Co- Redemptrix

[BreadOfLife]

Lol! You completely and willfully ignored dogma in favor of the robber council of the second vatican council and its heretical catechism.

Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, Session 11, Feb. 4, 1442, ex cathedra: “Regarding children, indeed, because of danger of death, which can often take place, when no help can be brought to them by another remedy than through the sacrament of baptism, through which they are snatched from the domination of the Devil [original sin] and adopted among the sons of God, it advises that holy baptism ought not be deferred for forty or eighty days, or any time according to the observance of certain people…” (Denz. 712)

You not only misunderstand Pelagianism but everything else. Your a prideful man.

Vatican

And YOU are completely ignorant of Catholic teaching.
Limbo was never a dogmatic teaching of the Church.

 

[truth333]

And YOU are completely ignorant of Catholic teaching.
Limbo was never a dogmatic teaching of the Church.

All unbaptized person go to hell, can't you read!?

And YOU are completely ignorant of Catholic teaching.
Limbo was never a dogmatic teaching of the Church.

Lol! I provide the infallible proof and you say I am ignorant of Catholic teaching!? You are a blind fool. And you don't know how to read. Look at what Pope Eugene IV said about souls, who die in original sin only, they go straightaway to hell and its ex cathedra, its dogma, what is wrong with you!? You also deny the Council of Trent. You are not even remotely catholic.

Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, “Letentur coeli,” Sess. 6, July 6, 1439, ex cathedra: “We define also that… the souls of those who depart this life in actual mortal sin, or in original sin alone, go straightaway to hell, but to undergo punishments of different kinds.” (Denz. 693)

Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, Session 11, Feb. 4, 1442, ex cathedra: “Regarding children, indeed, because of danger of death, which can often take place, when no help can be brought to them by another remedy than through the sacrament of baptism, through which they are snatched from the domination of the Devil [original sin] and adopted among the sons of God, it advises that holy baptism ought not be deferred for forty or eighty days, or any time according to the observance of certain people…” (Denz. 712)

Pope Martin V, Council of Constance, Session 15, July 6, 1415 – Condemning the articles of John Wyclif – Proposition 6: “Those who claim that the children of the faithful dying without sacramental baptism will not be saved, are stupid and presumptuous in saying this.”- Condemned (Decrees of the Ecumenical Councils, Vol. 1, p. 422.)

Pope Paul III, The Council of Trent, On Original Sin, Session V, ex cathedra: “If anyone says that recently born babies should not be baptized even if they have been born to baptized parents; or says that they are indeed baptized for the remission of sins, but incur no trace of the original sin of Adam needing to be cleansed by the laver of rebirth for them to obtain eternal life, with the necessary consequence that in their case there is being understood a form of baptism for the remission of sins which is not true, but false: let him be anathema.” (Denz. 791)

 

[BreadOfLife]

All unbaptized person go to hell, can't you read!?

Lol! I provide the infallible proof and you say I am ignorant of Catholic teaching!? You are a blind fool. And you don't know how to read. Look at what Pope Eugene IV said about souls, who die in original sin only, they go straightaway to hell and its ex cathedra, its dogma, what is wrong with you!? You also deny the Council of Trent. You are not even remotely catholic.)

And I already proved to you - from the Catechism that you are dead wrong.
the Catholic Church has never definitively taught what happens to unbaptized infants who die.

What's more - the Catholic Church has NEVER taught that "All" unbaptized people go to Hell because there are exceptions.
Apparently, you've never read Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus (Outside the Church There is No Salvation), which states emphatically:

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337

848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338


Finally - I've been a Catholic since I was an infant. I'm a Traditional Catholic. You're a Radical Traditionalist.
Disobedient sede vacantists like yourself are an embarrassment to the Body of Christ.

AGAIN - I suggest you do your homework before embarrassing yourself any further . . .

 

[tabletalk]

Youse guys sound like the Protestants!

 

[truth333]

And I already proved to you - from the Catechism that you are dead wrong.
the Catholic Church has never definitively taught what happens to unbaptized infants who die.

What's more - the Catholic Church has NEVER taught that "All" unbaptized people go to Hell because there are exceptions.
Apparently, you've never read Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus (Outside the Church There is No Salvation), which states emphatically:

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337

Finally - I've been a Catholic since I was an infant.
AGAIN - I suggest you do your homework before embarrassing yourself any further . . .

This is what I mean about obstinate persons, they deserved to be rebuked, handedly. This guy rejects Divine teachings of God [dogmas] in favor of the fallible teaching of men. Furthermore, this guy mocks God by saying that God commands impossibilities. God knows all things, He knows who are good willed and who is not. This guy mocks the intercessory miracle of the good willed Ethiopian Eunuch. Acts 8:26-39

There is no such thing as invincible ignorance!! St. Paul even confirms this point.

2 Corinthians 4:2- But we renounce the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor adulterating the word of God; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience, in the sight of God. And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

Fr. Francisco de Vitoria, O.P., a famous 16th century Dominican theologian, summed up the traditional teaching of the Catholic Church on this topic very well. Here is how he put it:

“When we postulate invincible ignorance on the subject of baptism or of the Christian faith, it does not follow that a person can be saved without baptism or the Christian faith. For the aborigines to whom no preaching of the faith or Christian religion has come will be damned for mortal sins or for idolatry, but not for the sin of unbelief. As St. Thomas says, however, if they do what in them lies [in their power], accompanied by a good life according to the law of nature, it is consistent with God’s providence that he will illuminate them regarding the name of Christ.”

All the people who die in cultures which have never been penetrated by the Gospel go to Hell for sins against the natural law and the other grave sins which they commit – which bad will and failure to cooperate with God’s grace is the reason He does not reveal the Gospel to them. The First Vatican Council defined infallibly, based on Romans 1, that the one true God can be known with certitude by the things which have been made, and by the natural light of human reason.

“When we postulate invincible ignorance on the subject of baptism or of the Christian faith, it does not follow that a person can be saved without baptism or the Christian faith. For the aborigines to whom no preaching of the faith or Christian religion has come will be damned for mortal sins or for idolatry, but not for the sin of unbelief. As St. Thomas says, however, if they do what in them lies [in their power], accompanied by a good life according to the law of nature, it is consistent with God’s providence that he will illuminate them regarding the name of Christ.”

All the people who die in cultures which have never been penetrated by the Gospel go to Hell for sins against the natural law and the other grave sins which they commit – which bad will and failure to cooperate with God’s grace is the reason He does not reveal the Gospel to them. The First Vatican Council defined infallibly, based on Romans 1, that the one true God can be known with certitude by the things which have been made, and by the natural light of human reason.

Romans 2:14-15 For when the Gentiles, who have not the law, do by nature those things that are of the law; these having not the law are a law to themselves: Who shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness to them, and their thoughts between themselves accusing, or also defending one another,

Romans 1:18-20: “For the wrath of God is revealed from Heaven against all ungodliness and injustice of those men that detain the truth of God in injustice: Because that which is known of God is manifest in them. For God hath manifested it to them. For the invisible things of him, from the creation of the world, are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made; his eternal power also, and divinity: so that they are inexcusable.”

Everyone can know with certainty that there is a supreme spiritual being, Who is the One True God and the Creator of the world and all that it contains. Everyone knows that God is not something that they have carved out of wood or jade or stone. They know that God is not the tree that they worship or the river they worship or the rock or the snake or the sacred tree frog. They know that these things aren’t the Creator of the universe. Every such person knows that he is worshipping a creature rather than the Creator. They are, as St. Paul says in verse 20, without excuse. St. Augustine explains this well in reference to persons who died ignorant of the Faith and without baptism.

St. Augustine (+428): “… God foreknew that if they had lived and the gospel had been preached to them, they would have heard it without belief.”

John 18:37: “For this was I born, and for this came I into the world, that I should give testimony to the truth: every one who is of the truth, heareth my voice.”

Pope Pius XI, Quas Primas (# 15), Dec. 11, 1925 : “Indeed this kingdom is presented in the Gospels as such, into which men prepare to enter by doing penance; moreover, they cannot enter it except through faith and baptism, which, although an external rite, yet signifies and effects an interior regeneration.”

St. Augustine (+426): “Consequently both those who have not heard the gospel and those who, having heard it, and having been changed for the better, did not receive perseverance… none of these are separated from that lump which is known to be damned, as all are going… into condemnation.”

St. Prosper of Aquitane (+450): “Certainly God’s manifold and indescribable goodness, as we have abundantly proved, always provided and does yet provide for the totality of mankind, so that none of those perishing can plead the excuse that he was excluded from the light of truth…”

Romans 8:29-30 “For whom He foreknew, he also predestinated to be made conformable to the image of his Son: that he might be the first-born amongst many brethren. And whom he predestinated, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.”

Acts 13:48- “And the Gentiles hearing it, were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were preordained to life everlasting, believed.”

Outside The Church There Is No Salvation | Baptism

 

[BreadOfLife]

This is what I mean about obstinate persons, they deserved to be rebuked, handedly. This guy rejects Divine teachings of God [dogmas] in favor of the fallible teaching of men. Furthermore, this guy mocks God by saying that God commands impossibilities. God knows all things, He knows who are good willed and who is not. This guy mocks the intercessory miracle of the good willed Ethiopian Eunuch. Acts 8:26-39

There is no such thing as invincible ignorance!! St. Paul even confirms this point.

WRONG.
Jesus says there is . . .

John 9:39-41
Then Jesus said, “I came into this world for judgment, so that those who do not see might see, and those who do see might become blind.”
Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but now you are saying, ‘We see,’ so your sin remains.

John 15:22
If I had not come and spoken to them, they would have no sin; but as it is they have no excuse for their sin.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Youse guys sound like the Protestants!

Which Protestant doctrine have I espoused?

 

[Helen]

Which Protestant doctrine have I espoused?

Haha! I think he just means the arguing...

 

[BreadOfLife]

Haha! I think he just means the arguing...

Ahhhh - I was unaware that Protestants argued more than Catholics.

 

[Helen]

Ahhhh - I was unaware that Protestants argued more than Catholics.

You should have been at our house when my dad was still alive...and all the uncles and aunts at Christmas time....I have no doubt they could beat you guys hand down!!
Actually it was lots of fun. lol

 

[truth333]

Ahhhh - I was unaware that Protestants argued more than Catholics.

BOL, you are not catholic though!

 

[Helen]

BOL, you are not catholic though!

WHAT!!!!! Come on now...how come?
He has given his body, soul and time..especially on this Site, to advance the Catholic cause... ( beliefs, as he sees as the truth)
He has always had a very large Catholic presence on The Site. :)

 

[truth333]

WRONG.
Jesus says there is . . .

John 9:39-41
Then Jesus said, “I came into this world for judgment, so that those who do not see might see, and those who do see might become blind.”
Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but now you are saying, ‘We see,’ so your sin remains.

John 15:22
If I had not come and spoken to them, they would have no sin; but as it is they have no excuse for their sin.

BOL, you accuse the protestants of twisting and misusing scripture, what a hypocrite!

[John 15:22] Take notice that Jesus DID SPEAK to them, which means that He gave them the gospel but they rejected the truth. Which means that they are guilty of the sin of unbelief. Which is a sin against the Holy Ghost!!!

Matthew 12:32 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come."

Invincible ignorance is a lie.

2 Corinthians 4:3 And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost,"

BOL, you are busted!

 

[truth333]

WHAT!!!!! Come on now...how come?
He has given his body, soul and time..especially on this Site, to advance the Catholic cause... ( beliefs, as he sees as the truth)
He has always had a very large Catholic presence on The Site. :)

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven."

 

[amadeus]

There is nothing complicated about it. But then again this is why you love being a protester because it give you complete freedom to do what ever you want, you know, once saved always saved.

Do you really believe that everyone who is not Catholic is a protester against Catholicism?

As two of the other Catholic yea sayers on this forum have shown, [or at least seem to believe] most of the rest of us here know little about the details of formal Catholicism, their brand or yours. Have you met @twinc yet? He may be closer to you than the other two. He doesn't seem to like a lot of the changes implemented by Vatican II.

Do you believe that non-Catholic followers of Christ somehow have more freedom than you do to disobey God? Remember these words?

"O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps." Jerem 10:23

Those words were true when Jeremiah wrote them and they are true now. There is no real freedom for anyone to do what ever he wants. A man still has only two real choices: God's Way or the ways of the flesh. Man may think he has other choices, but he is usually if not always deceived.

 

[Helen]

@amadeus

 

[amadeus]

Which Protestant doctrine have I espoused?

Likely it is just the splintering that caught her eye!

 

[truth333]

Do you really believe that everyone who is not Catholic is a protester against Catholicism?

As two of the other Catholic yea sayers on this forum have shown, [or at least seem to believe] most of the rest of us here know little about the details of formal Catholicism, their brand or yours. Have you met @twinc yet? He may be closer to you than the other two. He doesn't seem to like a lot of the changes implemented by Vatican II.

Do you believe that non-Catholic followers of Christ somehow have more freedom than you do to disobey God? Remember these words?

"O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps." Jerem 10:23

Those words were true when Jeremiah wrote them and they are true now. There is no real freedom for anyone to do what ever he wants. A man still has only two real choices: God's Way or the ways of the flesh. Man may think he has other choices, but he is usually if not always deceived.

I am completely aware of the old testament and the new testament, regarding continuity and symmetry.

“The New is in the Old Concealed, the Old is in the New Revealed”

The KJV actually proves the teachings of the catholic church. As just one example, here.

The Bible Proves The Papacy

If you would like, I would debate you regarding the papacy.

 

[truth333]

Grace you seem to be a wagon jumper!? LoL!

 

[Helen]

Grace you seem to be a wagon jumper!? LoL!

Doesn't it say Somewhere... " Being all things to all men." LOL

You have a good one...bless you ...H