Christadelphians, the Devil and Satan

[talons]

Rather he was placing Adam and Eve under trial, and my assessment is that God wanted them to mature and grow in faith and trust of God and his word.

Adam and Eve had choices and I think God wants us to notice they did not partake of the Tree of Life .

We are placed under trial and sin is not inevitable.

Indeed . But where can the trial come from , not always from God .

God did not create the snake and its abilities to make sin inevitable.

Let's talk about the abilities of the serpent .

Was the ability to talk and know the things of God only given to this one serpent in the garden or are there more talking and human reasoning serpents ?

Do we have anymore record in the bible of animals offering temptation to humans by talking to them ?

Once God cursed the snake did it retain it's ability to talk ?

 

[talons]

When I retired and returned to my home state, I contacted the Church of God of the Abrahamic Faith (located in Perryville, Kentucky).

Church of God of the Abrahamic Faith (CGAF)

The leader there was cordial - very much like @TrevorHL - and discussed my interest in possibly attending. (It’s less than a 60 minute drive from where I live.) At the end of our conversation he told me that I wouldn’t be welcome there for two simple reasons - (1) I believe the devil and the demons are real; and (2) I was licensed as a pastor by the church which they separated from 100 years ago - over the issue of the real personality of the devil.

As anyone who cares to read the link to their website can plainly see, they fellowship with the Christadelphians.

They feared you would subvert the faithful to believe Satan and Demons are real . A little bit of leaven . But I notice they did not think they could right your ship .

 

[Matthias]

They feared you would subvert the faithful to believe Satan and Demons are real . A little bit of leaven .

That’s a good observation, and there is a great measure of truth in it. When I told him that I thought I might be able to refrain from speaking about the matter and / or refrain from discussing it with anyone if asked, that didn’t satisfy him. In his eyes, and with a view toward protecting the flock, I (and everyone else who believes satan and the demons are real) am a carrier of an infectious and terminal disease - a theological cancer, if you will - and a danger which must not be allowed anywhere on the premises.

Say what we will about the man but say this: he has the heart of a shepherd. I respect that.

But I notice they did not think they could right your ship .

You’re right, but I’ll give him a small pass on that. He knew my background and knows very well, as do I, the history of the split which occurred in the church. The instant I confirmed my belief that the devil is real it was o-v-e-r. (There remain to this day a small number of people in the church - even a few pastors - they separated from who do not believe that the devil and the demons are real.) He wasn’t going to invest any amount of effort attempting to persuade a minister licensed by the body which they split from over this very matter. Had my background and credentials been different, he might have put forth the effort.

As I said, he was cordial (even complimentary, due to the amount of doctrine which we have in common) but he sincerely believed that he was speaking to an incorrigible (that’s the key word) dead man walking.

Doctrine taken seriously has real life consequences. It unites and it divides.

I’m fully persuaded that I’m on the right side of that divide. He is fully persuaded that he is.

 

[talons]

He wasn’t going to invest any amount of effort attempting to persuade a minister licensed by the body which they split from over this very matter. Had my background and credentials been different, he might have put forth the effort.

I can understand that , time better spent for him on someone with shallow roots so to speak if he was looking to change someone's thinking .
I am Pentecostal and believe all the gifts of the Holy Spirit are still operating today . Jehovah's Witnesses once put a small gold star on our mail box to mark us as place to NOT to stop , they loose too many members listening to the Pentecostals .
Former JW clued my wife to these facts .

As I said, he was cordial (even complimentary, due to the amount of doctrine which we have in common) but he sincerely believed that he was speaking to an incorrigible (that’s the key word) dead man walking.

Woah ! That's drastic !

 

[Hiddenthings]

I think you need a distinction there between the angels of heaven, and those of the earth. Those "angels" who are earthly men don't seem to be infallible.

Angels move between heaven and earth - what earthly mortal angels are you speaking about?

 

[Matthias]

Jehovah's Witnesses once put a small gold star on our mail box to mark us as place to NOT to stop , they loose too many members listening to the Pentecostals .
Former JW clued my wife to these facts .

Funny you should mention that. There is a small gold circle on the side of my mailbox. We don’t know where it came from or how it got there but it was put there by someone shortly after JW’s knocked on our door about 7 years ago. They haven’t been back since. It may just be a coincidence but maybe it was put there by them.

 

[Wick Stick]

Angels move between heaven and earth - what earthly mortal angels are you speaking about?

Those men who are messengers of God. All the churches of Asia Minor in Revelation had one.

 

[talons]

Seraphim and Cherubim

 

[Hiddenthings]

Do you believe angels have the divine nature?

The Master taught you so (angels cannot sin and if they did or could - wages of sin is death!)

If so, what about humans?

Flesh and blood with the dominion of death

We were created a little lower than the angels (Psa 8:5).

Mortal vs Immortal

If we can sin, why not angels?

Because they are eternal being with divine nature - if they could your reward is marred.

I would suggest the ability to sin is not based upon the divine nature but free will. Anyone that has free will can sin. Only God cannot sin.

If a being cannot die - can they sin?

Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

What you believe is the eternal life you have in Christ is one capable of sin!

But Christ taught

Luke 20:36 "for they cannot die anymore, because they are equal to angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection."

What it means is the passages in the Bible all of them where you think its a fallen angel it is not!

I’d be happy to explain why we’re tempted and how our human nature compares to the divine nature that the saints will receive in the resurrection. However, it seems that some mythological ideas may be clouding your understanding, which can make it harder to see what the Scriptures actually teach.

2 Peter 1:4 "...by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world because of sinful desire."

Jerico, you should feel rather special as there is not one Christian in this forum who can reconcile these three above quotes with fallen angel theolog.

Not one!

Green text - Condemned nature (flesh and blood)
Red Text - Eternal Nature (flesh and spirit)

Jerico, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus (who you have touched!), who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.”

In your reply if you cannot speak according to these quotes wait until you can!

 

[talons]

I would suggest the ability to sin is not based upon the divine nature but free will. Anyone that has free will can sin. Only God cannot sin.

Exactly !

Daniel 10 describes the principalities behind the earthly rulers. Paul makes it clear those principalities are not human: "For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places." (Eph 6:12)

Yes !

It is well established that both Peter and Jude quoted from the Book of Enoch. So, you may not believe in fallen angel theology, but apparently they did.

So much truth in your posts !

 

[Hiddenthings]

Exactly !

Yes !

So much truth in your posts !

I think you will find Jericho will struggle to deal with the evidence, as you have.

 

[Hiddenthings]

@talons It just shows you haven't yet understood the difference between human nature and angelic nature. It would be wise to study this further before confidently boasting in someone else's error.

 

[Hiddenthings]

@talons Your laughing is just a facade masking your inability to grasp the truth.

 

[Jericho]

If a being cannot die - can they sin?

Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

What you believe is the eternal life you have in Christ is one capable of sin!

Thank you for responding.

1 Co 6:3 says that we will judge angels. How do you reconcile that? Why would we need to judge angles if they cannot sin?

I'm curious to know where you're coming from. Do you believe Lucifer\Satan is an actual entity? What are your views on hell?

 

[Wick Stick]

It is well established that both Peter and Jude quoted from the Book of Enoch. So, you may not believe in fallen angel theology, but apparently they did.

I've made the same argument myself, but... that doesn't necessarily logically follow. An example illustrates it...

In a recent post, I quoted from the movie Men in Black. Does that mean I am endorsing that movie as literal and factual? Are the aliens among us? No.

By the same logic, neither does Jude quoting Enoch mean that he endorses that book as literal and factual. It doesn't it rule it out, either. But all we can really conclude is that he was familiar with the book and so was his audience.

 

[Hiddenthings]

Thank you for responding.

1 Co 6:3 says that we will judge angels. How do you reconcile that? Why would we need to judge angles if they cannot sin?

I'm curious to know where you're coming from. Do you believe Lucifer\Satan is an actual entity? What are your views on hell?

I'm assuming you do not understand 1 Cor 6:3

Firstly, what is the context?
How can you prove these are divine angels (messengers) or human messengers?
Once you understand the context do you think the Saints will have a role in the Kingdom age of judging if is so. who?

Lucifer has been conclusively proven to be the King of Tyre here Unlocking Ezekiel 28

Hell is merely the Grave which given the harshest of metaphors in the Bible. It's eternal nature is set against eternal life.

 

[Jericho]

By the same logic, neither does Jude quoting Enoch mean that he endorses that book as literal and factual. It doesn't it rule it out, either. But all we can really conclude is that he was familiar with the book and so was his audience.

I would think that the context would make it clear if the quote was an endorsement or a repudiation. I don't see anything to suggest it was the latter. What I do see is that Enoch shaped their worldview; otherwise, why would they quote it at all? Jude calls Enoch a prophet, and there is no other recorded prophecy attributed to Enoch that I'm aware of except the Book of Enoch.

 

[Jericho]

Firstly, what is the context?
How can you prove these are divine angels (messengers) or human messengers?

It seems you like to pick and choose when "angelos" refers to divine angels. Tell me, why is it translated as "angels" in 1 Co 6:3 in every Bible translation? Did all the biblical scholars somehow miss it? No, because "angelos" means angels (i.e. divine beings). That's the way it's used in the NT the vast majority of the times. There are maybe three instances when it's used to refer to human messengers. That's it.

Lucifer has been conclusively proven to be the King of Tyre here Unlocking Ezekiel 28

Read Eze 28 carefully. Was the King of Tyre ever in Eden? Was he ever an anointed cherub? Lucifer is portrayed as the true power behind the king of Tyre in Eze 28.

Hell is merely the Grave which given the harshest of metaphors in the Bible. It's eternal nature is set against eternal life.

Allegory then?

 

[Toro55]

Jesus spoke the most about hell does that make it Allegory I don't think so or did Jesus make it up..

Satan test Jesus in the dessert offering power wealth and security much like today.Is Satan a made up being I don't think so or did Jesus make it up.

Peter and Jude referenced the punishment the Angels received in Enoch - the lake of fire.They are chained up until the end when they will receive their punishment.The Angels asked Enoch to ask for eternal life for their children who are the Nephilim which God refuses to do.The Angels know their fate they have been judged.Their children became demons upon humanity as a punishment for women having relations with Angels until the end.

Paul is speaking that one day human's will sit on the counsel of God judging Angels.

 

[Matthias]

From my X / Twitter “For you” feed this afternoon -

“Satan’s strategy has always been to present deception in a beautiful wrapper, to make spiritual rebellion look like enlightenment, to package rebellion as liberation, and he has used media platforms to spread his lies with alarming success.”

(Doreen Virtue)

https://x.com/doreenvirtue/status/1951380866502107431?s=46&t=T64e94h2unfHH-VO4i01zA