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Church

Discussion in 'Christian Debate Forum' started by VictoryinJesus, Oct 26, 2017.

  1. bbyrd009

    bbyrd009 Groper

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    imo this is not fair because we perceive BoL at his worst, in a sense, in defense mode, obviously because he feels attacked. Now granted that is because he IDs the Church with the seen, the world, and also personally identifies with that construct, but imo we all do this in some way, and it is in judging that one is judged i think, not in the incorrectness or correctness of their doctrine; even though that has a place too.
     
  2. KBCid

    KBCid Well-Known Member

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    You should do your own homework first because I am part of no sect or cult.
    And yes the CC was a splinter from paganism long before any of its daughters splintered from her.
     
  3. kepha31

    kepha31 Well-Known Member

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    There was only one church when he wrote that, sometime before 107 AD. The Apostle John was still alive. The Greek for Catholic is Katholicos which was later Latinized into Catholicus.
    It means 'Universal', which in itself means, 'of or relating to, or affecting the entire world and ALL peoples therein'. It means, ALL encompassing, comprehensibly broad, general, and containing ALL that is necessary. In summation, it means ALL people in ALL places, having ALL that is necessary, and for ALL time.

    Matthew 28:19-20, "Go, therefore and make disciples of ALL nations...teaching them to observe ALL that I have commanded you; And behold, I am with you ALL days, even unto the consummation of the world." That is a statement of Universality, Katholicos, Catholicus, Catholic.

    .and you belong to that Church whose faith St. Paul describes as being "proclaimed (KATAnggeletai) in the whole universe (en HOLO to kosmo)” (Rom. 1:8)

    Thus the word KATAHOLOS or Catholic in English originated from Scriptures - Romans 1:8

    "So the church throughout all Judea and Galilee and Sama'ria had peace and was built up; and walking in the fear of the Lord and in the comfort of the Holy Spirit it was multiplied." [Acts 9:31 RSV]

    There the words "church throughout all" is translated from the Greek words "Ecclesia kata holis" But it was after Ignatius that the term Catholic Church became used more and more to designate the true church.

    Note: I am not saying the word "Catholic" comes directly from scripture, I am saying the term has it's origins in scripture.

    The first recorded use of the word is in St. Ignatius of Antioch's letter to the Smyrneans, paragraph 8, of 106 A.D
    "Where the Bishop appears, there let the people be, just as where Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church."
    Undoubtedly the word was in use before the time of this writing.

    Written records of the term "CATHOLIC" describing a character of the Christian Church:

    Ignatius, Letter to the Smyrneans 106 AD;
    Martyrdom of St. Polycarp 155 AD;
    Clement of Alexandria, Stromateis 202 AD;
    Cyprian, Unity of the Catholic Church 251 AD;
    Cyprian, Letter to Florentius, 254 AD

    "Christian is my name, and Catholic my surname. The one designates me, while the other makes me specific. Thus am I attested and set apart... When we are called Catholics it is by this appellation that our people are kept apart from any heretical name."
    Saint Pacian of Barcelona, Letter to Sympronian, 375 A.D.
     
  4. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

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    And you can't point to ONE erroneous doctrine taught by the Catholic Church.
     
  5. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

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    That is truly a laugh, coming from a person who followed the inventions of sinful, rebellious and prideful men in the 16th century in favor of what Christ established . . .
     
  6. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

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    If you are a non-Catholic Christian - then you are one of tens of thousands of disjointed and perpetually-splintering sects - ALL of which teach different doctrines while claiming to have the "Truth."

    At the Last Supper - Jesus prayed fervently for the Unity of His Church - that they all remain ONE as He and the Father are ONE. He didn't pray for the splintered, man made mess that is Protestantism . . .
     
  7. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

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    What book of Scripture did Thomas Jefferson, Alexander Hamilton and John Adams write??
    Just because their works aren't in the Bible doesn't mean that they didn't exist, Einstein.

    Ignatius's writings are historical works that support Scripture.
    Nobody is saying that they ARE Scripture . . .
     
  8. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

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    So, enlighten us.
    Which Christian Church preceded the Catholic Church??
     
  9. bbyrd009

    bbyrd009 Groper

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    this might be a good reflection of that:

    Matthew 13:44



    Jesus says that the treasure was hidden in the world. How were we, the church, hidden in the world? In the Parable of the Leaven, the word "hid" was used in a negative sense. Does "hid" have a similar negative connotation here in verse 44?

    In the context of this parable, the symbols are almost all positive. First, the man as Christ is positive, but then the world appears, which may not seem all that positive. Yet, next comes "joy" and Christ's self-sacrifice for the treasure. These positive things surround the word "hid." It seems that "hid" is a little more positive than its usage in verse 33. How then is the church hidden in the world? We need to remember that it is hidden in the world before its members' calling.

    Notice in verse 44 that the man finds the treasure hidden in the world, and once he finds it, he hides it again. Ephesians 2:1-7 speaks of the less positive of the two hidings:

    And you He made alive who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others. But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

    Where were we hidden before? In the field, which is the world. How were we hidden? We were hidden because we were just like everybody else. We were dead in trespasses and sin, and we conducted ourselves "according to the prince of the power of the air." We were hidden in plain sight because everybody else was just like us—but we have been found.

    Once Christ found us, what did He do? He hid us again. What does this mean? How does Christ hide us after He finds us? John 17:11, 14-18 provides an answer:

    Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are. . . . I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one. They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth. As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world.

    How did Christ hide us? By sending us right back into the world! He does not glorify us immediately or put us on a pedestal, but simply returns us into the world. The world hides us, but in a different way after our calling than before it. Though we are no longer of the world, we still look like it. We have not changed much except internally, spiritually. So we go back into the world and live our daily lives, and people fail to recognize us for what we are unless some matter of the truth comes up, as Jesus says in John 17:17: "Sanctify them by Your truth."

    In layman's terms this is, "Set them apart by Your truth." The truth we live by—God's truth in us—makes us different from everybody else. To look at us walking down the street, for the most part, we are hidden; we are average Joes. But if a matter of truth suddenly becomes important—say, an issue of the Sabbath comes up that puts us at odds with our boss or teacher—we immediate become different, set apart, separated from them. Of course, our lives should be showing that we are living by God's way all the time, but for the most part, we are hidden from this world's view by virtue of living among them...
    https://www.bibletools.org/index.cf...RTD/cgg/ID/3573/Church-Hidden-from-World-.htm
     
  10. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

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    Yup - and I'll go even further than that.
    The term "Catholic Church" is being used as a TITLE in the 2nd century.

    In the document, The Martyrdom of Polycarp, we read the following:
    “When finally he concluded his prayer, after remembering all who had at any time come his way – small folk and great folk, distinguished and undistinguished, and the whole Catholic Church throughout the world – the time for departure came.”

    IF this was a mere description, the literal translation would be rendered as: “… the throughout whole catholic church throughout the world.”

    This rendering of the words is gibberish in Greek OR English. This is clear evidence that the Church established by Jesus and the Apostles was indeed called the Catholic Church – as a title– at the beginning of the 2nd century and beyond.
     
  11. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

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    BAD commentary because Jesus ALSO said in the Gospel of Matthew:
    Matt.5:14

    “You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden.

    Still waiting for proof of a Christian Church that preceded the Catholic Church.
    Any takers??
     
  12. bbyrd009

    bbyrd009 Groper

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    ah, i guess court is adjourned then, lol
     
  13. ScottA

    ScottA Well-Known Member

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    You are very kind. Indeed, it is his great offensive defense that has brought him ridicule. If he showed ANY interest in putting down his hammer things would be entirely different. Me, I would let him get away with much abuse and error, but it is Christ in me who cuts to the marrow. But thanks - you are a peacemaker, which I too prefer to be - God bless!
     
  14. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

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    In other words - you can't identify a Christian Church that preceded the Catholic Church.
    In that case - you shouldn't go around making claims that you can . . .
     
  15. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

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    And again - I am always amused at when anti-Catholics become "offended" by educated Catholics who will not allow them to spew lies and fairy tales about Christ's Church. All of a sudden - it's the Catholic who is the "bad" guy for exposing your lies.

    What hypocrites.
     
  16. bbyrd009

    bbyrd009 Groper

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    near as i can tell, the two disciplines are apples and oranges
    hmm, don't recall ever doing so, but then imo this striving for a "Christian" church appellation would necessarily exclude any church that is not Christian as possibly teaching an acceptable path from the appellate's mind, yes?

    So on the one hand you want to violate or ignore Scripture that outlines Christian behavior, confession, forgiveness, etc, but on the other you want to exclude any other religion not deemed "Christian," other than Catholicism. Now, you hardly are required to make sense or even explain to me, for us to coexist; but i don't see how you even justify this to yourself?
     
  17. bbyrd009

    bbyrd009 Groper

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    ppl too stupid to know when to shut up is usually a comedy routine, not a forum tactic, BoD.
     
  18. ScottA

    ScottA Well-Known Member

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    I did not follow any man, but God.
     
  19. ScottA

    ScottA Well-Known Member

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    This catholic vs. anti-catholic hate war is yours. Obviously.

    I love catholics.
     
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  20. bbyrd009

    bbyrd009 Groper

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    don't we have passages about running, when no one is chasing? Something like that?
     
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