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Willie T

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Amen!

Awesome @Willie T

It says it better than I did. :)
Better than I could have, too. Many of us like to claim that all that is necessary is that God's word be spoken... no matter how, nor by whom. I say NOT SO! Otherwise God would not have "given some to be teachers and some to be evangelists", etc. Do what you can, when you can, through who you are and with what you have. But never assume that if YOUR "fantastic" words don't reach people, then they are just rejecting God. There is a good chance that we, ourselves, are really turning them off and pushing them away from God.
 
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I just received this from Grace Centered Magazine, I think it was......... It kind of fits here.

There is a great chasm in our culture. This is the reason fifty-five-year-old bosses are clueless when it comes to motivating and dispatching their younger workforce. This is why parents feel adrift when communicating with their pre-teen and teenage children. This is why we don’t get along.

What causes this? It is the cultural divide between Modernists and Post-Modernists.

In case these are terms with which you’re unfamiliar, let me give you the basics.

The facts are these. If you were born before the latter twentieth century, you grew up in the age of Modernity. By definition, you are a Modernist. You were born in a time that was influenced by the Age of Reason (or, Enlightenment) that dates back to the early 1700s. This was an era that put high value on reason and promoted the idea of liberty. Modernists grew up believing that if one stacks enough facts on top of one another—one will come to a clear and incontrovertible conclusion. And what’s more, it doesn’t really matter how one feels about that conclusion. Modernists believe in absolute values.

On the other hand, for those born in the late twentieth century and beyond, you have grown up in the Post-Modern age. Post-Modernists reject the beliefs of the Modernists. Instead, they embrace the belief that there is no absolute truth, “if it feels good—do it.” They say to Modernists, “If you really do have the truth, why don’t you act more lovingly and gently toward others?”

Frankly, I believe both sides are right…and both sides are wrong. I do believe there is such a thing as absolute truth…absolutely! However, I am sensitive to Post-Modernists who criticize Modernists for what they perceive to be an attitude of arrogant self-righteousness.

One Critical Concept
With that as our introduction, here is an important (spelled c-r-i-t-i-c-a-l) concept: If we Modernists ever hope to touch and impact the Post-Modern mind, we need to lead with the story.

This has been a tough learning curve for me. Like so many other leadership and motivational speakers, I have stood before many audiences and said, “The longest 15 inch trip in the world is from our heads to our hearts.” I believed it. That’s why I said it. After all, it had always been true in my experience. In my world, the facts (or mind) led. Then, it went south to the emotions (or heart).

But, I don’t believe that anymore…especially when it comes to communicating with Post-Modernists. These younger people aren’t wired the way their parents were. As a matter of fact, many don’t want the data, facts, or truth until they first see the purpose, benefits, and meaning.
Frankly, I believe they actually have something here. As the old saying goes, “If you want them to build a boat…begin by creating a love for the sea.”

So, here is a different (but I believe, far more effective) way to get between the ears of our younger cohorts: Lead with the story.
In other words, touch their hearts before you share the facts. After all, when one is emotionally and philosophically bought-in, they will naturally want the facts, details, and data that confirm what they have grown to believe.

I call this the G.B.E. I coined this phrase many years ago when I was teaching college-level advertising and marketing. My point was that no advertiser is going to sell a lot of product until he touches the audience’s hearts. Once you touch their heart and give them Goose Bumps (G.B.E. stands for the Goose Bump Effect), they are much more likely to listen to your message.

I frequently illustrate this concept when I speak to audiences with my McDonald’s story. It goes like this:

I didn’t see the McDonalds’ TV commercial this past Christmas, but something I bet you didn’t see was some middle-aged guy in a white lab coat standing there holding a hamburger and saying, “Hi. I’m from McDonald’s and we want you to eat more of our hamburgers. They taste great. Never mind the triple-bypass. Remember, we make a profit on every burger sold. Eat more of our hamburgers.”

No you didn’t see that. But a TV commercial the hamburger company might do might go like this: We open in a beautiful living room festively decorated for Christmas. The fireplace is glowing and right next to it is a wonderfully decorated Christmas tree. On the other side of the fireplace is a big, green, overstuffed chair. Right between the green, overstuffed chair and the fireplace is a little, round table. And standing in front of the little, round table is Tyler. Tyler is four years old and he’s laying out cookies on the table. About that time, Tyler’s big brother comes through the living room dribbling his basketball. He looks at his little brother and says, ‘Tyler, what are you doing?’

Tyler looks back and says, ‘I’m putting cookies out for Santa Claus…he’s coming tonight, don’t you know?’

With that big brother laughs and says, ‘Tyler that’s crazy! There’s no such person as Santa Claus!’ And, with that, he dribbles his basketball out of the living room…leaving the crushed, broken shell of a little brother.

Next scene: Tyler’s lying in bed, crying, ‘No Santa? There’s got to be a Santa…I know what I’ll do! I’ll go downstairs and check. If my cookies are gone—that proves that Santa is real!’

So Tyler leaves his bed with his teddy bear and his blanket in his hands. He goes downstairs into the dark living room. But the fireplace is still glowing. As he reaches the big, green, overstuffed chair, Tyler’s little feet glue to the floor. He gets his courage up and walks around the chair to his little, round table…and both cookies are still there. His brother is right—there’s no such person as Santa. So Tyler turns to go back to bed. But just as his foot reaches the first stair, a big, white-gloved hand drops down on Tyler’s little set of shoulders. And, the voice from the hand says, ‘Tyler, I’m sorry I’m late…but I really do like your cookies…Merry Christmas!’

Only then does the McDonald’s logo come onto the screen. And only for the purpose of reminding us that this is the company that has brought us this tender, heart-touching moment.

This is one of the reasons why McDonalds is the most successful restaurant chain in the history of the world…they know how to tell the story and touch hearts.

So here’s my question: If you have a message that deserves to be communicated, like the message of Jesus Christ, doesn’t it behoove you to learn how to communicate it effectively? And, these days, the best way to do it is to start with a story. Give them goose bumps. Touch their hearts.

You don't need to learn how to communicate. You as a believer just tell what you know as true. You don't need special skills to do that. Goose bumps are not required.

Stranger
 

bbyrd009

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maybe i misconstrued or over-thought it, dunno; seems like a terrible story for a good conclusion though?
If we Modernists ever hope to touch and impact the Post-Modern mind, we need to lead with the story.
wait, what? Determinism is good, we just have to put on a little (more) razzle-dazzle to sell it first/again?
In my world, the facts (or mind) led. Then, it went south to the emotions (or heart).
he wishes. Bomb shelters did not get built on much less than hysteria imo.
some FOMO tossed in maybe

in his world the "facts" were advertised to be leading, but then who got to pick the "facts?" Doctors who smoked Camels, right
 
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bbyrd009

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I just received this from Grace Centered Magazine, I think it was......... It kind of fits here.

There is a great chasm in our culture. This is the reason fifty-five-year-old bosses are clueless when it comes to motivating and dispatching their younger workforce. This is why parents feel adrift when communicating with their pre-teen and teenage children. This is why we don’t get along.

What causes this? It is the cultural divide between Modernists and Post-Modernists.

In case these are terms with which you’re unfamiliar, let me give you the basics.

The facts are these. If you were born before the latter twentieth century, you grew up in the age of Modernity. By definition, you are a Modernist. You were born in a time that was influenced by the Age of Reason (or, Enlightenment) that dates back to the early 1700s. This was an era that put high value on reason and promoted the idea of liberty. Modernists grew up believing that if one stacks enough facts on top of one another—one will come to a clear and incontrovertible conclusion. And what’s more, it doesn’t really matter how one feels about that conclusion. Modernists believe in absolute values.

On the other hand, for those born in the late twentieth century and beyond, you have grown up in the Post-Modern age. Post-Modernists reject the beliefs of the Modernists. Instead, they embrace the belief that there is no absolute truth, “if it feels good—do it.” They say to Modernists, “If you really do have the truth, why don’t you act more lovingly and gently toward others?”

Frankly, I believe both sides are right…and both sides are wrong. I do believe there is such a thing as absolute truth…absolutely! However, I am sensitive to Post-Modernists who criticize Modernists for what they perceive to be an attitude of arrogant self-righteousness.

One Critical Concept
With that as our introduction, here is an important (spelled c-r-i-t-i-c-a-l) concept: If we Modernists ever hope to touch and impact the Post-Modern mind, we need to lead with the story.

This has been a tough learning curve for me. Like so many other leadership and motivational speakers, I have stood before many audiences and said, “The longest 15 inch trip in the world is from our heads to our hearts.” I believed it. That’s why I said it. After all, it had always been true in my experience. In my world, the facts (or mind) led. Then, it went south to the emotions (or heart).

But, I don’t believe that anymore…especially when it comes to communicating with Post-Modernists. These younger people aren’t wired the way their parents were. As a matter of fact, many don’t want the data, facts, or truth until they first see the purpose, benefits, and meaning.
Frankly, I believe they actually have something here. As the old saying goes, “If you want them to build a boat…begin by creating a love for the sea.”

So, here is a different (but I believe, far more effective) way to get between the ears of our younger cohorts: Lead with the story.
In other words, touch their hearts before you share the facts. After all, when one is emotionally and philosophically bought-in, they will naturally want the facts, details, and data that confirm what they have grown to believe.

I call this the G.B.E. I coined this phrase many years ago when I was teaching college-level advertising and marketing. My point was that no advertiser is going to sell a lot of product until he touches the audience’s hearts. Once you touch their heart and give them Goose Bumps (G.B.E. stands for the Goose Bump Effect), they are much more likely to listen to your message.

I frequently illustrate this concept when I speak to audiences with my McDonald’s story. It goes like this:

I didn’t see the McDonalds’ TV commercial this past Christmas, but something I bet you didn’t see was some middle-aged guy in a white lab coat standing there holding a hamburger and saying, “Hi. I’m from McDonald’s and we want you to eat more of our hamburgers. They taste great. Never mind the triple-bypass. Remember, we make a profit on every burger sold. Eat more of our hamburgers.”

No you didn’t see that. But a TV commercial the hamburger company might do might go like this: We open in a beautiful living room festively decorated for Christmas. The fireplace is glowing and right next to it is a wonderfully decorated Christmas tree. On the other side of the fireplace is a big, green, overstuffed chair. Right between the green, overstuffed chair and the fireplace is a little, round table. And standing in front of the little, round table is Tyler. Tyler is four years old and he’s laying out cookies on the table. About that time, Tyler’s big brother comes through the living room dribbling his basketball. He looks at his little brother and says, ‘Tyler, what are you doing?’

Tyler looks back and says, ‘I’m putting cookies out for Santa Claus…he’s coming tonight, don’t you know?’

With that big brother laughs and says, ‘Tyler that’s crazy! There’s no such person as Santa Claus!’ And, with that, he dribbles his basketball out of the living room…leaving the crushed, broken shell of a little brother.

Next scene: Tyler’s lying in bed, crying, ‘No Santa? There’s got to be a Santa…I know what I’ll do! I’ll go downstairs and check. If my cookies are gone—that proves that Santa is real!’

So Tyler leaves his bed with his teddy bear and his blanket in his hands. He goes downstairs into the dark living room. But the fireplace is still glowing. As he reaches the big, green, overstuffed chair, Tyler’s little feet glue to the floor. He gets his courage up and walks around the chair to his little, round table…and both cookies are still there. His brother is right—there’s no such person as Santa. So Tyler turns to go back to bed. But just as his foot reaches the first stair, a big, white-gloved hand drops down on Tyler’s little set of shoulders. And, the voice from the hand says, ‘Tyler, I’m sorry I’m late…but I really do like your cookies…Merry Christmas!’

Only then does the McDonald’s logo come onto the screen. And only for the purpose of reminding us that this is the company that has brought us this tender, heart-touching moment.

This is one of the reasons why McDonalds is the most successful restaurant chain in the history of the world…they know how to tell the story and touch hearts.

So here’s my question: If you have a message that deserves to be communicated, like the message of Jesus Christ, doesn’t it behoove you to learn how to communicate it effectively? And, these days, the best way to do it is to start with a story. Give them goose bumps. Touch their hearts.
don't get me wrong, the conclusion i get.
And it has certainly appealed well enough to make Christ into the Savior of Sol Invictus. Love how the guy relates Modernists to Reasoning and facts, and then assures us that we need to assiduously avoid them until we have got someone "converted" lol. This is new? Imo Zig Ziglar was doing this like 100 years ago i guess? Doesn't "satan appears as an angel of light" maybe have some bearing here?

also, imo "if it feels good, do it" is a pretty poor way to characterize "we do not yet know."
Feelings have nothing to do with it, except for those who are easily made hysterical imo

i'm just riffing here, maybe you can punch some holes in this
 
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bbyrd009

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"The facts are these"
:rolleyes: usually a dead giveaway i guess

bc all the Old Guys saying that their generation was running on pure emotion but the new generation seems to be working it out just needed some kind of response, right? lol
 
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aspen

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View attachment 2190
So many questions, and not enough time to ask them all. I guess I'll ask the most pressing question.

Why is it that Christian's want me to be saved? In fact every Christian I've ever met will almost do anything to get me around to their way of thinking. They're not even interested in getting to know me, they just want to tell me about Jesus so bad it blind's them.

I mean, how can you get to know someone honestly if you have an agenda? The last Christian I talked to in the real world chewed my ear off right in front of my friend. It was "Jesus this and church that and pray pray pray my friend" He didn't even have the manners to join in the current conversion my friend and I were having. He certainly walked off without a clue about the both of us, but we both had a pretty good idea what this guy's intention was.

I'd probably have a few Christian friends, if they weren't so determined to convert me or anyone else I knew. If they could Just chill and have some fun instead of thinking everyone is in some sort of emergency.

Your saved, right? So what you fussing about.

Yes.....and unfortunately, many Christians continue to check to see if you really are saved as often as they can, long after you have said the magic words. We have a history of weird ideas about what salvation really is.
 
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Project Panda

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I'm sorry that the Christians you've met haven't shown any interest in you as a person.

Why are they so keen to convert you?
Because they believe that you need saving, that if you are not saved you will be judged by God, found to be guilty of rejecting God and be expelled from God's prescence.

You might think, so whats so terrible about that, or that as you don't believe there is a God there is nothing to worry about.

There is a God. Evidence at its most basic is science believes, reluctantly that the universe has a begining. Your problem is to account for why it started. Christians believe God caused time, space, energy and matter to come into being, that God exisits outside of the universe he created. Your explanation for the universe is what?

Historically Jesus lived, was tried, exceuted, burried and his tomb was found to be empty.
All accepted historical facts.
Please can you give a co herent explanation for those facts?
If you can't explain it, thing sereasously about the claims of Christianity.
All accounts of Jesus death, burial and resurrection are documented far later than the actual events. There are no known eye witnesses who have written an account of Jesus life, teachings, miracles or resurrection. The gospels are not actually written by the author's of the book's themselves, even biblical scholar's say they don't know who wrote the four gospels.
 

Willie T

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All accounts of Jesus death, burial and resurrection are documented far later than the actual events. There are no known eye witnesses who have written an account of Jesus life, teachings, miracles or resurrection. The gospels are not actually written by the author's of the book's themselves, even biblical scholar's say they don't know who wrote the four gospels.
You do know, don't you, that even today when it takes anyone only a few seconds to write something and broadcast it worldwide, that histories of even famous people aren't often written by eyewitnesses... 37 minutes after they die.

Aren't you clutching at rather meaningless straws here?
 

Project Panda

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Over three years ago I was where you are at. My husband would witness to every one he came across, all he ever wanted to talk about was God. The worst was when family came over, somehow he would always steer the conversation toward God. I could see it in their faces, the moment he started they were ready to leave. I would literally get nauseous. Deep inside I was so embarrassed and at the same time infuriated. My husband presented us as weirdos. I would plead with him later to cool it with the God talk or every single person we know would eventually stop wanting to hang around us.

But then, God touched my life and I would never be the same. I watch now when my husband steers the conversation toward God and I see people squirm and get that face as if they can't stand to hear God mentioned. I have set where they are and know, it can all change. When you are miserable in a volatile world where everything is uncertain and then you find hope, you want to share that hope. But it is on God's timing and sometimes we forget that.

Why do I want you saved. Because I know what it is like to be blind. You can say you are happy and floating right along getting exactly what you want; but it is all superficial and will not withstand when trouble comes. I don't know how old you are but there will come a day when you realize how short and how uncertain and how unsatisfactory life is. You will bounce from one thing to the next and still be hungry for something but never know what you are hungry for. You will live never fully satisfied. Arrogant and proud; always complaining you got all the answers when you don't have any. If someone asked why you are here(not on this site but living), what is the purpose, even though you might fake it... you got nothing, no real answer. Then you die. You are not untouchable by time. It ticks. You just haven't seen how vulnerable you really are, or maybe you have and that is why you are here.

Or maybe you are here to disprove what all those quacks that try to convert everyone go on and on about. It could be you that is not taking the time to get to those that try to convert you. You have already said you might be their friend, if they would stop talking about God. That sounds like conditions right from the start. That sounds like a wall. You are the one that put it there.
The same would apply if a homosexual tried to hit on me when he knew fair well I was not homosexual. Or if someone tried to convince me that I should support their sports team, knowing I don't like sports.
 

Project Panda

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You do know, don't you, that even today when it takes anyone only a few seconds to write something and broadcast it worldwide, that histories of even famous people aren't often written by eyewitnesses... 37 minutes after they die.

Aren't you clutching at rather meaningless straws here?
Apart from this fact, the gospel accounts are riddled with error and inconsistencies. There are glaring contradictions and absurdities that defy reason and logic, if you only sit down and read each gospel you will notice these thing's.
 

Project Panda

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i dunno, wadr i would say the ones running their mouths cluelessly put it there; Christ never proselytized in that manner; He told ppl to "count the cost."
you know the Bible goes on at length about these people, in many places, and one is specifically advised by the Bible to avoid them, fwiw. I could dig up the refs if you like. Not that it appears you need them :)

Anyone telling you unequivocally that they are "saved" is completely off the rails, and commending themselves to themselves anyway, and i can Quote this too
Swish!
 

Project Panda

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Well first, hello there Project Panda...

If you believe in a creator and are still searching for yours and interested in this subject of a higher intelligence, then I might be able to answer some of your questions.

Not to be an apologist for some Christians, although many are excited in what they have in God, maybe immature and therefore impatient at times. They do not wait for God to move them. I say if God wants a Christian to share their views with another person there’s time, and it is always in his time.

I’m a believer in Christ that does not believe Jesus Christ is the same as God Almighty, his Father. This is a pivotal and distinguishing mark. Nearly 95 percent don’t believe as I do on this point.

So, to your question, why Christians want to be saved?

In my opinion…

Basically, it is because we do want to live in eternity with our God with his son in a peaceful and loving environment. We want this pure love of God. In turn, if we do not 'get saved' we will eventually face eternal death and without an identity - no future and life with no love and joy. We know we are gifted to create, share, love and have joy with others. We want to be like this all the time. It is our destiny.

Some people love the outdoors and cherish the colorful and breathtaking views they capture. They like the feel of fresh air and sun on their skin. We are promised wonders way beyond these that defy our comprehension.
They love their family their friends and want to see they well, all the time. They and myself for one, want this well life that is worth living with other like-minded
people.


Bless you,

APAK
The issue I had with this person was that if he took the time to know me, he would have discovered that I was a believing Christian for 14 year's of my life. But he didn't, he just acted like I hadn't heard the gospel at all, and that he alone had the magic touch.
 

Project Panda

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Well why don't you follow Jesus and find out why? You got nothing to lose by following Jesus. Why don't you go look at the great number of testimonies of what Jesus has done in people's lives, it's only a google search away, we even have a testimonial section on these forums. He has saved people from suicide, He has turned the lives of criminals around, He has intervened in people's lives when they were at their absolute low, he has healed many, including myself, my dad, mum and many other Christians I know. You gotta find out man, and ask Jesus yourself.

Search AA Allen, search Curry Blake, try out SBN, that will get you started. But main thing is, is ask Jesus yourself, put away the skeptic mindset and try believing instead and you will be surprised, if you struggle to believe, ask Jesus to help you believe, ask Jesus to make himself known to you and he will, don't be afraid, give it a go. :)
Covered in the post above.
 

Project Panda

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Because I am old and grey...I have seen too much aggressive evangelism.
It does nothing but put people's back up... I was a hinderance to my older brother and sister in law when we were younger , for YEARS...I would always "get in their face"....
( But in spite of my blunders they did come to the Lord :) )

I never did find that the hard nosed "Do you know you will be shut out of heaven.." ever worked .
Hey...that may be a good Thread to have here on the Site...something like:-

*How many people have you led to the Lord through threats of darkness and punishment, and how many have you won by telling them( as Jesus told his followers to say...) "the Kingdom of heaven in nigh thee."
And show them the glories the peace and the joy of a life with the Lord!

I have also found that so many Christians that I hear blathering on the most, about the warnings of hell, punishment ,and darkness ...when confronted have to admit that actually they have NEVER led one single person to the Lord!!
So even on this site...it would be interesting to take a poll and find out how many souls each of us have brought to the Lord.

Many, many, many that I have met have told me that, sorry no, "they are no good at evangelism" ...not one soul saved in their whole Christian life. And they have never discipled anyone. :(

Talk comes cheap...actions speaks louder

If we took the time to just talk casually to people about the joy , peace and blessing of the Christian life, and let them see that actually YES, we do know how to have fun too...perhaps we would see many more desiring to come to Christ.
Jesus never imparted peace, joy or contentment in my 14 year's of my Christianity. Everything the Bible promised me as a believer never came to pass. In the end I had to give it all up and find my own peace and contentment.
 

Project Panda

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Yes.....and unfortunately, many Christians continue to check to see if you really are saved as often as they can, long after you have said the magic words. We have a history of weird ideas about what salvation really is.
Yes it seems that way.
 

Nomad

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Why is it that Christian's want me to be saved?

Because we know that those who reject Christ's sacrifice for sin stand condemned before God. Those who trust that Jesus died for their sins will be saved. Jesus commissioned believers to spread this message.

Joh 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
 

Project Panda

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Because we know that those who reject Christ's sacrifice for sin stand condemned before God. Those who trust that Jesus died for their sins will be saved. Jesus commissioned believers to spread this message.

Joh 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
You mean you believe it so, to actually know something is entirely different.
I wouldn't say to you that "I believe the earth is round" I'd say I know that the earth is round.
 

APAK

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The issue I had with this person was that if he took the time to know me, he would have discovered that I was a believing Christian for 14 year's of my life. But he didn't, he just acted like I hadn't heard the gospel at all, and that he alone had the magic touch.
It seems you have an axe to grind with someone that does not say the words you want to hear. Is that's why you came on this site?

APAK
 
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