Church

[101G]

So I take it that you cannot answer.... LOL. let me make it very clear again, the Spirit of God is God who is the Father, scripture, Matthew 10:19 & 20 "But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak. For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you". Spirit "OF" your Father? "of" translates the genitive case of nouns. and here the Noun, the Spirit is the Father who is God

see how easy it is to tell the truth. so you are dismissed. case closed.

 

[amadeus]

God doesn't lead people to error.
He can only lead a person to Truth. This is evident by the fact that you say that you "could be" wrong about some of your beliefs.

God does not take people out of the Light and into darkness.

No, God does not, but people do take themselves into darkness after having been in the Light. The Catholics do believe that or they would not have their sacraments of confession with penance following.

Believers do believe a mixed message. This is why John the Baptist said:

"He must increase, but I must decrease." John 3:30

And James wrote:

"Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be. " James 3:10

It ought not to be, but it actually is, isn't it? Even you have cursed people with the same mouth with which you have blessed people. Likely you have had to go to confession with regard to some of those curses.

 

[epostle1]

I presumed nothing. Where are the other 11? You indicated that apostles are bishops. So why aren't there 12? Someone changed the rules? OK then so when and why?
Why are there more than 12? It is a very simple question. You say that there are still apostles? I ask why are there more than 12?
I have no such idea. You are presuming I know your definition for apostolic. I do not. Why not simply provide your definition?

I already gave you a definition in post #524. I never said there was more than 12 apostles. There were no added apostles. Immediate successors are called bishops, not apostles. Linus succeeded Peter, Linus was not an apostle. He was a bishop. There is a list of immediate bishops who succeeded the Apostles. They never were deemed as apostles.

In the OT lots were used to divide the land for the tribes of Israel, yet you say God doesn't work that way. I am not forcing anything to be doctrinal. I am simply asking why and you have yet to give me an answer other than it was impractical and God is not a magician. Nothing is impractical for God and what may appear to be magical to unbelievers, is simply what God does. The resurrection of Jesus may seem magical to unbelievers, but you are not as I understand it an unbeliever or was I wrong?

We are talking about the election of bishops, not how land is divided nor the resurrection. The bottom line here is you can't accept that the Apostles had successors (who were bishops), so you re-write history or ignore it altogether. Claiming the Church was wrong for discontinuing drawing straws is a rabbit trail, as well as a denial of development.

Of what use would such names be to me or to anyone? That the church grew is not really the answer I was seeking. I could have figured that out myself in spite of your tendency to discount my understanding. What I was looking for was a reason why there are no longer a special 12 [even if more delegation was required because of growth]? cc If you don't know the answers then say so or say you don't want to continue the discussion. If you do then simply answer my question as best you can.

Why do you think Jesus picked 12 Apostles when He could do it all himself? "Jesus gave 12 thrones, one to each apostle. A throne is the same as a chair. A chair is an office. If it doesn't have successors, it' not an office. If it's not an office, it's not a chair either in terms of cathedra.
Every Bishop can trace his lineage to the Apostles. It's not always easy, but it can be done. The thrones or chairs of the Apostles didn't disappear. They are still with us in apostolic succession, which Protestants deny.

Acts 1:15-26 – the first thing Peter does after Jesus ascends into heaven is implement apostolic succession. Matthias is ordained with full apostolic authority. Only the Catholic Church can demonstrate an unbroken apostolic lineage to the apostles in union with Peter through the sacrament of ordination and thereby claim to teach with Christ’s own authority.

Acts 1:20 – a successor of Judas is chosen. The authority of his office (his “bishopric”) is respected notwithstanding his egregious sin. The necessity to have apostolic succession in order for the Church to survive was understood by all. God never said, “I’ll give you leaders with authority for about 400 years, but after the Bible is compiled, you are all on your own.”

Acts 6:6 – apostolic authority is transferred through the laying on of hands (ordination). This authority has transferred beyond the original twelve apostles as the Church has grown.

Acts 9:17-19 – even Paul, who was directly chosen by Christ, only becomes a minister after the laying on of hands by a bishop. This is a powerful proof-text for the necessity of sacramental ordination in order to be a legitimate successor of the apostles.

Acts 13:3 – apostolic authority is transferred through the laying on of hands (ordination). This authority must come from a Catholic bishop.

Acts 14:23 – the apostles and newly-ordained men appointed elders to have authority throughout the Church.

Acts 15:22-27 – preachers of the Word must be sent by the bishops in union with the Church. We must trace this authority to the apostles.

2 Cor. 1:21-22 – Paul writes that God has commissioned certain men and sealed them with the Holy Spirit as a guarantee.

Col 1:25 – Paul calls his position a divine “office.” An office has successors. It does not terminate at death. Or it’s not an office. See also Heb. 7:23 – an office continues with another successor after the previous office-holder’s death.

1 Tim. 3:1 – Paul uses the word “episcopoi” (bishop) which requires an office. Everyone understood that Paul’s use of episcopoi and office meant it would carry on after his death by those who would succeed him.

1 Tim. 4:14 – again, apostolic authority is transferred through the laying on of hands (ordination).

1 Tim. 5:22 – Paul urges Timothy to be careful in laying on the hands (ordaining others). The gift of authority is a reality and cannot be used indiscriminately.

2 Tim. 1:6 – Paul again reminds Timothy the unique gift of God that he received through the laying on of hands.

2 Tim. 4:1-6 – at end of Paul’s life, Paul charges Timothy with the office of his ministry . We must trace true apostolic lineage back to a Catholic bishop.

2 Tim. 2:2 – this verse shows God’s intention is to transfer authority to successors (here, Paul to Timothy to 3rd to 4th generation). It goes beyond the death of the apostles.

1 John 4:6 – whoever knows God listens to us (the bishops and the successors to the apostles). This is the way we discern truth and error (not just by reading the Bible and interpreting it for ourselves).

Exodus 18:25-26 – Moses appoints various heads over the people of God. We see a hierarchy, a transfer of authority and succession.

Exodus 40:15 – the physical anointing shows that God intended a perpetual priesthood with an identifiable unbroken succession.

Numbers 3:3 – the sons of Aaron were formally “anointed” priests in “ordination” to minister in the priests’ “office.”

Numbers 16:40 – shows God’s intention of unbroken succession within His kingdom on earth. Unless a priest was ordained by Aaron and his descendants, he had no authority.

Numbers 27:18-20 – shows God’s intention that, through the “laying on of hands,” one is commissioned and has authority.

Deut. 34:9 – Moses laid hands upon Joshua, and because of this, Joshua was obeyed as successor, full of the spirit of wisdom.

Sirach 45:15 – Moses ordains Aaron and anoints him with oil. There is a transfer of authority through formal ordination.

What would that matter so long before the Reformation? There have always been I believe since the time of Jesus sincere believers. Some of them probably belonged to the formal physical church. But what does that have to do with what happened change any existing hierarchy from 12 to 1?
You still have not really addressed my questions on that.

There was no change of existing hierarchy from 12 to 1. That's Protestant propaganda.
The Catholic Church's authority doesn't come from the Pope, it comes from Jesus Christ who founded the Church on Peter and the other Apostles. The Pope as successor to Peter, is the Supreme Pontiff, but it is the Pope who derives his authority from the Church, which is the Body of Christ. This may seem odd, because the Pope has authority over the entire Church, yet:

• 
  
  
  • the Pope can't just get up and contradict the Church's constant teaching.
  • He can't pull a doctrine out of thin air.
  • He can't reverse a matter of faith and morals that has been defined.

No one is trying to write a history. We would like you to address questions regarding the history which you say exists. Jesus was/is the Head. He had 12 apostles. Now the apostles have become bishops and there are more than 12. If the number of them was important, are there then still 12 important ones with perhaps new names, such as archbishops?

The Apostles didn't become bishops, they were always Apostles. They ordained bishops, they did not ordain new apostles. The Pope is a bishop, not an apostle. Archbishops and cardinals are bishops with a specific ecclesiastical functions.[/quote]

 

[bbyrd009]

Sure - lies and misconceptions come in many forms.

yet the discovery of the 5 forms of "belief" in Scripture takes less than 5 minutes.

This is not for you right now, ok, no offense. You are a Cradle Catholic, and to you "belief" must = Faith, and you would not see the other five definitions even if you found them in the Book wadr.

 

[101G]

People listen up there is only one Spirit. "the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you", the Spirit of our Father is none other that the Holy Ghost. not a separate person but the same person. and this Spirit is the Lord Jesus (whom is the Son). scripture, John 14:16-18 "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you". and he came, 1 John 3:23 "And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us”. and the Spirit is the FATHER.

this is the same person, who is the same Spirit, god almighty. how easy it it.

 

[amadeus]

I already gave you a definition in post #524. I never said there was more than 12 apostles. There were no added apostles. Immediate successors are called bishops, not apostles. Linus succeeded Peter, Linus was not an apostle. He was a bishop. There is a list of immediate bishops who succeeded the Apostles. They never were deemed as apostles.

OK, sorry as I did not realize that information on post #524 was your definition. I should have been paying closer attention, but you must admit that what you are describing is somewhat complex.

So then have there been no additional apostles who were definitely called apostles since the last of original ones named in scripture died?

 

[bbyrd009]

I don't judge anybody - just their fruits.

WRONG


lol, comedy gold bro, sry
we could poll it, if you doubt

 

[BreadOfLife]

lol, comedy gold bro, sry
we could poll it, if you doubt

I don't care what you do with it - just don't falsely accuse me.

 

[BreadOfLife]

No, God does not, but people do take themselves into darkness after having been in the Light. The Catholics do believe that or they would not have their sacraments of confession with penance following.

Believers do believe a mixed message. This is why John the Baptist said:

"He must increase, but I must decrease." John 3:30

And James wrote:

"Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be. " James 3:10

It ought not to be, but it actually is, isn't it? Even you have cursed people with the same mouth with which you have blessed people. Likely you have had to go to confession with regard to some of those curses.

I didn't say that people don't sin.
I said that God does not lead people into error. That's why HIS Church cannot teach error.

 

[BreadOfLife]

yet the discovery of the 5 forms of "belief" in Scripture takes less than 5 minutes.

This is not for you right now, ok, no offense. You are a Cradle Catholic, and to you "belief" must = Faith, and you would not see the other five definitions even if you found them in the Book wadr.

And that is yet another completely false statement of yours.
I never said that belief = faith. The Church doesn't teach that.

Belief is PART of faith, but faith requires our cooperation - our DOING (James 2:14-26).

 

[amadeus]

I didn't say that people don't sin.
I said that God does not lead people into error. That's why HIS Church cannot teach error.

God is not His Church. His Church is a people who are not all completely ready yet. When they are they will be perfectly subject to the Head [Jesus]. Jesus prayed for those who were His in John 17 and they will be one with Him and His Father, but some have not yet finished their course. This means that the work is not yet finished because it is still day. For Jesus it was finished on the cross. For you and I time remains between now and our finish.

 

[epostle1]

OK, sorry as I did not realize that information on post #524 was your definition. I should have been paying closer attention, but you must admit that what you are describing is somewhat complex.

So then have there been no additional apostles who were definitely called apostles since the last of original ones named in scripture died?

Yes. For example, the first 40 popes were killed by pagan Romans. Peter was the only Apostle on that list. After his death, his successors, who were bishops, held Peter's chair (a metaphor for seat of authority). Even though the pagan Romans killed so many, they could not kill the Chair of Peter. It's indestructible, not impervious.
All the apostles had successors, but of these only the bishop who held the Chair of Peter has universal jurisdiction, as well a bishop of the diocese of Rome, a dual function.

 

[epostle1]

God is not His Church. His Church is a people who are not all completely ready yet. When they are they will be perfectly subject to the Head [Jesus]. Jesus prayed for those who were His in John 17 and they will be one with Him and His Father, but some have not yet finished their course. This means that the work is not yet finished because it is still day. For Jesus it was finished on the cross. For you and I time remains between now and our finish.

I think you are confusing human frailty with doctrinal purity. We hold that the Church CANNOT teach error on matters of faith and morals. Never has and never will. Scripture is loaded with indications that it is IMPOSSIBLE for the Church to teach errors. That has nothing to do with sinful church members.

 

[amadeus]

Yes. For example, the first 40 popes were killed by pagan Romans. Peter was the only Apostle on that list. After his death, his successors, who were bishops, held Peter's chair (a metaphor for seat of authority). Even though the pagan Romans killed so many, they could not kill the Chair of Peter. It's indestructible, not impervious.
All the apostles had successors, but of these only the bishop who held the Chair of Peter has universal jurisdiction, as well a bishop of the diocese of Rome, a dual function.

Thank you for your kind reply!

 

[amadeus]

I think you are confusing human frailty with doctrinal purity. We hold that the Church CANNOT teach error on matters of faith and morals. Never has and never will. Scripture is loaded with indications that it is IMPOSSIBLE for the Church to teach errors. That has nothing to do with sinful church members.

In a way we are saying the same thing although when we get into the details, we both know that we will disagree.

I believe that the Word of God contains all that we need and that the Holy Spirit quickens the raw words within us if we allow the Holy Spirit to work.

 

[BreadOfLife]

God is not His Church. His Church is a people who are not all completely ready yet. When they are they will be perfectly subject to the Head [Jesus]. Jesus prayed for those who were His in John 17 and they will be one with Him and His Father, but some have not yet finished their course. This means that the work is not yet finished because it is still day. For Jesus it was finished on the cross. For you and I time remains between now and our finish.

In Acts 9:4-5, Jesus equates his Body – the Church - with his very self:

He fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, "Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting ME?" He said, "Who are you, sir?" The reply came, "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting.

Notice that Jesus DOESN’T say, “Why are you persecuting the Church?” (which is EXACTLY what Paul was doing).
Jesus chose to equate the Church with himself.

The Word of God refers to His Church as the FULLNESS of Him (Eph. 1:22-23).

 

[amadeus]

In Acts 9:4-5, Jesus equates his Body – the Church - with his very self:

He fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, "Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting ME?" He said, "Who are you, sir?" The reply came, "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting.

Notice that Jesus DOESN’T say, “Why are you persecuting the Church?” (which is EXACTLY what Paul was doing).
Jesus chose to equate the Church with himself.

The Word of God refers to His Church as the FULLNESS of Him (Eph. 1:22-23).

It may surprise you, but I do agree with what you have said here.

The Head is ready, but the Body is be being prepared.

 

[BreadOfLife]

It may surprise you, but I do agree with what you have said here.

The Head is ready, but the Body is be being prepared.

Actually - some of the Body is already complete.
Those who have left this world in Christ are already perfect because, as Rev. 21:23 tells us, NOTHING imperfect or impure can enter Heaven.

We need to be careful NOT to expel them from the Body of Christ.

 

[amadeus]

Actually - some of the Body is already complete.
Those who have left this world in Christ are already perfect because, as Rev. 21:23 tells us, NOTHING imperfect or impure can enter Heaven.

We need to be careful NOT to expel them from the Body of Christ.

Again it seems that we are in agreement although I hesitate to speak to definitely about the status quo of those who have already departed without first hand knowledge.

 

[101G]

The Apostles didn't become bishops, they were always Apostles. They ordained bishops, they did not ordain new apostles. The Pope is a bishop, not an apostle. Archbishops and cardinals are bishops with a specific ecclesiastical functions.

I have a question for you, do the apostle appoint another apostle?.