The premise: it’s impossible for immortals, angels or future humans, those possessing (partaking of) the divine nature to sin. This would make a firm foundational pillar to build upon for this truth.
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Christadelphians, the Devil and Satan
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Hiddenthings
Well-Known Member
How could God offer a compromised reward? And how can He allow His Nature to sin?
The Christian must look at those misinterpreted text and find what they truly teach...only then will the truth of Scripture be revealed.
Lambano
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These arguments from "nature" are slippery. Are you SURE you know what the properties of God's "nature" are?
Apparently, the divine nature knows (experientially?) good and evil.
Are you SURE you know what the "nature" of angels is? What the nature of other spiritual creatures it? What the nature of resurrected human beings (both those resurrected to eternal life and those resurrected for destruction) will be?
Apparently, the divine nature knows (experientially?) good and evil.
Are you SURE you know what the "nature" of angels is? What the nature of other spiritual creatures it? What the nature of resurrected human beings (both those resurrected to eternal life and those resurrected for destruction) will be?
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Hiddenthings
Well-Known Member
This has been called into question by those who try to explain away difficult verses simply because they do not understand them.These arguments from "nature" are slippery. Are you SURE you know what the properties of God's "nature" are?
Apparently, the divine nature knows (experientially?) good and evil.
Are you SURE you know what the "nature" of angels is? What the nature of other spiritual creatures it? What the nature of resurrected human beings (both those resurrected to eternal life and those resurrected for destruction) will be?
There is a flesh-and-blood nature, and there is a divine nature.
All created beings are given life, (angels, Jesus and the saints) which is expressed as a bodily form, not requiring blood but consisting of spirit and body.
Hiddenthings
Well-Known Member
Interesting, where in the Bible is this being depicted like this? Horns, on fire etc?
Hiddenthings
Well-Known Member
Correct, created beings have all gone through a probation before being made eternal (Christ included - Luke 12:50) .
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David Lamb
Well-Known Member
Such a view of the devil/Satan is more like pictures of the false Greek god Pan than it is of the Satan we read of in the bible.
Humor is like that sometimes .
But in reality we do not know what Satan looks like , he is a fallen angel after all .
A description of what Satan looks like , could he be able to take on a form of his choosing ? Yes of course !
Satan is described as serpent in the garden of Eden . Satan is described as a angel of light .
And finally in Revelation a dragon and a serpent again .
1And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
Now @David Lamb I am open to you giving me a description of Satan as you read in the bible .
Revelation 12:3 Context
1And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: 2And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. 3And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. 4And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. 5And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. 6And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
Hiddenthings
Well-Known Member
Thank you for your honesty, acknowledging that your (and others) perspective is rooted in mythological beliefs is an important first step toward approaching this subject with openness and integrity.
You would likely agree that no clear definition of such a creature exists in the Bible, and imposing assumptions onto difficult passages is not the path to discovering truth.
Hiddenthings
Well-Known Member
Do you know how to interpret the symbols?
Clearly you don't believe a literal woman can be clothed with the sun.
Hiddenthings
Well-Known Member
Fact is I am still waiting on an answer from you to my question in post #28 .
“Four out of ten Christians (40%) strongly agreed that Satan ‘is not a living being but is a symbol of evil.’ An additional two out of ten Christians (19%) said they ‘agree somewhat’ with that perspective. A minority of Christians indicated that they believe Satan is real by disagreeing with the statement: one quarter (26%) disagreed strongly and about one tenth (9%) disagreed somewhat. The remaining 8% were not sure what they believe about the existence of Satan.”
Anecdote. The first time I was introduced to a Christadelphian he (eventually) told me, “You are the devil.” I laughed and asked him, “Do you think you are also the devil?” He replied that he did. (At least he was consistent. Human nature, after all, is the devil in his understanding. He wasn’t making a personal attack against me. In fact, he was polite the entire time.)
Imagine a Christian walking around believing that he or she is the devil / the symbol of evil.
Christadelphian man. Symbol of evil.
That’s not the way that I saw him, nor is it the way that I see the Christadelphians / man in general.
***
Barna should conduct a new survey asking Christians, “Do you believe that you are the devil / the symbol of evil?”
Anecdote. The first time I was introduced to a Christadelphian he (eventually) told me, “You are the devil.” I laughed and asked him, “Do you think you are also the devil?” He replied that he did. (At least he was consistent. Human nature, after all, is the devil in his understanding. He wasn’t making a personal attack against me. In fact, he was polite the entire time.)
Imagine a Christian walking around believing that he or she is the devil / the symbol of evil.
Christadelphian man. Symbol of evil.
That’s not the way that I saw him, nor is it the way that I see the Christadelphians / man in general.
***
Barna should conduct a new survey asking Christians, “Do you believe that you are the devil / the symbol of evil?”
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“Now on the day when God’s sons came to present themselves before Yahweh, Satan also came among thrm. Yahweh said to Satan, ‘Where have you come from?’
Then Satan answered Yahweh, and said, ‘From going back and forth in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.’ Yahweh said to Satan, ‘Have you considered my servant, Job? For there is no one like him in the earth, a blameless and an upright man, ons who fears God, and turns away from evil.‘
Then Satan answered Yahweh and said, ‘Does Job fear God for nothing? Haven’t you made a a hedge around him, and around his house, and around all that he has, on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land. But stretch out your hand now, and touch all that he has, and he will renounce you to your face.’
Yahweh said to Satan, ‘Behold, all that he has is in your power. Only on himself don’t stretch out your hand.’”
(Job 1:6-12, WEB)
Christadelphians, at least those whom I’ve spoke with, believe Job is an actual historical character, a real human person, but they don’t read this as a conversation between Yahweh and a real supernatural being. “Satan” is just a generic placeholder for ”adversary” and the word “devil” represents “sin and human nature”.
Personification is the bit we must hold in our teeth in order to hold the Christadelphian doctrine. That - and mockery of Christians (and non-Christians) who don’t go along with their doctrine - is what it boils down to.
If that’s appealing to you, then give becoming a Christadelphian consideration.
Do -> study the subject of steadfast and fallen angels.
Don’t -> be intimidated or persuaded by mocking.
Then Satan answered Yahweh, and said, ‘From going back and forth in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.’ Yahweh said to Satan, ‘Have you considered my servant, Job? For there is no one like him in the earth, a blameless and an upright man, ons who fears God, and turns away from evil.‘
Then Satan answered Yahweh and said, ‘Does Job fear God for nothing? Haven’t you made a a hedge around him, and around his house, and around all that he has, on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land. But stretch out your hand now, and touch all that he has, and he will renounce you to your face.’
Yahweh said to Satan, ‘Behold, all that he has is in your power. Only on himself don’t stretch out your hand.’”
(Job 1:6-12, WEB)
Christadelphians, at least those whom I’ve spoke with, believe Job is an actual historical character, a real human person, but they don’t read this as a conversation between Yahweh and a real supernatural being. “Satan” is just a generic placeholder for ”adversary” and the word “devil” represents “sin and human nature”.
Personification is the bit we must hold in our teeth in order to hold the Christadelphian doctrine. That - and mockery of Christians (and non-Christians) who don’t go along with their doctrine - is what it boils down to.
If that’s appealing to you, then give becoming a Christadelphian consideration.
Do -> study the subject of steadfast and fallen angels.
Don’t -> be intimidated or persuaded by mocking.
Christadelphians aren’t the only ones who don’t believe the devil is a fallen angel. It is a distinctive doctrine held by some other groups. I’m providing a link to an article written by someone representing the Christian Science church for the consideration of my readers.
thebiblespeakstoyou.com
What catches my eye in this article is his argument that Jesus himself does not believe that the devil is a fallen angel.
What are you doing - according to this man and the church which he represents - if you believe the devil is a fallen angel? You’ve become an adversary of Jesus.
This is no trivial matter.
Satan is NOT a Fallen Angel ~ The Bible Speaks to You
Who am I to disagree with Billy Graham? Not to mention so many Christians, who believe that Satan was once an angel. Oh well, here goes. While I deeply appreciate and revere Reverend Graham's or anyone's, commitment to Christ and all they have done to bring the message of salvation to the world...
thebiblespeakstoyou.com
What catches my eye in this article is his argument that Jesus himself does not believe that the devil is a fallen angel.
What are you doing - according to this man and the church which he represents - if you believe the devil is a fallen angel? You’ve become an adversary of Jesus.
This is no trivial matter.
A spiritual battle is currently raging in one of the “Christians Only” forums” on the subject of “Fake Christians”. Someone wanting to stoke that “Christian vs. Christian” fire could easily do so by tossing in this grenade: “There is no such thing as fallen angels.”
There really isnt a battle there. The original poster hasnt been around that started it, and we are over there just talking.
“Fake Christians” is always a Christian vs. Christian spiritual battle.
“Jesus himself doesn’t believe in fallen angels.” That’s what “Christians” are telling “Christians” and members registered “Other Faith” in this thread.
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