Christianity is NOT Derived From Judaism

[Jack]

Did not! Others called Him a Jew.

Make that "King of the Jews". Already quoted one NT verse that you ignored.

Matthew 2:2
2 saying, "Where is He who has been born King of the Jews? For we have seen His star in the East and have come to worship Him."

You won't find anywhere written where Jesus said He was king of the Jews.

Mark 15:2
2 Then Pilate asked Him, "Are You the King of the Jews?" He answered and said to him, "It is as you say."

Lord Jesus Christ is KING of ISRAEL, and head of The Church.

Yes indeed!

The Jews don't even represent all of the 12 tribes of Israel, but those of the southern "kingdom of Judah" only that remained in the holy land when God scattered the northern ten tribes out of the land first, among the Gentiles, and their having lost their heritage as part of Israel.

Then why will Jesus return to fight for Israel in the Land of the Bible. Israel has over 7 MILLION Jews!

 

[Jack]

You can't even rightly divide the Scriptures according to their timelines. That Ezekiel 11 gathering is STILL FUTURE and only will happen when Jesus returns. And it will involve the BELIEVING REMNANT of the Jews being gathered by Him, which are part of His Church.

Let's try again.

Ezekiel 11:17-20
17 Therefore say, 'Thus says the Lord GOD: "I will gather you from the peoples, assemble you from the countries where you have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel." '

And He did!

18 And they will go there, and they will take away all its detestable things and all its abominations from there.
19 Then I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within them, and take the stony heart out of their flesh, and give them a heart of flesh, 20 that they may walk in My statutes and keep My judgments and do them; and they shall be My people, and I will be their God.

 

[Soyeong]

I agree they need God’s grace to be saved but what I’m saying is that unbelievers are not under the covenant of grace which means that if they stay that way they will be judged by the law.

In Psalm 119:29, he wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey the Torah, which means that the Mosaic Covenant is a covenant of grace and law. Likewise, Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way that he and Israel might know Him, and in Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so the goal of the Torah is to graciously teaching us how to know God and Jesus by walking in His way, which is His gift of eternal life, and which again means that the Mosaic Covenant was a covenant of grace and law. In Jeremiah 31:33, the New Covenant involves God putting the Torah in our minds and writing it on our hearts, so it is also a covenant of grace and law along with all of God's other covenants.

 

[IndianaRob]

I don't interpret what Paul said that way. I interpret the fulness of the Gentiles to mean when during this present world The Gospel being accepted by the Gentiles is complete, and means it will be the day of Christ's future return.

At the end of Zechariah 12 it says the families of Israel will mourn for Him, meaning when He returns. In Luke 23 Jesus quoted the "Blessed are the barren..." metaphor from Isaiah 54 to those daughters of Jerusalem who wept for Him when He was bearing His cross to be crucified. He showed the deceived Jews will be repeating that "Blessed are the barren..." about those of His saints that were faithful and waited on Him to come. And then they shall wish for the mountains and the hills to fall on them, which is put for their feeling shame at having rejected Him.

Thus Jesus was pointing to 'spiritually blinded' Jews who do love The LORD and have every intention of worshiping Him only. It's just that they were deceived because of the blindness God put upon them so The Gospel would go to the Gentiles (and to the Ten Tribes of the "house of Israel" scattered among the Gentiles.) That is why these will feel shame when Jesus does appear to them. As for the 'false Jews' that the devil sowed among Judah (the good wheat in Christ's parable of the tares of the field), they won't feel shame, for they have been against Jesus Christ from the very start working for the devil while hiding among true Judah (see John 8). But these Jesus speaks to below are those deceived Jews that are... actually of the 'seed' of Israel, but God blinded them spiritually.

Luke 23:27-31
27 And there followed Him a great company of people, and of women, which also bewailed and lamented Him.

28 But Jesus turning unto them said, "Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for Me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children.
29 For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, 'Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck.'
30 Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, 'Fall on us'; and to the hills, 'Cover us.'"

31 For if they do these things in a green tree, what shall be done in the dry?"
KJV

I understand, Davy. I come from a dispensationalist background, but I left that many years ago, so this one we simply disagree.

 

[WitnessX]

The Mishnah and Talmud are just the Rabbi's interpretations on how Torah, the Writings, and the Prophets should be applied to real life. Baptists, Pentecostals, Methodists, Catholics, Eastern Orthodox all have their own interpretations of the Old and New Testament writings. As does every Tom, Dick, and Harriet on this forum.

All nonsense, just like the Methodist, catholic, Eastern Orthodox interpretations and additions. You go ahead and keep up the false propaganda. It won’t end well for you.

 

[David in NJ]

In Psalm 119:29, he wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey the Torah, which means that the Mosaic Covenant is a covenant of grace and law. Likewise, Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way that he and Israel might know Him, and in Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so the goal of the Torah is to graciously teaching us how to know God and Jesus by walking in His way, which is His gift of eternal life, and which again means that the Mosaic Covenant was a covenant of grace and law. In Jeremiah 31:33, the New Covenant involves God putting the Torah in our minds and writing it on our hearts, so it is also a covenant of grace and law along with all of God's other covenants.

You are missaligning what the LORD said to Moses.

You cannot add the OT to the NT = JESUS said "Don't do it"

What lawslessness was JESUS referring too??? = That which Speaks of HIM and HIS Commandments

Always remember that the 10 Commandments are the "lawlessness" that JESUS Speaks of and those which HE gave to us in the NT

 

[David in NJ]

Some Christians have issues with change but the scriptures are all about change.
Thing changed when Adam and Eve were booted out of paradise.
Things changed between Adam and Eve and Abraham. Abraham effectively started the Yahwist religion.
Things changed between Abraham and Moses and the Mosaic Law.
Things changed when the Temple was built.
Things changed when the Temples were destroyed.
Things changed when the Israelite kingdoms were conquered.
Things changed with the advent of Jewish-Christians
And there was a big change when Paul welcomed Pagans into Christianity. Before that there were Mosaic Laws against any agreement or accord with Pagans. For the Pagans, the Law was kill all that breathed.
The Jews were expecting Elijah to come down in a fiery chariot and introduce the Messiah. (That is why all the questions about Elijah in the New Testament.) They were expecting for the Messiah to be a human warlord king that would take out their oppressors in the Terrible Day of the Lord. This human warlord king would establish his kingdom that would last forever and the Mosaic Law and animal sacrifices would go on forever. None of that happened....so that was a change.
Yeshua said, blessed are the peace makers. And He did not tell the Jews or Christian to rebel against Rome.
The phrase God so love the world does not appear in Old Testament scriptures.
The phrase kill all that breaths would not come out of Yeshua's mouth.
The religion went from God fearing to God loving.
The Mosaic Law does not apply to Christians, that is a change.

Does the Mosaic law apply to Jews?

 

[Soyeong]

That wrongly assumes... that Judaism represents the true worship of God per the old covenant, and even is wrongly regarded as such by Jews today who reject Jesus of Nazareth as The Christ-Messiah. What didn't you understand with what Jesus said in those Scriptures I posted in my original post?

Judaism is the religion that is based on the following the Torah, which God gave to Israel through Moses. In Deuteronomy 5:31-33 Moses wrote down everything that God spoke to him without departing him it, and Jesu said that man shall not live by bread alone but by every word that comes from the moth of God (Deuteronomy 8:3). Christians can criticize Christian leaders or traditions without being opposed to Christianity itself and the same is true for Judaism. The Talmud contains harsh words that Pharisees said towards other Pharisees, so Jesus was not the only one to do that, and that does not mean that they were against Pharisaism or Judaism.

Jews can reject a false representation of Christ without rejecting the actual Christ. For example, Jews have been persecuted in the name of Christ over the past two thousands years, so there is nothing wrong with rejecting that Christ. In Deuteronomy 13, the way that God instructed to determine that someone is a false prophet is if they speak against obeying the Torah, so if Jesus has done that as many Christians teach that he did, then Jews who have rejected him for that reason would be correctly doing what God has instructed them to do out of love for Him, so again there is nothing wrong with rejecting that Christ. The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact likeness of His character (Hebrews 1:3), which he embodied through his works by setting a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to the Torah and many Jews fully support embodying God's character traits in obedience to the Torah, so they have not rejected the actual Christ.

 

[Soyeong]

The religion of Judaism is about the 'traditions' the Jews that went captive to Babylon created. That's where their Babylonian Talmud they still follow to this day came from. It is corruption, and Jesus rebuked their traditions of men. So to claim Christianity is based on Judaism is like saying the Jews did not reject Jesus and did not have Him crucified.

It would be impossible for someone to follow the Torah without following traditions for how to follow it. There are many issues that would naturally arise for a nation that has decided to put the Torah into practice, which is why Moses got swamped with questions and had to appoint a system of judges. For example, Numbers 15:38 instruct to wear fingers on the corners of our garments with a thread of blue in each, however, it doesn't say anything about what shade of blue to use, what other colors to use, what to use to make the pigment, how long they should be, how they should be attached to our garments, how many knots should be tied, what to do if our garments don't have corners, etc., so these things got left to tradition, and following this tradition does not involve following a different religion that the one that God instituted based on the Torah.

In Deuteronomy 17:8-13, it gives authority to priests and judges to make rulings about how to correctly obey the Torah, which the community was obligated to obey, and which got passed down as case law and oral that that eventually became codified in the Talmud. This means that God partnered with Israel in allowing some day about the meaning of the Torah, so if they went through the right procedures and methods of interpretation and ended up interpreting the Torah in a way that was not what God intended, then the community was still obligated by God to obey the ruling and they did not have the freedom to decide to do their own thing instead if they thought that the ruling was wrong. Whatever they bound or loosed on earth would be bound or loosed in heaven (Matthew 18:18). In Matthew 23:1-4, Jesus recognized that the scribes and Pharisees had this authority by saying that they sit in the Seat of Moses and by instructing his followers to do and observe all that they said.

The Talmud is more concerned with teach how to think than what to think and it contributors were very logical and dedicated to basing their positions on what was stated in the Tanakh. The Talmud derived many things from the OT that are also taught in the NT, so it was part of the same world. There are also many things in the Talmud that Christians would have no problem agreeing with even if they don't consider it to be authoritative. It often uses hypothetical extremes in order to argue for lesser cases. For example, if a woman gives birth, then becomes pregnant again, but miscarries on the evening of the 81st day, then would she be required to bring one offering or two? The Talmud goes back and forth on this issue and its like this person is making a really good point that I didn't think about and I thought was solid but this other person is making a really good counterargument and another person is saying that you might that this is the case because of that, but you would be wrong because of this, and so forth. A Christian would have no problem agreeing with the arguments being made and there is nothing about this that involves following a different religion than the one that God instituted.

 

[Soyeong]

You are missaligning what the LORD said to Moses.

You cannot add the OT to the NT = JESUS said "Don't do it"

What lawslessness was JESUS referring too??? = That which Speaks of HIM and HIS Commandments

Always remember that the 10 Commandments are the "lawlessness" that JESUS Speaks of and those which HE gave to us in the NT

Please cite where Jesus said that. Jesus and the Jews that he spent his ministry interacting with were all under the Mosaic Covenant, so everything that he spent his ministry teaching up until he established the New Covenant at the end of his ministry was in regard to how to live under the Mosaic Covenant in obedience to the Law of Moses. In that context, the only thing that "lawlessness" can refer to is in contrast to obeying the Law of Moses, which is what the NT consistently uses it in regard to. Jesus said that man shall not live by bread alone but by every word that comes from the mouth of God (Deuteronomy 8:3), so he affirmed everything that God spoke to Moses (Deuteronomy 5:31-33). Moreover, Jesus did not establish the New Covenant for the purpose of nullifying anything that he sent his ministry teaching or so that we could continue to have the same lawlessness that caused the New Covenant to be needed in the first place, but other the New Covenant still involves following the Torah (Jeremiah 31:33, Ezekiel 36:26-27). In Deuteronomy 4:2, it is a sin to add to or subtract from the Torah, so Jesus did not do that in disagreement with what the Father has spoken.