for sin? And the source of sin?

If you do, you will quickly realise angels cannot sin or die.

Who said angels can die ? Not me .

I present two fallen angels for you , the prince of the kingdom of Persia and the prince of Grecia in Daniel Chapter 10 .


12Then said he unto me, Fear not, Daniel: for from the first day that thou didst set thine heart to understand, and to chasten thyself before thy God, thy words were heard, and I am come for thy words.

13But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.

14Now I am come to make thee understand what shall befall thy people in the latter days: for yet the vision is for many days.

15And when he had spoken such words unto me, I set my face toward the ground, and I became dumb.

16And, behold, one like the similitude of the sons of men touched my lips: then I opened my mouth, and spake, and said unto him that stood before me, O my lord, by the vision my sorrows are turned upon me, and I have retained no strength.

17For how can the servant of this my lord talk with this my lord? for as for me, straightway there remained no strength in me, neither is there breath left in me.

18Then there came again and touched me one like the appearance of a man, and he strengthened me,

19And said, O man greatly beloved, fear not: peace be unto thee, be strong, yea, be strong. And when he had spoken unto me, I was strengthened, and said, Let my lord speak; for thou hast strengthened me.

20Then said he, Knowest thou wherefore I come unto thee? and now will I return to fight with the prince of Persia: and when I am gone forth, lo, the prince of Grecia shall come.

21But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince.

 

[talons]

Off to catch some ZZZZ's . bedtime in bama .

 

[Muna]

@talons do you know what the divine decree is for sin? And the source of sin?

If you do, you will quickly realise angels cannot sin or die.

It does say that angels sinned here

2Peter 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment

 

[pandaflower]

@Hiddenthings (a self-acknowledged Christadelphian - in other words, something which he hasn’t kept hidden from his readers) hasn’t done it so I’ll do it for him - a thread on the Christadelphian belief and teaching about the devil and Satan, using a Christadelphian source. If he wants to amend it in some forum or fashion, I invite him to do so.

Bible Basics Study 6.2 - The Devil and Satan

They're a Christadelphian? I've not heard of them before this.

Why hide it?

I'm on a smartphone. The print on that OP link is far too small and much for me to read with a phone backlight to boot.

I sought AI assist to make it easier to find out about what Christadelphians believe. It might also help others who are like me in that regard.

Christadelphians believe in one God, who is not a Trinity, and that Jesus is the Son of God, born of a virgin, who will return to establish God's Kingdom on Earth. They emphasize the importance of the Bible, believer's baptism, and the resurrection of the dead, while rejecting mainstream doctrines like the immortality of the soul. Wikipedia faithandselfdefense.com

Core Beliefs of Christadelphians​

Nature of God and Jesus​

• Monotheism: Christadelphians believe in one God, who is the Father, rejecting the Trinity doctrine.
• Jesus Christ: They view Jesus as the Son of God and a man, born of a virgin. They do not believe he existed before his birth and reject the idea that he is God.

Salvation and Resurrection​

• Salvation: Attained through faith in Jesus and baptism, which symbolizes participation in Christ's sacrifice.
• Resurrection: They believe in the resurrection of the dead at Christ's return, where the faithful will be judged and granted eternal life in God's Kingdom.

The Kingdom of God​

• Future Kingdom: Christadelphians believe Jesus will return to establish God's Kingdom on Earth, centered in Israel, fulfilling promises made to Abraham and David.

Scriptures and Practices​

• Bible as Authority: They regard the Bible as the inspired word of God, free from error, and the sole source of their beliefs.
• Worship: They practice "breaking of bread" or communion during worship, which is open to baptized members.

Lifestyle and Ethics​

• Moral Standards: Christadelphians strive to live by high moral standards, avoiding activities they consider worldly, such as military service or political involvement.
• Community: They have no paid clergy or central authority, with local congregations (ecclesias) led by members.

Wikipedia Learn Religions

 

[Hiddenthings]

It does say that angels sinned here

2Peter 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment

Read the context and let me know what OT Bible Story is being referenced?

 

[Hiddenthings]

Who said angels can die ? Not me .

I present two fallen angels for you , the prince of the kingdom of Persia and the prince of Grecia in Daniel Chapter 10 .


12Then said he unto me, Fear not, Daniel: for from the first day that thou didst set thine heart to understand, and to chasten thyself before thy God, thy words were heard, and I am come for thy words.

13But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.

14Now I am come to make thee understand what shall befall thy people in the latter days: for yet the vision is for many days.

15And when he had spoken such words unto me, I set my face toward the ground, and I became dumb.

16And, behold, one like the similitude of the sons of men touched my lips: then I opened my mouth, and spake, and said unto him that stood before me, O my lord, by the vision my sorrows are turned upon me, and I have retained no strength.

17For how can the servant of this my lord talk with this my lord? for as for me, straightway there remained no strength in me, neither is there breath left in me.

18Then there came again and touched me one like the appearance of a man, and he strengthened me,

19And said, O man greatly beloved, fear not: peace be unto thee, be strong, yea, be strong. And when he had spoken unto me, I was strengthened, and said, Let my lord speak; for thou hast strengthened me.

20Then said he, Knowest thou wherefore I come unto thee? and now will I return to fight with the prince of Persia: and when I am gone forth, lo, the prince of Grecia shall come.

21But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince.

Sorry, I think you’ve misunderstood—Matthias holds to fallen angel theology, which teaches a heavenly rebellion and the idea that divine angels can sin.

Matthias couldn't provide evidence which is why he had a tantrum and started this thread. In his words "he wanted other Christians to prove that angels can sin and did"

Anyways, I happy to discuss obedient angels all day every day, after all there is only one kind of angel. All ministering spirits sent to serve as Paul so aptly put it.

 

[Hiddenthings]

They're a Christadelphian? I've not heard of them before this.

Why hide it?

Nothing has been hid Panda.

Matthias asked me what denomination I belong too and then proceeded to slander me with it - maybe he was showing what the true definition of a false accuser looks like

I'm on a smartphone. The print on that OP link is far too small and much for me to read with a phone backlight to boot.

All good!

I sought AI assist to make it easier to find out about what Christadelphians believe. It might also help others who are like me in that regard.

Christadelphians believe in one God, who is not a Trinity, and that Jesus is the Son of God, born of a virgin, who will return to establish God's Kingdom on Earth. They emphasize the importance of the Bible, believer's baptism, and the resurrection of the dead, while rejecting mainstream doctrines like the immortality of the soul. Wikipedia faithandselfdefense.com

Correct.

Core Beliefs of Christadelphians​

Nature of God and Jesus​

• Monotheism: Christadelphians believe in one God, who is the Father, rejecting the Trinity doctrine.
• Jesus Christ: They view Jesus as the Son of God and a man, born of a virgin. They do not believe he existed before his birth and reject the idea that he is God.

Salvation and Resurrection​

• Salvation: Attained through faith in Jesus and baptism, which symbolizes participation in Christ's sacrifice.
• Resurrection: They believe in the resurrection of the dead at Christ's return, where the faithful will be judged and granted eternal life in God's Kingdom.

The Kingdom of God​

• Future Kingdom: Christadelphians believe Jesus will return to establish God's Kingdom on Earth, centered in Israel, fulfilling promises made to Abraham and David.

Scriptures and Practices​

• Bible as Authority: They regard the Bible as the inspired word of God, free from error, and the sole source of their beliefs.
• Worship: They practice "breaking of bread" or communion during worship, which is open to baptized members.

Lifestyle and Ethics​

• Moral Standards: Christadelphians strive to live by high moral standards, avoiding activities they consider worldly, such as military service or political involvement.
• Community: They have no paid clergy or central authority, with local congregations (ecclesias) led by members.

Wikipedia Learn Religions

Yes....happy to discuss any of those beliefs.

For now we are dealing with the false teaching that Divine Angels can sin.

Feel free to join in!

 

[Hiddenthings]

Who said angels can die ? Not me .

Correct, its common belief among many that think Angels can die. Of course Jesus corrects them rather clearly and links their (saints) reward to the Angels Divine Nature.

Luke 20:36 “For they (saints) cannot die anymore, because they are equal to angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.”

A number of facts can be taken from the Masters words.

1 We shall be like the Angels who cannot sin or die in the Kingdom age
2 Angels possess Divine Nature and are immortal and cannot sin or die
3 When the life is raised they become the Sons of God with Power no different to Jesus (Romans 1:1-4)

No marriage either!

 

[Muna]

Read the context and let me know what OT Bible Story is being referenced?

You said, angels cannot sin or die

Or do you mean men cannot sin or die?

Because angels do not die (as Jesus tells us that children of the resurrection are equal to the angels in that way in Luke 20:36 that they die no more ). But on the otherhand Peter tells us that God spared not that angels that sinned in 2Peter 2:4 Showing angels can sin

2Peter 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment

Concerning children of the resurrection, they cannot "die any more"

Luke 20:36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

So when you said, "angels cannot sin or die

We know "men can sin" (for all have sinned) and men die.

In respects to Jesus it says,

Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death

His being made lower than the angels (which die not) was specifically for suffering death (in order to die)

So when you say to me,

Read the context and let me know what OT Bible Story is being referenced?

You said angels cannot sin or die though, but Peter says the same did sin

If you mean men when you speak of angels, you need to say men, and that men cannot sin and die then.

And if that be the case then why would Jesus be made lower than the angels who are really men (one of which can die and the other cannot die) for the suffering of death itself, for sin (when both are recorded as sinning).

I understand from other conversations that the word angel can mean messenger, and can apply it to men, for example, John was a messenger sent before Christ, exchange the word messenger for angel (I get it, by way of office) Jesus was also the messenger of the covenant (exchange the word for angel). BUT Jesus was made lower (by nature, not by office) than the angels (made a man) to suffer death (die). Right there shows two things the office and the nature of an angel, and Jesus is mentioned in the office of one (Messenger of the covenant) but not in the nature of one (because they do not die) and he was made lower than them according to nature in order to die. Just so you know where I am coming from.

Edit typo

 

[Muna]

Nothing has been hid Panda.

Matthias asked me what denomination I belong too and then proceeded to slander me with it - maybe he was showing what the true definition of a false accuser looks like

All good!

Correct.

Yes....happy to discuss any of those beliefs.

For now we are dealing with the false teaching that Divine Angels can sin.

Feel free to join in!

There is reference to evil angels

Psalm 78:49 He cast upon them the fierceness of his anger, wrath, and indignation, and trouble, by sending evil angels among them.

And there is also reference to holy angels

Matt 8:38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.

 

[Hiddenthings]

There is reference to evil angels

Psalm 78:49 He cast upon them the fierceness of his anger, wrath, and indignation, and trouble, by sending evil angels among them.

Poor translation - should read messengers.

No such thing as an evil angel.

And there is also reference to holy angels

Matt 8:38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.

Only Holy Angels correct.

 

[Hiddenthings]

You said, angels cannot sin or die

Or do you mean men cannot sin or die?

Because angels do not die (as Jesus tells us that children of the resurrection are equal to the angels in that way in Luke 20:36 that they die no more ). But on the otherhand Peter tells us that God spared not that angels that sinned in 2Peter 2:4 Showing angels can sin

2Peter 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment

Concerning children of the resurrection, they cannot "die any more"

Luke 20:36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

So when you said, "angels cannot sin or die

We know "men can sin" (for all have sinned) and men die.

In respects to Jesus it says,

Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death

His being made lower than the angels (which die not) was specifically for suffering death (in order to die)

So when you say to me,

Read the context and let me know what OT Bible Story is being referenced?

You said angels cannot sin or die though, but Peter says the same did sin

If you mean men when you speak of angels, you need to say men, and that men cannot sin and die then.

And if that be the case then why would Jesus be made lower than the angels who are really men (one of which can die and the other cannot die) for the suffering of death itself, for sin (when both are recorded as sinning).

I understand from other conversations that the word angel can mean messenger, and can apply it to men, for example, John was a messenger sent before Christ, exchange the word messenger for angel (I get it, by way of office) Jesus was also the messenger of the covenant (exchange the word for angel). BUT Jesus was made lower (by nature, not by office) than the angels (made a man) to suffer death (die). Right there shows two things the office and the nature of an angel, and Jesus is mentioned in the office of one (Messenger of the covenant) but not in the nature of one (because they do not die) and he was made lower than them according to nature in order to die. Just so you know where I am coming from.

Edit typo

Yes, you need to be mindful the word for angels can also be used of human messengers.

Mortal flesh can sin and die - Romans 6:23
Divine Nature cannot - Luke 20:36

 

[talons]

Sorry, I think you’ve misunderstood—Matthias holds to fallen angel theology, which teaches a heavenly rebellion and the idea that divine angels can sin.

There are fallen angels mentioned in Daniel chapter 10 , I quoted the scripture in post #7 .
If the "prince of Persia " and the "prince of Grecia " are not fallen angels what are they in your estimation .

 

[Muna]

Poor translation - should read messengers.

No such thing as an evil angel.

Only Holy Angels correct.

You keep moving the goal posts, when you say at the first that the angels cannot sin when 2 Peter 2:4 tells us that the angels did sin. You don't address Peters words contradicting your words. Your word should agree with the apostles in those things. Likewise when it says He sent evil angels among them in Psalm 78:49 its just a bad translation and so now we have* a mistaken apostle concerning these angels that you say cannot sin, not to mention the LORD not sending evil angels at all because you say angels cannot be evil.

The word angel is mal'ak and means messenger see here

Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon

Used equally for

angel 111, messenger 98, ambassadors 4

John and Jesus are called mal'ak's/ or messengers

The Lord is called the mal'ak/messenger of the covenant

Mal 3:1 Behold, I will send my messenger H4397 , and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger H4397 of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.

Regardless of this office in respects to the nature he took on it says,

Heb 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

Angels do not die

Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death

But angels can sin

2Peter 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment

There are evil angels

Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Edit fixed sentence