Church

[BreadOfLife]

no other interpretation is possible for you then? Is that what you are saying?

No because it is blindingly clear:
Jesus is the Vine.
WE are the branches.
SOME of us wither and die on the vine.

 

[BreadOfLife]

it is remarked that travel broadens the mind, and it seems to me that cloistering or being clannish is anathema to this concept.
you pretty much maintain that only Catholics will be saved, right.

Nope - that's NOT what the Church teaches - and we've had this discussion so don't act like we haven't.

The Church's position that those who are invincibly ignorant of the truth MAY be saved.
Here is the Church's official position on the matter - again:

Catechism of the Catholic Church:
"Outside the Church there is no salvation"

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336
847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337
848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338

John 9:41
Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but now you are saying, ‘We see,’ so

John 15:22
If I had not come and spoken to them, they would have no sin; but as it is they have no excuse for their sin.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Read the context.
Jesus wasn't talking about the meaning of the name "Peter".
If you choose foul tradition over scripture- I pity you.

Jesus was speaking to a man named "Simon" and changed it to "Kepha".
Kepha means Rock. Translated into Greek, he is called "Peter. Transliterated into Greek from Aramaic, he is called "Cephas", which is what Paul called him in his Epistles. You're fighting a losing linguistic battle here . . .

As for Scripture and tradition - we DON'T put tradition over Scripture.
As Paul tells us - Sacred Tradition it is ON PAR with Scripture:
2 Thess 2:15
"Stand firm and hold fast to the Traditions you were taught, WHETHER BY an oral statement - OR BY by a letter from us."

I pity YOU because you're ignorant of BOTH Scripture and Tradition . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

To: theQuestion
ANY time you want debate the Nazis and the Vatican - I would be MORE than happy to expose your ignorance on that topic in front of everybody.
Unfortunately for YOU - all f your "facts" come from a historically-bankrupt play called "The Deputy."

You're like the pharisees who condemned Jesus for speaking to prostitutes and tax collectors . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

Lord spare us! ANOTHER thread turned into a Catholic v Protestant debate.
Can we never remember that we have a common Enemy...and it is NOT each other!

Then, maybe you should tell your anti-Catholic buddies here to stop turning every thread into their Catholic-bashing pulpit . . .

 

[epostle1]

I am sorry but you are wrong.

Luke 9:54-55 KJV
[54] And when his disciples James and John saw this , they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did? [55] But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.

Jesus rebuked their flesh.

Luke 4:39-40
[39] And he stood over her, and rebuked the fever; and it left her: and immediately she arose and ministered unto them. [40] Now when the sun was setting, all they that had any sick with divers diseases brought them unto him; and he laid his hands on every one of them, and healed them.

Again Jesus(full of the Spirit) rebukes the flesh and the fever came out of her. It was Spiritual.

Romans 7:9-14 KJV
[9] For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. [10] And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. [11] For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me . [12] Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. [13] Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful. [14] For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Again, It is spiritual. The scribes and Pharisees bind heavy burdens of the law(spiritual) holding others captive, preventing others entrance into the Kingdom of God. They(Pharisees and scribes) don't enter because of their love for things that feed their wants of the flesh, their desire to have and to be high...and they keep others out of the Kingdom by placing heavy burdens upon them. It is spiritual; love of the temporal(adoration of men) preventing entrance. Any thing that exalts itself above the Lord, will be brought low. I am sorry, but that includes the Pope. When Paul says the Law slew him...it was Spiritual. Saul was for the physical church(institutional).
Paul; given a revelation of Jesus Christ...was afterward a servant for the spiritual church(the spiritual body of Christ). A virgin(free from the world)/no longer an adulteress but made white/clean/spotless...by Jesus Christ. The command from Jesus to Peter to "feed my sheep" ...we all, those of Christ, are called to feed His sheep. It is not about us and getting more of the temporal...it is about others and pulling them from the fire before it is too late. It is about forgiveness and it is absolutely SPIRITUAL.

Scripture says BOTH a physical AND a spiritual church. You are inventing another false dichotomy. I'll remind you what I said in post #127:

Please keep in mind, we do not deny that the Church is also a spiritual-invisible reality, nor do we assert that salvation is strictly predicated only of those who are formally part of the physical Church structure - although we confess such an arrangement to be normative. In emphasizing the physical-institutional aspect of the Church, we do not mean to deny the invisible. Rather, as Christ Himself was both God and man, divine and human, so the Church, too, is a kind of incarnation, divine and supernatural while also physical and institutional.Please keep in mind, we do not deny that the Church is also a spiritual-invisible reality, nor do we assert that salvation is strictly predicated only of those who are formally part of the physical Church structure - although we confess such an arrangement to be normative. In emphasizing the physical-institutional aspect of the Church, we do not mean to deny the invisible. Rather, as Christ Himself was both God and man, divine and human, so the Church, too, is a kind of incarnation, divine and supernatural while also physical and institutional.
If you don't understand how the Church can be BOTH physical-institutional AND spiritual, then how can you accept the Incarnation? Isn't the Church Christ on earth or are we all just some kind of bless-me-club?

Matthew 23:13-27 KJV
[13] But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves , neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in. [14] Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation. [15] Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves. [16] Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor! [17] Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold? [18] And, Whosoever shall swear by the altar, it is nothing; but whosoever sweareth by the gift that is upon it, he is guilty. [19] Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift? [20] Whoso therefore shall swear by the altar, sweareth by it, and by all things thereon. [21] And whoso shall swear by the temple, sweareth by it, and by him that dwelleth therein. [22] And he that shall swear by heaven, sweareth by the throne of God, and by him that sitteth thereon. [23] Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. [24] Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel. [25] Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess. [26] Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also. [27] Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.

It is not by the works of men.
It is by faith in Christ.
So no man can boast.
Jesus Christ loosed the new covenant.

Revelation 1:18 KJV
[18] I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

His Blood is the key to hell and death and He laid down His life freely. Why do you think it is "what ever you do in MY name"? There is your keys. They belong to Spirit.

What does any of this have to do with Matthew 16:19??? We are talking about binding and loosing, you're off in 20 different directions. Try to stay on topic.

"I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." [Mt. 16:19]

How did the Jews of the times understand the term "binding and loosing"?
"Whatsoever or whatever you bind on earth..." What does "whatsoever" mean?
How can something be purely spiritual if Jesus says "whatsoever you bind on EARTH...???
Can heaven bind an error?

Lets look at the verse again:

Matthew 18:19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.’

Who is "you" that Jesus is talking to??? Each individual believer? The context doesn't allow for such an interpretation. Obviously Jesus is talking directly to Peter. The Apostles received the keys later in Matthew 18:18, but as a collective while Peter received both the Keys and the power to bind and loose as an individual. This is a clear indication of Peter's primacy.

What happened to Moses' seat? Did it disappear?

 

[bbyrd009]

No because it is blindingly clear:
SOME of us wither and die on the vine.

ha, the irony lol

 

[bbyrd009]

yet i note that you seem to be bound here quite efficiently nonetheless? Surely you even detect this on some level? It'd be nice to have a discussion without you taking it personally, so i dunno how far this will go, but there it is.


oh, i guess you will have to ignore this because it counters your point, huh, forgot about that part. well dang lol, nevermind!

out of sight, of mind, eh

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Scripture says BOTH a physical AND a spiritual church. You are inventing another false dichotomy. I'll remind you what I said in post #127:

Please keep in mind, we do not deny that the Church is also a spiritual-invisible reality, nor do we assert that salvation is strictly predicated only of those who are formally part of the physical Church structure - although we confess such an arrangement to be normative. In emphasizing the physical-institutional aspect of the Church, we do not mean to deny the invisible. Rather, as Christ Himself was both God and man, divine and human, so the Church, too, is a kind of incarnation, divine and supernatural while also physical and institutional.Please keep in mind, we do not deny that the Church is also a spiritual-invisible reality, nor do we assert that salvation is strictly predicated only of those who are formally part of the physical Church structure - although we confess such an arrangement to be normative. In emphasizing the physical-institutional aspect of the Church, we do not mean to deny the invisible. Rather, as Christ Himself was both God and man, divine and human, so the Church, too, is a kind of incarnation, divine and supernatural while also physical and institutional.
If you don't understand how the Church can be BOTH physical-institutional AND spiritual, then how can you accept the Incarnation? Isn't the Church Christ on earth or are we all just some kind of bless-me-club?


What does any of this have to do with Matthew 16:19??? We are talking about binding and loosing, you're off in 20 different directions. Try to stay on topic.

"I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." [Mt. 16:19]

How did the Jews of the times understand the term "binding and loosing"?
"Whatsoever or whatever you bind on earth..." What does "whatsoever" mean?
How can something be purely spiritual if Jesus says "whatsoever you bind on EARTH...???
Can heaven bind an error?

Lets look at the verse again:

Matthew 18:19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.’

Who is "you" that Jesus is talking to??? Each individual believer? The context doesn't allow for such an interpretation. Obviously Jesus is talking directly to Peter. The Apostles received the keys later in Matthew 18:18, but as a collective while Peter received both the Keys and the power to bind and loose as an individual. This is a clear indication of Peter's primacy.

What happened to Moses' seat? Did it disappear?

You are the one that brought up the Pharisees bind heavy burdens yet do nothing to loose them.

"Rather, as Christ Himself was both God and man, divine and human, so the Church, too, is a kind of incarnation, divine and supernatural while also physical and institutional."

Yes, and while in the flesh Christ (God) overcome the world. "Institutional"

Ephesians 2:13-19 KJV
[13] But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. [14] For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us ; [15] Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; [16] And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: [17] And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. [18] For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. [19] Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

The Kingdom of God.
Jesus Christ the Head, and His body. Spiritual. Not in an institution. It is not of this world. This world is a harlot which those that remain "fond" or "friends" of commit adultery. Friendship with the world is enmity with God. Jesus overcome the world. HE gives the keys "what ever you ask in my name" through His blood...Jesus Christ's blood not Peters...to the body of Christ.

Matthew 18:3 KJV
[3] And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Luke 22:31-32 KJV
[31] And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: [32] But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.


"Converted"
"Born from above"
Spirit. Peter is an example of how God takes an ordinary man that is quick to speak and gives him the Spirit of Power...which is Christ. I am not attacking Peter. Peter has his place: under Christ. Same as every believer.

Describe the acts of the flesh.
Describe this world after this most recent shooting. God doesn't join himself to the world. You are wrong if you believe He adheres to the world. Again, Jesus Christ Has overcome the world.

On earth as it is in heaven:
IS not more of world in the earth.

It is a prayer for more heaven(spirit) on the earth. You believe it is an institution that fills the earth. It is His Kingdom that fills the earth. Spirit.

 

[BreadOfLife]

ha, the irony lol

Yes, the irony indeed . . .

 

[ScottA]

I am talking about the keys of the kingdom, you are talking about coming to the Father, WHICH HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE KEYS OF THE KINGDOM. THAT'S A TOTALLY DIFFERENT TOPIC. You constantly skip to different topics. You have no cohesive alternative explanation to the meaning of the keys, you left that part out, which is dishonest.
You have no case.

You are mistaken. "No one comes to the Father except through Me." "Entering in" is indeed the topic, and "the keys to the kingdom" is "the spirit of God" - which you have left out...by choosing a man instead of the spirit of God.

Jesus did tell Peter the power of the spirit of God to "loose" and "bind together", but "all power belongs to God", and without Him, "you can do nothing." But you took the other path of the flesh.

 

[ScottA]

the Peter story does provide us a template for becoming a priest; but it is occluded by the RCC, and can't really even be taught now, too bad. Perspective in the story makes all the difference

I for one, do not blame Peter. He learned his lesson with Christ. He knew the power of God and preached it well enough. But men have a way of seeking their own glory. After all Jesus' woes to the hypocrisies of the priests...you would have thought that the last thing the church fathers would do would be to get all gloried up. But...they did...and yes, the catholics own that.

 

[bbyrd009]

Not in an institution. It is not of this world. This world is a harlot

ya, he already knows all that. Just can't go there because he works for them, see. He has a New Improved definition of "institutional" now. Best of luck though.

 

[bbyrd009]

Jesus did tell Peter the power of the spirit of God to "loose" and "bind together", but "all power belongs to God", and without Him, "you can do nothing." But you took the other path of the flesh.

hey, why seek God outside the camp when you are on the side that is currently winning, right?

 

[bbyrd009]

I for one, do not blame Peter. He learned his lesson with Christ. He knew the power of God and preached it well enough. But men have a way of seeking their own glory. After all Jesus' woes to the hypocrisies of the priests...you would have thought that the last thing the church fathers would do would be to get all gloried up. But...they did...and yes, the catholics own that.

amen, i see the struggle that Peter resolved is the very same struggle that his proponents are the most blind to, at least sometimes; not that we don't all go through that same struggle at some point i guess.

 

[ScottA]

amen, i see the struggle that Peter resolved is the very same struggle that his proponents are the most blind to, at least sometimes; not that we don't all go through that same struggle at some point i guess.

I agree. What the catholics did was very human - which we are all guilty of in some way.

In fact...that is not what I would blame the catholics for at all. I simply blame them for being haughty about choosing the lesser choice.

That's called: hypocrisy.

 

[epostle1]

I agree. What the catholics did was very human - which we are all guilty of in some way.

In fact...that is not what I would blame the catholics for at all. I simply blame them for being haughty about choosing the lesser choice.

That's called: hypocrisy.

15 He said to them, ‘But who do you say that I am?’ 16 Simon Peter answered, ‘You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.’ 17 And Jesus answered him, ‘Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father in heaven. 18 And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.’

You just don't get it. Most Protestants (or non Protestants) don't get it either, because a purely invisible church can't bind or loose anything. That's why you are forced to change the meaning, or change the subject, or switch to unrelated verses.

These keys represent the spiritual authority and jurisdiction of the physical Church that is echoed in the Kingdom of Heaven.
spiritual/physical. both/and. not "either/or", which is false dichotomous thinking.

 

[epostle1]

It is a prayer for more heaven(spirit) on the earth. You believe it is an institution that fills the earth. It is His Kingdom that fills the earth. Spirit.

Why can't it be both? Why the false dichotomy? Do spirits feed, cloth, educate and provide medical care to more people than anybody else on the planet? Sorry, but this requires a physical earthly institution WITH Spirit. Drastically separating the two is more like Manichaenism, a dualistic heresy.

 

[epostle1]

You are mistaken. "No one comes to the Father except through Me." "Entering in" is indeed the topic, and "the keys to the kingdom" is "the spirit of God" - which you have left out...by choosing a man instead of the spirit of God.

Jesus did tell Peter the power of the spirit of God to "loose" and "bind together", but "all power belongs to God", and without Him, "you can do nothing." But you took the other path of the flesh.

Jesus took the path of the flesh when He gave Keys to Peter? There you go again, "...whatsoever you bind on earth" spiritualizing earth and everything else, obfuscating the words of Jesus with "spirit of God" as if that's supposed to make a point.

 

[epostle1]

I for one, do not blame Peter. He learned his lesson with Christ. He knew the power of God and preached it well enough. But men have a way of seeking their own glory. After all Jesus' woes to the hypocrisies of the priests...you would have thought that the last thing the church fathers would do would be to get all gloried up. But...they did...and yes, the catholics own that.

Why don't you make a list of the gloried up Church Fathers, or at least name two.