Co- Redemptrix

[BreadOfLife]

So the scripture says that God is no respector of men, but you believe He makes special exceptions and put them in His word to confuse the truth?

WHO hardens the heart. God or Satan?
Satan causes us to have a hard heart and sin because of our lack of resistance of him

HOWEVER, Exod 9:12 tells us that GOD hardened Pharoah's heart.
Pharoah was an exception to the rule.

Jesus said that we must be BAPTIZED in order to be saved (Mark 16:16).
HOWEVER, He saved the Thief on the Cross without him being Baptized.

The Thief was an exception to the rule.
As I said - God CAN and DOES make exceptions . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

Thank you for proving that the RCC is a faction of the Catholic church (or there would be no reason for the RCC to self identity as the RCC).

First of all - what is the "RCC"??

Secondly - the official title of the Catholic Church is - "The Catholic Church."

Thirdly - if by "RCC", you are referring to the "Roman" Catholic Church - this is not a title of the Church.
"Roman" or "Latin" simply refers to the RITE to which most Catholics belong. There is only ONE Catholic Church made up of TWENTY Rites. These include the Melkite, Ruthenian, Byzantine, Alexandrian, Maronite and several others.
ALL of them are in FULL communion with each other and the Pope.

I suggest that if you are gong to continue to be an anti-Catholic - at LEAST do some homework on the matter so that you don't embarrass yourself any further . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

This is very good and true. I'm impressed.

I don't know why you're impressed.
The Church has taught this for 2000 years.

 

[Jun2u]

I recommend that you read Matthew 28:18 and spend a little time considering the implications.

What does Matthew 28:18 have to do with John 12:47 as Jesus being the Savior at His first coming or the meaning asked about judging the living and the dead?

Every Christian know that Jesus is all powerful, but it does not mean He randomly exercises His Sovereignty. He still abides by the rules He set forth that are contained in the Scriptures! Matthew 28:18 I'm afraid is an umbrella scripture (so to speak) that can be utilized for any purpose.

My statements and question are very simple which can be answered by a well versed / knowledgeable Christian as you think you are. By all means do so.

To God Be The Glory

 

[truth333]

= allowing/permitting/cooperating more so than assisting = be it done unto me according to thy word - imho - we are called to do likewise - twinc

Our Lady is not the co-redemptrix. Mary would not be happy about this fallacy, this is an affront to her Son.

Romans 5:12 Wherefore as by one man sin entered into this world, and by sin death; and so death passed upon all men, in whom all have sinned.

St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologiae, Pt. I-II, Q. 81, A. 5: “…On the contrary, The Apostle says (Rom. 5:12): By one man sin entered into this world. Now if the woman would have transmitted original sin to her children, he should have said that it entered by two, since both of them sinned, or rather that it entered by a woman, since she sinned first… I answer that, therefore original sin, is contracted, not from the mother, but from the father: so that, accordingly, if Eve, and not Adam, had sinned, their children would not contract original sin: whereas, if Adam, and not Eve, had sinned, they would contract it.”

1 Corinthians 15:45 The first man Adam was made into a living soul; the last Adam into a quickening spirit.

John 1:29 The next day, John saw Jesus coming to him, and he saith: Behold the Lamb of God, behold him who taketh away the sin of the world.

2 Peter 3:18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Our Lady's role in salvation is very integral but Jesus alone saved the world, as the One Redeemer of the world. Our Lady is the living Ark of the New testament, the fulfillment of the old testament type i.e. ark of the old testament. There are so many prototypes of Mary in the old testament that signify her role in salvation.

Mary: Mother Of God & Ark Of The New Covenant - Absolute Proof!

Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant

 

[101G]

By one man sin entered into this world. Now if the woman would have transmitted original sin to her children, he should have said that it entered by two, since both of them sinned, or rather that it entered by a woman, since she sinned first… I answer that, therefore original sin, is contracted, not from the mother, but from the father: so that, accordingly, if Eve, and not Adam, had sinned, their children would not contract original sin: whereas, if Adam, and not Eve, had sinned, they would contract it.”

Eve is of Adam and is ONE. for the woman came out of the Man, believe it or not there was only ONE Adam on the planet, until the Lord Jesus came into this world, (the Last Adam). both male and female are one Man/Adam, in the same species, MANKIND. so either parent was infected with sin, for both died.

Peace in Christ Yeshua.

 

[Jun2u]

Jesus redeemed (paid for) ALL sinners.

Let's take this to it's logical conclusion.

If Jesus redeemed (paid for) ALL sinners, what sin can anyone commit that can put him in hell, since hell will heavily be populated? NONE!

However, NOT all will be saved because they will reject this gift.

WRONG! The unsaved are accountable like any other person, because the "wages of sin is death." and not because they will reject the gift, but because they are sinners unless Jesus becomes their Savior!

Redemption and salvation are TWO different things. Hitler, Charles Manson and Ted Bundy were ALL redeemed.

Is this the teaching of your church? Have your church ever read Revelation 21:8?

Quote: But the fearful and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

BreadOfLife said,
Whether or not they were saved is a different story.

Is there really a question of their being saved or their redemption according to Revelation 21:8?

You may have fooled the likes of michaelvpardo because he doesn't know any better, but not a child of God, no you can't and there are many.

To God Be The Glory

 

[101G]

If Jesus redeemed (paid for) ALL sinners, what sin can anyone commit that can put him in hell, since hell will heavily be populated? NONE!

Not saying that you're right or wrong, but consider this. Romans 3:25 "Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God".

what about the sins, meaning sin, of the future? which I'm very much aware of with the remedy found in 1 John 1: & 9 and in 1 peter 4:8, and of course 1 John 2:1.

 

[truth333]

WHO hardens the heart. God or Satan?
Satan causes us to have a hard heart and sin because of our lack of resistance of him

HOWEVER, Exod 9:12 tells us that GOD hardened Pharoah's heart.
Pharoah was an exception to the rule.

Jesus said that we must be BAPTIZED in order to be saved (Mark 16:16).
HOWEVER, He saved the Thief on the Cross without him being Baptized.

The Thief was an exception to the rule.
As I said - God CAN and DOES make exceptions . . .

Hi BOL, I agree that God hardened the heart of Pharaoh and what this really means is that God withdrew His grace away from Pharaoh and leaving him to his corrupted self. I agree that water baptism is mandatory, its biblical. But in truth, the good thief was not an exception. He was saved under the old law. The good thief, upon dying, went to Abraham's Bosom. This is where Jesus, after He died, He went to preach the Good News to the old testament saints, waiting to be delivered. The church of Jesus Christ did not commence until the day of Pentecost i.e. Acts chapter 1 and 2.

 

[Richard_oti]

<snip>
The good thief, upon dying, went to Abraham's Bosom. This is where Jesus, after He died, He went to preach the Good News to the old testament saints, waiting to be delivered.<snip>

Mat 9:12 But when he heard it, he said, They that are whole have no need of a physician, but they that are sick.

1Pe 3:19 in which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison, 20 that aforetime were disobedient, when the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water:

The Passover sacrifice was to be roasted whole. Not a bone was to be broken, and none of it was allowed to remain until morning. Whatever was left, was to be burned by fire.

If Jesus is our Passover [1 Cor 5:7], what IYO would be the "symbolism" of being roasted whole and burned with fire.

BTW: Welcome to CB!

 

[truth333]

Mat 9:12 But when he heard it, he said, They that are whole have no need of a physician, but they that are sick.

1Pe 3:19 in which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison, 20 that aforetime were disobedient, when the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water:

The Passover sacrifice was to be roasted whole. Not a bone was to be broken, and none of it was allowed to remain until morning. Whatever was left, was to be burned by fire.

If Jesus is our Passover [1 Cor 5:7], what IYO would be the "symbolism" of being roasted whole and burned with fire.

BTW: Welcome to CB!

Thank you. I am not seeing the correlation of my answer to BOL and what you are citing and asking? Or is it just a separate unrelated question?

 

[Richard_oti]

Thank you. I am not seeing the correlation of my answer to BOL and what you are citing and asking? Or is it just a separate unrelated question?

I <snipped> your post to the relevant portion unto which I was responding. Which, was / is the place in which Jesus upon his death went to preach and those he went unto to preach.

If you see nothing, don't worry about it.

 

[truth333]

Which, was / is the place in which Jesus upon his death went to preach and those he went unto to preach.

What is your question that is related to where the souls of the old testament saints where waiting for their deliverance, with the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

 

[michaelvpardo]

What does Matthew 28:18 have to do with John 12:47 as Jesus being the Savior at His first coming or the meaning asked about judging the living and the dead?

Every Christian know that Jesus is all powerful, but it does not mean He randomly exercises His Sovereignty. He still abides by the rules He set forth that are contained in the Scriptures! Matthew 28:18 I'm afraid is an umbrella scripture (so to speak) that can be utilized for any purpose.

My statements and question are very simple which can be answered by a well versed / knowledgeable Christian as you think you are. By all means do so.

To God Be The Glory

I don't think I'm a knowledgeable Christian, never made that claim, never attended a seminary, never made an effort to learn a dead language, or earn a piece of paper declaring me a "doctor" of divinity, or any such vain thing. I only claim to know God and I knew Him as my friend long before I knew Him as my Savior and Lord. To some people that's arrogant, to others, insane, but that's my claim and my boast. What I say in regard to Him is according to what He has taught me by His Spirit and through His word. If you can't receive those things, then I suppose that they aren't for you. However, if you know Him by His Spirit, then I'm confident that He is able to teach you in your time. I don't find it productive or helpful to serve up foods that others haven't developed the palate for. Nor is there any reason for me to defend Christ's doctrines when He is fully able to defend His own. I entered this discussion only because the very notion of a "co-redemptrix" is an assault upon my friend and my Lord that is an offense to all who understand the price the Lord paid for our freedom, something of a reflexive reaction to a denigration of our Lord. How much do you love Him? What would you do to honor Him? What could you give Him that He doesn't already possess? How does anything add to God? Don't you see that there is only one thing we possess, our will, and even that will is subject to our nature. I love the scripture that asks, "can a leopard change its spots?" The answer is obvious , yet as children we believe that we can change our nature. That's God's job and it was His promise to do so before the birth of His Son. He kept His promise. He established His new Covenant in the blood of His Son, and He keeps it to this day as an eternal covenant by His Spirit. These are things every Christian should know, but where is that knowledge?

 

[michaelvpardo]

First of all - what is the "RCC"??

Secondly - the official title of the Catholic Church is - "The Catholic Church."

Thirdly - if by "RCC", you are referring to the "Roman" Catholic Church - this is not a title of the Church.
"Roman" or "Latin" simply refers to the RITE to which most Catholics belong. There is only ONE Catholic Church made up of TWENTY Rites. These include the Melkite, Ruthenian, Byzantine, Alexandrian, Maronite and several others.
ALL of them are in FULL communion with each other and the Pope.

I suggest that if you are gong to continue to be an anti-Catholic - at LEAST do some homework on the matter so that you don't embarrass yourself any further . . .

Maybe you're just a kid, but when I was forced to attend a Roman Catholic Church, the sign in front of it said "Saint Martin of Tours Roman Catholic Church" as did every Roman Catholic Church I ever stepped into or saw on the street. The same was true of every Greek orthodox church or Russian orthodox church. When I've spoken to members of the Greek orthodox church or Ukrainian orthodox church they made it clear that they were either Greek orthodox or Ukrainian orthodox because they distinguished themselves from the Roman Catholic church in either orthodoxy, orthopraxy, or both. If you've never heard of the RCC, then I suggest that you must've been living on some other planet, but maybe you really are that young.

 

[michaelvpardo]

WHO hardens the heart. God or Satan?
Satan causes us to have a hard heart and sin because of our lack of resistance of him

HOWEVER, Exod 9:12 tells us that GOD hardened Pharoah's heart.
Pharoah was an exception to the rule.

Jesus said that we must be BAPTIZED in order to be saved (Mark 16:16).
HOWEVER, He saved the Thief on the Cross without him being Baptized.

The Thief was an exception to the rule.
As I said - God CAN and DOES make exceptions . . .

Nope, sorry, you're wrong. True repentance is the work of the Holy Spirit, always was, always will be. The cart doesn't go before the horse, repentance is the result of salvation, not the cause of it. See, I didn't even use caps or italics to say that you're wrong because I didn't want to give anyone the impression that I was some kind of petulant child standing with my fists balled up and chest stuck out.
The Lord's been telling me that you have potential, but I'm still waiting to see it. Submit to Him fully and maybe He'll take that chip off your shoulder. It really does make you seem kind of ridiculous.
I probably should avoid writing this stuff in the wee hours of the morning.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Nope, sorry, you're wrong. True repentance is the work of the Holy Spirit, always was, always will be. The horse doesn't go before the cart, repentance is the result of salvation, not the cause of it. See, I didn't even use caps or italics to say that you're wrong because I didn't want to give anyone the impression that I was some kind of petulant child standing with my fists balled up and chest stuck out.
The Lord's been telling me that you have potential, but I'm still waiting to see it. Submit to Him fully and maybe He'll take that chip off your shoulder. It really does make you seem kind of ridiculous.

FALSE.

One cannot be saved without repentance. We must come to god on our knees, so to speak.
We don't strut over to Him, demand salvation - then repent. First comes repentance - then salvation

PS - those who nitpick about bold or italics on a discussion forum usually do so because they have run out of ammunition . . .

 

[truth333]

FALSE.

One cannot be saved without repentance. We must come to god on our knees, so to speak.
We don't strut over to Him, demand salvation - then repent. First comes repentance - then salvation

PS - those who nitpick about bold or italics on a discussion forum usually do so because they have run out of ammunition . . .

I agree. Bolding and italics, is just to focus on a particular part of a verse, as being most relevant, nothing more.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Let's take this to it's logical conclusion.

If Jesus redeemed (paid for) ALL sinners, what sin can anyone commit that can put him in hell, since hell will heavily be populated? NONE!

WRONG! The unsaved are accountable like any other person, because the "wages of sin is death." and not because they will reject the gift, but because they are sinners unless Jesus becomes their Savior!

Is this the teaching of your church? Have your church ever read Revelation 21:8?

Quote: But the fearful and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

BreadOfLife said,
Whether or not they were saved is a different story.

Is there really a question of their being saved or their redemption according to Revelation 21:8?

You may have fooled the likes of michaelvpardo because he doesn't know any better, but not a child of God, no you can't and there are many.

To God Be The Glory

Your position is based on the complete inability to differentiate between Redemption and Salvation.
Just because Jesus PAID for us doesn't mean that everybody will automatically accept this gift.

Jesus didn't die for SOME - He died for ALL. - but NOT all will be saved because they reject Him.
He died for YOU - and He died for the Pharisees. He died for ME and He died for Hitler and Manson and every other evil person that ever existed. To believe otherwise is heresy.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that WHOEVER believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Maybe you're just a kid, but when I was forced to attend a Roman Catholic Church, the sign in front of it said "Saint Martin of Tours Roman Catholic Church" as did every Roman Catholic Church I ever stepped into or saw on the street. The same was true of every Greek orthodox church or Russian orthodox church. When I've spoken to members of the Greek orthodox church or Ukrainian orthodox church they made it clear that they were either Greek orthodox or Ukrainian orthodox because they distinguished themselves from the Roman Catholic church in either orthodoxy, orthopraxy, or both. If you've never heard of the RCC, then I suggest that you must've been living on some other planet, but maybe you really are that young.

Careful - your ignorance is showing again . . .

A Church building with the title "Roman Catholic Church" on it is there to show which RITE they adhere to.
If you go to a Maronite Catholic Church - it'l say "Maronite Catholic Church" on it. The same goes for Byzantine, Melkite, Ruthenian, Alexandrian and the rest. A "Rite" is largely a matter of custom - not doctrine.

Do your homework before you continue to embarrass yourself . . .