Common ground

[StanJ]

Not so much blown away since I am not a Calvinist advocate... :huh: If I am going to be placed in some sort of category I guess I lean more towards Aminianism....

No, sorry, wasn't suggesting you were Calvinist, but most people don't know Calvin supported this, even though most Baptists are of the Anabaptist persuasion.

 

[lforrest]

No, sorry, wasn't suggesting you were Calvinist, but most people don't know Calvin supported this, even though most Baptists are of the Anabaptist persuasion.

What can I say about Calvin? Nobody's perfect.

 

[StanJ]

What can I say about Calvin? Nobody's perfect.

Totally, but that's my point, most people that are into RT, treat his words as biblical inspiration, even though they're far from that!

 

[Angelina]

Hi Ozspen,
Not sure if we are on the same page but just saying to Stan that my reference to point 6 about salvation and eternal life is only applicable to those who have been forgiven of their sin and washed with the blood of Jesus [believers] although all men have the opportunity be saved because Christs redeeming work on the cross, not all men will choose salvation...

 

[StanJ]

How about the OTHER advocate...the Holy Spirit?

 

[Angelina]

The Holy Spirit is given to those who believe in Jesus by faith as a seal of their redemption, Ephesians 4:30, 2 Corinthians 1:21-22, Ephesians 1:13 ~ A guarantee of our inheritance. 2 Corinthians 1: 22, 2 Corinthians 5:5, Ephesians 1:14

 

[StanJ]

The Holy Spirit is given to those who believe in Jesus by faith as a seal of their redemption, Ephesians 4:30, 2 Corinthians 1:21-22, Ephesians 1:13 ~ A guarantee of our inheritance. 2 Corinthians 1: 22, 2 Corinthians 5:5, Ephesians 1:14

OK, so what is the common ground here? What exactly is Paul telling us in Eph and 2 Cor 1? The 3 refs don't say exactly the same thing, and is this all the Holy Spirit does for us? What about Matt 3:11? Do you see that the redemption is the same as the inheritance?

 

[OzSpen]

Hi Ozspen,
Not sure if we are on the same page but just saying to Stan that my reference to point 6 about salvation and eternal life is only applicable to those who have been forgiven of their sin and washed with the blood of Jesus [believers] although all men have the opportunity be saved because Christs redeeming work on the cross, not all men will choose salvation...

Angelina,

I think I could be close to affirming what you are supporting,
6. Salvation and Eternal life because of the sacrifice of himself on behalf of all who believe in him by faith.

However, I would add that the initiative with salvation is with God and not human beings. God frees the will to believe. 'Arminius believes not so much in free will but in a freed will, one which, though initially bound by sin, has been brought by the prevenient grace of the Spirit of Christ to a point where it can respond freely to the divine call' (Witt in Olson 2006:164).

Oz

Works consulted
Olson, R E 2006. Arminian Theology: Myths and Realities. Downers Grove, Illinois: InterVarsity Press.

 

[StanJ]

However, I would add that the initiative with salvation is with God and not human beings. God frees the will to believe.

I don't know how that would work in light of 2 Peter 3:9? I agree that God draws us, but the choice, once presented with the reality of Jesus, is ours alone.

 

[Angelina]

OK, so what is the common ground here? What exactly is Paul telling us in Eph and 2 Cor 1? The 3 refs don't say exactly the same thing, and is this all the Holy Spirit does for us? What about Matt 3:11? Do you see that the redemption is the same as the inheritance?

Hey Stan, No this is def not all the Holy Spirit does however, I thought we were discussing your comments from post #5 and you have included the Holy Spirit in post #25.

Christ has saved us through his redeeming work on the cross and paid the penalty for our sins. One day we will be fully redeemed but at present we are still in this fleshly tent. The Holy Spirit was given to us as a guarantor until that day arrives. The inheritance we have is eternal life with Christ.

Titus 3
4 But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared,
5 He saved us— not by works of righteousness that we had done, but according to His mercy,
through the washing of regeneration and renewal by the Holy Spirit.
6 He poured out this Spirit on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
7 so that having been justified by His grace, we may become heirs with the hope of eternal life.

Hi Oz,

However, I would add that the initiative with salvation is with God and not human beings. God frees the will to believe. 'Arminius believes not so much in free will but in a freed will, one which, though initially bound by sin, has been brought by the prevenient grace of the Spirit of Christ to a point where it can respond freely to the divine call' (Witt in Olson 2006:164).

I tend to agree with Arminius here. A good example can be found in ~

1 Thessalonians 1
4 For we know, brothers and sisters loved by God, that he has chosen you, 5 because our gospel came to you not simply with words but also with power, with the Holy Spirit and deep conviction. You know how we lived among you for your sake. 6 You became imitators of us and of the Lord, for you welcomed the message in the midst of severe suffering with the joy given by the Holy Spirit.

1 Corinthians 2 says ~
2 When I came to you, brothers, announcing the testimony of God to you, I did not come with brilliance of speech or wisdom. 2 For I didn’t think it was a good idea to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified. 3 I came to you in weakness, in fear, and in much trembling. 4 My speech and my proclamation were not with persuasive words of wisdom but with a powerful demonstration by the Spirit, 5 so that your faith might not be based on men’s wisdom but on God’s power

I believe that preaching the Good News [The Gospel of Salvation] and the presence of the Holy Spirit in the believer, work together divinely in the heart of the hearer which enables him/her to respond accordingly. JMHO

Bless ya!

 

[OzSpen]

Hey Stan, No this is def not all the Holy Spirit does however, I thought we were discussing your comments from post #5 and you have included the Holy Spirit in post #25.

Christ has saved us through his redeeming work on the cross and paid the penalty for our sins. One day we will be fully redeemed but at present we are still in this fleshly tent. The Holy Spirit was given to us as a guarantor until that day arrives. The inheritance we have is eternal life with Christ.

Titus 3
4 But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared,
5 He saved us— not by works of righteousness that we had done, but according to His mercy,
through the washing of regeneration and renewal by the Holy Spirit.
6 He poured out this Spirit on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
7 so that having been justified by His grace, we may become heirs with the hope of eternal life.

Hi Oz,

I tend to agree with Arminius here. A good example can be found in ~

1 Thessalonians 1
4 For we know, brothers and sisters loved by God, that he has chosen you, 5 because our gospel came to you not simply with words but also with power, with the Holy Spirit and deep conviction. You know how we lived among you for your sake. 6 You became imitators of us and of the Lord, for you welcomed the message in the midst of severe suffering with the joy given by the Holy Spirit.

1 Corinthians 2 says ~
2 When I came to you, brothers, announcing the testimony of God to you, I did not come with brilliance of speech or wisdom. 2 For I didn’t think it was a good idea to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified. 3 I came to you in weakness, in fear, and in much trembling. 4 My speech and my proclamation were not with persuasive words of wisdom but with a powerful demonstration by the Spirit, 5 so that your faith might not be based on men’s wisdom but on God’s power

I believe that preaching the Good News [The Gospel of Salvation] and the presence of the Holy Spirit in the believer, work together divinely in the heart of the hearer which enables him/her to respond accordingly. JMHO

Bless ya!

Angelina,

I am particularly thinking of Scriptures where Jesus made these statements:

• John 6:37 (ESV), 'All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out'.
• John 6:44 (ESV), 'No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day', and
• John 6:65 (ESV), 'And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father”'.

This was not only Arminius's view. Here is Calvin's understanding of John 6:44:

44.No man can come to me, unless the Father, who hath sent me, draw him. He does not merely accuse them of wickedness, but likewise reminds them, that it is a peculiar gift of God to embrace the doctrine which is exhibited by him; which he does, that their unbelief may not disturb weak minds. For many are so foolish that, in the things of God, they depend on the opinions of men; in consequence of which, they entertain suspicions about the Gospel, as soon as they see that it is not received by the world. Unbelievers, on the other hand, flattering themselves in their obstinacy, have the hardihood to condemn the Gospel because it does not please them. On the contrary, therefore, Christ declares that the doctrine of the Gospel, though it is preached to all without exception, cannot be embraced by all, but that a new understanding and a new perception are requisite; and, therefore, that faith does not depend on the will of men, but that it is God who gives it.
Unless the Father draw him. To come to Christ being here used metaphorically for believing, the Evangelist, in order to carry out the metaphor in the apposite clause, says that those persons are drawn whose understandings God enlightens, and whose hearts he bends and forms to the obedience of Christ. The statement amounts to this, that we ought not to wonder if many refuse to embrace the Gospel; because no man will ever of himself be able to come to Christ, but God must first approach him by his Spirit; and hence it follows that all are not drawn, but that God bestows this grace on those whom he has elected. True, indeed, as to the kind of drawing, it is not violent, so as to compel men by external force; but still it is a powerful impulse of the Holy Spirit, which makes men willing who formerly were unwilling and reluctant. It is a false and profane assertion, therefore, that none are drawn but those who are willing to be drawn, (153) as if man made himself obedient to God by his own efforts; for the willingness with which men follow God is what they already have from himself, who has formed their hearts to obey him (Calvin's commentary on John 6, StudyLight.org)

Oz

 

[StanJ]

Hey Stan, No this is def not all the Holy Spirit does however, I thought we were discussing your comments from post #5 and you have included the Holy Spirit in post #25.
Christ has saved us through his redeeming work on the cross and paid the penalty for our sins. One day we will be fully redeemed but at present we are still in this fleshly tent. The Holy Spirit was given to us as a guarantor until that day arrives. The inheritance we have is eternal life with Christ.
Titus 3
4 But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared,5 He saved us— not by works of righteousness that we had done, but according to His mercy,
through the washing of regeneration and renewal by the Holy Spirit.6 He poured out this Spirit on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior,7 so that having been justified by His grace, we may become heirs with the hope of eternal life.

Actually I was adding to the list of what you had initially posted. IMHO, the Holy Spirit is an integral part of the salvation process. Not that he saves but that as John the Baptist said, we are baptized in Him to receive power. Paul says in 2 Cor 1: 21 - 22, that God seals us by giving us the Holy Spirit, so my question is what or who seals us? Is it having Jesus as our Savior that seals us or does God seal us once we accept Jesus as our Savior or does the Holy Spirit seal us once we are baptised in Him? If it is the latter, then are only those that receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit sealed? I trust you see where I'm going with this?

 

[Angelina]

Angelina,

I am particularly thinking of Scriptures where Jesus made these statements:

• John 6:37 (ESV), 'All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out'.
• John 6:44 (ESV), 'No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day', and
• John 6:65 (ESV), 'And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father”'.

This was not only Arminius's view. Here is Calvin's understanding of John 6:44:

Oz

Well it kinda reminds me of which came first, the chicken or the egg. ~ The bible says that "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God". Romans 3: 22, 23, 24. ~ So we have all began in the same position, as sinners. We know that the gospel will be preached to all nations. Matthew 24:14, Mark 13:10, Luke 24:46-47, 1 Timothy 3:16 ~ but not all will receive it

John 3 says ~

3 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man. 14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15 that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him."
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. 19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. 21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.

Bless ya!

 

[OzSpen]

Well it kinda reminds me of which came first, the chicken or the egg. ~ The bible says that "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God". Romans 3: 22, 23, 24. ~ So we have all began in the same position, as sinners. We know that the gospel will be preached to all nations. Matthew 24:14, Mark 13:10, Luke 24:46-47, 1 Timothy 3:16 ~ but not all will receive it

Angelina,

In my understanding, it is much clearer than that.The verses I gave in John 6:37, 44, 65 make it clear that unless the Father draws a person, there will will no salvation. There will be no 'egg' of salvation without the heavenly Father drawing a person to salvation.

Oz

 

[StanJ]

In my understanding, it is much clearer than that.The verses I gave in John 6:37, 44, 65 make it clear that unless the Father draws a person, there will will no salvation. There will be no 'egg' of salvation without the heavenly Father drawing a person to salvation.

So do you advocate that God does NOT draw everyone, despite 2 Peter 3:9?

 

[lforrest]

So do you advocate that God does NOT draw everyone, despite 2 Peter 3:9?

Enter "Freed will." God does not draw everyone. For many are invited, but few are chosen.

Why the word chosen? I think destined would be a better fit. I suppose the one making the destinies can use the word chosen.

 

[StanJ]

Enter "Freed will." God does not draw everyone. For many are invited, but few are chosen.
Why the word chosen? I think destined would be a better fit. I suppose the one making the destinies can use the word chosen.

Sorry, that is taking Matthew 22 out of context. Jesus said that God draws us but in Matthew 22 it's the King's servants that are doing the calling. This is obviously more a description of those who respond to the gospel as opposed to who God is drawing. In any event it does indeed show that we have FREE will as opposed to freed will.
Also you failed to deal with the scripture I gave in 2 Peter 3:9.

 

[lforrest]

Sorry, that is taking Matthew 22 out of context. Jesus said that God draws us but in Matthew 22 it's the King's servants that are doing the calling. This is obviously more a description of those who respond to the gospel as opposed to who God is drawing. In any event it does indeed show that we have FREE will as opposed to freed will.
Also you failed to deal with the scripture I gave in 2 Peter 3:9.

The people responding to the gospel and those who God is calling are one and the same.

2 Peter 3:9 doesn't deal with God drawing, but with inviting. The invitation is the result of God's desire that none should perish.

 

[brakelite]

Whether drawing, calling, electing...I think we get too hung up on these words, and the various nuances that people attach to them, as if we need to get a perfect handle on them to understand God. The word that I believe encapsulates God's overall attitude to man, whether sinner or saint, is "with". God wants to be with us. When Adam and Eve sinned, God didn't walk away, He walked toward them. He knew what they had done, yet nothing changed, I repeat nothing changed in God's attitude toward Adam and Eve. What changed was their attitude toward Him. That is what sin does. It causes a separation. But that separation is not because God turns His back or stays aloof from sinners or takes a vacation until He feels as if time and chastisement has run their course, no. It is sinners who run away and hide from God. It is our minds that are changed by sin...we begin to doubt God's love...we doubt His grace and mercy...we fear His punishing wrath...and its all wrong.
God does not change His attitude toward sinners one iota. His love is utterly and completely unconditional. He wants our company every day, every hour of every day, if we would let Him.
And that is where humility comes in. Yes, we have sinned. Yes, we are guilty. But we have a choice. Either we allow our pride to dominate our thinking and think that we must 'improve' ourselves, or do some good deeds, or wait until our consciences no longer condemn us because time dulls the acuteness of guilt....or....we can humble ourselves before God, confess our sin, and as scripture says. He is faithful and just to forgive us our sin and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. And that my friends is 70X 7 times forgiveness if necessary.
What was God's request to Moses? "Make me a tabernacle that I might be with them". God sent His only Son to die that whosoever believes in Him, may have eternal life. The offer of life is open. I find repugnant the extreme Calvinist proposition that some are predetermined to suffer in hell (so it is thought) for all eternity as if in some way this brings glory to God.
God does not need us, He wants us. 1Co 3:9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God’s husbandry, ye are God’s building.
2Co 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
God by His omnipresent Spirit is working in the world to bring people to Himself, but it is through us that He has chosen to do this. Through the preaching of the gospel, ("If I be lifted up I will draw all men unto Me")....through personal witness and our testimony we draw people to their Savior....I am convinced that it is only by obstinate and determined refusal to be drawn and impressed by the promptings of the Spirit that anyone is finally lost. Sadly, this will be a vast multitude entering in by the wide gate...but not one will be so doing without having been invited...they all will be without excuse. In the final analysis, it is not sin that condemns sinners to their destiny, it is the refusal of the offer of salvation, their unbelief in God's love.
And sadly, much of the blame can be placed upon the church for people's misapprehension regards the character of God. That would be where I depart from a number of foundational doctrines that are common among the majority of Christian churches, eternal torment being the chief.

 

[StanJ]

The people responding to the gospel and those who God is calling are one and the same.

2 Peter 3:9 doesn't deal with God drawing, but with inviting. The invitation is the result of God's desire that none should perish.

How can they be the same? One shows men/servants inviting people in and the other is about God drawing people to Jesus. Not sure how you can say they're the same?

Actually 2 Peter 3:9 deals with men who are already saved and questioning the fact that Jesus is not returning soon enough for their liking. The fact is if God is not willing that any should perish then God must be drawing all men to Jesus. Romans 8:28 - 30 shows us that all who confess Jesus as Savior are called.
Two different issues here, but the point is, that given your interpolation of Matthew 22, the only ones ever chosen where the Apostles that Jesus named himself. In addition to that one of those chosen actually betrayed him, so how does that work?