Cloud of witnesses - and the blessing God gives us!

[Karl Peters]

If I listen to the Lord every day, then every day He does some teaching with me. That is how we get understanding.

Today's was interesting to me personally, and He is a personal God which we find out when we do actually listen to Him.

I just got a new grand child yesterday, a son. I have a granddaughter from by daughter, and now I also have a grandson from my son. And so it was the when I sat down and talked back and forth with the Lord He began by giving me a teaching, that He asked me to pass on, about the "great cloud of witnesses"

Heb 12:1 Therefore, since we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also lay aside every encumbrance and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,

Now in the past He had talk to me about how is blessed Abram by giving him children, and even a promised son. That is how God bless Abram by making Him Abraham. Abram means ' the father is exalted', where as Abraham means the 'father of many nations'. And so it was the God blessed Abram with children, even in his old age.

Now I knew that because the Lord had pointed that out to me. I also knew about the fact that we have a cloud of witnesses watching over us in heaven. It turns out they know what we are doing, That can be kind of embarrassing if we really understand it, right?

However this morning the Lord added to it, by simply pointing out that one day I was going to be part of that great cloud of witnesses. And it turns out that is one of the main reason He blesses us with kids, even grand kids!!!

I don't know why I this never occurred to me before? We just don't think out of the box all that well, I guess, which is another reason we need to listen to Him everyday!!!

The things is that with my son, I had him play some sports, like basketball and soccer. And I loved watching him play, like so many parents do. I was a soccer dad. And my son was good at those sports, partly because I would go and play with him to help him be better at them. Now my son is a college soccer coach himself, and so I also get to go to the college games and root his team on. My son is a great blessing to me, and now his son will be a blessing to me also, because if I am alive I will root him and his team on also. AND THE THING IS - I AM GOING TO BE ALIVE - which is simply what the Lord pointed out to me today!! The Lord knows how I am, and knows that whatever my son and grandson choose to do, I will always be there to root them on, because I know Jesus - God's salvation!!

So what about those people today who say they don't want kids because it just costs the money, or because they want sex/ marriage with the same sex?

The Lord Himself gave them the choice to choose!! They could choose right or wrong, good or evil, and the Lord Himself put that out there to choose with our freewill. But how wrong are those decisions. What have we done to our children, when we don't put them in touch with the Lord who is our teacher?

I have a brother and two sisters. And they had children. My brother even now has a grand child also, which He loves playing with because that daughter of his still lives with them and works. So he babysits regularly, and being retired, he loves it. It is a big part of his life.

Yet I also I have a sister who two children don't seem to want to know men. I was talking to her and she had a talk with one of her children who told her that it was not her choice. That is right. It is not the mom's choice, but we know that God can influence people if they do listen to Him. He can make a difference even now for them, if only they would seek Him and listen to Him.

And it is for reason like that, that it is a pleasure to do the work of God like He asks, and come here to preach the Word of God, meaning we people all need to listen to Him!!

Are those missing out on their blessing, really listening to Him? Some do and some don't, but our society is becoming more like Sodom, with the trans ideas, and those ideas that children are the burden and not the blessing. If they listen, do we not have a promise of eternal life, so a promise of a family we can root for forever?

 

[Cassandra]

I also knew about the fact that we have a cloud of witnesses watching over us in heaven. It turns out they know what we are doing,

Congrats on the new grandbaby But whayt do you mean by cloud of witnesses watching over us, when only God can see everywhere? Omnipresent and omniscient.

 

[Pearl]

Congrats on the new grandbaby But whayt do you mean by cloud of witnesses watching over us, when only God can see everywhere? Omnipresent and omniscient.

Hebrews 12:1
Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles. And let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us,

 

[Cassandra]

Hebrews 12:1
Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles. And let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us,

I understand that--I was speaking to what Karl thought it meant--he says cloud of witnesses in Heaven. that is what i was questioning.

 

[Pearl]

I understand that--I was speaking to what Karl thought it meant--he says cloud of witnesses in Heaven. that is what i was questioning.

I knew you would know the verse, I've always understood that the 'cloud' meant not earthly. So therefore heavenly.

 

[Cassandra]

I knew you would know the verse, I've always understood that the 'cloud' meant not earthly. So therefore heavenly.

It cant be. God alone can see all and know all. Angels and people in heaven cannot.

 

[Pearl]

It cant be. God alone can see all and know all. Angels and people in heaven cannot.

it doesn't say the cloud of witnesses can see us. Just that they surround us.

What do you think the verse means?

 

[Karl Peters]

Congrats on the new grandbaby But whayt do you mean by cloud of witnesses watching over us, when only God can see everywhere? Omnipresent and omniscient.

Only God can see everywhere, but what does that have to do in you logic?

If I go to a football game and sit in the stands, I can certainly watch the football game without needing to see "everywhere"!!

So I don't understand your logic?

What do you think the verse in the OP and from the bible means - if not that we have those in heaven watching us?

Did you even talk to the Lord and listen to Him on this?

If we don't actually seek the Lord and His voice then we are not listening to our Teacher, right?

And above all things, that is the main point even in the OP - that we need to listen to our Teacher!

And don't we know that He preaches about the kingdom of God (His Kingdom that He rules over) which is in our "midst", and is thus "surrounding us"

Heb 12:1 Therefore, since we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also lay aside every encumbrance and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,

 

[Karl Peters]

it doesn't say the cloud of witnesses can see us. Just that they surround us.

What do you think the verse means?

Oh my?

To be a witness you have to see something - or you can't be a witness!

That is pretty obvious, isn't it?

 

[Karl Peters]

Look - I know I should be more understanding of people. The Lord does work on me on this, Yet have we not read that wisdom comes from His mouth, so not our understanding?

Prov 2:6 For the LORD gives wisdom;
From His mouth come knowledge and understanding.

When king Solomon wanting understanding to do his job as king, He ask God for the wisdom, knowledge, and understanding to do it!

That was a smart prayer and God gave it him that prayer, but God did it by speaking to king Solomon!!

That is what king Solomon learned and figured out - that to get the wisdom he wanted from God he had to listen to Him and pay attention to what came from the Lord mouth!! And what came from the Lord's mouth was wisdom, knowledge, and understanding!!

If you have not yet figured that out, it is because you are not actually seeking the Lord and what comes from His mouth, but instead you are leaning on your own understanding. King Solomon wrote clearly about not doing that!

Prov 3:5-7 Trust in the LORD with all your heart
And do not lean on your own understanding.
In all your ways acknowledge Him,
And He will make your paths straight.
Do not be wise in your own eyes;
Fear the LORD and turn away from evil.

Now someone my think that I am someone trying to be wise in my own eyes, but that is not what I am doing. I am trying to get you to seek and listen to the Lord our God, because I know that I am not the wise man, He is!!

That is what I have learned from talking to Him!! And if you care to believe it, that is what king Solomon learned also from talking to Him!!!

It is not us who are wise, but it is God who is wise!! Therefore if anyone wants wisdom it means they want God in their lives, so that they might listen to Him!!

And as Christians, we are supposed to be His sheep who hear His voice, but do we?

King Solomon heard the His voice. And since the Lord our God, Jesus Christ, is the King over the Kingdom of God, king Solomon learn that the number of those with greater wisdom that he were numerous. So he starts of his book of Proverbs with statement like:

Prov 1: 1-7 To know wisdom and instruction,
To discern the sayings of understanding,
To receive instruction in wise behavior,
Righteousness, justice and equity;
To give prudence to the naive,
To the youth knowledge and discretion,
A wise man will hear and increase in learning,
And a man of understanding will acquire wise counsel,
To understand a proverb and a figure,
The words of the wise and their riddles.
The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge;
Fools despise wisdom and instruction.

Look close and study what he wrote. He is not Wisdom, but is someone who is trying to hear and get instruction from wisdom, and the wise also, of which he is not saying that he is but is someone trying to figure them out.

If you still don't understand, "Wisdom" is a name for the Holy Spirit, in the Proverbs. Understanding is a name for the Son, Jesus Christ, who if sought will send His Holy Spirit with His words so you might have Understanding (Jesus Christ, the Word of God) in your life. And Knowledge is a name used for the Father who all knowledge comes from.

So proverbs 2:6 is interpreted:

Prov 2:6 For the LORD gives wisdom (The Holy Spirit);
From His mouth come knowledge (The words of the Father) and understanding (and Son who has the words of His Father)

So if you read:

Prov 1:20 Wisdom shouts in the street,
She lifts her voice in the square;.

It means that the Holy Spirit can even be pick up by listening to the wise people in the streets! Or have you not read that the word of God we are preaching in found in our mouths, as well as in our hearts? Note it is found first in our mouths, even in the people have looked to wisdom while talking in the streets! King Solomon figured out that was what was happening after he started seeking the Lord and listening to Him. Even the wise unbeliever can find wisdom, even though he does not know Understanding (Jesus Christ) Therefore a person might seek the wise thing to do inside them, and if their heart has not for evil (demons), even they will get help from God, even though they don't seek understanding (Jesus Christ the word of God) So it is that the Holy Spirit "Wisdom" is often found shouting in the streets, but people don't want Understanding!!

And you won't get Jesus Christ (Understanding), if you don't repent of your ways and open up to Understanding!!

And do you not also know that the King had His Kingdom, and that cloud of witnesses can see?? Do you even know that some of us are going to that place (in the stands at the stadium so to speak) which surrounds us (like good stadiums do) where we will watch and root for the team our kids will be playing on (if brought up in the Lord)

 

[Karl Peters]

Yes, it is pretty obvious as you say, but the passage doesn't actually say they can see, and that was what I was pointing out.

???

So how do you think the verse should have been written - Something like ' a cloud of witness who could witness because they can see and do see, and observe, and so they witness to what they witness...

What you are suggesting is that the verse needed to be written in a redundant fashion! Is that wise?

 

[Karl Peters]

I have no idea what you mean and no intention of resorting to supposition.
My own understanding of the verse is that those who have been in Christ and have preceded us, are rooting for us.

There is it "My own understanding"

That is where we go wrong!

It is why we are not aware of what is going on around us.

It is also why we do not understand the Scriptures nor the Lord Jesus Christ.

When you start seeking Him, you find out that God is spirit = which means there is a spiritual realm around us! And you find out that The Holy Spirit of God is not the only spirit around us. When most even start to figure this out they start looking at evil, because that they already had in them. Yet getting to know the Lord Jesus Christ means you get to know the KING who is over the Kingdom of God, and so you find out then that there are more with you than against you!

So then the more you actually practice seeking the Lord and His Kingdom, as in 'seek ye first the Kingdom of God'. the more and more you understanding of what is going on is replaced by the Lord's understanding of what is going on around you. So you don't make flipant comments like:

it doesn't say the cloud of witnesses can see us. Just that they surround us.

because you know they can see us, even when we don't see with our spiritual eyes.

Is 6:9 He said, “Go, and tell this people:
‘Keep on listening, but do not perceive;
Keep on looking, but do not understand.’
Is 6:10 “Render the hearts of this people insensitive,
Their ears dull,
And their eyes dim,
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
Hear with their ears,
Understand with their hearts,
And return and be healed.”

So the Lord tells Isaiah to tell this people to not perceive what is going on - and so then that is what the writings of Isaiah do!!! And not HIs writings alone but all the Scriptures:

Gal 3:22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

All the writings are design so that if you lean on your own understanding, instead of actually believing and thus seeking the Lord and what He has to say - will just shut you up under sin!!! And that so your hears are insensitive, your ears dull, and eye dim!

To fix that problem you must have faith the Jesus Christ is there to be heard from and so learned from. If you indeed seek Him; He then come into you (via His Holy Spirit) and opens you eyes to see and your ears to hear.

Yet not all do actually seek Jesus Christ and even to this day:

Rom 11:8 just as it is written,
“GOD GAVE THEM A SPIRIT OF STUPOR,
EYES TO SEE NOT AND EARS TO HEAR NOT,
DOWN TO THIS VERY DAY.”

So there is the good news that we can get to know Jesus Christ personally and He will open our ears and eyes, so we will come to understand about the Kingdom of God and the cloud of witnesses there surrounding us, and understand that they hear and see!

Luke 4:17-19 The scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to Him. He unrolled the scroll and found the place where it was written,
“THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD IS UPON ME (the Messiah),

BECAUSE HE HAS ANOINTED ME TO PREACH THE GOOD NEWS TO THE POOR.

HE HAS SENT ME TO ANNOUNCE RELEASE (pardon, forgiveness) TO THE CAPTIVES,

AND RECOVERY OF SIGHT TO THE BLIND,

TO SET FREE THOSE WHO ARE OPPRESSED (downtrodden, bruised, crushed by tragedy),

TO PROCLAIM THE FAVORABLE YEAR OF THE LORD [the day when salvation and the favor of God abound greatly].”


So as can be seen again above - Isaiah and his writings were to cause people to not see and not hear, and that so that by faith - that belief that Jesus Christ is there for us and so also His Kingdom - we might be released and have forgiveness of sins so that our spiritual senses are recovered.

Then we hear from the Lord and He also lights up what is and has been going on around us. There is God, and not only God, but angels and demons, but far more angels than demons, and there is a Kingdom in which we become a part of when we seek the King, and if then we are removed spiritually from this world we then go to the world we are of - the Kingdom of God - and still we see and hear and are part of the cloud of witnesses, rooting on those we love because as witnesses we still see what is going on - like fans in the stands!

Therefore - if you have relatives who loved you and that have left this physical realm and are now part of the Kingdom of God, do they not still root for you today?

 

[Pearl]

Wow @Karl Peters you have got yourself quite het up about my post, and in truth it isn't worth the effort. But what you've just said is your understanding which seems to be worth more than mine.

 

[Karl Peters]

Wow @Karl Peters you have got yourself quite het up about my post, and in truth it isn't worth the effort. But what you've just said is your understanding which seems to be worth more than mine.

Again you fail to understand, and that because you don't seek the Lord for understanding, but again lean on your own understanding because of your lack of faith that the Lord is there to be heard from.

I am not "het up" or even "heated up", but I am trying to point you to Jesus Christ to listen yourself to what He has to say to you, personally!!

I do that because I know that will make you a better person; and one of the ways He does that is by giving you better understanding of what goes on around you.

So I am not pointing you to me and my understanding, but to Him who is Truth!

Now because I know Him I do know that there is a spiritual realm around us where exits both good and evil. The Bible actually has this information, so I also used some verses. Never-the-Less, I didn't use the verses to point to the Bible, but rather used the Bible to point to Him - Jesus Christ the King of Kings and Lord of Lords - not me.

So if the Bible tells you there is a cloud of witnesses, there is a cloud of witnesses, and as witnesses the do witness, see what is going on because He, the Lord Jesus Christ gave them the ability to witness - see what is going on. But you didn't really understand that, and still don't, otherwise you too would be seeking Him and His voice - and look again at what I just wrote - I am not pointing you to me, like you thought, but I am sincerely pointing you to Him, like you didn't understand.

Seek Him, and listen to Him and He will give you understanding - or did you not read the OP where I wrote:

If I listen to the Lord every day, then every day He does some teaching with me. That is how we get understanding.

Today's was interesting to me personally, and He is a personal God which we find out when we do actually listen to Him.

Now in the past He had talk to me about how is blessed Abram by giving him children, and even a promised son. That is how God bless Abram by making Him Abraham. Abram means ' the father is exalted', where as Abraham means the 'father of many nations'. And so it was the God blessed Abram with children, even in his old age.

Now I knew that because the Lord had pointed that out to me. I also knew about the fact that we have a cloud of witnesses watching over us in heaven.

Clearly in what I wrote I explained that He talks to us, and so me also, and that I hear from Him, but you could not except that possibility, so you thought it is about your understanding and my understanding, and thus did not seek Him for an explanation from Him for yourself. And this too is covered in the Bible:

Jn 3:11 “Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know and testify of what we have seen, and you do not accept our testimony.

And I have not even given you any testimony that is hard to understand by reading the Bible, not that the Bible covers every possible thing, but enough to get a person seeking Jesus Christ and listening to Him if they want to believe in Hm.

It is not hard to understand that if the Bible explains there is a cloud of witnesses, then there is indeed a cloud of witnesses - yet a scoffer, not willing to believe even what is written in the Bible, will say something silly like:

it doesn't say the cloud of witnesses can see us. Just that they surround us.

When it is obvious that to witnesses something they would have to be able to witness it (see it). So the statement was nothing more that a denial of what is going on, and not really a bit of reasoning like it suggest to be.

So then who wants us to not know and see what is really going on, as to promote such silliness? It is not the Lord, for He is going to show us what is going on if we seek Him, but will also have us blind if we do not wish to seek Him - (remember I pointed out how He had Isaiah write - so that with their eyes they would not see) So the Scriptures leave you blind spiritually speaking if you lean on your own understanding, but they also have in them the wisdom to seek Him. The rebellious person won't seek Him, but the person who repents of their understanding and way so they might get better information will turn from their ways and learn from Him - so that their eyes get opened as to what is going on around them.

So who promoted your writing "it doesn't say the cloud of witnesses can see us. Just that they surround us."?

Do you know about the battle inside us and who we need to seek to get victory over it?

The Lord makes sense, but the devil needs us blind to what is really going on.

I don't write that to put you or anyone down, because the snake is tricky as we all should understand, but I write to you so that you migh consider and then actually seek the Lord and what He says. I tell you truly that there are those who are watching and are rooting for you to start seeking the Lord of lords and King of kings.

They are rooting for us to seek Him, my friend!

 

[Pearl]

I am trying to point you to Jesus Christ

Thank you @Karl Peters but you don't need to do that I found him many years ago. and to tell me to

start seeking the Lord of lords and King of kings.

I think that is very arrogant of you and it's shame you can't recognise a Godly woman when you come across one.

 

[Stumpmaster]

I enjoyed the company of a dear old man in his 80's, a former pastor and National Superintendent, but I didn't always agree with his beliefs. He was a Ceasationist, I am not. He didn't think Satan had a kingdom, I do. And he thought the great cloud of witnesses in Hebrews 12:1 was a reference to spectators in heaven, whereas I consider it to be a metaphor that relates to those in the previous chapter, known as the Hall of Faith, who surround us in the sense of being highly esteemed examples to spur us on in "our race".

The Greek word nephos (νέφος) means “a mass of clouds” or “a cloud” 12. It is derived from the Proto-Hellenic word *népʰos, which in turn is derived from the Proto-Indo-European word *nébʰos, meaning “cloud” 23.
There are several derivatives of the word nephos in the English language. Here are some examples:

1. Nephology: The scientific study of clouds 4.
2. Nephoscope: A meteorological instrument used to observe the direction and velocity of clouds 4.
3. Nephogram: A photograph or image of a cloud or clouds 4.
4. Nephelometer: An instrument used to measure the concentration of suspended particles in the atmosphere 4.
5. Nephophobia: An irrational fear of clouds 4. [BingChat]

 

[Cassandra]

Thank you @Karl Peters but you don't need to do that I found him many years ago. and to tell me to

I think that is very arrogant of you and it's shame you can't recognise a Godly woman when you come across one.

Pearl, you don't get it. God talks to Karl, but not to either of us. We both need to go back and sit down.

 

[Karl Peters]

Pearl, you don't get it. God talks to Karl, but not to either of us. We both need to go back and sit down.

He does indeed talk you, Cassandra, and everyone, but who listen to Him?

Is it the sarcastic person?

Is it the person who doesn't realize the cloud of witnesses can actually see to witness?

If two of those people come together should they think that they have the Lord with them?

And if Cassandra looks to Pearl and Pearl to Cassandra; then nether are looking to God are they?

People - the Lord wants you actually looking to Him and what He has to say to you, even when it comes to others. That was what the Prophets and writers of the Scriptures were trying to tell you, and is what the Holy Spirit is trying to get through to you Today- but still you seek comfort in each other and become sarcastic - so are you really seeking the Lord or just pretending to?

You can indeed hear from Him, but having heard from Him is not hearing from Him!

And there are a cloud of witnesses who know that, and they see!

 

[Karl Peters]

We both look to God @Karl Peters - so you are a bit wrong there. And guess what? He speaks to us because we are His. Which is absolutely wonderful. To be the beloved child of Almighty God and able to call Jesus our brother.

You mean you believe you both have looked to God at some point!!

He not then point out:

Jn 5:44 “How can you believe, when you receive glory from one another and you do not seek the glory that is from the one and only God?

And concerning this:

I think that is very arrogant of you and it's shame you can't recognise a Godly woman when you come across one.

Did He not point out to you that 'arrogance' is seeking yourselves when God is always with you?

He did point that out to me after I read your accusation. Still - it is correct to realize that He is there speaking to us, so all we have to do is actually seek Him, but do we or just pretend we do?

Rev 3:19,20 ‘Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent.
‘Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.

But to others it was written:

Gal 3:1-3 You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified?
This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?
Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?

Still, don't think I do not understand. I have plenty of times I don't want to listen to Him either, though I have listen to Him. Like this morning. I did not want to sit down and talk with Him like I normally do. And one of the reason was that He will have me do things and I have a lot to do for my business. But I gave Him because He was standing there asking me to sit down with Him. And while He had not had me spend up time just recently posting, and which I prefer because I have a business that requires lot of work from me, yet today He wanted me to post, I wasn't going to, but He was still standing there asking me politely over and over. And when He asks me it is usually because someone is not listening to Him like He wants them to!!

So perhaps you consider actually listening to Him and don't be so "arrogant", or have you not read that as you judge so shall you be judged. It was not me, and my pointing out the cloud of witnesses, nor how they see because they are witnesses, which anyone seek Him would be able to get that obvious confirmation from, and so then point others to Him who is "arrogant" but it is the person and people who do not seek Him but look to each other to get their glory.

Therefore, there really is only one thing we need to know, and that has to do with you hearing with faith, not heard with faith!

 

[Ziggy]

epiphany:
A sudden insight or intuitive understanding:

When I lived in Florida I had a small rose bush. One day I decided to go out and prune it because it was getting scraggly.
As I was trimming the branches I understood how God trims off the dead branches so the new branches could grow.
I don't remember the details of the conversation that that one small action caused me to start talking to God and acknowledging that he was giving me an understanding of how God prunes us. He removes the thorny branches so the new gentler branches can grow and bare more roses.
The more I worked in my yard, raking, weeding, tending a small 8' raised garden. The more I understood about the Garden God planted in Eden.
God is the gardner. And it was when Mary Magdalene was wondering where they had taken the body of Jesus and a man spoke to her.
And she thought he was the gardner, until he said her name.

Jhn 20:15
Jesus saith unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? whom seekest thou? She, supposing him to be the gardener, saith unto him, Sir, if thou have borne him hence, tell me where thou hast laid him, and I will take him away.
Jhn 20:16
Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master.

Some people ask, How does God speak to you, what does he sound like?
I say it's like an epiphany.

Hugs