Christians are in Rebellion against God for not following Torah

[Soyeong]

but that the New Testament distinguishes between God’s eternal righteousness and the Mosaic covenant as the governing covenant for His people.

Where? Do you believe in the existence of the God who has the character traits that the Law of Moses was given in order to teach us how to embody?

Jeremiah 31:32

While it is true that the New Covenant is not like the covenant that God made with their fathers, the New Covenant involves God putting the Torah in our minds and writing it on our hearts (Hebrews 8:10), so the difference is not in regard to following the Torah, and the fact that the Mosaic Covenant has become obsolete does not means that followers of Christ should not continue to follow his example of obedience to the Torah. In Exodus 20:6 God wanted His children to love Him and obey His commandments, so obedience to the Torah has always been a matter of the heart. Christ spent his ministry teaching his followers to obey the Torah by word and by example and the reason why he established the New Covenant was not in order to nullify anything that he spent his ministry teaching or so that we could continue to have the same lawlessness that caused the New Covenant to be needed in the first place, but rather the New Covenant still involves following the Torah (Jeremiah 31:3).

Hebrews 7:12.

If the way to embody God's righteousness could change, then God's righteousness and righteous laws would not be eternal. So Hebrews 7:12 could not be referring to a change of the law in regard to its content, such as with it becoming righteous to commit adultery or sinful to do charity, but rather the context is speaking about a change of the priesthood, which would required a change of the law in regard to its administration. A priesthood led by God's Word made flesh does not involve departing from God's Word.

because love is the righteousness the law was aiming at,

Everything in the Torah is either in regard to how to love God or our neighbor, which is why love fulfills it and why Jesus said in Matthew 22:36-40 that those are the greatest two commandments and that all of the other commandments hang on them. So the position that we should obey the greatest two commandments is also the position the we should obey the rest of the commandments that hang on them. For example, if someone thought that they only needed to love God and their neighbor, so they did not need to refrain from committing murder or kidnapping, then they would have an incomplete understanding of what it means to love God and their neighbor, and the same is true about everything else in the Torah. Someone who was correctly obeying the greatest two commandments would be indistinguishable from someone who was correctly obeying the rest of the Torah because they would both be following the same example that Jesus set for us to follow.

In Romans 7:6

In Romans 7:22-23, Paul said that he delighted in obeying the Law of God in contrast with the of sin, which was waging war with the law of his mind and held him captive, so please making the case for why being released from a law that held us captive should be interpreted as referring to being released from what Paul delighted in doing rather than being released from the law that he described as holding him captive. Wouldn't it make a whole lot more sense for Paul to want to be released from the law that was hindering him from doing the good that he wanted to do and delighted in doing so that he could be free to do that rather than him wanting to be released from what he delighted in doing so that he could be free to be held captive to sin?

not under law but under grace.

You have given no justification for insisting that Paul was referring to the Law of Moses. The Law of Moses is not sinful, but how we know what sin is (Romans 7:7), whereas the law of sin stirs up sinful passions in order to bear fruit unto death (Romans 7:5), so it is sinful. It is by the Law of Moses that we have knowledge of what sin is (Romans 3:20), so the position that we have been released from it is the position that Christians have been freed to become doers of what it reveals to be sin whereas the position that we are not free to sin is the position that we have not been released from the Law of Moses. Serving in the new way of the Spirit is in accordance with what God has instructed, not contrary to it. In Romans 8:3-4, we have been set free from sin in order to be free to meet the righteous requirement of the Law of God, not the other way around. The Spirit produces the righteousness that the Law of God requires us by leading us to obey it. I'm speaking about obeying the Mosaic Law under the New Covenant, not going back to the Mosaic Covenant.

Acts 15

Please interact with what I said in regard to Acts 15 in this post:

Christians are in Rebellion against God for not following Torah

(As I said on another thread, this to most of us is common sense and basic Biblical literacy, I let Grok take care of most of the work, unlike my favorite projects where Grok is my editor and I brainstorm and write most everything except the last editing fixes). Acts 15 context and the core...

www.christianityboard.com

You also appealed to Deuteronomy 13.

The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, has the character traits that the Law of Moses was given in order to teach us how to embody, which is why Deuteronomy 13 associates false prophets who speak against obeying the Law of Moses with those who teach to follow other gods. To follow different set of laws for how to embody a different set of character traits is to follow a different god with a different set of character traits than that of the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. For example, if someone refuses to follow God's instructions for how to be holy as He is holy, then they are following a god who is not holy. So if your interpretation of Acts 15 were correct that the Apostles were speaking against obeying the Law of Moses, then that would mean that they were false prophets, which is why I am strongly opposed to it. The position that we should uphold the Torah through faith is the opposite of the position that we have been released from it.

A tutor is not rejected as useless; rather, its temporary role has reached its goal.

The reason why the Law of Moses leads us to Christ is not so that we can then reject everything that he taught and go back to being doers of what it reveals to be wickedness.

2 Timothy 3:16

Everything that 2 Timothy 3:16-17 says that the OT is profitable for is in regard to our conduct. The reason why we should learn from the Bible is to learn what we should do.

We follow Jesus by walking in the Spirit

We can't follow Jesus instead of following his example of walking in obedience to the Law of Moses. We can't walk in the Spirit instead of following God's instructions in the Law of Moses for how to walk in the Spirit. We can't love God and our neighbor instead of following God's instructions in the Law of Moses to love God and our neighbor. We can't pursuing holiness instead of pursuing God's instructions in the Law of Moses for how to be holy as He is holy. We can't obey the teaching of Christ and his Apostles instead of following the Law of Moses that they taught. The Bible consistently refers to lawlessness in contrast with obeying the Law of Moses, so if it does not involve obeying it, then it is lawlessness. Our faith upholds the Law of Moses (Romans 3:31), so we can't have the obedience of faith instead of obeying the Law of Moses. Nowhere have I suggest that we should go back to the Mosaic Covenant and nowhere does the Bible state that Jesus fulfilled the Mosaic Covenant or even state that it is something that can be fulfilled.

 

[David in NJ]

(As I said on another thread, this to most of us is common sense and basic Biblical literacy, I let Grok take care of most of the work, unlike my favorite projects where Grok is my editor and I brainstorm and write most everything except the last editing fixes).


Acts 15 context and the core debate. The Jerusalem Council in Acts 15 addressed whether Gentile converts needed circumcision "according to the custom of Moses" to be saved (v. 1), and more broadly, whether they must keep the full law of Moses (v. 5, from Pharisee believers). The decision: no circumcision or full Torah yoke for salvation or basic inclusion; instead, four key abstentions (idols/polluted things, sexual immorality, strangled things, blood—vv. 20, 29), with the letter calling these a "no greater burden" (v. 28) that would let them "do well." James adds in v. 21: "For from ancient generations Moses has had in every city those who proclaim him, for he is read every Sabbath in the synagogues."

This isn't a "full Torah later" curriculum for Gentiles as a default expectation. The council resolved a salvation-and-fellowship crisis by affirming grace-based inclusion (Peter's speech, vv. 7-11) while addressing practical Jewish-Gentile table fellowship and idolatry avoidance. Paul and Barnabas's ministry to Gentiles already showed the Spirit's work without full Torah observance upfront.

Rabbi K's claims: "In rebellion," "starting point," and "hearing Moses"​

Your description matches common Torah-observant / Hebrew Roots / Pronomian interpretations (e.g., "starter set" language from channels like Biblical Roots/Professor Solberg, though he critiques the full Torahist spin). Rabbi Kevin (or similar voices) frames non-full-Torah Christians as rebellious, treating the four rules as minimal entry then synagogue learning toward broader obedience. Here's a granular breakdown from every major angle.

1. "Starting point / starter set" claim (minimal requirements, then full Torah via growth). This views the four as a "beginner pack" to cut pagan sins, with ongoing synagogue attendance (v. 21) implying progressive Torah observance for Gentiles. Proponents say it aligns with God-fearers in synagogues who gradually adopted more, and that full law was always the ideal post-faith.

Counter-evidence and problems:

• Textual flow: The letter presents these as sufficient ("no greater burden," "you will do well if you keep yourselves from these"). No "for now" or "until you learn more" language. The council explicitly rejects the Pharisee demand to "command them to keep the law of Moses" (v. 5). Adding "and then more later" as normative re-imposes the yoke Peter called unbearable (v. 10).
• Historical/practical context: These four echo Leviticus 17-18 (universal rules for sojourners in Israel: idolatry, blood, strangled meat, sexual sin) to enable mixed fellowship without forcing full conversion/circumcision. They address real 1st-century issues (temple prostitution, pagan meat, etc.), not a Torah ladder. Gentiles weren't expected to become de facto proselytes.
• Paul's later practice: In Acts 21:25, the decree is reiterated for Gentiles without expansion. Paul's letters (Galatians strongly against law for justification; Romans 14 on food/Sabbath as non-essential; Colossians 2:16-17 on shadows) treat broader Torah commands (circumcision, festivals, dietary beyond basics) as non-binding for Gentiles in Christ. He circumcised Timothy for Jewish mission strategy (Acts 16), not as rule.
• Solberg critique angle (which you mentioned): Even if "starting point," it risks shifting focus from Christ to performance. Hebrew Roots can subtly turn obedience into the center, echoing the very legalism the council opposed. Growth in holiness is via the Spirit and Scripture, not mandated synagogue Torah curriculum for all Gentiles.

2. "Hearing Moses read" (v. 21) as proof of progressive full Torah. Common Torahist reading: Gentiles will attend synagogue weekly, hear full Moses, and naturally adopt Sabbath, feasts, kosher, etc., over time. It's "evidence" the apostles expected ongoing Torah learning.

Stronger scholarly and contextual readings:

• Sensitivity to Jews: "Moses is read every Sabbath" explains why these four (already in Torah, familiar to Jews) won't shock synagogue-goers. Gentiles should accommodate Jewish scruples for unity—practical wisdom, not a curriculum mandate. David Wilber and others note it as continuity with prophets (Amos 9 quoted earlier), but not full law imposition.
• Contrast, not addition: It contrasts the new Gentile inclusion with long-standing Jewish practice. Jews have Moses preached; Gentiles get minimal rules for fellowship. Scholarly consensus (e.g., Bock) leans toward sensitivity or Jewish concerns guidance, not "learn the rest as requirement." No evidence the apostles commanded Gentile Sabbath-keeping or full dietary later.
• Broader NT: Hebrews, Galatians, etc., portray the old covenant as preparatory/shadow, fulfilled in Christ. "Moses" points to Christ (John 5:46; Luke 24:27). Synagogue attendance happened (Acts), but wasn't a Torah bootcamp for Gentiles. Many dispersed churches didn't center on it.
• Rebellion angle weakness: Labeling non-full-Torah observance "rebellion against God" elevates one interpretation to salvific/test-of-obedience level. The council and Paul warned against the opposite: adding law as yoke burdens grace (Galatians 5:1-4). Disobeying clear apostolic decree (idols, immorality, etc.) would be rebellion; not adopting extra-Torah commands isn't, per the text.

3. "In rebellion" thesis. This is strong rhetoric. If the apostles set a floor (not ceiling) and Spirit-led growth varies, calling standard Christian practice "rebellion" over-reads. Empirical NT church: diverse observance, unity around Christ/essentials (1 Cor 8-10 on idols/meat; Rom 14). Early church fathers moved away from mandatory Torah elements. Rebellion language fits rejecting the decree itself or core morality, not this debate.

Other angles (granular):

• Salvation vs. sanctification: Council was about salvation/entry (not "you cannot be saved" without circumcision). Post-salvation growth is discipleship, not uniform Torah.
• One Law vs. two-house views: Some Torahists distinguish Jew/Gentile roles; others say one law for all. Acts 15 leans against uniform application.
• Prophetic fulfillment: James quotes Amos 9 (rebuilding David's tent so Gentiles seek the Lord)—inclusion, not conversion to Judaism.
• Modern application: Christians should study OT deeply (all Scripture profitable, 2 Tim 3:16), avoid idolatry/immorality, pursue holiness. Many do via church, personal study—not requiring synagogue. Disagreement here is secondary, not rebellion. Sarcasm in debate often arises when one side frames the other as disobedient to God.

Overall assessment: The "starting point + hearing Moses = full Torah" view is a creative but strained reading. It imports assumptions not explicit in the text or consistent with Paul's ministry. The council liberated Gentiles from the full yoke while preserving unity—grace + minimal essentials. Your relief at sarcasm makes sense; these debates get circular when positions harden into "thus saith the Lord" on inferences.

CHRIST fulfilled Torah for no man could, not even Moses, Samuel or Daniel

CHRIST is LORD of the Sabbath

CHRIST is King of kings and LORD of Lords

CHRIST is the Alpha and the Omega

CHRIST is the HOLY ONE

CHRIST is the Annointed ONE

CHRIST is the Radiance of God's Glory, the Perfect & Exact Expression of the FATHER

CHRIST is the Righteousness of GOD & the Fullness of GOD

 

[Angelina]

@Soyeong, I appreciate your emphasis that God’s character is eternal and that believers are called to holiness, righteousness, and obedience. I agree that the Holy Spirit does not lead believers into lawlessness, and I agree that the righteousness reflected in God's character does not change.

However, I believe we are conflating two things that Scripture distinguishes: God’s eternal moral character and the Mosaic covenant as a covenant administration.

The fact that God's righteousness is eternal does not mean that every covenant command given under Moses remains binding in the same way under the New Covenant. The sacrifices, priesthood, temple regulations, ceremonial laws, dietary distinctions, and covenant markers were not sinful or irrelevant; they were holy because they came from God. But holiness does not automatically mean permanent covenant obligation.

Hebrews makes this distinction clearly. It says: "By calling this covenant 'new,' he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear." Hebrews 8:13
The writer is not saying God's character became obsolete. He is saying the covenant established at Sinai reached its intended purpose and was surpassed by the covenant mediated by Christ.

Hebrews 7:12 also states: "For when there is a change of the priesthood, there must also be a change of the law."

The issue is whether the covenantal administration changed. The entire argument of Hebrews is that Christ's priesthood is superior because He fulfilled what the Levitical system pointed toward.

Regarding Jeremiah 31:33, the promise is that God would write his law upon the hearts of his people. But the question is, which law is being written? Hebrews 8 applies Jeremiah 31 directly to the New Covenant in Christ. The New Covenant does not simply place Gentile believers under Sinai internally; it brings God's will into His people through the Spirit.

Paul explains this distinction in Romans: "But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the letter." Romans 7:6

Paul is not saying the Law was evil. He says: "So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good." Romans 7:12

The problem was never that God's law was bad. The problem was that the written commandment could reveal sin but could not transform the heart. The Spirit accomplishes what the written code could not do.

Romans 8:3-4 says: "For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending His own Son... in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit."

Notice Paul does not say the believer achieves righteousness by returning to the Mosaic covenant. He says the righteous requirement of the law is fulfilled in those who walk by the Spirit.

This is why Jesus summarized the Law and the Prophets with love for God and love for neighbor. Love does not contradict God's commands; it reveals their true purpose. But the New Testament repeatedly teaches that believers are under the law of Christ rather than under the Sinai covenant.

Paul writes: "Carry each other's burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ." Galatians 6:2

And: "To those under the law I became as one under the law (though I myself am not under the law)... so as to win those under the law." 1 Corinthians 9:20

Paul himself says he is not under the law, yet he is not lawless. He says he is "under Christ's law."

Regarding Acts 15, the Jerusalem Council was specifically addressing whether Gentiles must become circumcised and enter into the Mosaic covenant. The apostles did not place Gentile believers under Torah observance as a covenant obligation. This was not rebellion against Moses; it was obedience to what God had revealed through Christ.

Peter says: "Why do you test God by putting on the neck of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear?" Acts 15:10

The issue was not whether God's commands were good. The issue was whether Gentiles had to enter the covenant given through Moses in order to belong to God's people.The apostles did not teach believers to disregard holiness. They taught believers to be transformed into Christ's image by the Spirit.

Jesus is indeed the perfect revelation of God's character. But He did not merely show us how to keep Sinai; He inaugurated the New Covenant through His blood. "This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is poured out for you." Luke 22:20

The question is therefore not whether we obey God. We absolutely do. The question is: are we obeying God through the covenant mediated by Moses, or through the better covenant mediated by Christ?

The New Testament answer is that Christ is the fulfillment, the mediator, and the head of the New Covenant. We do not abandon God's righteousness; we receive it through Christ and walk in it by the Spirit.

 

[David in NJ]

ALL who seek to live by the Law shall be Judged by the Law

GOD has Declared, none can be made righteous thru the Law

Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved.
For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God.
For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

If you love the Jewish people, share MESSIAH with them from Torah and the Prophets and the Psalms and the GOSPEL.

 

[Angelina]

If not following Torah is rebellion, what does Scripture say about those who follow Torah but reject the Messiah?

I appreciate the concern that believers should not use grace as an excuse for sin. Scripture is very clear that God's people are called to holiness and obedience. However, the New Testament presents the central issue as not simply whether someone follows commandments, but whether they have received the One whom the commandments and the prophets were pointing toward.

Paul addresses this very issue concerning Israel: "For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes." Romans 10:2-4

Paul was not accusing Israel of lacking devotion. He acknowledged their zeal. The problem was that zeal for God's law, apart from recognizing Christ, did not bring them into the righteousness that comes through faith.

If keeping Torah outwardly was the final measure of faithfulness, then Paul would not have written this. He himself had been a Pharisee, blameless according to the righteousness of the law: "concerning the righteousness which is in the law, blameless." Philippians 3:6

Yet after encountering Christ, Paul counted those things as loss because he desired "the righteousness which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith." Philippians 3:9

The issue was not that the law was evil. Paul repeatedly says it was holy, righteous, and good. The issue was that the Law pointed beyond itself to Christ. Jesus Himself said, "You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life." John 5:39-40

The Scriptures are not the problem. The problem is missing the One to whom they testify. This is why the New Testament does not define God's people merely by covenant markers but by faith in Christ.

"For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but a new creation." Galatians 6:15

The same principle applies in both directions. A person cannot claim righteousness simply because they possess Torah, nor can a person claim righteousness simply because they claim grace while living in rebellion against God.

The question Scripture asks is: Do we belong to Christ?

"If you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." Galatians 3:29

The goal of the Law was never to replace the Messiah. The Law prepared the way for Him. The greatest obedience is therefore not merely following commands written on stone but receiving the Son of God and having God's will written upon our hearts through His Spirit.

The danger is not only rejecting God's commands. The danger is also having God's commands while rejecting the One whom those commands reveal.

 

[Soyeong]

CHRIST fulfilled Torah for no man could, not even Moses, Samuel or Daniel

CHRIST is LORD of the Sabbath

CHRIST is King of kings and LORD of Lords

CHRIST is the Alpha and the Omega

CHRIST is the HOLY ONE

CHRIST is the Annointed ONE

CHRIST is the Radiance of God's Glory, the Perfect & Exact Expression of the FATHER

CHRIST is the Righteousness of GOD & the Fullness of GOD

According to Galatians 5:14, anyone who has loved their neighbor has fulfilled the entire law, so it refers to something that countless people have done and should continue to do in perpetuity, not to something unique that only Christ could do. The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact likeness of His character (Hebrews 1:3), which he embodied through his works by setting a perfect example for us to follow of how to fulfill the Torah.

 

[David in NJ]

According to Galatians 5:14, anyone who has loved their neighbor has fulfilled the entire law, so it refers to something that countless people have done and should continue to do in perpetuity, not to something unique that only Christ could do. The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact likeness of His character (Hebrews 1:3), which he embodied through his works by setting a perfect example for us to follow of how to fulfill the Torah.

To love your neighbor as yourself is to speak TRUTH to your neighbor.

CHRIST did not instruct us to follow the Law

CHRIST commands us to follow HIM = If you desire Eternal Life

Telling people to obey the Law will guarantee one's eternal demise.

"The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law.
But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ."

 

[Soyeong]

ALL who seek to live by the Law shall be Judged by the Law

It is far preferable to be judged by the Torah than to perish. In Romans 2:13-14, only the doers of the Torah will be justified and Gentiles will by nature be doers of the Torah.

GOD has Declared, none can be made righteous thru the Law

The issue of the way to become righteous is different than what describes the behavior of the righteous. The only way to become righteous is through faith apart from being required to have first done enough righteous works in order to earn it as the result, but what it means to be righteous is to be a doer of righteous works in obedience to the Torah (1 John 3:4-7, Isaiah 51:7). The Torah was never given as a way of becoming righteous even as the result of having perfect obedience (Romans 4:1-5), but rather it was given to describe the behavior of the righteous as it describes the behavior of Christ, so it is what we get to experience by being given the gift of righteousness through faith. Paul also affirmed in Romans 2:13 that only the doers of the law will be declared righteous, so there is a reason why our righteousness requires us to choose to be doers of it other than in order to earn it as the result, namely faith insofar as the faith by which we are declared righteous apart from works also upholds the Torah (Romans 3:28-31).

Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved.

Jesus saves us from our sin (Matthew 1:21) and it is by the Torah that we have knowledge of what sin is (Romans 3:20), so Jesus gracious teaching us to experience being a doer of it is intrinsically the way that he is giving us his gift of saving us from not being doers of it.

For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God.
For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way that he and Israel might know Him, and in Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so the goal of the Torah is to graciously teach us how to know God and Jesus by walking in His way, which is the narrow way to eternal life (John 17:3).

In Romans 9:30-10:4, they had a zeal for God, but it was not based on knowing Him, so they failed to attain righteousness because they misunderstood the goal of the Torah by pursuing it as through righteousness were earned as the result of their works in order to establish their own rather than pursuing the Torah as through righteousness were by faith in Christ, for knowing Christ is the goal of the Torah for righteousness for everyone who has faith. In Romans 10:5-16, Paul referred to Deuteronomy 30 as the word of faith that we proclaim in regard to the righteousness that is by faith proclaiming that the Torah is not too difficult for us to obey, proclaim that obedience to it brings life and a blessing, in regard to what we are committing to obey by confessing that Jesus is Lord, in regard to the way to believe that God raised Jesus form the dead for salvation, and in regard to the way to obey the Gospel. So nothing in this passage is speaking about the termination of the Torah, but just the opposite.

If you love the Jewish people, share MESSIAH with them from Torah and the Prophets and the Psalms and the GOSPEL.

In Matthew 4:15-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, and the Torah was how his audience knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so repenting from our disobedience to it is a central part of the Gospel. In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so the way to believe in the Gospel that Jesus spent his ministry teaching and accomplished through the cross is by repenting and becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Torah.

 

[Soyeong]

To love your neighbor as yourself is to speak TRUTH to your neighbor.

The Torah is truth (Psalm 119:!42)

CHRIST did not instruct us to follow the Law

Christ said that man shall not live by bread alone but by every word that comes from the mouth of God (Matthew 4:4) Christ also set a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to the Torah and we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22) and that those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way that he walked (1 John 2:6), so Christ taught us to follow the Torah by word and by example.

CHRIST commands us to follow HIM = If you desire Eternal Life

We can't follow Christ instead of following his example of obedience to the Torah. In Luke 10:25-28, Jesus said that the way to inherit eternal life is by obeying the greatest two commandments of the Torah.

Telling people to obey the Law will guarantee one's eternal demise.

Just the opposite is true. In Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them.

"The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law.
But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ."

In Romans 5-8, Paul described the Torah as being the good that he wanted to do in contrast with describing the law of sin as being something that was causing him not to do the good that he wanted to do. In Romans 7:7, the Torah is not sinful but how we know what sin is, however, a law that is the strength of sin is a law that is sinful, so 1 Corinthians 15:56 could not be referring to the Torah, but rather it is describing the role of the law of sin. In Romans 7:22, Paul said that he delighted in obeying the Torah, so it would be absurd to interpret 1 Corinthians 15:56 as referring to the Torah as if Paul delighted in the strength of sin.

 

[David in NJ]

It is far preferable to be judged by the Torah than to perish. In Romans 2:13-14, only the doers of the Torah will be justified and Gentiles will by nature be doers of the Torah.


The issue of the way to become righteous is different than what describes the behavior of the righteous. The only way to become righteous is through faith apart from being required to have first done enough righteous works in order to earn it as the result, but what it means to be righteous is to be a doer of righteous works in obedience to the Torah (1 John 3:4-7, Isaiah 51:7). The Torah was never given as a way of becoming righteous even as the result of having perfect obedience (Romans 4:1-5), but rather it was given to describe the behavior of the righteous as it describes the behavior of Christ, so it is what we get to experience by being given the gift of righteousness through faith. Paul also affirmed in Romans 2:13 that only the doers of the law will be declared righteous, so there is a reason why our righteousness requires us to choose to be doers of it other than in order to earn it as the result, namely faith insofar as the faith by which we are declared righteous apart from works also upholds the Torah (Romans 3:28-31).


Jesus saves us from our sin (Matthew 1:21) and it is by the Torah that we have knowledge of what sin is (Romans 3:20), so Jesus gracious teaching us to experience being a doer of it is intrinsically the way that he is giving us his gift of saving us from not being doers of it.


In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way that he and Israel might know Him, and in Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so the goal of the Torah is to graciously teach us how to know God and Jesus by walking in His way, which is the narrow way to eternal life (John 17:3).

In Romans 9:30-10:4, they had a zeal for God, but it was not based on knowing Him, so they failed to attain righteousness because they misunderstood the goal of the Torah by pursuing it as through righteousness were earned as the result of their works in order to establish their own rather than pursuing the Torah as through righteousness were by faith in Christ, for knowing Christ is the goal of the Torah for righteousness for everyone who has faith. In Romans 10:5-16, Paul referred to Deuteronomy 30 as the word of faith that we proclaim in regard to the righteousness that is by faith proclaiming that the Torah is not too difficult for us to obey, proclaim that obedience to it brings life and a blessing, in regard to what we are committing to obey by confessing that Jesus is Lord, in regard to the way to believe that God raised Jesus form the dead for salvation, and in regard to the way to obey the Gospel. So nothing in this passage is speaking about the termination of the Torah, but just the opposite.


In Matthew 4:15-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, and the Torah was how his audience knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so repenting from our disobedience to it is a central part of the Gospel. In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so the way to believe in the Gospel that Jesus spent his ministry teaching and accomplished through the cross is by repenting and becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Torah.

The law was a Tutor:
#1 - that declared to us God's righteousness for mankind as we waited for MESSIAH
#2 - The law revealed our inescapable nature to commit sin
#3 - And the inescapable REQUIREMENT for blood to atone for our sins
#4 - to reveal that animal blood sacrifice CANNOT wash away our sins
#5 - to reveal that FAITH in the WORD of GOD is what Pleases GOD above ritual service
#6 - to reveal the absolute NEED of a Savior
#7 - and that Savior is GOD

 

[David in NJ]

The Torah is truth (Psalm 119:!42)


Christ said that man shall not live by bread alone but by every word that comes from the mouth of God (Matthew 4:4) Christ also set a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to the Torah and we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22) and that those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way that he walked (1 John 2:6), so Christ taught us to follow the Torah by word and by example.


We can't follow Christ instead of following his example of obedience to the Torah. In Luke 10:25-28, Jesus said that the way to inherit eternal life is by obeying the greatest two commandments of the Torah.


Just the opposite is true. In Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them.


In Romans 5-8, Paul described the Torah as being the good that he wanted to do in contrast with describing the law of sin as being something that was causing him not to do the good that he wanted to do. In Romans 7:7, the Torah is not sinful but how we know what sin is, however, a law that is the strength of sin is a law that is sinful, so 1 Corinthians 15:56 could not be referring to the Torah, but rather it is describing the role of the law of sin. In Romans 7:22, Paul said that he delighted in obeying the Torah, so it would be absurd to interpret 1 Corinthians 15:56 as referring to the Torah as if Paul delighted in the strength of sin.

Of course the Torah is truth

JESUS is the Author of Torah

Torah Speaks and Directs us to JESUS

JESUS is the WAY the TRUTH the LIFE

understand???

 

[amigo de christo]

The law was a Tutor:
#1 - that declared to us God's righteousness for mankind as we waited for MESSIAH
#2 - The law revealed our inescapable nature to commit sin
#3 - And the inescapable REQUIREMENT for blood to atone for our sins
#4 - to reveal that animal blood sacrifice CANNOT wash away our sins
#5 - to reveal that FAITH in the WORD of GOD is what Pleases GOD above ritual service
#6 - to reveal the absolute NEED of a Savior
#7 - and that Savior is GOD

And that savoir IS GOD indeed my friend .
And now a word .
Abraham rejoiced to see my day , He saw it and was glad .
Ye are not even yet fifty years old and you have seen Abraham .....
BEFORE ABRAHAM WAS .................................I AM
and thus they went to pick up stones cause they knew what HE was saying .
But Lord what is your name , who do i say sent me .......
Tell them I AM has sent thee .
Father i have made manifest YOUR NAME unto the men .
Father GLORIFY YOUR NAME . I have both Glorified IT and SHALL GLORIFY IT AGAIN .
SOUND FAMILIAR . oh the sheep know david . They know . FOR JESUS has the sheep and His words they do not twist .

 

[amigo de christo]

Of course the Torah is truth

JESUS is the Author of Torah

Torah Speaks and Directs us to JESUS

JESUS is the WAY the TRUTH the LIFE

understand???

And by HIM were all things created that were created .
MY WORD shall not return Void .
The sheep knew david , and they still know today .
Though few they be my friend . The great rebellion of upmost apostacy has swollen now
and through the hirelings of a HARLOT many have sold a whores love .
But the sheep did not and do not heed the voice of a hireling , the voice of a s tranger .
They heed not the voice of a liar .
THEY heed this voice
FOR This cause came i into the world and for this cause was i born to testify of THE TRUTH .
ALL who are of the truth COME TO ME . THE WAY , THE TRUTH and THE LIFE .
And they know dav id , FOR JESUS HAS THE SHEEP , that NO LIE is of the TRUTH
and that EVERY WORD O GOD IS TRUTH .
MANY are called but few be chosen . For many have chosen the cry of a well favored harlot and her love
her LIE . but not the sheep david . For remember , THEY HEED ONLY THE TRUTH , FOR JESUS HAS HIS SHEEP .

 

[amigo de christo]

To love your neighbor as yourself is to speak TRUTH to your neighbor.

CHRIST did not instruct us to follow the Law

CHRIST commands us to follow HIM = If you desire Eternal Life

Telling people to obey the Law will guarantee one's eternal demise.

"The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law.
But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ."

Come , pick up your cross and FOLLOW ME .
HE who loves his life n this world shall lose it .
He who hears you hears ME and HE who hears ME , HEARS HE WHO SENT ME .
And no lie is of THE TRUTH .
WHO is a liar but he who DENIES that JESUS IS THE CHRIST
he is anti christ . but a whore has sold a harlots love and many now heed A LIE they beleive to be TRUTH and even of GOD .
ONLY , NO LIE IS OF THE TRUTH . GOD IS TRUTH , CHRIST IS TRUTH , THE SPIRIT is TRUTH , HIS words are TRUTH .
And the sheep HEED him david . His words are as honey to their taste and meat to their soul .
And they will not do as the many do , who merely use HIS name to twist HIS own words UNTO their own destruction .
FOR HIS WORDS are SPIRIT and THEY ARE LIFE and the sheep DO SURELY RECIEVE THEM .
Do be encouraged david . THIS IS A WAR for the souls of men and the hour is late and the delusion grows great .
And as JESUS has always had the sheep through all ages , HE is with us even now .
TO the trenches and line the walls . SOUND the trumpet and warn the peoples of the land
THAT JUDGMENT COMETH upon all who made and loved a lie . And they will NOT escape .
The time to repent is NOW . For many now head right to the lie and they will be damned by GOD and BY THE LAMB .
ALL JUDGMENT has been given un to HIM . AND HIS WORDS will BE THE JUDGE .
Not the popes words , not the Protestant kings words , not the presidents , not any mans ,
HIS WORDS WILL BE THE JUDGE on the last day . And unto all who twisted such words
Damnation awaits . And that is a fact . But unto all who do recieve HIM ..............ETERNAL LIFE .

 

[amigo de christo]

Of course the Torah is truth

JESUS is the Author of Torah

Torah Speaks and Directs us to JESUS

JESUS is the WAY the TRUTH the LIFE

understand???

rememeber when i said the same agenda has been pumped into both camps and into all realms .
OH it has david . IT has .
Many now believe , its not even necessary to POINT ONE to FAITH IN CHRIST
just point them to some truths , to the law , to etc .
ITS KNOWN as inclusivism , though it is taught in slightly differing ways as to fit each g roup it cometh unto and into .
MANY NOW BELEIVE A LIE david .
OH they do BELIEVE A LIE .
And they will USE a solid truth but use it to impart a lie .
In case anyone dont know who does that . WELL LOOK back at the garden
Look at who tempted JESUS too . ITS THAT ONE .
but here goes . The sepernt told them , HEY JESUS IS THE SAVOIR of the WORLD
and thus EVEN IF YE BLEIEVE NOT , HEY you gonna be just fine . HE implied that because JESUS
did pay the price of sins , IT MEANS EVERYONE IS OKAY whether they believe or dont beleive .
USING A TRUTH but implanting a lie .
KINDA LIKE THIS .........................SURELY YE SHALL NOT DIE , LIE . for ye shall simply become as gods to know good and evil , TRUE .
OH BUT HE IS A LIAR david .
And JUST LIKE GOD SAID , YE SHALL SURELY DIE , well death came upon all .
AND JUST LIKE JESUS SAID , IF YE BLEIEVE NOT that I AM HE ye shall DIE in yoursins , OH ITS GONNA HAPPEN DAVID .
CAUSE JESUS DONT LIE . now the devil does , buT NOT GOD . HIS WORDS are what the sheep believe .

 

[amigo de christo]

man it sure is obvious folks be following men . Not gonna bode well at all .

 

[Jack]

According to Deuteronomy 27-30, the way to be blessed is by relying on the Book of the Law while the way to be cursed is by not relying it, which is why everyone who relies on works of the law instead of the Book of the Law comes under that curse.

But you don't obey the Law. You have a HUGE problem come Judgment Day.

 

[amigo de christo]

But you don't obey the Law. You have a HUGE problem come Judgment Day.

verily verily i do say unto thee
I know what shoes sure sounds much better now and on the DAY of the LORD .
For there will be two groups .
Those who sought righteousness by their own means and had denied Christ .
Then those who sought righteousness BY FAITH IN CHRIST .
AND I darn sure know which one is the RIGHT ONE .
FAITH . Kinda scary to imagine standing before THE HOLY GOD
and trying to convince him of why YA DIDNT NEED JESUS and how by your own works YOU got the job done .
Absolutely TERRIFYING is such a thought .
AS for me . ITS JESUS . In HE alone is my righteousness and my salvation and eternal life .
Trusting in any thing else is TOTAL bad news . Cause no man can save himself .
LORD who then can be saved ... with men this is , notice he dont say possible , BuT IMPOSSIBLE
but NOT WITH GOD .
AND WHAT AND WHO exactly DID GOD pre determine . THAT JESUS CHRIST ALONE is the savoir
and that to be saved , oh ye must surely BELEIVE on HM .

 

[amigo de christo]

GOD is LOVE . but always remember any love that denies the dire need to believe on JESUS
and rather preaches a big ol road of unbelief be okay . IT AINT OF GOD at all .
THIS IS THE LOVE OF GOD . that we KEEP His commandments , NOT MAKE V OID and beleive on some budda or muhammed .
And what is the commandment . TO BELEIVE ON JESUS THE CHRIST , TO LOVE GOD ,
and to love thy neighbor as thyself . And to not beleive JESUS , to deny HIM , IS TO DENY GOD ALL MIGHTY
For had they LOVED GOD they had LOVED HIS CHRIST .
AS JESUS well said . HAD you LOVED GOD you would have LOVED ME .
AND HE WHO LOVES ME , HE KEEPS my commandments .
HE dont make them void for the love of a harlot . My advice , FAITH IN JESUS .
But mark my words , if one has faith in another jesus , THAT ONE cannot save ya . JESUS
is no minstir of any sin , so he dont hold rainbows , hundred dollah bills , and preach contrary TO THE VERY WORDS OF THE JESUS
IN THE BIBLE.

 

[amigo de christo]

Of course the Torah is truth

JESUS is the Author of Torah

Torah Speaks and Directs us to JESUS

JESUS is the WAY the TRUTH the LIFE

understand???

On those feet my friend . Remember the hour grows very late indeed .
And remember , for when they shall say peace n safety , SUDDEN destruction shall come upon them all .
And now a reminder . Why i sees me this huge intefaith gospel denying PEACE plan
and more and more following it believing it shall bring PEACE n safety to Israel and the World .
Only do remember , within that peace plan lies the LIE of all lies
And it has been sold as though it be love and of GOD , and it says to them all
Come ye mu slims , buddists , protestant and catholic , every religoin come ye one and all
FOR we all are beleiving in the same GOD , just coming to him in different ways .
SPOT THE LIE YET . THERE BE ONLY ONE WAY to GOD and it darn sure aint through false religoins
ITS IN JESUS THE CHIRST and YE DARN SURE must believe ON HIM .
This peace and this love cometh of another my friend . NAMELY this one , AND by PEACE shall HE destroy many .
And that one cannot save one single soul . It is of its father the devil and the work of its father it will surely do .
And it is a liar my friend , and the TRUTH is not IN IT .