Christianity: "One flock with one Shepherd?

[dataylor]

According to United Nations statistics, in Year 1989 there were over 23,000 “competing and often contradictory denominations” (reference 1). And just 25 years later in 2014, the Pew Forum reported how the Center for the Study of Global Christianity at Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary found 45,000 separate Christian denominations (reference 2).

So how does this situation reconcile with our Lord's words from John 10:16:

I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd.

And since numerous denominations with different doctrines cannot all be teaching the precise words of Jesus Christ, this verse should cause those attending one of today’s Christian denominations to pause and consider whether they are hearing the precise message of Jesus Christ from their church pulpits.

Unfortunately, modern Christians have duplicated the same kind of competing, contradictory and multi-denominational religions that Jesus condemned during His ministry...while most Christians do not seem to care.

Question: Is the current state of the Christian Church with it’s numerous denominations having differing doctrines really what Jesus Christ wants of His followers?

Reference 1: World Census of Religious Activities [U.N. Information Center, NY, 1989]). Cited in Frank Schaeffer’s book Dancing Alone (Brookline, MA: Holy Cross Press, 1994), page 4.

Reference 2: http://www.gordonconwell.edu/resources/documents/statusofglobalmission.pdf

 

[Deborah_]

Over the centuries, divisions have developed within the Church for a variety of reasons: doctrinal disagreements, personal rivalries, ethnic and cultural differences, alternative styles of worship and patterns of church government.

.....

The fragmentation of the Church is one of those realities that we have to live with – and we should not assume that it is contrary to God’s will. It was God who caused the kingdom of Israel to split in two after the death of Solomon, because of Solomon’s idolatry and pride (I Kings 11:29-39). In some ways a multi-denominational Church may even be a blessing in disguise: not only would a single monolithic (and now global) organisation be unwieldy to manage, but its leaders would have far too much power for their own (or the Church’s) good. If a single church were infected with false doctrine, that could be fatal; but with many different churches, only one at a time can be corrupted.
Denominations are not all bad; they can be a practical and helpful way of organising churches. But they must not be confused with THE Church. One helpful illustration is that of a tree: the twigs and leaves on one side of a large tree may seem to have little to do with those on the other side – yet they are all joined to the same trunk, and draw their life from the same root.
.....
Although the nation of Israel were one people, within that nation there were twelve distinct tribes. They had much in common: a single ancestor (Jacob), a common language, the same covenant sign (circumcision), a shared history of deliverance (at the Passover) and one law governing their daily life and worship. And yet as time went on, especially after they were settled in different parts of the country, the various tribes inevitably developed different dialects and traditions.
Whether this was a good or bad thing depended not on the differences themselves, but on what they did with them. They could choose to act together, or to try to deal with their problems independently. When united, they could defend their borders against foreign invasion; but the book of Judges reveals that much of the time they were more concerned with furthering their own interests, or even fighting amongst themselves. And during the times of mutual hostility, harmless differences could be used as ‘labels’ to condemn those of the ‘wrong’ tribe (Judges 12:4-6).
The same could be said about the differences between Christian denominations today. Most of them do not matter – unless we insist on making them ‘articles of faith’.
https://deborahsbiblestudies.wordpress.com/the-church/the-church-is-one/

 

[mjrhealth]

Remember Peter,

Joh 21:15 So when they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs.
Joh 21:16 He saith to him again the second time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep.
Joh 21:17 He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

He as far as we know, was the only one sent to feed Jesus Sheep, Who are His Sheep.

Joh 10:25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
Joh 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
Joh 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.

Not everyone who is a christian are His sheep, how can one be if they dont listen to Him or hear His voice. When all go to Him and listen and hear Him and we are all one in Him than we will be one flock, untill that time His sheep shall remain scattered and the goats will eat what is not theirs.

In all His Love

 

[heretoeternity]

Denominations are a divide and conquer mechanism used by satan....you are right..they all cannot be right, well most of them are wrong....they digress and deviate from the Bible and the true word of God. Most denominations have become strictly financially oriented, and are 'social clubs" or "drop in centres" for the bored people who would like to drop in for an hour or two a week and be entertained, and have their "ears tickled" by preaching that makes them feel like they are persuing the christian faith, when in fact, they are being led astray..remember the words of Jesus....wide is the way that leads to destruction, narrow is the way that leads to salvation, few shall find it....

 

[DPMartin]

Most denominations are a result of the nature of the humans given charge thereof. And we all know that it’s human nature to be right about what we think. But the flaw, so exploited by the enemy in that is, what we think is incorrect in the first place. So it is with the churches, their theology is what they think, and they are correct about what they think, but the theology is of men, therefore incorrect, in accordance with the Kingdom of God and It’s King, which is of God. Note look to Jesus He is the interpretation, because He is the fulfillment of all things in accordance to the will of God the Father.

　
This is a example of the Lord’s view of human nature executed within the ministries with the Israelites:
Matthew 23:
1: Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
2: Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
3: All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
4: For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.
5: But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,
6: And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues,
7: And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi.
8: But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.
9: And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
10: Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.
11: But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.

There are those who value the benefits of the position of feeding the sheep, and there are those who value the well being of the sheep, and what the sheep should be fed. They value what people believe about them, and don’t value what they believe about the Lord Jesus and His Kingdom, unless it has to do with what people believe about them. They don’t value the Truth, they value what works for them to get what they want, and fulfills their agendas.

 

[OzSpen]

Most denominations are a result of the nature of the humans given charge thereof. And we all know that it’s human nature to be right about what we think. But the flaw, so exploited by the enemy in that is, what we think is incorrect in the first place. So it is with the churches, their theology is what they think, and they are correct about what they think, but the theology is of men, therefore incorrect, in accordance with the Kingdom of God and It’s King, which is of God. Note look to Jesus He is the interpretation, because He is the fulfillment of all things in accordance to the will of God the Father.

DP,

From your statement here, you seem to be making your own theology of the church: 'So it is with the churches, their theology is what they think, and they are correct about what they think, but the theology is of men, therefore incorrect'.

Is this kind of theology from DP? The view, 'Look to Jesus He is the interpretation', has overtones of misunderstanding. Interpretation (hermeneutics) is what we do with a text or the words of a person. To understand the words of Jesus in the NT, we need to follow rules of interpretation. How can He be the interpretation?

Just some thoughts from a fellow traveller.

Oz

 

[mjrhealth]

we need to follow rules of interpretation.

There is one rule,

1Jn_5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

1Co_2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

Heb 3:7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,

But ignored, the Holy spirit to teach us all things..

Pro 3:3 Let not mercy and truth forsake thee: bind them about thy neck; write them upon the table of thine heart:
Pro 3:4 So shalt thou find favour and good understanding in the sight of God and man.
Pro 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
Pro 3:6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

In all His Love

 

[OzSpen]

There is one rule,

1Jn_5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

1Co_2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

Heb 3:7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,

But ignored, the Holy spirit to teach us all things..

Pro 3:3 Let not mercy and truth forsake thee: bind them about thy neck; write them upon the table of thine heart:
Pro 3:4 So shalt thou find favour and good understanding in the sight of God and man.
Pro 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
Pro 3:6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

In all His Love

You seem to be on another planet.

I wrote: 'Interpretation (hermeneutics) is what we do with a text or the words of a person. To understand the words of Jesus in the NT, we need to follow rules of interpretation'

And that was your super spiritual explanation. I wish you luck with understanding the grammar of the Greek NT that way and then understanding the translation in context. I support the ministry of the Holy Spirit in understanding Scripture. But that was not the issue I was addressing.

Here you have given a red herring response.

 

[newbirth]

According to United Nations statistics, in Year 1989 there were over 23,000 “competing and often contradictory denominations” (reference 1). And just 25 years later in 2014, the Pew Forum reported how the Center for the Study of Global Christianity at Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary found 45,000 separate Christian denominations (reference 2).

So how does this situation reconcile with our Lord's words from John 10:16:

I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd.

And since numerous denominations with different doctrines cannot all be teaching the precise words of Jesus Christ, this verse should cause those attending one of today’s Christian denominations to pause and consider whether they are hearing the precise message of Jesus Christ from their church pulpits.

Unfortunately, modern Christians have duplicated the same kind of competing, contradictory and multi-denominational religions that Jesus condemned during His ministry...while most Christians do not seem to care.

Question: Is the current state of the Christian Church with it’s numerous denominations having differing doctrines really what Jesus Christ wants of His followers?

Reference 1: World Census of Religious Activities [U.N. Information Center, NY, 1989]). Cited in Frank Schaeffer’s book Dancing Alone (Brookline, MA: Holy Cross Press, 1994), page 4.

Reference 2: http://www.gordonconwell.edu/resources/documents/statusofglobalmission.pdf

your problem is you are measuring God's people by your own standards...God did not call anyone to be christians...we are called to be saints...people are to busy being everything else but what God called them to be...


Colossians 1:9-13King James Version (KJV)
9 For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding;
10 That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God;
11 Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness;
12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

 

[newbirth]

There is one rule,

1Jn_5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

1Co_2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

Heb 3:7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,

But ignored, the Holy spirit to teach us all things..

Pro 3:3 Let not mercy and truth forsake thee: bind them about thy neck; write them upon the table of thine heart:
Pro 3:4 So shalt thou find favour and good understanding in the sight of God and man.
Pro 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
Pro 3:6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

In all His Love

are you still quoting comma johannine

 

[dataylor]

your problem is you are measuring God's people by your own standards...God did not call anyone to be christians...we are called to be saints...people are to busy being everything else but what God called them to be...
Colossians 1:9-13King James Version (KJV)
9 For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding;
10 That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God;
11 Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness;
12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:


Jesus said "follow me." So again, the word of Paul trump the words of Jesus. Is this Paul worship?

"This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men" (Matthew 15:8-9).

 

[mjrhealth]

are you still quoting comma johannine

Who the heck are they. Its good not being a scholar or "learned".

 

[iakov]

According to United Nations statistics, in Year 1989 there were over 23,000 “competing and often contradictory denominations” (reference 1). And just 25 years later in 2014, the Pew Forum reported how the Center for the Study of Global Christianity at Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary found 45,000 separate Christian denominations (reference 2).

So how does this situation reconcile with our Lord's words from John 10:16:

I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd.

And since numerous denominations with different doctrines cannot all be teaching the precise words of Jesus Christ, this verse should cause those attending one of today’s Christian denominations to pause and consider whether they are hearing the precise message of Jesus Christ from their church pulpits.

Unfortunately, modern Christians have duplicated the same kind of competing, contradictory and multi-denominational religions that Jesus condemned during His ministry...while most Christians do not seem to care.

Question: Is the current state of the Christian Church with it’s numerous denominations having differing doctrines really what Jesus Christ wants of His followers?

Reference 1: World Census of Religious Activities [U.N. Information Center, NY, 1989]). Cited in Frank Schaeffer’s book Dancing Alone (Brookline, MA: Holy Cross Press, 1994), page 4.

Reference 2: http://www.gordonconwell.edu/resources/documents/statusofglobalmission.pdf

The other sheep Jesus was referring to were the Gentiles.

<<Question: Is the current state of the Christian Church with it’s numerous denominations having differing doctrines really what Jesus Christ wants of His followers?>>

Answer: What Jesus wants is what He said he wanted at John 17:20-23: I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. The glory which thou hast given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, I in them and thou in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that thou hast sent me and hast loved them even as thou hast loved me.

45,000 denominations is exactly what delights the devil and what he has worked so hard to accomplish because he was paying attention when Jesus said, "Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation, and every city or house divided against itself will not stand." ( Mat 12:25; Luk 11:17) Satan is absolutely delighted with the 45,000 denominations because it shouts to the world that God doesn't love them and God didn't send Jesus and it insures that the Kingdom of God on earth, that is: the Church, cannot stand against him because it is divided against itself.

But, will we repent or cling to our sects more than to Jesus' desire for us and when the son of man returns will he find faithfulness on the earth?

 

[dataylor]

The other sheep Jesus was referring to were the Gentiles.

<<Question: Is the current state of the Christian Church with it’s numerous denominations having differing doctrines really what Jesus Christ wants of His followers?>>

Answer: What Jesus wants is what He said he wanted at John 17:20-23: I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. The glory which thou hast given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, I in them and thou in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that thou hast sent me and hast loved them even as thou hast loved me.

45,000 denominations is exactly what delights the devil and what he has worked so hard to accomplish because he was paying attention when Jesus said, "Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation, and every city or house divided against itself will not stand." ( Mat 12:25; Luk 11:17) Satan is absolutely delighted with the 45,000 denominations because it shouts to the world that God doesn't love them and God didn't send Jesus and it insures that the Kingdom of God on earth, that is: the Church, cannot stand against him because it is divided against itself.

But, will we repent or cling to our sects more than to Jesus' desire for us and when the son of man returns will he find faithfulness on the earth?

<>
How very heartwarming to see that someone else understands the problem! Seems that most Christians have their heads in the sand.

 

[hatedbyall]

"and they were all of one mind..."


Acts something or other..

sounds like Catholicism. The Church believes the same no matter where it is located, Rome or elsewhere

 

[StanJ]

"and they were all of one mind..."
Acts something or other..
sounds like Catholicism. The Church believes the same no matter where it is located, Rome or elsewhere

Yes it is Acts 4:32, but it is nothing like the Roman Catholic Church. This was the first communal setting in early Christianity and as such they were all of one heart and mind. They were all committed to the way and all committed to one another. Of course that unanimity didn't last for long as is evidenced by Ananias and Sapphira. Having grown up in the Roman Catholic Church I can assure you that it was never of one mind and heart.

 

[OzSpen]

According to United Nations statistics, in Year 1989 there were over 23,000 “competing and often contradictory denominations” (reference 1). And just 25 years later in 2014, the Pew Forum reported how the Center for the Study of Global Christianity at Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary found 45,000 separate Christian denominations (reference 2).

So how does this situation reconcile with our Lord's words from John 10:16:

I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd.

And since numerous denominations with different doctrines cannot all be teaching the precise words of Jesus Christ, this verse should cause those attending one of today’s Christian denominations to pause and consider whether they are hearing the precise message of Jesus Christ from their church pulpits.

Unfortunately, modern Christians have duplicated the same kind of competing, contradictory and multi-denominational religions that Jesus condemned during His ministry...while most Christians do not seem to care.

Question: Is the current state of the Christian Church with it’s numerous denominations having differing doctrines really what Jesus Christ wants of His followers?

Reference 1: World Census of Religious Activities [U.N. Information Center, NY, 1989]). Cited in Frank Schaeffer’s book Dancing Alone (Brookline, MA: Holy Cross Press, 1994), page 4.

Reference 2: http://www.gordonconwell.edu/resources/documents/statusofglobalmission.pdf

We can be of one flock with one Shepherd but we all do not have the same opinion.

God gave us minds to think with and some have more information than others. Some are more logical in their thinking than others. Some of us are older and younger and have different intellectual ability.

And dare I say that some of us are at different levels of spiritual growth.

All of these are factors in assessing the issues surrounding being one flock and the thinking of the millions of sheep.

Oz

 

[hatedbyall]

Yes it is Acts 4:32, but it is nothing like the Roman Catholic Church. This was the first communal setting in early Christianity and as such they were all of one heart and mind. They were all committed to the way and all committed to one another. Of course that unanimity didn't last for long as is evidenced by Ananias and Sapphira. Having grown up in the Roman Catholic Church I can assure you that it was never of one mind and heart.

i know many hate the Church

 

[StanJ]

i know many hate the Church

Hate is a strong word and I personally don't hate the RCC. I hated Hitler and I actually probably also hate Donald Trump but I don't hate the Catholic church or any church. From a Christian perspective I think we also have to understand that the church is the body of Christ and not any particular denomination.

 

[Newman]

I think we also have to understand that the church is the body of Christ and not any particular denomination.

If that is the case, how do we make sense of Matthew 18:17? If you and I have a dispute (about salvation, for instance) but belong to different denominations, to what authoritative church do we go to settle our differences?