Quantrill said:
That's strange. Just because 'slave' is being talked about, then you say it is stretching it to think 'slave is being talked about.
No....I said that you were so intent on the word 'slave', you were likening the state of belonging to Christ, to being owned in America. The two states are not the same, but you are claiming they are, just because they both come under the title of 'slave.'
But you have not even tried (probably because you can't) to use bible verses to liken our state in belonging to Christ, to how a Christian is told to treat everyone....
So, you are hanging your case on a single word....'slave'....and not on biblical proof, or historical fact.
The slavery you describe was American slavery, was European slavery, was Roman slavery, was Hebrew slavery concerning those who they conquered as instructed by God. See above post. So you are really stretching it to try and say slavery just isn't real slavery because you are Chrsitian and your Master is God. No one is saying it isn't the best thing that could happen to us. But it is still slavery. It isn't 'independence and freedom'
No. History and scripture contradict you.
And you misunderstand me. When I said living under Christ is freedom, I meant (and did say this), that it is freedom from sin. Sometimes it feels like living under 'rules', but being free from sin, and living under that freedom, love and grace that comes with Christ, we experience joy...
If you can pull one testimony from a traditional American slave, that says that they experienced joy from being 'owned' by someone, then.....then, I might consider your argument.
But until then, I will take both scripture, and historical eyewitnesses and testimonies, above someone I don't know, claiming otherwise.
Please. You're asking for a verse to support your wrong definition of slavery. I have given you plenty to support slavery as an institution provided for by God.
No....I am asking you for a verse to support your claims. If you cannot give them, then I wonder why you still insist others believe you.
You are claiming that 'slavery' to Christ is the same state as 'slavery' in America.
Therefore the onus is on you to come up with the proof.
You're dreaming of 'indentured servitude'. Before many were taken slaves in Joshuas day, all the men were slaughtered. The women and children then divided up. Does that sound like indentured servitude to you?
Ummm....if the men were slaughtered, then they were never slaves...they were dead. God told his people to kill them, and they did. I'm not here to discuss or argue God's right to make that call. The topic at hand is if slavery under the Israelite people is the same slavery that was seen in America.
It is biblical and historical fact that if a person was unable to pay their debts, they would enter into 'slavery' to the person they owed. They then worked until that debt was payed, or until there was a Jubilee year. Those facts in and of themselves proves a very big difference and has a cascading implications.
A slave is a slave. Whether he is under better conditions in some places than others is immaterial Whether you agree with the conditions he is under is immaterial. He is still a slave. The Master/Slave relationship is in place. Just like you are a slave to God. As I am. It doesn't bother me at all. But just because it was the best thing that could happen for me, doesn't mean it isn't slavery.
Quantrill
No, it is not immaterial. Not at all. Being 'slaves' under Christ we are treated as beloved sons and daughters. He loves us, works things for our good, gives us wonderful gifts....gives us redemption and eternal life!
Being a slave in America was the opposite....you cannot even aply Jesus' command for us to love others as we love ourselves to the state. They were owned completely....they had no say over basics....what they did, what they ate (or didn't eat), where they lived, if they were warn or cold, if their children were killed, sold away, raped.....the attrocities go on and on.
The more you try and link the two states together, the less your argument seems valid. Just because they have the label 'slave' does not....does not...make them similar states. There is no way, biblically or factually, that you can marry them.
However....if going back to the OP....I do not think that the south was devoid of genuine Christians. And I hope that even if they were hopeless to fundamentally change the nature of the type of 'slavery' that was going on, that they treated everyone....slave or no....as 'brothers and sisters'....just as Jesus demanded of us.
