Church Bashing

[Enoch111]

Many men in Protestantism also worship the idols of their fathers. Name ALL the idols.

That is a rather serious accusation. Exactly what are these "idols"? And can you provide a very specific example(s)?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

That is a rather serious accusation. Exactly what are these "idols"? And can you provide a very specific example(s)?

One idol. I’ll start with one. His name is False Doctrine. He has many children. One is named Eternal Torment.
The leaven men swallow about him is that human men will be cast into the lake of fire and then live eternally there instead of dying a second time there. Part of the story of that idol is that men are born having eternal life in them even though no man has eternal life in him unless He has Gods Spirit. So when God says the lake of fire is the second death (death, raised for judgement, second death in lake of fire), they believe there is no second death, but rather eternal life. Of torment. So to worship that idol, you believe there is no death, no doubly dead, no second death, but only eternal life.

 

[Enoch111]

One idol. I’ll start with one. His name is False Doctrine. He has many children. One is named Eternal Torment.

How can that be an "idol" and "false doctrine" when Christ Himself preached on eternal Hell and eternal torment? See Mark 9.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

First of all, hell and the lake of fire are two different places. Hell WILL eventually be thrown INTO the lake of fire, as scripture says. There IS a verse that speaks of eternal torment there, but note who it talks about: And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

but for humans, who are not born eternal beings : But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death."

 

[Desire Of All Nations]

How can that be an "idol" and "false doctrine" when Christ Himself preached on eternal Hell and eternal torment? See Mark 9.

Christ taught nothing of the sort. It only appears that way because that's how people who have been inoculated with the pagan doctrine of eternal torment choose to read it. Christ spoke of a fire that won't be quenched and mentioned absolutely nothing about someone experiencing eternal torment in this fire.

Jer. 7:20 and Jer. 17:27 shows God talking about the trees and Jerusalem in the Holy Land being burned by a fire that wouldn't be quenched. Are they still on fire today? Obviously not. As someone who was well versed in the scriptures, Jesus would've been familiar with Mal. 4:1-3 where it says the unrepentant people will be destroyed by the same fire Christ spoke of in Mar. 9 and that their ashes will be trampled on by the people who are in God's Kingdom.

It's ironic that Jhn 3:16 is simultaneously one of the most quoted scriptures and least understood scriptures in Orthodox Christianity because it proves their understanding about God's judgment is absolutely wrong. Jesus' own words in this passage further proves what is taught in Mal. 4:1-3 where He says "that whoever believes in Him should not perish". Notice that He clearly doesn't say "should not be tormented for eternity". A person who perishes is 100% dead, not existing in a different state somewhere else.

OK, I can see you don't know me. Yes I watch and attend Catholic Mass. But I don't pray to mary the saints or angels. And I think that is the point of this thread. That we don't have to believe all of what a church proposes to join them in worship. You seem to think otherwise and condemn people that do. The practicing of condemning I find very judgmental. Warning is one thing, but that is not what you do, you condemn people. You are repeatedly attacking my character and the Catholic church, stop!

"You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons; you cannot partake of the Lord's table and of the table of demons." - 1 Cor. 10:21

Guilty people never like hearing they are doing something wrong, but hear it they must. It's the only way they will ever grow and be freed from deception. You say Amigo is condemning people, but i saw no such thing being done. Amigo was simply warning you of where your decisions is going to take you. Lashing out at people for giving you the truth about the Catholic church only makes you look more guilty. Instead of making false accusations and deflecting, you should seek God's help and the truth.

While you believe it is loving to worship with deceived people, it doesn't make you right. God doesn't look kindly on false worship, no matter how good the intentions are. Jesus said God must be worshiped in spirit and truth, and there is no truth to be found in the way Catholics worship. Any knowledgeable person can tell you that most to all of their religious practices originated with the false religious system Nimrod started in Babylon. While people choose to remain ignorant about this in the Information Age, their choices will still have disastrous consequences.

 

[Lambano]

Sheesh, why the expectation that a church’s doctrine and praxis have to be perfect? Or rather, to match your own, which we know is perfect? These are institutions of Men. All I ask is that Christ be exalted, the scriptures be proclaimed, and the people love one another. If some of the praxis or doctrine seems foolish, just ignore it.

The Church of Lowered Expectations.

 

[Enoch111]

Christ taught nothing of the sort.

Since I already gave you the Scriptures (and there are many more), you are contradicting Christ. There is nothing more to be said.

 

[FHII]

Sheesh, why the expectation that a church’s doctrine and praxis have to be perfect? Or rather, to match your own, which we know is perfect? These are institutions of Men. All I ask is that Christ be exalted, the scriptures be proclaimed, and the people love one another. If some of the praxis or doctrine seems foolish, just ignore it.

The Church of Lowered Expectations.

Interesting point, Lambano, and I agree. I don't think any individual or Church would say they know it all or they have it all right.

Now, what a Church or individual does when they are found in error is another matter. While I have no problem with defending a doctrine to the end (thus not being a reed shaking in the wind), once you have exhausted your defense and are still in error, what do you do?

Those that accept correction when wrong are blessed. Being ignorant or wrong is not necessarily a sin, but refusing truth is.

 

[FHII]

Btw @FHII I think you're a nice person and I like you, and I am sorry for being snippy last night. That's on me.

Merry Christmas

Snippy isn't a problem with me. You did well! I didn't take it personally as we were discussing beliefs, not each others character. I respect that. I honestly just wasn't sure what you were getting at.

Ephesians 4:26 KJV
Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:

 

[Enoch111]

Being ignorant or wrong is not necessarily a sin, but refusing truth is.

And that seems to be a major problem. You can present the truth 100 times, and the errorist will reject it 100 times. But the Bible says that we are to reject the heretic after the first two times. Which means that people should not go on and on and on trying to correct those who are in error. In fact it is detrimental to be doing that.

 

[Lambano]

Interesting point, Lambano, and I agree. I don't think any individual or Church would say they know it all or they have it all right.

Now, what a Church or individual does when they are found in error is another matter. While I have no problem with defending a doctrine to the end (thus not being a reed shaking in the wind), once you have exhausted your defense and are still in error, what do you do?

Those that accept correction when wrong are blessed. Being ignorant or wrong is not necessarily a sin, but refusing truth is.

Depends on the doctrine. Some are essential to me; most I can agree to disagree. I don’t major in minors. It helps keep me sane. Some of the things you guys are willing to fight to the death for aren’t that important.

We are not saved by belief in doctrine; we are saved by Jesus Christ.

 

[FHII]

Depends on the doctrine. Some are essential to me; most I can agree to disagree. I don’t major in minors. It helps keep me sane. Some of the things you guys are willing to fight to the death for aren’t that important.

We are not saved by belief in doctrine; we are saved by Jesus Christ.

Well... I disagree with that. We are saved by Jesus Christ, but he said a little leaven....

 

[stunnedbygrace]

And that seems to be a major problem. You can present the truth 100 times, and the errorist will reject it 100 times. But the Bible says that we are to reject the heretic after the first two times. Which means that people should not go on and on and on trying to correct those who are in error. In fact it is detrimental to be doing that.

Interesting you should bring that up!
Dont answer a fool in his folly or you will be just like him.
Answer a fool in his folly or he will be wise in his own eyes.

Anyone have any thoughts on that?

 

[Taken]

Interesting you should bring that up!
Dont answer a fool in his folly or you will be just like him.
Answer a fool in his folly or he will be wise in his own eyes.

Anyone have any thoughts on that?

This format is an open forum.
People speak for themselves their own beliefs, some know why they believe what they do, other’s don’t. Some can state why they believe what they do, other’s can’t.
People can and do Agee or Disagree. Some people speak for others, what the other never claimed.
Some people go round in circles to deflect away from Why they believe what they do, because once in Print, it reveals for anyone to see, the basis for agreement or disagreement, and any other, new to particular church doctrines, steeped in particular church doctrines, to consider options of churches to attend and be taught.
Point being; An agreement or disagreement between two, can still stand, and the banter back and forth, for the basis of WHY they disagree, (is from my view) for the benefit of others to consider.
IOW - I do not defend my beliefs, nor try to convince another to agree with me, but rather let the banter continue until each reveals the SOURCE, of WHY they believe what they do, for the benefit of others to consider.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

Depends on the doctrine. Some are essential to me; most I can agree to disagree. I don’t major in minors. It helps keep me sane. Some of the things you guys are willing to fight to the death for aren’t that important.

We are not saved by belief in doctrine; we are saved by Jesus Christ.

ON POINT, agree bottom line, Christ Jesus IS Salvation.

However there are great Differences between Jesus’ Doctrine and man-made men’s doctrines, taught and preached in expressly particular different “identified” churches.

Thus, differences in what men accept, adhere to, and themselves teach and preach.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[JohnPaul]

I'll keep bashing the so called fake churches that hang rainbow flags on their buildings and have signs that say we're an all inclusive Church, for those are not churches but the house of Satan.

 

[JohnPaul]

have i become the enemy because i tell us the truth . So be it . I am not going down this false unity direction .
And out of love i will only increase warning against it and any false church , any false doctrine
Anything that is contrary to the one true GOD and the one true JESUS CHRIST .

You and I both brother, no acceptance and no love against things that are against God's law and word.

All that love and acceptance preaching without informing the individual he is sinning and trying to get him to see the wrong in his ways, is all that liberal hippy garbage going around now, we must bash it and at the same time try to save the ones we can by pointing out their wrong doings in hopes they understand and repent and abstain from their wrongful ways in the eyes of God.

 

[Lambano]

ON POINT, agree bottom line, Christ Jesus IS Salvation.

However there are great Differences between Jesus’ Doctrine and man-made men’s doctrines, taught and preached in expressly particular different “identified” churches.

Thus, differences in what men accept, adhere to, and themselves teach and preach.

Glory to God,
Taken

We all read Scripture though the lenses of human Reason, our own Experiences, and the understanding of faithful men and women who came before us, also known as Tradition. That’s not necessarily a bad thing; it’s just is what it is. In that sense, all doctrine is of Men. Some may claim direct revelation from the Spirit, but how do we test the spirits?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

This format is an open forum.
People speak for themselves their own beliefs, some know why they believe what they do, other’s don’t. Some can state why they believe what they do, other’s can’t.
People can and do Agee or Disagree. Some people speak for others, what the other never claimed.
Some people go round in circles to deflect away from Why they believe what they do, because once in Print, it reveals for anyone to see, the basis for agreement or disagreement, and any other, new to particular church doctrines, steeped in particular church doctrines, to consider options of churches to attend and be taught.
Point being; An agreement or disagreement between two, can still stand, and the banter back and forth, for the basis of WHY they disagree, (is from my view) for the benefit of others to consider.
IOW - I do not defend my beliefs, nor try to convince another to agree with me, but rather let the banter continue until each reveals the SOURCE, of WHY they believe what they do, for the benefit of others to consider.

Glory to God,
Taken

I was adding to enochs post, a thought I had about a verse. I wondered if anyone had any thoughts on the verse, which I think ties into his post.

your post was very well written, but…I don’t know what you were trying to say, or how it added to enochs post and then mine after. So I need more explanation how it ties in if you want me to understand you.

 

[Lambano]

I'll keep bashing the so called fake churches that hang rainbow flags on their buildings and have signs that say we're an all inclusive Church, for those are not churches but the house of Satan.

Brother, I ask in a spirit of kindness and gentleness: Is there a reason why the homosexuality issue is so important to you?

Why this sin of the flesh, when churches also welcome those with more spiritual sins?