Cleansing Of Sin After Death

[EAHARA]

Hammerstone --

I hope you don't mind if I bring this up so that it can be answered with scripture. There was another thread on Purgatory, but no one really gave a Bible answer. Please delete this post or lock it if you do not wish it to be discussed.

The reason that Protestants do not believe in cleansing of sin after death comes from a peculiar doctrine which was made up during the Reformation. This doctrine had never existed in the Church prior to 1517. It is called "forensic justification" and the scripture references that are given for it are found in Romans 4.

The idea of "forensic justification" is based in the idea that man is "totally depraved" and therefore, can do no good at all, even as a believer. It comes from this verse, among others.

Rom. 4: 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness.

We see here that Abraham was a believer. He had faith in God. Yet in "forensic justification", it is said that Abraham was not righteous, so God gave to Abraham the righteousness of another to make up for his lack of righteousness. He was given preveniently the righteousness of Christ, since he (Abraham) did not have any of his own. This is the meaning that they give to the word "imputed".

It is then said of believers in this age that when be believe and "accept Jesus" (another concept not known to the Early Church), we are in similar manner "imputed" the righteousness of Christ so that God sees us as perfectly righteous. I have heard it described as "when God looks at you, all He sees is Jesus and His perfect righteousness."

Now, of course, if this is true, then indeed we have no need at all for any cleansing after death, since not only are we covered by Christ's perfect righteousness, but we are also legally declared innocent of any crime against God.

There is just one problem with this:

That is not what the meaning of the Greek conveys. Let's look a bit closer at the wording. All quotes I am about to give are from the PROTESTANT Blue Letter Bible Online -- KJV edition.

Rom 4:3 τί γὰρ ἡ γραφὴ λέγει Ἐπίστευσεν δὲ Ἀβραὰμ τῷ θεῷ καὶ ἐλογίσθη αὐτῷ εἰς δικαιοσύνην

The word in this verse which is translated "counted" is "logisomai" -- λογίζομαι.

1) to reckon, count, compute, calculate, count over a) to take into account, to make an account of

1) metaph. to pass to one's account, to impute

2) a thing is reckoned as or to be something, i.e. as availing for or equivalent to something, as having the like force and weight

B) to number among, reckon with

c) to reckon or account

2) to reckon inward, count up or weigh the reasons, to deliberate

3) by reckoning up all the reasons, to gather or infer

a) to consider, take into account, weigh, meditate on

B) to suppose, deem, judge

c) to determine, purpose, decide

This word deals with reality. If I reckon (logizomai) that my bank book has $25 in it, it has $25 in it. Otherwise I am deceiving myself. This word refers more to fact than supposition or opinion.

Note the part in red. This is very important. It states that the word means that we are dealing with REALITY. In other words, when God looked at Abraham, He saw a righteous man and counted it as such. God said to Himself "Abraham is a righteous man"

And why is that? Because faith is righteousness.

Rom 4: 13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, [was] not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

The righteousness of faith. In other words, to have faith is to be righteous. Therefore, when Abraham exercised faith, he was righteous because he had done righteousness. In the same understanding, i.e, that God deals with us just as we are, then if one sins, he loses righteousness.

John says the same thing:

1 John 3: 7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

If you do righteousness, you are righteous. It's really that simple. God deals with us as we are, and the goal of our life is not to be "hidden in Christ", but rather to have an ontological change which makes us like unto Him.

Therefore, since God deals with us as we are, if we die with unconfessed sin upon our soul, we must be cleansed of that sin. Forensic justification is not true because it does not reflect the meaning of the Greek word "logizomai", which is to count what is really there. When God looks at us, He "logizomai" us, that is, He regards us as we are and counts what we are -- either righteous because we have been doing righteousness, or unrighteous because we have been in sin.

**An interesting side note: As an Eastern Christian, we do not believe in Purgatory as a *place, but rather as a state of being cleansed. We do not speak of time in purgation, nor of a place. In the Eastern Church, we see the very presence of God as a cleansing fire, and by the fact that we are in His presence as believers, all that is not like Him (sin) is burned away as dross from gold. His presence is a fiery love which makes us clean and fit to love Him in purity.

 

[Rank Stranger]

I'm sorry, but I must disagree with major parts of this post. To say that there is a "need" for some kind of "place" or "state" where the soul can be further clensed of unconfessed sins is to say that Jesus did not complete God's work on the cross. If the shedding of that precious plood was sufficient to nail ALL of our sins to a rugged cross holding a sinless man/God, then what sins of what men were left unforgiven?

The truth is that no intermediate place of "cleansing" is needed because the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross permitted God to become propitious towards all men. He could then forgive sinners of their nefarious deeds without in any way compromising His own perfect holiness. Therefore, if a person believes in either Jesus as the Son of God or God as the Father of Jesus (1st John 2:23), and if that person repents of his sinful ways and attempts to emulate Jesus and His teachings, then that person is given the Holy Spirit and is reborn (born again) spiritually in Christ. In the vernacular, a spiritual account has been opened for him in heaven, and the perfect righteousness of Jesus Christ has been deposited in that account. When that person dies, he will go from (sinful) life to (sinless) life everlasting. He will not know death.

There is no further requirement of future forgiveness for sins committed after that belief has been attained. All sins of that person, past and future, have already been forgiven because of his belief in Jesus.

As a sidenote, that last statement is why a true Christian can never lose his salvation. God knows everything about everything (omniscience), and He knows which humans will falsely claim belief in Jesus but that will eventually return to their sinful ways. He will not give the free gift of the Holy Spirit (His Grace) to any such person. conversely, because of His omniscience, no true Christian will ever have the Holy Spirit taken from him for any reason. God is not an Indian giver. His promises are always true and trustable.

Rank Stranger

 

[Dad of 3]

"The reason that Protestants do not believe in cleansing of sin after death comes from a peculiar doctrine which was made up during the Reformation. This doctrine had never existed in the Church prior to 1517. It is called "forensic justification" and the scripture references that are given for it are found in Romans 4."

If this is the case, why was I taught about Purgatory in Catholic school in the late 1970s?

 

[Rank Stranger]

The most basic question of this particular discussion is this. Did Jesus' sacrificial death on the cross completely satisfy God so that He would forgive all sins of all believers for all time? The answer according to God, Jesus and God's Word in Scripture is yes, that single sacrifice was completely sufficient for the forgiveness of all sins.

But every person who wants to find and follow God must answer that question for themselves, and they will not all arrive at the same answer. That is very sad when you think about it.

Rank Stranger

 

[WhiteKnuckle]

People get too caught up in the definition of words. We look for the definition of a word and we see several meanings for the same word. Then we try to use it in a sentence. We get all confused with all this definition searching. The worse part is,,,, YOU KNOW EXACTLY WHAT THAT WORD MEANS!

Why do we do this? Are we searching for deeper understanding? Are we trying to find a way around the scripture, or make ourselves feel better? Answer: E: all of the above.

So, now, that we established why we look for definitions,,, let's establish why someone would want to believe in cleansing after death.............

Answer,,,, F: Same as the answers in the first question.

Now that we established that,,,,,, What does the bible say about death?

Answer,,,, "It's appointed unto man to die once, and after that the judgement"

Read it all, read every word, and you will find no definition, no obscure reference, no hidden meaning, no single verse that points to a time of cleansing after death.

As others have mention here,,, If there were another way to be cleansed Jesus would not have died on the cross! If all we had to do is float around in nothingness for a few thousand years and our sins would go away,, Jesus would not have sufffered his life here on earth for us!

And, the very thought of pergatory,,, and to make it a true thing,, is life with out Christ! Floating around in nothing, is life without Christ. How is that cleansing and purifying?

 

[Tombstone]

"Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,"
- Hebrews 9:27


Very little gray area.

 

[Benoni]

Wrong. What is death?
Phyical death?
Spiritual Death?
Second Death?

Is God's judgemet just or is He isjust?

"Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,"
- Hebrews 9:27


Very little gray area.

The reason we seek deeper meaning is the shallow meanings of the past are not just. They show us what man says about God, not what our spirit knows who God is. You all speak of a loving God. But your doctrines of damnation so the contrary.

People get too caught up in the definition of words. We look for the definition of a word and we see several meanings for the same word. Then we try to use it in a sentence. We get all confused with all this definition searching. The worse part is,,,, YOU KNOW EXACTLY WHAT THAT WORD MEANS!

Why do we do this? Are we searching for deeper understanding? Are we trying to find a way around the scripture, or make ourselves feel better? Answer: E: all of the above.

So, now, that we established why we look for definitions,,, let's establish why someone would want to believe in cleansing after death.............

Answer,,,, F: Same as the answers in the first question.

Now that we established that,,,,,, What does the bible say about death?

Answer,,,, "It's appointed unto man to die once, and after that the judgement"

Read it all, read every word, and you will find no definition, no obscure reference, no hidden meaning, no single verse that points to a time of cleansing after death.

As others have mention here,,, If there were another way to be cleansed Jesus would not have died on the cross! If all we had to do is float around in nothingness for a few thousand years and our sins would go away,, Jesus would not have sufffered his life here on earth for us!

And, the very thought of pergatory,,, and to make it a true thing,, is life with out Christ! Floating around in nothing, is life without Christ. How is that cleansing and purifying?

 

[TheUnworthyServant]

Pardon me for simplifying this but Jesus said in: John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

When Jesus says something, that's it.