CLEAR CHALLENGES TO THE TRINITY DOCTRINE (A)

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tigger 2

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CLEAR CHALLENGES TO THE TRINITY DOCTRINE (A)


(A)

Please carefully and thoroughly search to find a vision, dream, or clear description in scripture wherein God is shown as more than one person.

(This is really not that difficult. Either there is a vision, dream, description, etc. somewhere in scripture clearly showing the one God as three persons or there isn't. Either way, it should not be difficult to ascertain.)
 

lforrest

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I've merged these together into one topic as we don't need multiple anti-trinitarian topics.
 
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historyb

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I've merged these together into one topic as we don't need multiple anti-trinitarian topics.

Should this un orthodox idea be put in the Unothrodox doctrine forum. This stuff is not really Christian
 

lforrest

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Should this un orthodox idea be put in the Unothrodox doctrine forum. This stuff is not really Christian
I don't think a question can be considered unorthodox teaching.
 
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Joseph77

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Please carefully and thoroughly search to find a vision, dream, or clear description in scripture wherein God is shown as more than one person.
Yahweh, Almighty Eternal Creator,
is not a man (not a person), that He could lie.

CEB
God isn’t a man that he would lie, or a human being that he would change his mind. Has he ever spoken and not done it, or promised and not fulfilled it?

CJB
“God is not a human who lies or a mortal who changes his mind. When he says something, he will do it; when he makes a promise, he will fulfill it.

AMPC
God is not a man, that He should tell or act a lie, neither the son of man, that He should feel repentance or compunction [for what He has promised]. Has He said and shall He not do it? Or has He spoken and shall He not make it good?

Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, that He should lie, or a ...
biblehub.com/numbers/23-19.htm
God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent:

New International Version
God is not human, that he should lie, not a human being, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?

Contemporary English Version
God is no mere human! He doesn't tell lies or change his mind. God always keeps his promises.

Good News Translation
God is not like people, who lie; He is not a human who changes his mind. Whatever he promises, he does; He speaks, and it is done.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
God is not a man who lies, or a son of man who changes His mind. Does He speak and not act, or promise and not fulfill?

International Standard Version
God is not a human male— he doesn't lie, nor is he a human being— he never vacillates. Once he speaks up, he's going to act, isn't he? Once he makes a promise, he'll fulfill it, won't he?
 
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historyb

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I don't think a question can be considered unorthodox teaching.

It is a challenge not a question and really it should not be seen as a Christian doctrine, it would be better in a place for question of maybe things that are not Christian
 

tigger 2

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Renniks, thank you for a rational response.

1 John 5:7 (part 1)

To say that this is not a clear, undisputed verse is an understatement.

John did not write the words found at 1 Jn 5:7 in the KJV! And we must consider why trinitarian scholars and copyists felt compelled to add it to the Holy Scriptures.

The only other Bibles which include this passage that I am aware of are the Catholic Douay Version (A. D. 1609), the New Life Version (1993), the New King James Version (1982), and the King James II Version (1982). These last two are modern translations which have as their stated purpose the preservation of the text and traditions of the King James Version and which, therefore, translate from the thoroughly discredited Received Text.

Of these four Bibles the KJIIV at least indicates the unscriptural addition of 1 John 5:7 by writing it in all italics. And buried in the Preface is the admission that 1 Jn 5:7 (among others) is not to be accepted as true Scripture.

Since Greek was the “universal language” at the time the New Testament writers wrote, and for many years thereafter, the earliest copies of the manuscripts of the New Testament were most often written in Koine Greek. Therefore the very best manuscripts (and the oldest) of New Testament writings in existence today are the most ancient (4th and 5th century) Greek manuscripts. These early Greek manuscripts were later translated into various other languages, including Latin. Although Bible translators often compare these ancient Greek manuscripts with NT manuscripts of other languages, they nearly always translate from a text that was composed from the oldest and best Greek manuscripts.

Highly respected trinitarian scholar, minister (Trinity Church), Professor (University of Glasgow and Marburg University), author (The Daily Study Bible Series, etc.), and Bible translator Dr. William Barclay states the following about this passage:

Note on 1 John 5:7

“In the Authorized Version [KJV] there is a verse which we have altogether omitted [in Barclay’s own NT translation]. It reads, “For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word and the Holy Ghost; and these three are one.”

“The Revised Version omits this verse, and does not even mention it in the margin, and none of the newer translations includes it. It is quite certain that it does not belong to the original text.

“The facts are as follows. First, it does not occur in any Greek manuscript earlier than the 14th century. The great manuscripts belong to the 3rd and 4th centuries [most scholars date them to the 4th and 5th centuries], and it occurs in none of them. None of the great early fathers of the Church knew it. Jerome’s original version of the [Latin]Vulgate does not include it. The first person to quote it is a Spanish heretic called Priscillian who died in A. D. 385. Thereafter it crept gradually into the Latin texts of the New Testament although, as we have seen, it did not gain an entry to the Greek manuscripts.

“How then did it get into the text? Originally it must have been a scribal gloss or comment in the margin. Since it seemed to offer good scriptural evidence for the doctrine of the Trinity [and since there was no good scriptural evidence for this new doctrine introduced by the Roman church in 325 A. D.], through time it came to be accepted by theologians as part of the text, especially in those early days of scholarship before the great manuscripts were discovered. [More likely it was written in the margin of an existing manuscript with the intention that future trinitarian copyists actually add it to all new copies.]

“But how did it last, and how did it come to be in the Authorized [King James] Version? The first Greek testament to be published was that of Erasmus in 1516. Erasmus was a great scholar and, knowing that this verse was not in the original text, he did not include it in his first edition. By this time, however, theologians [trinitarians, of course] were using the verse. It had, for instance, been printed in the Latin Vulgate of 1514. Erasmus was therefore criticized for omitting it. His answer was that if anyone could show him a Greek manuscript which had the words in it, he would print them in his next edition. Someone did produce a very late and very bad text in which the verse did occur in Greek; and Erasmus, true to his word but very much against his judgment and his will, printed the verse in his 1522 edition.

“The next step was that in 1550 Stephanus printed his great edition of the Greek New Testament. This 1550 edition of Stephanus was called - he gave it that name himself - The Received Text, and it was the basis of the Authorized Version [KJV] and of the Greek text for centuries to come. That is how this verse got into the Authorized Version. There is, of course, nothing wrong with it [if the trinity were really true as trinitarians like Barclay himself want!]; but modern scholarship has made it quite certain that John did not write it and that it is a much later commentary on, and addition to, his words; and that is why all modern translations omit it.” - pp. 110-111, The Letters of John and Jude, The Daily Study Bible Series, Revised Edition, The Westminster Press, 1976. [Material in brackets and emphasis added by me.]
 

tigger 2

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1 John 5:7 (part 2)


Noted Trinitarian scholar Daniel B. Wallace admits the same:

https://bible.org/article/textual-problem-1-john-57-8#_ftnref3

And respected (and highly trinitarian) New Testament Bible scholar Dr. A. T. Robertson writes:

“For there are three who bear witness (hoti treis eisin hoi marturountes). At this point the Latin Vulgate gives the words in the Textus Receptus [Received Text], found in no Greek MS. [Manuscript] save two late cursives (162 in the Vatican Library of the fifteenth century, 34 of the sixteenth century in Trinity College, Dublin). Jerome [famed trinitarian, 342-420 A. D.] did not have it. Cyprian applies the language of the Trinity [ ? - - see UBS Commentary below] and Priscillian [excommunicated 380 A. D., executed 385 A. D.] has it. Erasmus did not have it in his first edition, but rashly offered to insert it if a single Greek MS. had it and [ms.] 34 was produced with the insertion, as if made to order. The spurious addition is: en toi ouranoi ho pater, ho logos kai to hagion pneuma kai houtoi hoi treis hen eisin kai treis eisin hoi marturountes en tei gei (in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost; and the three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth). The last clause belongs to verse 8. The fact and the doctrine of the Trinity do not depend on this spurious addition.” - p. 240, Vol. VI, Word Pictures in the New Testament, Broadman Press, 1960.

The highly respected (and trinitarian) United Bible Societies has published a commentary on the New Testament text. It discusses 1 John 5:5-7 as follows:

“After μαρτυροῦντες [“bearing witness”] the Textus Receptus [Received Text] adds the following: εν τῷ οὐρανῷ, ὁ πατήρ, ὁ λόγος, καὶ τὸ Ἅγιον Πνεῦμα. καὶ οὗτοι οἱ τρεῖς ἐν εἰσι. (8) καὶ τρεῖς εἰσιν οἱ μαρτυροῦντες εν τῇ γῆ. That these words are spurious and have no right to stand in the New Testament is certain in the light of the following considerations.

“(A) EXTERNAL EVIDENCE. (1) The passage is absent from every known Greek manuscript except four, and these contain the passage in what appears to be a translation from a late recension of the Latin Vulgate. These four manuscripts are ms. 61 [this is ms. 34 in the earlier numbering system used by Robertson above], a sixteenth century manuscript formerly at Oxford, now at Dublin; ms. 88, a twelfth century manuscript at Naples, which has the passage written in the margin by a modern hand; ms. 629 [ms. 162, Robertson], a fourteenth or fifteenth century manuscript in the Vatican; and ms. 635, an eleventh century manuscript which has the passage written in the margin by a seventeenth century hand.

“(2) The passage is quoted by none of the Greek Fathers, who, had they known it, would most certainly have employed it in the Trinitarian controversies (Sabellian and Arian [certainly at the Nicene Council of 325]). Its first appearance in Greek is in a Greek version of the (Latin) Acts of the Lateran Council in 1215.

“(3) The passage is absent from the manuscripts of all ancient versions (Syriac, Coptic, Armenian, Ethiopic, Arabic, Slavonic), except the Latin; and it is not found (a) in the Old Latin in its early form (Tertullian Cyprian Augustine), or in the Vulgate (b) as issued by Jerome (codex Fuldensis [copied A. D. 541-46] and codex Amiatinus [copied before A. D. 716]) or (c) as revised by Alcuin (first hand of codex Vercellensis [ninth century]).

“The earliest instance of the passage is in a fourth century Latin treatise entitled Liber Apologeticus (chap. 4), attributed either to the Spanish heretic Priscillian (died about 385) or to his follower Bishop Instantius. ....

“(B) INTERNAL PROBABILITIES. (1) As regards transcriptional probability, if the passage were original, no good reason can be found to account for its omission, either accidentally or intentionally, by copyists of hundreds of Greek manuscripts, and by translators of ancient versions.

“(2) As regards intrinsic probability, the passage makes an awkward break in the sense.” - pp. 716-718, A Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament, United Bible Societies, 1971.

Notice the comments concerning this disputed passage found in the respected trinitarian reference work, The Expositor's Greek Testament:

It says in a note for 1 John 5:7 (as found in the Received Text and the KJV): 

"A Latin interpolation, certainly spurious.  (I) Found in no Gk. MS. [Greek Manuscript] except two late minuscules - 162 (Vatican), 15th c., the Lat. Vg. [Latin Vulgate] Version with a Gk. text adapted thereto; 34 (Trin. Coll., Dublin), 16th c.  (2) Quoted by none of the Gk Fathers.  Had they known it, they would have employed it in the Trinitarian controversies (Sabellian and Arian [325 A.D.]).  (3) Found in none of the early versions - in Vg. but not as it [originally] left the hands of St. Jerome." - p. 195, Vol. 5, Eerdmans Publishing Co.

The trinitarian authors of So Many Versions? (who were very biased in favor of trinitarian interpretations in other parts of their book) were so upset by this modern Bible’s use of clearly spurious passages such as this that they continued:

“The brochure advertising this revision [the NKJV] gives as the purpose of the project “to preserve and improve the purity of the King James Version.” To improve the purity would surely include the removal from the text of any scribal additions that were not a part of the autographs [original writing]. No devout reader of the Bible wants any portion of the sacred text as penned by the original authors removed. But neither should he want later additions, in which some passages have crept into the text, published as part of the Word of God.” - p. 294, So Many Versions?, Zondervan Publ., 1983 ed.

I see that my trinitarian-edited and published King James Version, Collins Press, 1955 (with center column of notes and references) also gives no indication whatsoever of the clear, spurious nature of 1 John 5:7! This is in spite of the fact that the original translators of 1611, themselves, and all the many revisers for the last 380+ years have known that this verse was not added to the scriptures until many hundred years after John wrote this letter.

Trinitarian scholar Robert Young [Young’s Analytical Concordance of the Bible; Young’s Literal Translation of the Bible; etc.] writes in his Concise Critical Commentary:

“These words are wanting [lacking] in all the Greek MSS except two, in all the oldest Ancient Versions, and in all the quotations of v. 6-8 in the ancient Fathers before A.D. 475” - Note for 1 John 5:7, Baker Book House, 1977.

Noted Lutheran scholar and Bible translator, William F. Beck (trinitarian, of course) states in a footnote for 1 John 5:7 in his The New Testament in the Language of Today, 1964 printing:

“Our oldest manuscripts do not have vv. 7b-8a: “in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one. And there are three testifying on earth.” Early in the 16th century an editor translated these words from Latin manuscripts and inserted them in his Greek New Testament. Erasmus took them from this Greek New Testament and inserted them in the third edition (1522) of his Greek New Testament. Luther used the text prepared by Erasmus. But even though the inserted words taught the Trinity, Luther ruled them out and never had them in his translation. In 1550 Bugenhagen objected to these words “on account of the truth.” In 1574 [about 30 years after Luther’s death] Feyerabend, a printer, added them to Luther’s text, and in 1596 [in spite of the fact that scholars knew it was spurious] they appeared in the Wittenberg copies. They were not in Tyndale’s or Coverdale’s Bible or in the Great Bible [which were used by the KJV translators, and often copied nearly verbatim in many places by them].”



The following modern trinitarian Bibles do not include the spurious words found in the KJV at 1 Jn 5:7: Revised Standard Version; New Revised Standard Version; American Standard Version; New International Version; New American Standard Bible; Living Bible; Good News Bible; New English Bible; Revised English Bible; New American Bible (1970 and 1991 editions); Jerusalem Bible; New Jerusalem Bible; Modern Language Bible; Holy Bible: Easy-to-Read Version; An American Translation (Smith-Goodspeed); and translations by Moffatt; C. B. Williams; William Beck; Phillips; Rotherham; Lamsa; Byington; Barclay; etc.

WHY do trinitarian apologists continue to use this commonly known spurious “scripture”?

WHY do so many trinitarians feel it necessary to “preserve” this clearly dishonest King James Version tradition in not only the most-used King James Version itself (which has been revised many times with thousands of changes in its 400-year history while still leaving this spurious verse), but even in at least three modern translations (NKJV, KJIIV, NLV)?
 

tigger 2

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Please carefully and thoroughly search to find a vision, dream, or clear description in scripture wherein God is shown as more than one person.

(This is really not that difficult. Either there is a vision, dream, description, etc. somewhere in scripture clearly showing the one God as three persons or there isn't. Either way, it should not be difficult to ascertain.)

I normally make it clear that I am looking for clear, undisputed scriptures. In this case one might look at the visions of Stephen or Ezekiel, etc. Revelation shows us God at times also. I'm sure there are others.
 

Enoch111

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Please carefully and thoroughly search to find a vision, dream, or clear description in scripture wherein God is shown as more than one person.

And Jesus,[the Second Person of the Godhead, God the Son] when He was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto Him, and he saw the Spirit of God [the third Person of the Godhead, God the Holy Spirit] descending like a dove, and lighting upon Him: And lo a voice from Heaven, [the voice of the first Person of the Godhead, God the Father] saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. (Mt 3:16,17)

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost (Mt 28:19)
 
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Brakelite

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KJV Romans 8
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

In the above we have God... The Spirit of God... The Spirit of Christ... And Christ. Elsewhere we are told
KJV 1 Corinthians 6
17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.
And again...
KJV 1 Corinthians 8
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

I could add many more, but I think you get the picture. We have a Godhead. We are told of its members. We are told they agree. But what we are not told is how they relate ontologically as a unit in material or immaterial bring. To do so, and create a formula for a Trinity and/or version of God not trinitarian, is simply guesswork. I don't think we should be occupying our time arguing and debating over issues about which God has told us nothing. When discussing the nature of the Godhead, we should be taking out shoes off.
 

Enoch111

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Anti-Trinitarians don't give a hoot if you present them with 100 Scriptures to confirm the Bible doctrine of the Trinity (which goes hand and hand with that of the deity of Christ). So let's see if Tigger has the grace and the sense to call it quits at this point.
 
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tigger 2

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Don't you see that merely mentioning three or more persons or things in a sentence or two is not a description of God?

Does 1 John 5:8 really make the three into one Holy Spirit? or person?

“For there are three who bear witness [this is the only place in the entire Bible we find a ‘trinitarian’ formula that even mentions the wordthree’!], The Spirit [which is God according to trinitarians], and the water, and the blood: and the three [are] in one.” - ASV.
 
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Base12

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I have a question for you Tigger 2.

What is everything in this Universe made of that has three components to it, yet is considered one, and one of those components has to do with electricity?
 

tigger 2

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We're looking for Scriptures which show God as three persons (especially dreams and visions).
 

Base12

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We're looking for Scriptures which show God as three persons (especially dreams and visions).
No offense, but if you are unable to understand my question, then you will be unable to understand any Scripture I post.

I'd rather not waste my time posting something that's over your head.
 

Enoch111

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Don't you see that merely mentioning three or more persons or things in a sentence or two is not a description of God?
No, Tigger had neither the grace nor the sense to call it quits. In fact he dug himself deeper into a hole with this unbelieving statement.
 

Taken

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Please carefully and thoroughly search to find a vision, dream, or clear description in scripture wherein God is shown as more than one person.

Person-
a human being regarded as an individual.

Earthly-
relating to the earth or human life on the earth.

Terrestrial-
an inhabitant of the Earth.

I believe God Formed out of the Dust of the Earth, an Earthly, (Terrestrial) Thing, God called, a "man" KIND of thing.


John 3:
[31]
He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly,
and speaketh of the earth:
he that cometh from heaven is above all.


1 Cor 15:
[39] All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of [/B] flesh of men[/B] ...
[40] There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial:

John 8:
[23] And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world;
I am from Above...
I am NOT of this World


If, a person (Earthly man, Terrestrial, human)...
Believes Jesus IS God...then Jesus can not BE A Human.

If, a person (Earthly man, Terrestrial, human)...
Believes Jesus IS Human...then Jesus can't Not Be God.

For / Because:
Mal 3:

[6] For I am the LORD, I change not;

It is not Secret...
God IS Spirit.
God is Invisible to Human Eyes.
God is Supreme Power.
God is Supreme Wisdom.


God CAN and DID "manifest" Himself IN the "LIKENESS" "as" an Earthly man.

Manifest-
- clear or obvious to the eye or mind
- display, show, appear, demonstrate

Likeness-
- resemblance
- the semblance, guise, or outward appearance of.


1 John 1:
[2] (For the life was manifested, and we have SEEN it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)

Rom 8:

[3] For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Phil 2:
[8] And being found (outwardly, revealed, Seen) in fashion as a man...

John 16:

[27] ... I came out from God.

John 16:
[
28] I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world:

So...any Earthly man That SAW Jesus with their Human Eyes...SAW the OUTWARD "simulation" "Likeness" "Appearence" OF something that Looked Like an Earthly man...

If Jesus' Bodily Appearence DID NOT come From the DUST of the Earth (as Human men Do)...
WHERE DID Jesus' Body Come From?

John 6:
[51] I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

And HOW was Jesus' BODY made Ready for use?

Heb 10:
[5] Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

Prepared-
Make ready for use

And WHO did God Purpose this Heavenly Prepared Body For?

Eph 1:
[9] Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

Earthly men SEE with Earthly EYES.
What an Earthly man SEES, he calls it AS he (Knows) and Sees it.

Earthly men (Jesus' Own chosen Disciples) Knew the Look of an Earthly man...Saw the Look of an Earthly man...called Jesus A Man.

BUT THEN...they Learned Jesus IS the Word of God, Come forth out from Gods Mouth, In Heaven To Earth... (fulfilling Scripture:)
Isa 55:

[11] So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

The Disciples First SEEING Jesus, Knew Him by The "OUTER" appearance of What Their Human Eyes Could SEE.

What Changed? The Lord? No...Human men.

Human men Learned About the "INSIDE" of Christ The Lord Jesus. (The part men could NOT See).

And Thereafter? How did Jesus' Disciples KNOW Jesus?

2 Cor 5:

[16]...though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

It is One or the Other...
A man preaching Jesus IS Human Flesh...
IS preaching HOW "they" Know Jesus.

A man preaching Jesus IS a Human Person...
IS preaching HOW "they" Know Jesus


Nothing IN Scripture has Ever taught me, Earthly Humans come forth out from Gods Mouth or came Down from Heaven.


Never have I believed Jesus Appearing IN the "LIKENESS" AS an Earthly man...Made Him A Human man...
As I have Never Believed The Lord God "Changing men" TO BE IN "Gods Likeness"...
Makes "human men...God".

BY the Grace and Mercies and Power and Blessings OF God, I KNOW Christ Jesus IN Spirit.


is shown as more than one person.

God is NOT CREATED.
God is Everlasting Spirit.
God is Supreme Power.
God Does NOT Change.
God Reveals Himself (to mankind) according to His Pleasure.
God Declares What IS Acceptable TO Him, For Earthly men, To call Him.
God IS ONE Lord God Almighty.

Every individual has to Freely Decide IF, When, and How they Do or Do Not Know God.

Glory to God,
Taken