CLEAR CHALLENGES TO THE TRINITY DOCTRINE (A)

[Joseph77]

QUOTE="tigger 2, post: 794568, member: 7653"]CLEAR CHALLENGES TO THE TRINITY DOCTRINE (A)


(A)

Please carefully and thoroughly search to find a vision, dream, or clear description in scripture wherein God is shown as more than one person.

(This is really not that difficult. Either there is a vision, dream, description, etc. somewhere in scripture clearly showing the one God as three persons or there isn't. Either way, it should not be difficult to ascertain.)[/QUOTE
=====================================================
?
"should not be difficult" ???

With so many voices ?

There is only one Voice to Listen To, according to Jesus. His Own Voice.

Then, truthfully, truth.

But with all the other voices, the ones Jesus says His Own Sheep do not listen to,

what happens to all those who are not His Sheep ? --- is it difficult, or not difficult ?

 

[tigger 2]

Please carefully and thoroughly search to find a vision, dream, or clear description in scripture wherein God is shown as more than one person.

(This is really not that difficult. Either there is a vision, dream, description, etc. somewhere in clear, undisputed scripture showing the one God as three persons or there isn't. Either way, it should not be difficult to ascertain.)

 

[justbyfaith]

There is one Lord in holy scripture (Ephesians 4:5, 1 Corinthians 8:6); and clearly, this Lord is the Father (Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21). Nevertheless, no one can say that Jesus is the Lord except by the Spirit of truth (1 Corinthians 12:3 (kjv)). And Jesus is the Lord (1 Corinthians 8:6).

1Co 12:3, Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

 

[justbyfaith]

Concerning Jehovah's Witnesses and those who otherwise deny Christ's Deity:

Rom 10:2, For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.

 

[Joseph77]

QUOTE="tigger 2, post: 795633, member: 7653"]Please carefully and thoroughly search to find a vision, dream, or clear description in scripture wherein God is shown as more than one person.

(This is really not that difficult. Either there is a vision, dream, description, etc. somewhere in clear, undisputed scripture showing the one God as three persons or there isn't. Either way, it should not be difficult to ascertain.)[/QUOTE
============================================
"it should not be difficult to ascertain"..... may be or lead to a conundrum, a stalemate, a conflict,
not even because of trinity, but because of "doctrine" - any time a "doctrine" is challenged, a "doctrine" that organized religion uses for FORTY YEARS, it could be or lead to a big fight or a division, a schism, great and long disagreement, eh ?

People have been told for so long to accept what the hierarchy told them, they 'forgot' how to think cleanly, clearly, how to seek for themselves God Himself, how to listen to Him as He Says to.

See how long also the battle has been , great divisions, over immersion in Jesus' Name ?
Never settled , ongoing embattlement , except for a remnant .... set free.

Same battle over any challenged "doctrine"..... until Jesus Returns.

 

[tigger 2]

Are you really telling me that if one looks up every vision or dream of God in scripture, he will not find out the truth of the matter? Or are you saying that, as here, most trinitarians won't bother to do it for obvious reasons.

Ezek. 1; Dan. 7; Acts 7:55, 56; Rev. 4-5; 19:4. There are probably more, but these, at least, indicate a single person as God (and some show the Son of Man as a separate person). But, of course, no one here will look them up (or search for other examples to prove otherwise).

 

[Jay Ross]

People have been told for so long to accept what the hierarchy told them, they 'forgot' how to think cleanly, clearly, how to seek for themselves God Himself, how to listen to Him as He Says to.

See how long also the battle has been , great divisions, over immersion in Jesus' Name ?
Never settled , ongoing embattlement , except for a remnant .... set free.

Same battle over any challenged "doctrine"..... until Jesus Returns.

Is the above highlighted "quote" simply just your opinion which you might have read some place other than the scriptures?

 

[Joseph77]

Are you really telling me that if one looks up every vision or dream of God in scripture, he will not find out the truth of the matter? Or are you saying that, as here, most trinitarians won't bother to do it for obvious reasons.

Ezek. 1; Dan. 7; Acts 7:55, 56; Rev. 4-5; 19:4. There are probably more, but these, at least, indicate a single person as God (and some show the Son of Man as a separate person). But, of course, no one here will look them up (or search for other examples to prove otherwise).

If you print them out , it may or may not make any difference to anyone.
Relating to reading Scripture , no matter a persons beliefs,
What they believe, is likely already determined (chosen by them), and not likely to change.
No matter what they read.
If they are wrong,
Just like the Scribes and Pharisees Jesus rebuked - Jesus told them they search the Scriptures because they thought they could find life that way, in Scripture.... but they rejected Jesus standing right there in front of them...
Those religious leaders read and studied and memorized more Scripture than anyone here most likely, and possibly more than anyone we know of.... yes, but they would not change from their unbelief.

 

[Joseph77]

Is the above highlighted "quote" simple just your opinion which you might have read some place other than the scriptures?

No.
Back to the original request - if you care for your ideas to be defended, to show / defend whatever your faith is, go back to the post where it was/is/ requested and print out the text that you think defends your faith.
Until then, it appears to be no use to have a discussion with you....
so until then, bye....

 

[Jay Ross]

No.
Back to the original request - if you care for your ideas to be defended, to show / defend whatever your faith is, go back to the post where it was/is/ requested and print out the text that you think defends your faith.
Until then, it appears to be no use to have a discussion with you....
so until then, bye....

Thank you Lord

Where is the video of the Hallelujah Chorus when you need it. LOL

 

[tigger 2]

Still looking for a reasonable response.


Here is what I have found when searching the scriptures for visions of God:

Even though God has caused a representation of himself to be "seen" in dreams and visions, we still don’t know exactly what he "physically" looks like. Still, we should get some idea of the essential knowledge he wants us to know about himself from these inspired visions. We know that he always represents himself as a single person seated on a throne.

For example, at Ezekiel 1:5, 6, 26-28 we see God as he showed himself to Ezekiel in a vision.

"and in the fire was what looked like four living creatures. In appearance their form was that of a man, but each of them had four faces..." - Ezek. 1:5-6, NIV.


Now if this had actually been the description of God, "multiple-oneness God" fans would have had the best proof ever for their passion: we would finally have some real evidence for a multiple-oneness God: a four-in-one God (a "Quadrinity")! But these four persons, each with four faces, represent God’s attendants (cherubim), not God. Each one represents 4 different aspects by its 4 faces. Can you imagine what would be said by trinitarians if God were similarly described as three persons each with three faces?! Or just one person with 3 faces?

The point is that God could (and did) show a clear, undisputed representation of "multiple-oneness" in vision to his inspired prophet, but he never represented himself in such a manner!

Notice that each of these living creatures was in appearance like a man. And every aspect that differed from that of "a man" was carefully described.

Now notice the rest of the vision:

"Above the expanse over their heads was what looked like a [single] throne of sapphire, and high above on the throne was a [single] figure like that of a [single] man. I saw that from what appeared to be his waist [singular] up he looked like glowing metal, as if full of fire, and that from there down he looked like fire; and brilliant light surrounded him. Like the appearance of a rainbow in the clouds on a rainy day, so was the radiance around him. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of [Jehovah]." - Ezek. 1:26-28, NIV.


Remember, we just had a description of spirit persons each of whom looked like a man (except for having four faces). Now we have a description of another person who looks like a man. The differences from the appearance of a man are also noted but do not include anything that would make us think he was, in any way, anything more than a single person! Not three persons, not three heads, not three faces, etc.

God is a single person, the Father alone, Jehovah (YHWH).

 

[tigger 2]

Anyone willing to look up Daniel's vision of God? How many persons does Daniel see as God?

 

[BreadOfLife]

Don't you see that merely mentioning three or more persons or things in a sentence or two is not a description of God?

Does 1 John 5:8 really make the three into one Holy Spirit? or person?

“For there are three who bear witness [this is the only place in the entire Bible we find a ‘trinitarian’ formula that even mentions the word ‘three’!], The Spirit [which is God according to trinitarians], and the water, and the blood: and the three [are] in one.” - ASV.

You will find the answer in the context of Scripture - not in a single verse, besides 1 John 5:8.
Keeping this in mind - here is your answer . . .

The Trinity, as Shown in Scripture
Genesis 1:26
Then God said, "Let US make mankind in OUR image, in OUR likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."

Matt. 28:19
"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,"

John 15:26
“When the Advocate comes, whom I will send to you from the Father—the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father—he will testify about me.

1 Cor. 12:4-6
"Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit. And there are varieties of ministries, and the same Lord. And there are varieties of effects, but the same God who works all things in all persons."

2 Cor. 13:14,
"The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all."

1 John 5:7
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these THREE are ONE.

The Father is God
Ephesians 4:6
One God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

Psalm 68:5
Father of the fatherless and protector of widows is God in his holy habitation.

Malachi 2:10
Have we not all one Father? Has not one God created us? Why then are we faithless to one another, profaning the covenant of our fathers?

Isaiah 63:16
For you are our Father, though Abraham does not know us, and Israel does not acknowledge us; you, O Lord, are our Father, our Redeemer from of old is your name.

2 Corinthians 1:3-4
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort, who comforts us in all our affliction, so that we may be able to comfort those who are in any affliction, with the comfort with which we ourselves are comforted by God.

John 3:16
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

John 8:41
You are doing the works your father did.” They said to him, “We were not born of sexual immorality. We have one Father—even God.”

1 Thessalonians 3:13
So that he may establish your hearts blameless in holiness before our God and Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus.

Jesus is God
Isaiah 7:14
All right then, the Lord himself will give you the sign. Look! The virgin will conceive a child! She will give birth to a son and will call him Immanuel (which means 'God is with us').

Isaiah 9:6
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Matt. 4:7
Jesus said to him, “Again it is written, ‘You shall not put the Lord your God to the test.’”

John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the word was God.

John 1:3
ALL things were made by HIM (Jesus); and without him was not ANY thing made that was made.

John 8:58
Jesus said unto them, “Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM.”

John 10:30
“I and the Father are one."

John 15:9
Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?

John 20:28
And Thomas answered and said unto him [Jesus], “My Lord and my God!”

2 Corinthians 4:4
...lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Philippians 2:6
...Who [Jesus], being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

Colossians 2:9
...For in him [Jesus] dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.

1 Timothy 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Hebrews 1:8
But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Titus 2:13
Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ

The Holy Spirit is God
John 14:16-18
And I will pray the Father, and He will give you *ANOTHER Helper, that He may abide with you forever -- the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.
*This word in Greek means, “another of the SAME kind.”

Luke 12:10
And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.

2 Corinthians 3:17
Now the Lord IS the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

2 Corinthians 13:5
Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that JESUS CHRIST IS IN YOU?

John 14:23
Jesus replied: "If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him and WE will come to him and make OUR home with him.

Acts 5:3-4
But Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back part of the price of the land for yourself? "While it remained, was it not your own? And after it was sold, was it not in your own control? Why have you conceived this thing in your heart? You have not lied to men but to GOD."