Church Bashing

[stunnedbygrace]

So you are thinking that those in outer darkness nonetheless are in communion with God?

Much love!

I don’t know. I just know it doesn’t appear the outer darkness is the lake of fire or hell and IF
it’s forever, I can’t imagine how you would live forever there unless you’d been given eternal life. As I said, I’m hoping it’s temporary/being beaten with stripes/not getting out until you pay the last farthing.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Neither will I answer what the parable means.

Much love!

Yeah, we already knew that.

 

[marks]

With regard to the questionable interpretation of a single phrase by two different styles of expression,

Both terms in that phrase have a background of meaning within the Bible. To me that's evident. Daniel likewise prophesied of beasts, each being an empire. The "mark", or "engraving", only appears here in the Revelation, and one other place, Acts 17. Paul has toured Athens observing all their various idols. And he says God isn't like the gold or silver or stone they've graven with art and man's device.

The "graven" isn't the idol itself, its the markings put on the idol's exterior to give it it's identity. Without that it's just a lump of gold or whatever.

So Biblical usage gives me that interpretation. An engraving on one's hand or forehead, demanded by that beast, the empire. When you follow it through, the beast seems to be both the ruler and the empire.

Much love!

 

[marks]

I don’t know. I just know it doesn’t appear the outer darkness is the lake of fire or hell and IF
it’s forever, I can’t imagine how you would live forever there unless you’d been given eternal life. As I said, I’m hoping it’s temporary/being beaten with stripes/not getting out until you pay the last farthing.

If they have eternal life, then they are in a unifying relationship with God, enjoying communion with Him, I should think. Since that's how Jesus defines eternal life. That seems contradictory to me though.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Yeah, we already knew that.

The only way I know is to start on the right path, and that's what I'm trying to do.

Much love!

 

[marks]

perhaps that is what causes the constant calls for clarification,

Also, I often see how something said could be meant more than one way. I'll ask questions many times instead of making statements because I want to give someone the opportunity to see what I see without me demanding that of them, just trying to gently point in a direction.

Your words about what you have to do to meet my approval, this distresses me, because that is not at all the relationship I want with you. I love openness and sincerity, I like you as you. I'm a mixed bag! And I'm fairly certain, an acquired taste.

Much love!

 

[farouk]

Beware the hermeneutic of literalism. Darkness and Flame are images Jesus uses to convey Truth. I think I understand better what "darkness" means to you now, and I appreciate your transparency, this brief glimpse into your inner soul.

The Lost die in the Outer Darkness, alone and scared and blind and hungry and thirsty. It's still a horrible image - but it ends in final death.

I would have thought that in principle a literal interpretation is often to be favoured, unless there is strong, contextual reason to see something as a figure of speech, etc.

 

[BarneyFife]

I mean, the Bible does have different sorts of language used, right? Sometimes more literal, sometimes more metaphical? Or do you not agree?

And, by the way, why wouldn't I agree? Did I say anything that would indicate the contrary? :)

 

[BarneyFife]

I think we're better of not preferring one teaching over another because we like it better. I don't think that a very good determiner of truth.

But it does seem like something that even a converted person could be hopeful and grateful for, doesn't it? :)

 

[marks]

And, by the way, why wouldn't I agree? Did I say anything that would indicate the contrary? :)

With things being metafical? (I just saw that)

I mean, the Bible does have different sorts of language used, right? Sometimes more literal, sometimes more metaphical? Or do you not agree?

Only that you seemed to not like my literal mark and metaphorical beast, and said others didn't also.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Just curious because you are having a hard time rejoicing over what I am saying here. would you rather read from a book about the love of God the Father, Or would you rather experience that Love first hand?

Receive both, and let the Word keep you from deception. That a huge part of why He gave it too us.

Much love!

 

[BarneyFife]

With things being metafical? (I just saw that)





Only that you seemed to not like my literal mark and metaphorical beast, and said others didn't also.

Much love!

I'm afraid I'm just not up to all of the wordsmithing. And the rapid fire is, frankly, not my thing, either. If I was wrong to suggest that literal and figuritave shouldn't be employed within a single phrase: So sue me. lol

 

[marks]

But it does seem like something that even a converted person could be hopeful and grateful for, doesn't it? :)

My preference is for truth, and not a particular truth.

When I find myself thinking, say, I hope God really doesn't consign the unrighteous to everlasting torment, say, thinking of my little sister, I have to then answer myself, If I'm hoping for something that isn't true, that shows my understanding and reasoning to be fully flawed.

I want righteousness. And if it turns out that my idea of righteousness is Not God's idea of righteousness, then my idea doesn't matter much, and has set me on the wrong path.

It's like with OSAS. I merely want to know the truth, I don't have a stake either way. Because if I'm wrong, I'm the one who loses. Not that I'll lose my salvation necessarily, but I'll live in the wrong state of mind, vastly affecting my fruitfulness and subsequent glory in the kingdom.

Those who are Wise will shine like the brightness of the sky, and those who turn many to righteousness like the stars of heaven forever! Daniel 12. How many will we turn to righteousness if we are preaching teaching a false righteousness? The wrong path?

Much love!

 

[marks]

I'm afraid I'm just not up to all of the wordsmithing. And the rapid fire is, frankly, not my thing, either. If I was wrong to suggest that literal and figuritave shouldn't be employed within a single phrase: So sue me. lol

I sit here with time on my hands and much interest, sorry! I try not to overwhelm. I'll try more.

And concerning any possible court actions, I'm sure we can reach an amicable settlement! Here, have an ice cream,

Is that cool?

Much love!!

 

[Lambano]

I would have thought that in principle a literal interpretation is often to be favoured, unless there is strong, contextual reason to see something as a figure of speech, etc.

All three mentions of the Outer Darkness are in Jesus's Parables, which is a strong contextual reason to treat it like a figure of speech.

 

[marks]

Well, that’s the point, they aren’t entering into glory. They are going to the shame of outer darkness, what I think is the pay the last farthing place. We aren’t talking about unbelievers. We’re talking about believers. We’re talking about people given the down payment of the Spirit. People given eternal life. This is why the mercy of annihilation would not be the worst fate. If (If) outer darkness is forever, ITS the worst fate. That would make the worst fate be for those in the outer darkness rather than those annihilated as men teach. Which makes the warnings of utmost importance to US, not to unbelievers. You will be judged as you have judged starts looking much different.

Here’s the end of Romans 1: 32 They know God’s justice requires that those who do these things deserve to die, yet they do them anyway. Worse yet, they encourage others to do them, too.

And here’s the next thing in the book:

2 You may think you can condemn such people, but you are just as bad, and you have no excuse! When you say they are wicked and should be punished, you are condemning yourself, for you who judge others do these very same things. 2 And we know that God, in his justice, will punish anyone who does such things. 3 Since you judge others for doing these things, why do you think you can avoid God’s judgment when you do the same things? 4 Don’t you see how wonderfully kind, tolerant, and patient God is with you? Does this mean nothing to you? Can’t you see that his kindness is intended to turn you from your sin?

So you see that murder being anger in your heart matters very, very much.
And you see that not judging unbelievers matters very, very much.
You begin to see that your righteousness must exceed their righteousness matters very, very much.
That is the point where you begin to hunger for righteousness.

Paul's not talking about born again people in Romans 1 and 2. He's talking about Jews as under the Law, and Gentiles in their own knowledge of law. Neither is justified, because both do what they know to be wrong.

Much love!

 

[farouk]

All three mentions of the Outer Darkness are in Jesus's Parables, which is a strong contextual reason to treat it like a figure of speech.

I don't think we can just explain away hell, though...

 

[marks]

All three mentions of the Outer Darkness are in Jesus's Parables,

That's something I hadn't picked up on before, but it's a very good observation! Or that it may refer to something they knew about, making it part of the familiar story.

Much love!

 

[marks]

But it does seem like something that even a converted person could be hopeful and grateful for, doesn't it? :)

At the end of the day, I'm conflicted over eternal torment, I have the same objections everyone has. I find a part of me would like that people not suffer eternally. And I read passages that seem to say to me very clearly that some will. I find the thought horrifying, even as Jude wrote, some save with compassion, some with fear. But I don't attach that fear to the child of God, of whom there is no condemnation, for whom Jesus Christ ever lives to make intercession for us.

And what do is to capture those thoughts that seem to me to disagree with the Bible, which is given to keep us from error, as well as bring us salvation.

As hidden as the spiritual doctrines of truth are, the doctrines refuting error are easily found, and comprehensive. I've not found an error yet that doesn't have a straightforward refutation in the Bible.

But I capture those thoughts, and don't let them progress, and instead reflect on the Word, and if in any way I lack trust in God over the matter, I shelve it, and in this case, I simply know that God is righteous and true, and His ways are beyond mine, too wonderful for me, that is, inscrutable.

Much love!

 

[Lambano]

Various genres of language are used, just like we do. And when metaphors and symbols are used, not only does the Bible indicate that, but it also tells you what they mean.

I must disagree. Jesus very rarely explained His parables. The only exceptions are the Sower and the Seed, and the Wheat and the Tares parables.