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Christians Cast into "Hell" for Not Abiding?

Discussion in 'Bible Study Forum' started by Christ4Me, Jan 10, 2022.

  1. Christ4Me

    Christ4Me Active Member

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    A message can be lost in translating from the Greek into English.

    Examples are Matthew 5:21-22 & Matthew 5:29-30 & Matthew 18:8-9 where Matthew 5:22,29-30 & Matthew 18:9 has "hell" & "hell fire" derived from the Greek Word "geena" or Gehenna as it is better known as the valley of slaughter by the Lord.

    Jeremiah 7:32 Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that it shall no more be called Tophet, nor the valley of the son of Hinnom, but the valley of slaughter: for they shall bury in Tophet, till there be no place.


    Matthew 18:8 has the word everlasting fire derived from the Greek word "aionios" which Strong's Concordance defined as "from aiwn - aion 165; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well):--eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began)."

    I deem everlasting fire is what threw scholars off because Jesus was referring Gehenna to a place of slaughter on earth; not the actual hell or lake of fire. He was warning about a hell that was coming on earth that believers will find themselves cast into for not being found as abiding in Him when the Bridegroom comes.

    Jesus said this fiery destruction was coming on earth; Luke 17:26-30.

    The apostle John reported it as on a third of the earth; Revelation 8:7-13

    Peter warned about it too for why we are to endure in these latter days; 2 Peter 3:3-18

    That is why we are to pray for His help to not be ensnared by the cares of this life down here so we can escape that coming fire on the earth ( Luke 21:33-36 & Luke 12:40-49 )
     
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  2. Christ4Me

    Christ4Me Active Member

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    It is very possible that everlasting fire in Matthew 18:8 has brought about false teachings about believers losing salvation, for why they believe OSAS is not true.

    If you consider the fire that is sent on a third of the earth ( Revelation 8:7-13 ) where that place is the "valley of slaughter" hence Gehenna on earth ( Jeremiah 7:32 ), where the bodies of the saints are left unburied, Revelation 18:1-24, then Jesus is referring to Gehenna as that "hell" on earth.

    "Everlasting fire" would end after the great tribulation when Jesus makes a new heaven and a new earth where there will be no longer any sea; Revelation 21:1.

    There is a consequence for not abiding in Him, as in denied by Him for still being in iniquity for when He comes, but He still abides in carnal saints & former believers left behind. 2 Timothy 2:11-13 as they will be "damned" as vessels unto dishonor, wood & earth, but still in His House 2 Timothy 2:18-21


    This is why Jesus is warning believers to be ready or else, but nevertheless those who die left behind, their spirits are with the Lord. 2 Corinthians 5:7-11 & Revelation 2:18-25 & 1 Corinthians 3:10-17 They shall wait for their resurrection after the great tribulation; Revelation 6:9-11 Revelation 7:9-17
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2022
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  3. bbyrd009

    bbyrd009 Groper

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    not thrilled with the supposed future references here as in that case none of our progenitors would have needed to have any fear of their own Gehenna, but yay
     
  4. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    I'm not sure exactly what this post is about, but you have mixed up a lot of things. Of course Christians cannot be cast into Hell (Gehenna = the Lake of Fire) because their names are written in the Book of Life. And Christ was NOT speaking about the valley of Hinnom either. He was speaking about eternal Hell (the Lake of fire) which was created for the devil and his angels.
     
  5. Christ4Me

    Christ4Me Active Member

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    If Jesus used the reference of Gehenna which is a place on earth in the past, then why would anyone assume He also meant the afterlife when Gehenna was never used in scripture in regards to the afterlife?
     
  6. Hidden In Him

    Hidden In Him Well-Known Member

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    Not so, Christ4Me.

    The parallel teaching on Matthew 5:29-30 is found in Mark 9, where Jesus taught the following:
    __________

    42 “But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea. 43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched— 44 where

    ‘Their worm does not die
    And the fire is not quenched.’

    45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame, rather than having two feet, to be cast into [m]hell, [n]into the fire that shall never be quenched— 46 where

    ‘Their worm does not die
    And the fire is not quenched.’

    47 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire— 48 where

    Their worm does not die
    And the fire is not quenched.’

    ____________

    The highlighted phrase here is a quotation from Isaiah 66:24, where Isaiah presented the LORD (see Isaiah 66:23) as predicting something that would take place in the new earth (see Isaiah 66:22).

    Now, if both Jesus and Isaiah promised that their worm would not die and their fire would not be quenched, how then would that fit in with a narrative that it was merely Gehenna in the new earth? That would suggest that the dead bodies would never deteriorate, which would be strange in the real world now, but especially strange in the one to come, yes?
     
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  7. Hidden In Him

    Hidden In Him Well-Known Member

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    Good question.

    Gehenna was likened to the abode of the damned in the afterlife in Jewish and Christian eschatology precisely because bodies were burned there, just as they burn in Hell. It was a valley southwest of Jerusalem where children were burned as sacrifices to the Ammonite god Moloch. There was also a type of devil worship going on in association with Moloch worship, so the presence of demonic spirits partying and engaging in revelry runs a fitting parallel with Hell as well; torture, demons, evil revelry.

    But it is the imagery of human beings being burned in the flames to an evil god that lay behind that parallel, and where this parallel originated from in Jewish and Christian eschatology.
     
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  8. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    SHORT ANSWER: JESUS IS GOD. HE CREATED HELL.

    Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels (Mt 25:41) And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (Rev 25:10)
     
  9. Christ4Me

    Christ4Me Active Member

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    Some clarification is needed here. Gehenna is not in the new earth. Gehenna is what I believe will be the entire western hemisphere that is one third of the earth that gets burned up & the corpse will be left unburied; hence a larger version of Gehenna, the valley of slaughter, for why Jesus was using that reference as that hell on earth.

    What is the worm that will not die mentioned in Mark 9:48?

    "Mark 9:48 is a description: "where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched." This verse is found within a larger portrayal of the horrors of hell, which utilizes a place called Gehenna—the garbage dump of ancient Jerusalem—as an illustration. Gehenna was located on the south end of Jerusalem and had been a site for pagan child sacrifices during Old Testament times (2 Kings 23:10).During Jesus' lifetime, Gehenna had a constant fire burning to dispose of the waste that was left there—from regular household trash to the carcasses of animals and convicted criminals (Jeremiah 7:31–33). Because of this, the Jews considered Gehenna to be a cursed place full of filth." ~~ End of quote

    Although this site applies Gehenna to be about the afterlife also, there are some reasons for the severity of that valley of slaughter to be on earth.

    For the New Jerusalem in Heaven, the entire western hemisphere is Gehenna where Jesus dumped the disqualified, the reprobates, the vessels unto dishonor as in cut off, cast away, or left behind as if outside the City of God in Heaven. Revelation 8:7-13

    Even though Jesus says He will send this fire on the earth per verse 49 of Luke 12:40-49 & Peter describes the severity of this fire on the earth, note verses 10 & 12 in 2 Peter 3:3-18 , one may see how this fire is not going out.

    Revelation 18:1-24 is fallen Babylon in verse 24 has bodies of saints in it.

    The cause of this destruction? A meteor or an asteroid about the size of a mountain called Wormwood, will do this per Revelation 8:11 which is the reference regarding this fire that burns up a third of the earth in Revelation 8:7-13

    What is the full ramification of this fiery calamity in this huge valley of slaughter? Where the worm dies not and its fire will not quench. So there is a lot of waste there for why the fire is constantly burning and why there is plenty of bodies where the worms will not die for lack of.

    But it will end when the new heavens and the new earth comes. How much longer would it have gone on after the great tribulation, we will never know but in that present time of the great tribulation, it will be still burning and the worms still there, but that is how bad that destruction will be.

    Now for Isaiah 66:22-24; I would say that after the great tribulation when the Lord had defeated the world's armies marching against Jerusalem, even though there is a new heaven and a new earth with New Jerusalem that has come down to earth from Heaven, those who are resurrected after the great tribulation and the generations following from them, they shall see outside of that New Jerusalem what the Lord did in defending the old Jerusalem against the world's armies. The reference was for all "flesh" to see that and so this has to be the resurrected saints after the great tribulation with their generations following to see that. So the dead armies will be in that valley of slaughter to show what happens to those who transgress against the Lord. Since that Gehenna was kept burning outside Jerusalem in Jesus time on earth, so will it be for the New Jerusalem.

    So the worm & the fire can be still seen going on the new earth as waste and anyone that dares transgress against the Lord during His millennium reign, could be thrown in there for generations to see and fear the Lord when they come to worship Him in New Jerusalem.

    If one thinks about it, how can worms not burn in the lake of fire?
     
  10. Christ4Me

    Christ4Me Active Member

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    I believe the part about the worms not dying and the fire not being quenched is about a Gehenna on earth still.

    I cannot see worms in the lake of fire. Worms has to deal with corpses. Those in the lake of fire are eternal for why that fire is not going out.
     
  11. Christ4Me

    Christ4Me Active Member

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    But Gehenna comes into being by a place of slaughter on earth which the Lord will send a fire onto the earth in creating; Luke 12:49. He will do the same in defeating the world's armies marching against Jerusalem at the end of the great tribulation in creating that Gehenna also.



    Matthew 25:31-46 is how Jesus will judge the millennial saints for how they treated other saints during that small season when Satan will be released out of the pit after a thousand years to stage a last rebellion. Revelation 20:7-15

    He will be judging as King which will be at the Great White Throne Judgement as being in all Hs glory for having defeated Satan for the last time.




    I did note that there is no reference to the worms in Revelation 20:10-15
     
  12. Hidden In Him

    Hidden In Him Well-Known Member

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    Isaiah 66:22-24 seems to suggest that it is, however:

    22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith Jehovah, so shall your seed and your name remain. 23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith Jehovah. 24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the dead bodies of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
    I read your link:

    The "worm" that is described in Mark 9:48 is not a literal worm that never dies, but rather, it is a figurative description of a person's individual "worm" that never stops causing suffering and torment in hell. Notice that in this verse as well as Isaiah 66:24, the word "their" precedes the word "worm," indicating that there are individually assigned worms for each "host."

    There are Bible scholars who think that the "worm" could refer to a person's conscience, meaning that those who are separated from God in hell have the persistent worm of guilt keeping them in a constantly guilty state that cannot be relieved. We can't be certain of what exactly the worm refers to, but what we can be certain of is that there is no greater horror than the horror of hell. It is imperative for us to receive Jesus Christ as our Savior and make Him the Lord of our lives (John 3:16).


    Without trying to be argumentative, this isn't what the Spirit of God is teaching on the subject. Numerous visions of Heaven and Hell are being given in our time, and they consistently tell of those in Hell having literal worms crawling out of their flesh and bones. Here is one excerpt:

    A horrible odor filled the air. Jesus said to me, "In the left leg of Hell are many pits. This tunnel branches off into other parts of hell, but we will spend some time in the left leg first. These things you are about to see will always be with you. The world must know about the reality of Hell. Many sinners and even some of My people do not believe that Hell is real. You have been chosen by Me to reveal these truths to them. Everything I will show you about Hell and all the other things I will show you are true."

    As we walked, evil spirits fled from the presence of the Lord... I stood beside Jesus on the path and looked into one of the pits. Brimstone was embedded in the side of the pit and glowed red like hot coals of fire. In the center of the pit was a lost soul who had died and gone to Hell. Fire began at the bottom of the pit, swept upward and clothed the lost soul in flames. In a moment the fire would die down to embers, then with a rushing sound would sweep back over the tormented soul in the pit. I looked and saw that the lost soul in the pit was caged inside a skeleton form. "My Lord," I cried at the sight, "Can't you let them out?" How awful was the sight! I thought, this could be me. I said, "Lord, how sad it is to see and know that a living soul is in there." I heard a cry from the center of the first pit. I saw a soul in the form of a skeleton, crying, "Jesus, have mercy!"

    "O, Lord!" I said. It was the voice of a woman. I looked at her and wanted to pull her out of the fire. The sight of her broke my heart. The skeleton form of a woman with a dirty-grey mist inside was talking to Jesus. In shock, I listened to her. Decayed flesh hung by shreds from her bones, and, as it burned, it fell off into the bottom of the pit. Where her eyes had once been were now only empty sockets. She had no hair. The fire started at her feet in small flames and grew as it climbed up and over her body. The woman seemed to be constantly burning, even when the flames were only embers. From deep down inside her came cries and groans of despair, "Lord, Lord, I want out of here!" She kept reaching out to Jesus. I looked at Jesus, and there was great sorrow on His face. Jesus said to me, "My child, you are here with Me to let the world know that sin results in death, that Hell is real. I looked at the woman again, and worms were crawling out of the bones of her skeleton. They were not harmed by the fire. Jesus said, "She knows and feels those worms inside."

    "God, have mercy!" I cried as the fire reached its peak and the horrible burning started all over again. Great cries and deep sobs shook the form of this woman-soul. She was lost. There was no way out. "Jesus, why is she here?" I said in a small voice, for I was very scared.

    This is one example but there are many I could post. But what the Spirit is saying to the churches is that Hell is real, and that the flames are not quenched, and their worms do not die. They are "their worms" because they inhabit their bodies.


     
  13. Christ4Me

    Christ4Me Active Member

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    22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith Jehovah, so shall your seed and your name remain. 23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith Jehovah. 24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the dead bodies of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

    Now for Isaiah 66:22-24; I would say that after the great tribulation when the Lord had defeated the world's armies marching against Jerusalem, even though there is a new heaven and a new earth with New Jerusalem that has come down to earth from Heaven, those who are resurrected after the great tribulation and the generations following from them, they shall see outside of that New Jerusalem what the Lord did in defending the old Jerusalem against the world's armies. The reference was for all "flesh" to see that and so this has to be the resurrected saints after the great tribulation with their generations following to see that. So the dead armies will be in that valley of slaughter to show what happens to those who transgress against the Lord. Since that Gehenna was kept burning outside Jerusalem in Jesus time on earth, so will it be for the New Jerusalem. That is how that Gehenna outside new Jerusalem shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.




    Interesting, how you apply that to mean, but seeing how their worm is on their dead bodies, their worms will live, but their dead bodies are just dead. They are not in torment at all. Jesus is describing the valley of slaughter and what is happening to the dead in that place of slaughter.

    We should prove all things with Jesus Christ but as it is, Jesus said dead bodies; not living ones in torment. So the worms lives, but the dead bodies are still dead. There is no torment happening to the dead when they are dead.

    In the parable of the rich man and the beggar Lazarus, you may wonder why He left out the reference to the worm for that place of torment for the rich man. What reason would a worm be used for torment in the afterlife in hell or even the lake of fire? What did they do to deserve that torment? It seems to be sound discernment that any reference to hell as derived from Gehenna which is the actual word the Lord had used, is referring to the valley of slaughter on earth where worms do and can feed off of seemingly endless supply of dead bodies & waste.
     
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  14. Hidden In Him

    Hidden In Him Well-Known Member

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    The reference is to the Lake of Fire, which will be on earth.
    Those in Hell do not have eternal life, which in essence means that your youth is continually renewed. Not so with those in Hell. They continue to exist, but in a state of perpetual "death," i.e. dying. This why their worm never dies; they don't, but they exist in a state of perpetual death, as it were like a rotting corpse that continues to exist in that state forever.
    Same answer as above.
     
  15. Christ4Me

    Christ4Me Active Member

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    I disagree. After Satan is defeated for the last time, he and his angels will be cast into the lake of fire along with death & hell which that hell is a place that exists in the afterlife. Since that hell is being cast into the lake of fire, I have to say that lake of fire cannot be on earth.

    Why would scripture assign them as "dead bodies" from which the worms and the fire live on and not die? They are not written as dying or in torment, but dead.

    The rich man in hell is in torment, but dead bodies are not in Gehenna on earth.

    Those in after life hell are in torment and they will eventually be thrown in the lake of fire where their torment will never end there either.
     
  16. Aunty Jane

    Aunty Jane Well-Known Member

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    Yep, no one alive is in Gehenna. The maggots and the flames are pictorial of everlasting death, not everlasting torture.
    Why would God need to torture the dead? The highest penalty for any crime in Israel was death.....that's it.


    Good points. Couple that with Jesus' statement at Matthew 10:28....
    "And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in [gehenna]."

    This is a place where body and soul are "destroyed".....can it be plainer? There is no torture after death.
     
  17. Hidden In Him

    Hidden In Him Well-Known Member

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    It would be a long teaching to show it to you, which I couldn't get into atm, but maybe we can cover that some day. Very interesting study.
    24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the dead bodies of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

    Again, if you presume that their worm will die, and that their fire will be quenched, then this in effect explains away the verse. But if the word is true as stated, then no worm can stay alive forever if the body dies, decays and decomposes. The worm will of necessity die along with it if that's the case.
     
  18. Christ4Me

    Christ4Me Active Member

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    This is about Gehenna as a reference to a valley of slaughter on earth; not the after life.

    Jesus did give an account of the rich man & the beggar named Lazarus, as the rich man was being tortured in the afterlife "hell". Luke 16:19-31

    There is a lake of fire Revelation 20:10-15 Verse 10 has been written that those in it are in torment night & day for ever and ever.

    Thank you for sharing that verse because that kind of oppose how I have been applying all the scriptures to mean regarding Gehenna.

    The only discernment I can see is that this is about the one doing the killing. We can be killed but they cannot destroy our soul. God can destroy soul and body in Gehenna.

    Strong's concordance has soul derived from psuche which is different from pneuma for spirit.

    psuche is defined as "from yucw - psucho 5594; breath, i.e. (by implication) spirit, abstractly or concretely (the animal sentient principle only; thus distinguished on the one hand from pneuma - pneuma 4151, which is the rational and immortal soul; and on the other from zwh - zoe 2222, which is mere vitality, even of plants: these terms thus exactly correspond respectively to the Hebrew fagw - phago 5315, 7307 and chay 2416):--heart (+ -ily), life, mind, soul, + us, + you."

    When I consider that those unrepentant saints & former believers left behind, a damnation happens to that believer in how they are resurrected as vessels unto dishonor in His House as vessels of wood & earth. So there is a destruction of the soul, not the spirit, regarding the left behind saints.

    The vitality that they would have had as firstfruits of the resurrection would be gone.

    Luke 20:34 And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage: 35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: 36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

    That is why when they are resurrected after the great tribulation, they & the generations following have to eat from the tree of life in that City of God. So in a lot of ways, that is how their souls, as in their vitality was destroyed for why believers are not to fear those that kill us but God Who will deny us if we deny Him just to save our lives but wind up missing out on the firstfruits of the resurrection at the rapture event.

    Believers can still repent and confess Him before men and die if need be with His help, before the Bridegroom comes, but if not & they do get left behind & die, their spirits will be with the Lord, but after the great tribulation, they will not be as the firstfruits. 2 Corinthians 5:7-11

    Thank you for sharing Matthew 10:28 with me because it almost opposed what I was sharing about Gehenna, but the Lord helped me to see the truth in His words that "soul" is not the same as "spirit" in this case, but vitality, even the vitality of what they could have had if they were not still in denial of Him.
     
  19. Christ4Me

    Christ4Me Active Member

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    God be willing, we can do the study together as the Lord ministers in this iron sharpen iron ministry of His.

    I believe that the people during the 1000 year reign of Christ will see that Gehenna outside of New Jerusalem and those who transgress against the Lord during that reign, will be added to that Gehenna of the dead armies that were marching against Jerusalem at the end of the great tribulation.
     
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  20. Aunty Jane

    Aunty Jane Well-Known Member

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    Yes...exactly. Gehenna is not hades.....and hades is not the lake of fire...
    Learning what these words meant to his Jewish audience is key to our understanding of what they mean today.....especially since the Jews picked up the idea of an immortal soul from the pagan Greeks. Later Christianity did as well, making the whole teaching of the resurrection redundant. How can the resurrection of the dead take place if people aren't really dead?

    The ancient Jews had no belief in an afterlife at all. When OT Bible writers referred to death it was always with thoughts of the resurrection. They believed that the dead would be raised to life, back here on earth. As Jesus mentioned in John 5:28-29, he will call all the dead from the same place.....their tombs or graves. The reason that he can do that is because they are all still in them, peacefully 'sleeping'....they haven't gone anywhere. (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10; Ecclesiastes 3:19-20; John 11:11-14)

    This was a parable among many that Jesus gave...people like to single this one out as if its a true story....it isn't.
    The rich man represented the Pharisees and the beggar represented the "lost sheep of the house of Israel" whom Jesus came to rescue. Their deaths facilitated a change in the status of each. The Pharisees occupied the "bosom of Abraham" (a position of favor with God) and the beggar was treated as of no consequence to these ones; they had to survive by eating the crumbs falling from the rich man's table. Their deaths signified that they had swapped places. The rich man was now out of favor with God whilst the beggar enjoyed the attention that God was now giving to the 'lost ones'......the disciples of his son.
    The torment of the Pharisees after their loss of favor was experienced whilst they were very much alive. Jesus exposed these self-righteous ones for the hypocritical frauds that they were. (Matthew 23) They hated him enough to want him dead.

    Actually, if you read it again, it says.....
    "And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them; and they were judged, each one of them according to their deeds. 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire."

    Look carefully at the wording here....
    Death and hades gave up their dead...."hades" ("sheol" in Hebrew) is the common grave where all humans eventually end up, no matter what sort of death and burial they experience. (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10) These are judged after their resurrection, not before. And after death and hades are thrown in to the "lake of fire" what does John say this lake actually is? "The second death"...this is a death from which no one returns. Whatever goes into this 'lake', never comes out, they are destroyed forever.
    The "Lake of fire" is 'Gehenna'. Hades gives up its dead....gehenna never does.
     
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