Church

[amadeus]

This isn't a matter of simply "refraining" from having an opinion. It is the absolute rejection of the belief in the Trinity.

Boy - are ALL Protestants taught to rationalize this much??

You really don't understand at all from where we are coming, do you? No need to answer that.

"Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths." Prov 3:5-6

 

[bbyrd009]

Yes, in this day the TV programs which today are so heavily dominated by zombies and blood suckers

lol, imo and those are the good progs. the really bad ones are the cop shows, and the lawyer shows, and the war shows, all portraying law as good.

 

[bbyrd009]

If it were only those who are clearly identified to all as unbelievers it would be bad, but too many bear the Christian label and fill the pews and sit on the platforms in the church meetings.

amen. stating that you are "saved" is a bad thing, imo. The height of chutzpah

 

[epostle1]

You really did not answer my question. Is it what you often have called dodging?

I answered your question. You assumed "apostolic" meant only the pope.
I said: "Or prove all things against Apostolic Teaching? What do think I mean by that?"
You said:

Apostolic teaching? With a history of one Pope [apostle?] rather than 12? What became of the other 11? Did the Catholic Church draw lots to appoint each new apostle as they did to replace Judas in Acts 1? When they lost the missing 11, why did they not replace them?

Your premise is false. Apostolic means all the apostles, not just one. Check a dictionary. It's not me that is dodging.
The Church is apostolic in three ways:

1. She is built on "the foundation of the Apostles," those witnesses chosen by Christ.
2. The Church hands on the teaching of the Apostles (the deposit of faith).
3. The Church is guided by the successors of the apostles, the bishops in union with the Pope. Jesus is "the eternal shepherd who never leaves his flock untended" (Preface of Apostles).

The Church is Apostolic
You seem to have a fixed idea of "apostolic" that is not biblical nor historical.

Impractical? Drawing straws or lots is simply letting everyone know that the decision belongs to God alone. Whether it is only two or a thousand, what is impractical for God?

God is not a magician, He doesn't work that way. He uses human beings to run a visible, hierarchical, infallible Church that can never be destroyed. Human beings are physical and visible and God grants authority to bishops to decide the election process, that you are forcing to be doctrinal when it isn't.

Jesus chose twelve but he had other disciples as we see when he sent out 70. The point of my question was why is the number twelve no longer significant as it was when Jesus chose that particular number of followers. It was no accident that he chose twelve any more than it was an accident that Jacob had twelve sons.

I didn't say anything about the number 12 being insignificant. Those succeeding the Apostles were not Apostles, they were bishops. More bishops were ordained as the Church grew because God gave the 12 a brain. I asked you if you wanted some of their names. No reply, because none of them were Protestant. It is IMPOSSIBLE to construct early church history by the Bible alone and so Protestantism is forced to write a history of it's own. That's why 1st, 2nd, and 3rd generation bishops are dismissed as "uninspired" which is an excuse.

 

[Helen]

lol, imo and those are the good progs. the really bad ones are the cop shows, and the lawyer shows, and the war shows, all portraying law as good.

Tut tut...play nice now.
The false preachers corrupt our souls and the souls of the genuine young seekers. Whereas the cop shows which I love...only steal our time and turn our brains to mush. For sure you not comparing "apples to apples"

( as for TV portraying the law as good...we should all know by now, that anything on the screen and internet are all fantasy and illusion...entertainment...= The art of not thinking!! lol )

 

[epostle1]

that statement is not true, not all apostle are of God, or sent by God. Revelation 2:2 "I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars"
Just because someone say that they are an apostle, do not make them an apostle of God. maybe that's the problem, following the wrong apostle .

Peace in Christ Jesus.

There were no "wrong apostles" except false claimants. Do you think the rest of the apostles were too stupid to know who the liars were?
Early church heretics include Arius, Nestorius, Apollinarius, Eutyches; all challenging the identity of Christ (and the Trinity) using "Bible alone" theology, as did every heretic in the history of the world.

 

[101G]

There were no "wrong apostles" except false claimants. Do you think the rest of the apostles were too stupid to know who the liars were?

it seems that way today.

 

[BreadOfLife]

@BreadOfLife Also...my faith is not "shaky"....because I know on whom I believe. My faith is in Him, not in what I believe ...or in what I don't believe.
If I 'abide in Him'...He has promised to lead me all the way home...

Yes, and if you abide in Him and trust in Him, you won't have any doubts about what you believe - and you will reject all that is wrong.

Anyway - I didn't mean to say that your faith was shaky. I said that if you are unsure about your beliefs, then it would be shaky.

 

[amadeus]

gotta agree there. I would have said that even an atheist could take the very worst translation of Scripture and determine the meaning of 7 in about five minutes now, esp with the online tools we have now...if only you hadn't made that "oxymoron" observation lol; now i have no idea what to..."believe." HA!

Take simply one step at the time, one decision at the time, and one day at the time. Consider the words of Isaiah:

"For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people." Isaiah 28:10-11

This may also help to understand the way of tongue talkers... LOL

While some may insist that we do, should we necessarily be able to state absolutely on a hypothetical basis what we would or should do for each and every situation which might be put before us?

 

[BreadOfLife]

Sorry I think I must have written that incorrectly. I do tend to do that! "I" understand what I mean, I just presume others do too.

I didn't think I needed to qualify in ref to the Cross or the finished work of Christ. I just presumed that we are here on this site because He is our rock and foundation. And it didn't need saying.

What I was saying ( obviously badly) That I believe what I believe..I am solid on what I believe, BUT, I am not going to be thick headed enough to resist the 'nudging of the Holy Spirit' if He try's to show me something in God Word, which I hold as my belief....but He wishes to show me something more, or slightly different than I first believe.
Is He not The Teacher? (John14)
How can He be the Teacher if we already know it all? ( or 'think' that we know it all)

I understand.
However, this whole argument about "rejecting" and "not believing" had to do with the very nature of God.

The Trinity is THE central core doctrine of the Christian faith. Without it - there is NO sacrifice for sin because the Christ is not the Son, nor is He God. To "not believe" in this core belief is to reject the nature of the Triune Godhead.

 

[BreadOfLife]

if your faith is tied up in your beliefs, certainly. An excellent primer on the diff in belief and faith imo. Thread #5 lol

If my faith is "tied up in my beliefs"??
That is a preposterous statement. Our faith has EVERYTHING to do with what we believe in.

What else would faith have to do with??
If you don't believe, then you can't be obedient because there is nobody to be obedient to.

 

[BreadOfLife]

ha well are all Catholics taught to be so cocksure? C'mon BoL, it is a central concept of maturing, that one go from a false literal "knowing" to a more mature understanding. Recognizing that i do not need to have an opinion on a matter was pretty hard, for me anyway

Rubbish.
Jesus puts this entire matter to rest:

Luke 10:16
Whoever listens to YOU listens to ME. Whoever rejects YOU rejects ME. And whoever rejects ME rejects the ONE who sent ME."

Not believing in Him is rejecting Him.

 

[BreadOfLife]

You really don't understand at all from where we are coming, do you? No need to answer that.

No, I understand perfectly - based on what you've written.
If you believe something else - then you haven't don a very good job of explaining yourself.

 

[101G]

The Trinity is THE central core doctrine of the Christian faith. Without it - there is NO sacrifice for sin because the Christ is not the Son, nor is He God. To "not believe" in this core belief is to reject the nature of the Triune Godhead.

the bible never says this, only men. my Faith is in the Lord Jesus, the only true God. this is the central core doctrine of the Christian faith. "BELIEVE the LORD JESUS". no other person(s). the bible is crystal clear that there is only one God who is ONE person. but with false doctrine covering eyes the truth is hard to see. but light will shine thru.

 

[amadeus]

lol, imo and those are the good progs. the really bad ones are the cop shows, and the lawyer shows, and the war shows, all portraying law as good.

All of them probably are working to brainwash us even if the originators of the programs do not realize what they are doing. This is not however something new.

Even the seeming innocent old B westerns and the early Walt Disney cartoons, were also working on our minds, forming them to a certain way of thinking, which were often quite opposed to God's Way.

When I began reading the Bible and praying seriously for God's will in 1976, there was a whole lot of clutter that was in the way. While much has been removed, there is still stuff that is in the way. Some of it I may recognize and some I almost certainly will not. This is why a sincere walk with God requires us to repeatedly surrender.

Remember the good witch in the Wizard of Oz [1939 movie] and the evil one?

Remember the TV show, "Bewitched"? [late 1960's to early 1970's]

But then how do those fit in with this?

"Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live." Exodus 22:18

This is part of the softening up, the preparing us for "better" [read worse] things yet to come in the society in which we live:

"Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!" Isaiah 5:20

Who knows the difference between what God calls good and what God calls evil today?

Even the Bible, especially the OT can lead us astray if we do not understand what is really happening and what God really thinks or His purpose in having some things written and preserved. Why did David take so many wives when he was called a man after God's own heart and the apple of His eye?

"And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,
And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?
Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder." Matt 19:4-6

Always there are already things in our hearts and make it difficult or even seemingly impossible for us to get past and move on closer to God...

 

[amadeus]

No, I understand perfectly - based on what you've written.
If you believe something else - then you haven't don a very good job of explaining yourself.

That is exactly what I mean!

"And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them." Matt 13:14-15

 

[101G]

All of them probably are working to brainwash us even if the originators of the programs do not realize what they are doing. This is not however something new.

Even the seeming innocent old B westerns and the early Walt Disney cartoons, were also working on our minds, forming them to a certain way of thinking, which were often quite opposed to God's Way.

When I began reading the Bible and praying seriously for God's will in 1976, there was a whole lot of clutter that was in the way. While much has been removed, there is still stuff that is in the way. Some of it I may recognize and some I almost certainly will not. This is why a sincere walk with God requires us to repeatedly surrender.

Remember the good witch in the Wizard of Oz [1939 movie] and the evil one?

Remember the TV show, "Bewitched"? [late 1960's to early 1970's]

But then how do those fit in with this?

"Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live." Exodus 22:18

This is part of the softening up, the preparing us for "better" [read worse] things yet to come in the society in which we live:

"Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!" Isaiah 5:20

Who knows the difference between what God calls good and what God calls evil today?

Even the Bible, especially the OT can lead us astray if we do not understand what is really happening and what God really thinks or His purpose in having some things written and preserved. Why did David take so many wives when he was called a man after God's own heart and the apple of His eye?

"And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,
And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?
Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder." Matt 19:4-6

Always there are already things in our hearts and make it difficult or even seemingly impossible for us to get past and move on closer to God...

Thanks for the post, I agree with you to a point about the old TV shows. some do condition our mind. but on the flip side. there was some that helped me understand the bible. example Bonanza, this show help me grasp the understanding of the difference between us and the angels in respect to sons vs servants. or like Gunsmoke that gave me insight on the woman Rehab. I do agree that there are bad and good tv shows, but we must allow the Holy Spirit discern them for us.

 

[BreadOfLife]

That is exactly what I mean!

"And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them." Matt 13:14-15

This verse has absolutely nothing to do with what we're talking about.
It's about the Jew's rejection of Jesus - not a self-proclaimed Christian's lack of faith and rejection of the Triune Godhead.

The written Word of God was NOT given to us so that we could individually decide for ourselves what was to be believed and what was to be rejected.
It was given to His Church to teach each generation until His return.

 

[epostle1]

it seems that way today.

We have a way of dealing with liars, it's called excommunication. How does your man made system deal with lying pastors? Oh, I forgot, you have no pastors. You have God on speed dial.

 

[BreadOfLife]

the bible never says this, only men. my Faith is in the Lord Jesus, the only true God. this is the central core doctrine of the Christian faith. "BELIEVE the LORD JESUS". no other person(s). the bible is crystal clear that there is only one God who is ONE person. but with false doctrine covering eyes the truth is hard to see. but light will shine thru.

Rubbish.

I've posted no less that 35 verses that prove the existence of the Triune Godhead - and nobody has been able to refute them.
I've challenged you and everybody else to produce just ONE Early Church Father who taught your heresy - and you have failed to produce even ONE.

In 2000 years years of Christianity, your perverse view of God and all similar heresies have been rejected and denounced.