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Tong2020

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Tong2020 said:
It is the very intention of God, that His people be perfect and holy. That’s the reason why He sent Christ.
Yes, but Christ didn't provide an atonement for our sins to make us *immediately* perfect, did he? You shouldn't confuse this. Perfection will come in the resurrection, and not before. As Paul said, "not that I'm already made perfect." The Apostle John said,
"If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us."

Yes Christ did not. Atonement is different from sanctification and perfection. Sanctification and perfection, while are with Christ, a finished work, with the Christians, it is an unfolding reality, so to speak.

Tong2020 said:
So, in other words and simple words, by real righteousness you mean faith + works?
Real Faith requires that Faith display Works, yes. True Faith displays Good Deeds. That's what James said, "faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead."

The genuineness of faith lies in the heart of man. It is shown through good works, that of a living faith. Not for God to see, but for people to see, that testifies to them of the goodness and work of God in him and through him, and of the righteousness of God. Nonetheless, it’s faith, not work.

Tong2020 said:
<<<Yes, even people who reject Jesus can do good unwittingly through Jesus. But rejecting the Holy Spirit a person cannot do good.>>>

Isn’t rejecting Jesus tantamount to rejecting the Holy Spirit?
No.
Matt 12.32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

Jesus recognized that some in Israel would not immediately accept his claims because there is a process to putting our faith in him. There are distractions, deceptions, and setbacks. Jesus is patient, and accepts rejection without immediate condemnation. That's what the cross was all about, experiencing rejection ands still be willing to forgive.
If one rejects Jesus, he rejects the gift of the Holy Spirit, for God gives the gift of the Holy Spirit to dwell in those who believes in Jesus Christ.

However, rejecting Jesus Christ is different from the sin of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

As a side, why is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit without forgiveness? What are your thoughts on that?

Tong
R1870
 

Randy Kluth

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Yes Christ did not. Atonement is different from sanctification and perfection. Sanctification and perfection, while are with Christ, a finished work, with the Christians, it is an unfolding reality, so to speak.

Agreed.

The genuineness of faith lies in the heart of man. It is shown through good works, that of a living faith. Not for God to see, but for people to see, that testifies to them of the goodness and work of God in him and through him, and of the righteousness of God. Nonetheless, it’s faith, not work.

I have no reason to believe God is less concerned with our "works of faith" than men, who witness them? We are in disagreement because we utilize different definitions of the word "works."

Again, this has been my whole argument. We cannot integrate all of these biblical facts unless we understand how Paul is using the word "works" in context. He is using the word "works" as an abbreviation for "works that justify apart from Christ," or "works that retain the condemnation of sin, prohibiting the inheritance of eternal life."

Work, following pardon, is an essential part of faith. Indeed, faith is the very "work" that obtains pardon, although it is a different kind of "work" that Paul is referring to, because it relies upon the righteousness of God and upon the mercy of God for that pardon.

Faith pleases God precisely because it is not self-autonomous and independent of God. On the contrary, it relies upon God and responds positively to God. It acts in good faith upon God's propositions. It responds to God's word by *doing* that word, by obeying that word.

If one rejects Jesus, he rejects the gift of the Holy Spirit, for God gives the gift of the Holy Spirit to dwell in those who believes in Jesus Christ.

No, that's the opposite of what Jesus said. He said men can reject him without rejecting the gift of the Holy Spirit. But I agree that some who reject Jesus are in fact rejecting the Holy Spirit as well. That also was what Jesus was saying. The difference is a matter of discernment. Is Jesus being rejected from the heart, or only out of duress?

The temptations of Adam and Eve were instigated by Satan, and thus, man's decision against God's word was made under duress. This provides a basis for God's patience and for His forgiveness, if man is willing to recover his sensibilities and make the right decisions in the end.

However, rejecting Jesus Christ is different from the sin of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

As a side, why is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit without forgiveness? What are your thoughts on that?

Tong
R1870

That's what I was answering above. I hope it helps?
 

Randy Kluth

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Of course you have read scriptures pertaining to that. God tested Abraham and told him to offer Isaac to Him by a burnt offering. It was clear to Abraham that it was God who told him to do that. But what I want you to look at is the commandment of God. It involves the sacrificing of one’s son to pass through the fire as a burnt offering to Him, something the pagans do in worshiping their gods and which God abhors. What can you say about that?

There is no such command. God never had Israel kill their children except when He turned them over to their own independent ways, and gave them up to their enemies.

<<<No, faith is not just "belief in" something, but more, acceptance of the terms of a relationship between God and Man.>>>

That’s then adding to faith, if not, redefining faith. Faith is given by God, a gift. When God justified Abraham, it is not because of anything else, but on account of faith, his sincere, complete and full trust and total dependence in God. We can see that in Gen. 15, when God justified him. There were no terms. The relationship came about through faith and after faith.

Actually, the biblical account indicates that the expression of Abraham's faith was predicated upon a covenant relationship. God made a covenant with Abraham in Gen 12, and described him as righteous by faith in Gen 15. The thing Abraham believed God for involved the multiplication of his faith among many heirs of that faith. It was belief in God's righteousness that made Abraham himself righteous. And his righteousness was displayed in his works, and in his obedience to God's word, such as in the offering up of his son Isaac and in his righteous behavior among men.

Abraham was righteous for all these reasons, and not just because of faith. Paul was talking about Abraham's faith preceding the works associated with the Law of Moses, which had not come yet. And the part of the Law that existed at that time, namely circumcision, was also excluded from this righteousness by faith, because it was excluding entirely anything associated with a Law that did not permanently atone for sin. The purpose was to show that Abraham's faith was designed to ultimately transcend the Law and its curse through the future atonement of Christ.

So, I can see that you do take atonement as not different or the same as forgiveness of sin.

For me, atonement is different from forgiveness of sin. By atonement, it means to provide a covering of our uncleanness and wickedness, that appease God, which if such is acceptable to God, will hold his wrath from coming upon us. And Jesus Christ’s sacrifice for atonement, the offering of his most holy and precious blood for mankind, was pleasing and acceptable to God.

Now the sacrifice of Christ proves to be more than can atone for the sins of the world, but even was more than sufficient as a sacrifice for the forgiveness of sin, for the people whom God had given to Him to obtain for them mercy unto forgiveness of their sins make them perfect and holy, conformed to His image, even as children of God.

Tong
R1869

I don't see any appreciable difference between your view of "atonement" and mine? Both refer to a covering for our sin, which I call "the forgiveness of sin," or a "pardon?"
 

Randy Kluth

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We just have to agree to disagree concerning the purpose of the law then. You believe it was given for the purpose of preventing Israel from seeking eternal life from any other source, including itself, and lead them to Christ, while I believe that the law was given to keep Israel under guard and bring them to Christ that they might be justified by faith.

These things are not mutually exclusive. Both can be true. The Law prevented Israel from seeking in their animal sacrifices final atonement, and it led them to Christ by keeping them holy and in relationship with God in the meantime.

<<<It was not meant to be the atonement that provided Eternal Life. But it was indeed intended to be a step in the direction of that atonement, which was provided only by Christ>>>

I don’t regard the law like so. I regard the Law as a shadow of the realities that will later be revealed, and were already revealed, in Jesus Christ’s person, life, works, death, resurrection and ascension.

How can the Law "already reveal" Christ if he had yet to be revealed? I agree the Law contained foreshadowings of Christ, conceptually. For example, the animal sacrifices indicated an immediate need for atonement in order to sustain a relationship with God. But it was not immediately understood that Christ would provide, in his death, a final atonement for sin.

Paul said v.22 and v.23, the time context being before Christ ~ that all were locked up or imprisoned or confined by Scriptures under sin. And that the law that was given to Israel, was not to keep them locked up under sin, as they already were even before the law was given, but to keep them under guard and bring them to Christ (who can save them, free them from sin, condemnation , and death) that they might be justified. So now, those who have faith in Christ, not only were they justified, but also were freed from being locked up under sin.

Yes, we absolutely disagree on this. I believe Paul was explaining how the Scriptures used the Law to keep Israel "locked up" under the condemnation of sin until Christ's final atonement could be made.

<<<Yes, the Scriptures, apart from the Law, also locked men up in the OT era,...>>>

And that’s my point. It is the scriptures that Paul said locked up all under sin. For even without the law people were already locked up under sin. That the law was given to lock Israel up under sin would be senseless as they were already locked up.

And my point is that the Law was part of those Scriptures that "locked men up" in the OT era, because final atonement for their sins had not yet been made by Christ. The Law, in other words, was not separate from this testimony by the Scriptures to "lock men up."

On the contrary, Paul was declaring that the Law was the final word on this Scriptural condemnation upon mankind when they existed without Christ's atonement. It was a statement that apart from Christ's atonement all of mankind would be lost.
 

Tong2020

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Tong2020 said:
What you say your argument is there is a different argument. I agree that faith produces good works. But it does not necessarily follow that for it to be genuine, that it must produce work. Let me show you by asking, do you believe that God created the earth and heavens? That is faith. Is it genuine? If you believe in your heart, without question, without a doubt, with full confidence and trust, then it should be genuine.
That sounds silly! Believing that someone did something doesn't make the thing happen! Believing is accepting that something did happen if indeed it did happen.


Believing for justification is much different from this. It is believing in a way that brings pardon. We don't just believe that Christ provided the pardon. More, we believe that in meeting the conditions of the pardon we will be pardoned.

For example, if after breaking off from God He approaches me later and says I can begin to serve Him again, I can either accept or reject the deal. By accepting the deal I believe in the offer in such a way that I choose to abide by the deal.

It is not just in believing God offered me something that justifies me. Rather, it is in meeting the conditions of the deal that indicates I not only believed the deal existed, but that if I respond to it the deal will prove to be true.
<<<That sounds silly! Believing that someone did something doesn't make the thing happen! Believing is accepting that something did happen if indeed it did happen.>>>

So, how and why did you believe that God created the heavens and the earth?

I was showing by that, that faith, for it to be genuine, that it does not necessarily follow that it must produce work. To believe that God created the heavens and the earth is faith and such faith does not need to produce work to be genuine. But it seems I am not getting that point across by that.

Here’s that came to mind. Consider the thief on the cross, crucified together with Jesus at Calvary. He believed in Jesus Christ. Was his faith genuine or not? Based on what Jesus told him, I believe his faith was genuine. Was there work involved in his faith? I see none. If none, does it mean his faith was not genuine? Not necessarily so, isn’t it?

Tong2020 said:
Going back to your other argument, you said that faith is work. I said faith is not work. For faith is given by God, a gift.

My statement indicates that faith is an act, and as such, is a kind of work. And my statement also indicates that the attitude of faith also includes physical acts of obedience, which are works of faith.

When God speaks to us, in our inner conscience, we have a choice to make. We either respond positively to that word, or we reject it. By choosing to accept it we make a decision and do a good deed. That is the basis of our justification, that we respond in obedience to Christ's offer of atonement--not just believe that it happened!

We are justified not because our Works are perfect--they are not. They are not perfect even after we become a Christian. Rather, we are justified because we accept that our Works before God rely upon God and upon His mercy. He becomes the source of both our righteousness and our pardon. This is the basis of our justification, that we rely upon him, which only became grounds for receiving Eternal Life *after* Christ made an atonement for us.

<<<My statement indicates that faith is an act, and as such, is a kind of work.>>>

So it is clear that you take faith as an act, a work then, a kind of work. We just then have to agree to disagree. For you, faith is work, and on the other hand, I take faith as not work and different from work. For me, faith is of the spirit, or spiritual. It is similar to love and hope, in nature, that is, of the spirit or spiritual. And they aren’t works.

If faith is work and faith comes from and is given by God, what becomes of faith? Whose work is it? If one believes, whose work is it?

Tong
R1871
 
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Tong2020

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Tong2020 said:
You said here that faith must produce work. You have just by that have shown that faith is not work. You said faith must include work. You again by that have proven that faith is not work.

There is no contradiction in how I'm describing "faith" as a work. You are using your own biblical definition of "faith" to try to contradict my sense of Faith as a "work." Paul means "Works of the Law" when he refers to Works that cannot justify.

"Works," therefore, is an abbreviated term for a "flawed human record that includes sin." But to exclude Deeds from Faith is impossible. To just have faith in God's Word is in itself a Deed.
I am sorry, but I will stick with my take of faith, that it is not work, but has the power to do works I call works of faith.

Tong2020 said:
<<<These are 2 kinds of justification. One kind atoned for our sins. The other kind is a validation of what Christ did for us by putting his salvation into effect in our lives. >>>

Atonement is not justification, more so a kind of justification. And so with that other kind you say.

Wrong. Atonement is for the purpose of justifying, or rendering one's works innocent of wrong doing. Validating one's righteousness is a matter of checking to see if one's works were done in Christ or not, by faith or not. Temporary righteousness took place before Christ. Eternal righteousness takes place after Christ has come and made his atonement.
I disagree. Atonement is not justification nor for the purpose of justification. It is a covering for wrong doing that intends to appease an offended God from not having His wrath come upon the offender.

Tong2020 said:
<<<The works that result from receiving Christ are works of faith.>>>

Not necessarily. There are works of Christians that are not works of faith.

Goes without saying, Tong!
Well,....

Tong2020 said:
<<<We must have both faith and works if we are truly receiving salvation.>>>

We are justified and saved by grace, through faith, not through works, nor through faith and works. If one have faith, he could do works of faith. However, he is not saved by his work, but by his faith.

We're now back at the beginning of a circle. You are arguing that Faith must not include Works because Works don't justify--faith does. But I just said that true Faith is in itself a kind of Work, and as such, Faith must produce Works to be real Works.

Even if the record of our Works cannot justify because they reveal that we have sinned, Faith still must include Works to be real. We just need an atoning sacrifice to rely on as our model for our Works--otherwise they do not eternally justify.

Faith is a different kind of "Work" than the "Works of the Law" you speak of, which cannot obtain *eternal justification.* This does not, in the least, mean that faith that produces works did not justify Abraham before the Law came into existence. Abraham was justified before the Law came into existence precisely because his works were based upon dependence upon God for mercy, for a pardon for his sins.
I am not arguing at all that faith must not include works. Rather that salvation is through faith, not through works, and that faith is not work and work is not faith.

Tong2020 said:
As I argued that, that was not really the purpose of God as to why He added the law and gave it to Israel. The contention that God’s purpose with the law is to make them righteous by the law, would render God as having failed in such, and runs contrary to sending the Savior. God would not give the law for that purpose, for He knows Israel and all man for that matter, for He knows it would be a failure.

You are in a semantics quagmire, as so much theology is! The Law was given to make Israel righteous, but still dependent on a future atonement through Christ. So it allowed them to do right, but not yet to have eternal life.
If you insist, but I respectfully disagree for the reasons I’ve been saying.

Tong2020 said:
What I am saying is that while doing the works of the law is righteous, it was simply just not why the law was given by God, for God knows man, that every intents of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually, even from childhood (Gen.6:5; 8:21).

You are just taking snippets from the Bible and trying to put them together to come up with a collage. This is not systematic theology. Your pieces do not fit together. The Law was either to make Israel righteous or not. It either justified them or not. It was either eternal justification or not.
Of course you will say that. But if my view is the same as yours, perhaps you’ll say that they fit and is systematic.

We’ve said our arguments and we don’t arrive at an agreement. So, we just then have to agree to disagree at this point and let the Holy Spirit work in us on this matter.

Tong
R1872
 

Randy Kluth

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I am sorry, but I will stick with my take of faith, that it is not work, but has the power to do works I call works of faith.

That's not very different from what I'm saying. Since faith involves obedience and deeds, it is, in a sense, a "work." It just is not a work in the sense that Paul is using the word, as a means of justification. Due to our record of sin, our works cannot obtain eternal life apart from the atonement of Christ.

I disagree. Atonement is not justification nor for the purpose of justification. It is a covering for wrong doing that intends to appease an offended God from not having His wrath come upon the offender.

What you're describing is a form of "justification," which you deny is part of atonement.

We’ve said our arguments and we don’t arrive at an agreement. So, we just then have to agree to disagree at this point and let the Holy Spirit work in us on this matter.

Tong
R1872

Amen!
 

Randy Kluth

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So, how and why did you believe that God created the heavens and the earth?

That's another subject. I don't want to confuse the issue. Faith is the ability to transcend current limitations. Abraham used faith to believe in God for things he didn't deserve. God considered that just because it is the very basis by which we obtain forgiveness.

Here’s that came to mind. Consider the thief on the cross, crucified together with Jesus at Calvary. He believed in Jesus Christ. Was his faith genuine or not? Based on what Jesus told him, I believe his faith was genuine. Was there work involved in his faith? I see none. If none, does it mean his faith was not genuine? Not necessarily so, isn’t it?

John 6.29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

You say that "work" is not "faith." But in this quote, Jesus says that "work" is, in fact, "faith!" Genuine faith produces deeds. I showed you that James claims this. You just refuse to believe it!

James 2.14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them?

Genuine faith, therefore, contains, of necessity, good deeds, or good works. But you would contradict James?

So it is clear that you take faith as an act, a work then, a kind of work. We just then have to agree to disagree. For you, faith is work, and on the other hand, I take faith as not work and different from work. For me, faith is of the spirit, or spiritual. It is similar to love and hope, in nature, that is, of the spirit or spiritual. And they aren’t works.

If faith is work and faith comes from and is given by God, what becomes of faith? Whose work is it? If one believes, whose work is it?

Tong
R1871

Man works with the pardon that God gives. We work by having access to God's Spirit and righteousness. We put His righteousness into use. We take the works of Christ, by which he atoned for our sins, and utilize his righteousness to prove that our faith is genuine by doing good deeds.

If you want to continue opposing my views, you need to answer James 2.14 and John 6.29. You have not and cannot do so. And that's because you reject the idea that Paul uses shortcuts to express larger concepts in fewer words. His view of "works" and "faith" have a context. And you try to apply a narrow definition of these words in all contexts. That doesn't work, nor is it even reasonable.

But yes, we can agree to disagree. Thanks for the time.
 

Tong2020

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Tong2020 said:
The genuineness of faith lies in the heart of man. It is shown through good works, that of a living faith. Not for God to see, but for people to see, that testifies to them of the goodness and work of God in him and through him, and of the righteousness of God. Nonetheless, it’s faith, not work.
I have no reason to believe God is less concerned with our "works of faith" than men, who witness them? We are in disagreement because we utilize different definitions of the word "works."

Again, this has been my whole argument. We cannot integrate all of these biblical facts unless we understand how Paul is using the word "works" in context. He is using the word "works" as an abbreviation for "works that justify apart from Christ," or "works that retain the condemnation of sin, prohibiting the inheritance of eternal life."

Work, following pardon, is an essential part of faith. Indeed, faith is the very "work" that obtains pardon, although it is a different kind of "work" that Paul is referring to, because it relies upon the righteousness of God and upon the mercy of God for that pardon.

Faith pleases God precisely because it is not self-autonomous and independent of God. On the contrary, it relies upon God and responds positively to God. It acts in good faith upon God's propositions. It responds to God's word by *doing* that word, by obeying that word.
<<<I have no reason to believe God is less concerned with our "works of faith" than men, who witness them? >>>

Not that God is less concerned, but because God is all knowing. He knows our heart, while man does not.

<<<We are in disagreement because we utilize different definitions of the word "works.">>>

Perhaps. Should we not here give our take on what work is?

Tong2020 said:
If one rejects Jesus, he rejects the gift of the Holy Spirit, for God gives the gift of the Holy Spirit to dwell in those who believes in Jesus Christ.
No, that's the opposite of what Jesus said. He said men can reject him without rejecting the gift of the Holy Spirit. But I agree that some who reject Jesus are in fact rejecting the Holy Spirit as well. That also was what Jesus was saying. The difference is a matter of discernment. Is Jesus being rejected from the heart, or only out of duress?

The temptations of Adam and Eve were instigated by Satan, and thus, man's decision against God's word was made under duress. This provides a basis for God's patience and for His forgiveness, if man is willing to recover his sensibilities and make the right decisions in the end.
<<<No, that's the opposite of what Jesus said............ That also was what Jesus was saying. >>>

Now you got me confused.

<<<He said men can reject him without rejecting the gift of the Holy Spirit.>>>

Please cite relevant scriptures.

But what does that make of what scriptures say that the gift of the Holy Spirit will be given to those who believe?

<<<Is Jesus being rejected from the heart, or only out of duress?>>>

Why, would you reject him out of duress?

Tong2020 said:
However, rejecting Jesus Christ is different from the sin of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

As a side, why is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit without forgiveness? What are your thoughts on that?
That's what I was answering above. I hope it helps?
I did not quite get that.

Tong
R1874
 

Randy Kluth

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Perhaps. Should we not here give our take on what work is?

That has been my burden from the start. Paul is using "works" as an abbreviation for "works of the Law," or "autonomous works, separate from the atonement of Christ."

Now you got me confused.
Please cite relevant scriptures.
But what does that make of what scriptures say that the gift of the Holy Spirit will be given to those who believe?
Why, would you reject him out of duress?
I did not quite get that.

Tong
R1874

I'll try to say it using different words. Adam and Eve did not abandon God with eyes wide open. They were deceived. Temptation was the "duress" they were under when they made the decision to act apart from God's word. And because they acted "under duress," God gave mankind a 2nd chance.

Jesus said in the Scriptures that men would reject him, but not necessarily the Holy Spirit. Before men come to Christ they are under all kinds of illusions about what Christ represented, and Christ granted them time to make mistakes and reject him for the wrong reasons.

When men, however, finally accept Christ, they do so knowing who he really is, and therefore receive the Holy Spirit. Some men, however, reject not just Jesus but also the Holy Spirit. They receive a true witness of who Christ is, and don't want him. And so, they reject both Jesus and the Holy Spirit.

When men come to that point and do things like call Jesus demon possessed, they have crossed a line and commit the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. Rejecting Jesus after knowing who he really is and what he really represents there is nothing more that Jesus can offer them. They will never get saved.
 

justbyfaith

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There is a strange belief on the part of many that the great God-written law of the Ten Commandments was actually a part of the ceremonial law of Moses which contained scores of specific regulations. They do not see the decalogue as being distinct and totally unique because of its divine authorship. Neither do they see the clear limitation which the Bible sets for this moral code by calling it the TEN Commandments.

It seems quite obvious that one would effectively do away with the “Ten Commandments” by mingling them with ninety or a hundred others and calling them “ordinances” instead of commandments. Such a radical effort has been made to dilute the force of the only words of the Bible which God wrote with His own hand. Furthermore, the claim has been advanced that since the Ten Commandments were a part of the mosaic law of ordinances which ended at the cross, we are no more obligated to obey the decalogue than we are to offer lambs in sacrifice.

Is there proof positive in the Scriptures that there was no such blending of the ceremonial and moral law into one? Can it be shown that the Ten Commandments were of a permanent, perpetual nature while the ceremonial law of statutes and ordinances came to an end when Jesus died? Indeed there is abundance of evidence to answer these questions with a resounding yes!

God made known this distinction to His servant Moses, and Moses explained it to the people at Mt. Horeb. “And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone. And the Lord commanded me at that time to teach you statutes and judgments, that ye might do them in the land whither ye go over to possess it” (Deuteronomy 4:13, 14).

Please notice how Moses clearly separated the Ten Commandments, which “he commanded you,” from the statutes which “he commanded me” to give the people. The big question now is whether those statutes and judgments, which Moses passed on to the people, were designated as a separate and distinct “law.”

God answers that important question in such a way that no doubt can remain. “Neither will I make the feet of Israel move any more out of the land which I gave their fathers; only if they will observe to do according to all that I have commanded them and according to all the law that my servant Moses commanded them” (2 Kings 21:8). Here we are assured that the statutes which Moses gave the people were called a “law.” Any child can discern that two different laws are being described. God speaks of the law “I commanded” and also the “law ... Moses commanded.” Unless this truth is understood properly, limitless confusion will result.

In regards to the OP (quoted above):

It should be clear in Matthew 5:17-20 and in Colossians 3:10 that all 613 laws are binding on the person who is under the law.
 

Tong2020

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Tong2020 said:
Of course you have read scriptures pertaining to that. God tested Abraham and told him to offer Isaac to Him by a burnt offering. It was clear to Abraham that it was God who told him to do that. But what I want you to look at is the commandment of God. It involves the sacrificing of one’s son to pass through the fire as a burnt offering to Him, something the pagans do in worshiping their gods and which God abhors. What can you say about that?
There is no such command. God never had Israel kill their children except when He turned them over to their own independent ways, and gave them up to their enemies.
There was Randy, not to Israel but to Abraham. God commanded Abraham to offer Isaac to Him as a burnt offering (Gen. 22:2). So, look at that commandment. What can you say about the matter that it involves the sacrificing of one’s son to pass through the fire as a burnt offering to Him, something the pagans do in worshiping their gods and which God abhors?

Tong2020 said:
<<<No, faith is not just "belief in" something, but more, acceptance of the terms of a relationship between God and Man.>>>

That’s then adding to faith, if not, redefining faith. Faith is given by God, a gift. When God justified Abraham, it is not because of anything else, but on account of faith, his sincere, complete and full trust and total dependence in God. We can see that in Gen. 15, when God justified him. There were no terms. The relationship came about through faith and after faith.
Actually, the biblical account indicates that the expression of Abraham's faith was predicated upon a covenant relationship. God made a covenant with Abraham in Gen 12, and described him as righteous by faith in Gen 15. The thing Abraham believed God for involved the multiplication of his faith among many heirs of that faith. It was belief in God's righteousness that made Abraham himself righteous. And his righteousness was displayed in his works, and in his obedience to God's word, such as in the offering up of his son Isaac and in his righteous behavior among men.

Abraham was righteous for all these reasons, and not just because of faith. Paul was talking about Abraham's faith preceding the works associated with the Law of Moses, which had not come yet. And the part of the Law that existed at that time, namely circumcision, was also excluded from this righteousness by faith, because it was excluding entirely anything associated with a Law that did not permanently atone for sin. The purpose was to show that Abraham's faith was designed to ultimately transcend the Law and its curse through the future atonement of Christ.
And....what scriptures in Gen.15:6 says clearly “And he believed in the LORD, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.” ~ it is faith and really nothing else. And we have learned what faith he have, for his works have shown it. Not only that, God even put him to the test and passed the test. Not concerning his work, but his faith.

Tong2020 said:
So, I can see that you do take atonement as not different or the same as forgiveness of sin.

For me, atonement is different from forgiveness of sin. By atonement, it means to provide a covering of our uncleanness and wickedness, that appease God, which if such is acceptable to God, will hold his wrath from coming upon us. And Jesus Christ’s sacrifice for atonement, the offering of his most holy and precious blood for mankind, was pleasing and acceptable to God.

Now the sacrifice of Christ proves to be more than can atone for the sins of the world, but even was more than sufficient as a sacrifice for the forgiveness of sin, for the people whom God had given to Him to obtain for them mercy unto forgiveness of their sins make them perfect and holy, conformed to His image, even as children of God.
I don't see any appreciable difference between your view of "atonement" and mine? Both refer to a covering for our sin, which I call "the forgiveness of sin," or a "pardon?"

Well, if you see no appreciable difference between atonement and forgiveness of sin....

Tong
R1879
 

Tong2020

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Tong2020 said:
We just have to agree to disagree concerning the purpose of the law then. You believe it was given for the purpose of preventing Israel from seeking eternal life from any other source, including itself, and lead them to Christ, while I believe that the law was given to keep Israel under guard and bring them to Christ that they might be justified by faith.
These things are not mutually exclusive. Both can be true. The Law prevented Israel from seeking in their animal sacrifices final atonement, and it led them to Christ by keeping them holy and in relationship with God in the meantime.
Where they prevented from seeking in their animal sacrifices final atonement? Where they led to Christ?

Tong2020 said:
<<<It was not meant to be the atonement that provided Eternal Life. But it was indeed intended to be a step in the direction of that atonement, which was provided only by Christ>>>

I don’t regard the law like so. I regard the Law as a shadow of the realities that will later be revealed, and were already revealed, in Jesus Christ’s person, life, works, death, resurrection and ascension.
How can the Law "already reveal" Christ if he had yet to be revealed? I agree the Law contained foreshadowings of Christ, conceptually. For example, the animal sacrifices indicated an immediate need for atonement in order to sustain a relationship with God. But it was not immediately understood that Christ would provide, in his death, a final atonement for sin.
Yes, Israel, the law being a shadow, could not see clearly what it foreshadows. So that, God did not fail to send them word about Him. Moses knew of the Messiah and preached Him to Israel. God sent His word about the Messiah to them. They knew of a promised Messiah who will be their Savior. Why is that? Where would that be coming from? But why they knew differently of the Messiah is another matter.

Tong2020 said:
Paul said v.22 and v.23, the time context being before Christ ~ that all were locked up or imprisoned or confined by Scriptures under sin. And that the law that was given to Israel, was not to keep them locked up under sin, as they already were even before the law was given, but to keep them under guard and bring them to Christ (who can save them, free them from sin, condemnation , and death) that they might be justified. So now, those who have faith in Christ, not only were they justified, but also were freed from being locked up under sin.
Yes, we absolutely disagree on this. I believe Paul was explaining how the Scriptures used the Law to keep Israel "locked up" under the condemnation of sin until Christ's final atonement could be made.
Firstly, the lock up was not under the condemnation of sin, but under sin, that is, under the control of sin. For sin does not condemn but brings one unto judgment and condemnation. It is God who condemns the sinner through His word, to which Paul refers to when he refers to Scriptures. Now before even the law, that is, the law of Moses, was given, all mankind were locked up under sin ~ under the control of sin. Wickedness was all over the earth, so wicked even that God destroyed them all saved Noah and his family of 7 at that time. It was no different after that, for according to God, every intents of the thoughts of the heart of man was continually evil, even from childhood. Then came the time of Moses, and in line with the covenant He made with Abraham, God now, from among the peoples of the earth, have chosen the children of Israel, to make them His people, a holy nation and a kingdom of priests. So that He made a covenant with them to which He added a codified body of laws, the Law of Moses, to keep them under guard, because of transgressions, and bring them to the Messiah, that they might be justified by faith, and be freed from their being locked up under sin ~ under the control of sin. So, it could not be that God, by the law, locked them up again, as they were already locked up before He had made a covenant with them.

Tong2020 said:
<<<Yes, the Scriptures, apart from the Law, also locked men up in the OT era,...>>>

And that’s my point. It is the scriptures that Paul said locked up all under sin. For even without the law people were already locked up under sin. That the law was given to lock Israel up under sin would be senseless as they were already locked up.
And my point is that the Law was part of those Scriptures that "locked men up" in the OT era, because final atonement for their sins had not yet been made by Christ. The Law, in other words, was not separate from this testimony by the Scriptures to "lock men up."

On the contrary, Paul was declaring that the Law was the final word on this Scriptural condemnation upon mankind when they existed without Christ's atonement. It was a statement that apart from Christ's atonement all of mankind would be lost.
As I have pointed out, the lock up is not under the condemnation of sin but under the control of sin. I have explained that in the segment above.

Tong
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Tong2020

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Tong2020 said:
I am sorry, but I will stick with my take of faith, that it is not work, but has the power to do works I call works of faith.
That's not very different from what I'm saying. Since faith involves obedience and deeds, it is, in a sense, a "work." It just is not a work in the sense that Paul is using the word, as a means of justification. Due to our record of sin, our works cannot obtain eternal life apart from the atonement of Christ.
Again, for me, faith is not work, as love and hope are. It is spirit, as love and hope are.

Tong2020 said:
I disagree. Atonement is not justification nor for the purpose of justification. It is a covering for wrong doing that intends to appease an offended God from not having His wrath come upon the offender.
What you're describing is a form of "justification," which you deny is part of atonement.
I am sorry, because for me, it’s not. Even in the Law, when the priest makes atonement for the people, the people does not get to be justified for their sin, but that the wrath of God does not come upon them, as a consequence of their sin.

Tong
R1881
 

BarneyFife

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In regards to the OP (quoted above):

It should be clear in Matthew 5:17-20 and in Colossians 3:10 that all 613 laws are binding on the person who is under the law.
Well, I hate to break it to you, my friend, but it is not at all clear to about 20,000,000 (and growing more rapidly than any denomination) people.

Also, the number "613" is over-used and fairly meaningless.

613 commandments - Wikipedia - Dissent and difficulties
 

justbyfaith

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Also, the number "613" is over-used and fairly meaningless.
Even if 613 is not the most accurate number, it is traditionally the number that has been shared as being the number of commandments that we are to obey in the Old Testament over and above the ten that were written by the finger of the Lord in stone.

If it is not the literal number it can be related as a representative number that coincides with the scripture that is most often used to relate the truth that we cannot keep the letter of all 613 commandments in the law (Galatians 6:13).
 

Randy Kluth

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Again, for me, faith is not work, as love and hope are. It is spirit, as love and hope are.

Love is spirit, you say? How so? A spirit is an entity, such as "God's spirit" or "our spirit," or "angelic spirits." But faith is an attitude--not a spirit.

I don't see "love" and "hope" as spirits, either, unless you view "love" as God, who is a spirit. All these things consist of our willingness to participate in the virtues of God. They are willful compliance, on our part, with God's word as to how we should live in His image.

Love participates in the benevolence of God. Hope participates in working together with the invisible God, anticipating producing things in the future together with Him. Faith is the choice to accept that we can do more through God, who is greater than who we are alone.

It seems you constantly want to turn truth into a dichotomy between matter and spirit, which sounds an awful lot like Gnosticism or dualistic religion. That's a bad direction to go in. The material world is not evil. God made it good.

I am sorry, because for me, it’s not. Even in the Law, when the priest makes atonement for the people, the people does not get to be justified for their sin, but that the wrath of God does not come upon them, as a consequence of their sin.

Tong
R1881

I beg to differ with you. The whole purpose of atonement under the Law was to make just the sinner, who otherwise would be viewed as unjust. That's what "justify" means, to make a person appear as just.
 

Randy Kluth

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Where they prevented from seeking in their animal sacrifices final atonement? Where they led to Christ?

Yes, that's what I said. The Law showed Israel a poor substitute for Christ so that they would only partly rely on the Law and ultimately rely on Christ. They looked as in a mirror, seeing darkly that they continually needed more and more atoning sacrifices, until Messiah came.

Yes, Israel, the law being a shadow, could not see clearly what it foreshadows. So that, God did not fail to send them word about Him. Moses knew of the Messiah and preached Him to Israel. God sent His word about the Messiah to them. They knew of a promised Messiah who will be their Savior. Why is that? Where would that be coming from? But why they knew differently of the Messiah is another matter.


Firstly, the lock up was not under the condemnation of sin, but under sin, that is, under the control of sin. For sin does not condemn but brings one unto judgment and condemnation. It is God who condemns the sinner through His word, to which Paul refers to when he refers to Scriptures. Now before even the law, that is, the law of Moses, was given, all mankind were locked up under sin ~ under the control of sin. Wickedness was all over the earth, so wicked even that God destroyed them all saved Noah and his family of 7 at that time. It was no different after that, for according to God, every intents of the thoughts of the heart of man was continually evil, even from childhood. Then came the time of Moses, and in line with the covenant He made with Abraham, God now, from among the peoples of the earth, have chosen the children of Israel, to make them His people, a holy nation and a kingdom of priests. So that He made a covenant with them to which He added a codified body of laws, the Law of Moses, to keep them under guard, because of transgressions, and bring them to the Messiah, that they might be justified by faith, and be freed from their being locked up under sin ~ under the control of sin. So, it could not be that God, by the law, locked them up again, as they were already locked up before He had made a covenant with them.

Yes, we don't agree on this. I believe the Law confirmed what you say the Scriptures had been doing previously, namely "locking people up." But you're wrong, as I see it. They were locked up under the "condemnation" of sin, and not under the "control" of sin. To state that men were controlled by sin, and could only be wicked is disproven by the presence of saints before the Law.

As I have pointed out, the lock up is not under the condemnation of sin but under the control of sin. I have explained that in the segment above.

Tong
R1880

Yes, I think this is where you mess up. People were not out of control and hopeless in sin before the Law. The Law confirmed the previous curse of God upon men, indicating they were *condemned to death" as long as they had the Sin Nature. That curse was lifted after Christ rose from the dead, because even though Christians continue to die, they can now rise from the dead and defeat the curse.

The whole deal in having the Spirit of Christ in the NT is the fact the curse of the Law has been lifted. Since we are no longer under the condemnation of sin, we no longer have to offer animal sacrifices as a temporary peace offering. We are free from the requirement to purify ourselves on a temporary basis, and no longer live without final atonement.
 

Randy Kluth

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There was Randy, not to Israel but to Abraham. God commanded Abraham to offer Isaac to Him as a burnt offering (Gen. 22:2). So, look at that commandment. What can you say about the matter that it involves the sacrificing of one’s son to pass through the fire as a burnt offering to Him, something the pagans do in worshiping their gods and which God abhors?

God showed Isaac he sometimes requires sacrifice in our lives because of our Sin Nature. Inasmuch as God did not follow through and require Isaac's death it showed God was *not* like the pagans.

When we do lose someone we love it is due to the tragedy of our living in a sinful world--not because God is like the pagan gods who are blood thirsty and require pacification. The only kind of "pacification" God requires is submission to His will, and not any kind of desire on the part of God to return evil for evil.

That is, God doesn't try to balance accounts. We can never pay for our sins. We must simply submit to His forgiveness. That being said, we still have to submit to His will to have us live out our lives in a sinful world with unavoidable problems.

And....what scriptures in Gen.15:6 says clearly “And he believed in the LORD, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.” ~ it is faith and really nothing else. And we have learned what faith he have, for his works have shown it. Not only that, God even put him to the test and passed the test. Not concerning his work, but his faith.
Well, if you see no appreciable difference between atonement and forgiveness of sin....
Tong
R1879

No, I see no appreciable difference between atonement for sin and the forgiveness of sin. They mean the same thing, except that atonement is the means by which God forgave our sin for all time.

I've already given you my take on "faith for righteousness." Jesus said faith is a work, and we know that faith, then, as a work justifies.

It just is not the kind of work that earns eternal life. Paul spoke against the kind of work that thought it could earn eternal life, which the Jews did under the Law when they rejected Christ.

In that sense, faith is not "works." "Works" is an abbreviation for works that attempt, without Christ, to obtain eternal life by merit.

True faith makes use of Christ's grace to do works of faith. As such, this is a different kind of "work" and does justify for eternal life, because it relies on Christ's atonement for the necessary pardon to have our works accepted. This kind of "work" makes use of Christ's virtues to please him and to have our works follow us into eternity.
 

BarneyFife

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If it is not the literal number it can be related as a representative number that coincides with the scripture that is most often used to relate the truth that we cannot keep the letter of all 613 commandments in the law (Galatians 6:13).
No one here is claiming that we can.

I made an issue of the number because the actual number of positive commands in the Old Testament is closer to 300, and I believe accuracy is pretty important to you. :)